This article was written for the Unz Review.
By now most of you have heard the latest bad news of out Syria: on June 18th a US F/A-18E Super Hornet (1999) used a AIM-120 AMRAAM (1991) to shoot down a Syrian Air Force Su-22 (1970). Two days later, June 20th, a US F-15E Strike Eagle shot down an Iranian IRGC Shahed 129 drone. The excuse used each time was that there was a threat to US and US supported forces. The reality is, of course, that the US are simply trying to stop the advance of the Syrian army. This was thus a typical American “show of force”. Except that, of course, shooting a 47 year old Soviet era Su-22 fighter-bomber is hardly an impressive feat. Neither is shooting a unmanned drone. There is a pattern here, however, and that pattern is that all US actions so far have been solely for show: the basically failed bombing of the Syria military airbase, the bombing of the Syrian army column, the shooting down of the Syrian fighter-bomber and of the Iranian drone – all these actions have no real military value. They do, however, have a provocative value as each time all the eyes turn to Russia to see if the Russians will respond or not.
Russia did respond this time again, but in a very ambiguous and misunderstood manner. The Russians announced, amongst other measure that from now on “any airborne objects, including aircraft and unmanned vehicles of the [US-led] international coalition, located to the west of the Euphrates River, will be tracked by Russian ground and air defense forces as air targets” which I reported as “Russian MoD declares it will shoot down any aircraft flying west of the Euphrates river”. While I gave the exact Russian quote, I did not explain why I paraphrased the Russian words the way I did. Now is a good time to explain this.
First, here is the exact original Russian text:
«В районах выполнения боевых задач российской авиацией в небе Сирии любые воздушные объекты, включая самолёты и беспилотные аппараты международной коалиции, обнаруженные западнее реки Евфрат, будут приниматься на сопровождение российскими наземными и воздушными средствами противовоздушной обороны в качестве воздушных целей»
A literal translation would be:
“In areas of the combat missions of Russian aviation in the skies of Syria any airborne objects, including aircraft and unmanned aerial vehicle of the international coalition discovered to the West of the Euphrates river, will be tracked by Russian ground based an airborne assets as air targets”
So what does this exactly mean in technical-military terms?
A quick look inside a US fighter’s cockpit
When an F/A-18 flies over Syria the on-board emission detectors (called radar warning receivers or RWR) inform the pilot of the kind of radar signals the aircraft is detecting. Over Syria that means that the pilot would see a lot of search radars looking in all directions trying to get a complete picture of what is happening in the Syrian skies. The US pilot will be informed that a certain number of Syrian S-300 and Russian S-400 batteries are scanning the skies and most probably see him. So far so good. If there are deconfliction zones or any type of bilateral agreements to warn each other about planned sorties then that kind of radar emissions are no big deal. Likewise US radars (ground, sea or air based) are also scanning the skies and “seeing” the Russian Aerospace Forces’ aircraft on their radars and the Russians know that. In this situation neither side is treating anybody as “air targets”. When a decision is made to treat an object as an “air target” a completely different type of radar signal is used and a much narrower energy beam is directed at the target which can now be tracked and engaged. The pilot is, of course, immediately informed of this. At this point the pilot is in a very uncomfortable position: he knows that he is being tracked, but he has no way of knowing if a missile has already been launched against him or not. Depending on a number of factors, an AWACS might be able to detect a missile launch, but this might not be enough and it might also be too late.
The kind of missiles fired by S-300/S-400 batteries are extremely fast, over 4’000mph (four thousand miles per hour) which means that a missile launched as far away as 120 miles will reach you in 2 minutes or that a missile launched 30 miles away will reach you in 30 seconds. And just to make things worse, the S-300 can use a special radar mode called “track via missile” where the radar emits a pulse towards the target whose reflection is then received not by the ground based radar, but by the rapidly approaching missile itself, which then sends its reading back to the ground radar which then sends guidance corrections back to the missile. Why is that bad for the aircraft? Because there is no way to tell from the emissions whether a missile has been launched and is already approaching at over 4’000mph or not. The S-300 and S-400 also have other modes, including the Seeker Aided Ground Guidance (SAGG) where the missile also computes a guidance solution (not just the ground radar) and then the two are compared and a Home On Jam (HOJ) mode when the jammed missile then homes directly on the source of the jamming (such as an onboard jamming pod). Furthermore, there are other radar modes available such as the Ground Aided Inertial (GAI) which guides the missile in the immediate proximity of the target where the missile switches on its own radar just before hitting the target. Finally, there is some pretty good evidence that the Russians have perfected a complex datalink system which allows them to fuse into one all the signals they acquire from their missiles, airborne aircraft (fighter, interceptor or AWACS) and ground radars and that means that, in theory, if a US aircraft is outside the flight envelope (reach) of the ground based missiles the signals acquired by the ground base radars could be used to fire an air-to-air missile at the US aircraft (we know that their MiG-31s are capable of such engagements, so I don’t see why their much more recent Su-30/Su-35 could not). This would serve to further complicate the situational awareness of the pilot as a missile could be coming from literally any direction. At this point the only logical reaction would be for the US pilot to inform his commanders and get out, fast. Sure, in theory, he could simply continue his mission, but that would be very hard, especially if he suspects that the Syrians might have other, mobile, air defense on the way to, or near, his intended target.
Just try to imagine this: you are flying, in total illegality, over hostile territory and preparing to strike a target when suddenly your radar warning receiver goes off and tells you “you got 30 seconds or (much?) less to decide whether there is a 300lbs (150kg) warhead coming at you at 4000mph (6400kmh) or not”. How would you feel if it was you sitting in that cockpit? Would you still be thinking about executing your planned attack?
The normal US strategy is to achieve what is called “air superiority/supremacy” by completely suppressing enemy air defenses and taking control of the skies. If I am not mistaken, the last time the US fighters operated in a meaningfully contested air space was in Vietnam…
By the way, these technologies are not uniquely Russian, they are well known in the West, for example the US Patriot SAM also uses TVM, but the Russians have very nicely integrated them into one formidable air defense system.
The bottom line is this: once the US aircraft is “treated like a target” he has no way of knowing if the Syrians, or the Russians, are just being cheeky or whether has has seconds left to live. Put differently, “treating like a target” is tantamount to somebody putting a gun to your head and letting you guess if/when he will pull the trigger.
So yes, the Russian statement most definitely was a “threat to shoot down”!
Next, a look into the Russian side of the equation
To understand why the Russians used the words “threat like an air target” rather than “will shoot down” you need to remember that Russia is still the weaker party here. There is nothing worse than not delivering on a threat. If the Russians had said “we will shoot down” and then had not done so, they would have made an empty threat. Instead, they said “will treat as an air target” because that leaves them an “out” should they decided not to pull the trigger. However, for the US Navy or Air Force pilot, these considerations are all irrelevant once his detectors report to him that he is being “painted” with the beam of an engagement radar!
So what the Russians did is to greatly unnerve the US crews without actually having to shoot down anybody. It is not a coincidence that the Americans almost immediately stop flying West of the Euphrates river while the Australians officially decided to bow out from any further air sorties.
It cannot be overemphasized that the very last thing Russia needs is to shoot down a US aircraft over Syria which is exactly what some elements of the Pentagon seem to want. Not only is Russia the weaker side in this conflict, but the Russians also understand the wider political consequences of what would happen if they took the dramatic step to shoot down a US aircraft: a dream come true for the Neocons and a disaster for everybody else.
A quick look from the US Neoconistan and the quest for a “tepid war”
The dynamic in Syria is not fundamentally different from the dynamic in the Ukraine: the Neocons know that they have failed to achieve their primary objective: to control the entire country. They also know that their various related financial schemes have collapsed. Finally, they are fully aware that they owe this defeat to Russia and, especially, to Vladimir Putin. So they fell back on plan B. Plan B is almost as good as Plan A (full control) because Plan B has much wider consequences. Plan B is also very simple: trigger a major crisis with Russia but stay short from a full-scale war. Ideally, Plan B should revolve around a “firm” “reaction” to the Russian “aggression” and a “defense” of the US “allies” in the region. In practical terms this simply means: get the Russians to openly send forces into Novorussia or get the Russians to take military actions against the US or its allies in Syria. Once you get this you can easily see that the latest us attacks in Syria have a minor local purpose – to scare or slow down the Syrians- and a major global purpose – to bait the Russians into using forces against the US or an ally. It bears repeating here that what the Neocons really want is what I call a “tepid” war with Russia: an escalation of tensions to levels even not seen in the Cold War, but not a full-scale “hot” WWIII either. A tepid war would finally re-grant NATO at least some kind of purpose (to protect “our European friends and allies” from the “Russian threat”): the already terminally spineless EU politicians would all be brought into an even more advanced state of subservience, the military budgets would go even higher and Trump would be able to say that he made “America” “great” again. And, who knows, maybe the Russian people would *finally* rise against Putin, you never know! (They wouldn’t – but the Neocons have never been deterred from their goofy theories by such minor and altogether irrelevant things as facts or logic).
[Sidebar: I noticed this time again that each time the US tries to bait Russia into some kind of harsh reaction and Russia declines to take the bait, this triggers in immediate surge into the number of comments which vehemently complain that Russia is acting like a pussy, that Putin is a fake, that he is “in cahoots” with the US and/or Israel and that the Russians are weak or that they have “sold out”. I am getting a sense that we are dealing with paid US PSYOP operatives whose mission is to use the social media to try to put the Kremlin under pressure with these endless accusations of weakness and selling-out. Since I have no interest in rewarding these folks in any way, I mostly send their recriminations where they belong: to the trash]
Does the Russian strategy work?
To reply to this, don’t look at what the Russians do or do not do in the immediate aftermath of a US provocation. Take a higher level look and just see what happens in the mid to long term. Just like in a game of chess, taking the Gambit is not always the correct strategy.
I submit that to evaluate whether Putin’s policies are effective or not, to see whether he has “sold out” or “caved in” you need to, for example, look at the situation in Syria (or the Ukraine, for that matter) as it was 2 years ago and then compare with what it is today. Or, alternatively, look at the situation as it is today and come back to re-visit it in 6 months.
One huge difference between the western culture and the way the Russians (or the Chinese for that matter) look at geostrategy is that westerners always look at everything in the short term and tactical level. This is basically the single main reason why both Napoleon and Hitler lost their wars against Russia: an almost exclusive focus on the short term and tactical. In contrast, the Russians are the undisputed masters of operational art (in a purely military sense) and, just like the Chinese, they tend to always keep their eyes on the long-term horizon. Just look at the Turkish downing of a Russian Su-24: everybody bemoaned the lack of “forceful” reaction from Moscow. And then, six months later – what do we have? Exactly.
The modern western culture is centered on various forms of instant gratification, and that is also true for geopolitics. If the other guy does something, western leaders always deliver a “firm” response. They like to “send messages” and they firmly believe that doing something, no matter how symbolic, is better than even the *appearance* of doing nothing. As for the appearance of doing nothing, it is universally interpreted as a sign of weakness. Russians don’t think that way. They don’t care about instant gratification, they care only about one thing: victory. And if that means to look weak, that is fine. From a Russian perspective, sending “messages” or taking symbolic actions (like all 4 of the recent US attacks in Syria) are not signs of strength, but signs of weakness. Generally, the Russians don’t like to use force which they consider inherently dangerous. But when they do, they never threaten or warn, they take immediate and pragmatic (non-symbolic) action which gets them closer to a specific goal.
Conclusion
The Russian reaction to the latest US attack on Syria was not designed to maximize the approval of the many Internet armchair strategists. It was designed to maximize the discomfort of the US lead “coalition” in Syria while minimizing the risks for Russia. It is precisely by using an ambiguous language which civilians would interpret in one way, and military personnel in another, that the Russians introduced a very disruptive element of unpredictability into the planning of US air operations in Syria.
The Russians are not without they own faults and bad habits and they make mistakes (recognizing the Ukronazi junta in Kiev after the coup was probably such a mistake), but it is important to differentiate between their real weaknesses and mistakes and their very carefully designed strategies. Just because they don’t act in the way their putative “supporters” in the West would does not mean that they have “caved in”, “blinked first” or any other such nonsense. The first step towards understanding how the Russians function is to stop expecting that they would act just like Americans would.
The Saker
PS: by the way, the Syrian pilot shot down made it out alive. Here is a photo of him following his rescue by Syrian special forces:
UPDATE: I am getting several messages telling me that the pilot has not been rescued by government forces but that he is being held prisoner by the “Syrian Democratic Forces“. Caveat emptor, as always.
Thank you, Saker!
Matter need to be purified.
The best option so far is a nuclear war.
Yes, obliterate all lives on this planet, let Him create elsewhere whatever He want.
So it mote be !
if He wants He would do it Himself.
do not think our missiles are more powerful then Him and you would not be trying to boss Him around
if you do not listen to God when he whispers to you softly then, in time, He throws a rock, so to say…
And despite all arguments explained by the Saker in this article, Russian/Syrian S-400 and S-300 systems Are Still Incapable to deter IDF/AF’s incursions into Syrian territories…a clear evidence that Israel has already found the “Achiles heel” of those air defence systems…end of story.
IDF Video, JUNE 24, 2017
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8I2nxcsmio
Please refrain from using so many capitalised words – its shouting. Saker moderation policy – amended once. Mod
The day Russia or Syria shoots down an Israeli or US / coalition plane, US invasion begins and world war.
What do you not understand from watching and reading about the US’s / Anglo’s phony pretexts for war these last 100 years?
Their direct threat of a psychopathic response – financial, political or military – to legitimate acts of self defense from sovereign states is precisely how the US expands it empire and maintains servility in existing vassals.
Read the Russian & Israeli media.
Russia and Israel portray each other as “best allies” in both countries.
+/- 20% of Israeli’s speak Russian.
The Russian naval base in Syria is accepted by the Israeli’s, but, the Iranians are not going to be tolerated..
When Iran ships heavy weapons in the IAF bombs.
The vaunted Russian air defense did not fire.
The Iranians changed the friend/foe transponder codes on their air defense and did not inform the Russians.
When the IAF returned the Iranian AD units fired but not the Russian.
It was reported some Iranian units briefly fired on Russian units before cooler heads prevailed.
All is not well at the oasis.
Hi Saker,
Thank you for the great article. I agree on the observations (including the increase in paid US PSYOP operatives).
In regard to your update here is the most up to date info I could find on the pilot which says he hasn’t been rescued though the second link from Sputnik News said he was rescued (also below):
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/syria-family-pilot-targeted-us-led-coalition-strike-speak/
&
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201706201054782289-syria-soldiers-rescue-pilot/
So there seems to be mixed stories on this….I am sure the truth will eventually come out. I pray he is safe.
Hi Saker, there are rumors from various sources floating around on the internet (originating from a few Twitter accounts) suggesting that Russia has downed a EQ-4 global hawk over the Mediterranean sea with an S300. There has been nothing from mainstream media outlets to confirm this story, but who knows the DOD may want to keep a lid on it for various reasons. Do you give these reports any credence?
Thanks
If you were planning this:
Russian warships fire Kalibr cruise missiles, destroy IS arms depots in Syria
“Russia informed the commands of Turkey and Israel timely about the launches of cruise missiles via channels of communication”
More:
http://tass.com/defense/952980
Then the prelim “removal” of the reconnaissance EQ-4 global hawk “makes sense”.
1/ the RF know the US are providing intel to ISUS; so no drone, no advance warning
2/ a nice “asymmetric” response.
3/ provides some “reassurance” to the US that the RF is not bluffing.
Re the conjecture of the downing of the drone.
There was a similar internet “buzz” back in September 2016, after the US war crime of bombing the Syrian army base at Deir Ezzor; killing 60 (to facilitate a ISIS attack on the Syrian position).
The “buzz” was that the RF responded with 3 Kalibre missiles, launched from the Caspian Sea, which struck a secret intel and command center operating /illegally!/ within Syria.
Purportedly the strike killed 40-odd US-UK-Israelie “intel”.
Remember Samatha Power performing like a crazed banshee at the UN?
The performance was supposedly a reaction to the allegation the Russians had attacked a humanitarian convoy.? which made zero sense, given the tonnes of RF aid pouring into Aleppo at the time (and still)
Some convincing arguments were made that what had really got the US stomping and steaming crazy was the Kalibre strike.
The convoy was a false flag to cover their outrage.
I don’t think the Kalibre strike was ever confirmed or denied by either side.
This has a similar “vibe” to it. IM(very)HO.
There is guess work and guess work – yours makes 100%, perfect sense. :-)
Though no confirmation so far from Pentagon,,,it could be true. The Russians have the habit of keeping quite when they shoot “something” of the americans.
According to Steven Ben-Nun at Israeli News Live it was a bunker busting tactical nuke.
Steven is a good guy – not too sure about the prophecy angle though!
At the time there were frantic military goings on as reported by Janey at GLP.
By the way, a Global Hawk costs over $200 million each. I don’t know what an S-300 missile costs, but I doubt it’s anywhere near that much. So the tradeoff is in Russia’s favour.
Hi Cyril
One corporation in the US charges another 200 million for a Global Hawk. The actual price is peanuts. And the 200 million just switch hands within the same system. 200 million is just a tag. The US just prints money. Its central bank runs all banks of the world the Russian central bank included. So much for Russia downing a plastic toy called a Global hawk. Let Russia try nationalizing its central bank. Till then Russia is a slave in spite of its rhetoric and stance.
You’re right, the actual price is peanuts. But the work required to produce one such drone is not. Is it an article that you can mass produce for cheap or is fabrication and testing expensive?
As explained by a somewhat controversial former German chancellor (Rede vor den Arbeitern der Borsig-Werke), it’s neither money nor gold that matters – it’s only the work that you’re able to do.
On the same day, a Global Hawk was reported in California as having crashed. Coincidence or ambiguous reporting?
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/11755/us-air-force-global-hawk-drone-crashes-in-california
Thanks for mentioning this. My concern over the level of supposed “aircraft crashes” here in the States has reached well into the red zone a long time ago, and by categorizing the event as “military” it precludes others from going anywhere near the crash site to find out what the real story was. ………
The Russians informed Israel and Turkey of the Kaliber missile launches, so no point in shooting down an EQ 4 above the Mediterranean to hide the launches. And in international airspace even ??
It would be a nice way to prove they (Russians) are not bluffing – meaning the ‘painting’ of enemy targets – and at the same time handing the AngloZionists a ‘plausible denial’. The ‘muricans tries to call the Russians perceived (by the United Snakes), but it turns out that the Russkies wasn’t bluffing -their multi-million $$ drone was blown out of the sky! Since there is very little evidence or confirmation, it might have been over Syria. This means that the Russians can now retrieve the wreck of the drone, and (rather than replicate it) finds it weaknesses!
Guess who didnt get a postcard beforehand?
http://tass.com/defense/952980
Thank You for your as usual spot on analysis, Saker, hope you and your family are well!
Just wondering if the Syrian statement a while ago to shoot down not just target any Israeli incursions eg over Golan area is still valid, substantive etc….as Russia did not seem to comment on that much if I remember correctly?
Don’t worry Schlomo, (or maybe you should). Syria will respond but now you have not only Hezbollah, who you lost to in 2006, in SYRIA but Iran and Iranian and Iraqi shia militias as well heavily entrenched in the region, too close to comfort.
Russia seems fine with that as it balances out things in the region. They will be stronger and the next war will be fought in occupied Palestine, for the benefit of all religions, races and ethnicities. not just “jews”.
Facing that dilemma, “israelis” will eventually go back to Poland and Lithuania
If they’d all go back where they came from and leave Palestine to the Palestinians the world would be a better place, to be sure. Einstein didn’t like the idea of Israhell either and further felt that they should live/work where they live not move it all to Israhell …
As always, an extremely interesting and informative analysis. Thank you very for all your work.
Thanks for this excellent analysis, Saker.
I can imagine that a pilot is sh****ng his pants when all radar alarms are yelling in his ears…
Additionally, I want to give attention to a very interesting analysis of Pepe Escobar on ISIS movements. That these mercenaries popped up in the Philippines was clear, Duterte must be punished because he refuses to dance for the Empire. But their fighting into the Hindu Kush was somewhat hazy to me at first.
Pepe Escobar explains that they are already positioning to sabotage the Chinese New Silk Road: http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/chaos-afghanistan-mortal-threat-eurasian-integration/ri20177
My guess is that he is correctly connecting the dots. That means imho also, that the movements between Iraq and Syria might be far from over…
“Since 2002 Washington has spent a mind-boggling US$780 billion on its (unfinished) Operation Enduring Freedom. It has absolutely nothing to show for it – apart from over 100,000 dead Afghans.” (P. Escobar)
Well apart from this nice little ‘budget’ sideline …
“At current levels, world heroin consumption (340 tons) and seizures represent an annual flow of 430-450 tons of heroin into the global heroin market. Of that total, opium from Myanmar and the Lao People’s Democratic Republic yields some 50 tons, while the rest, some 380 tons of heroin and morphine, is produced exclusively from Afghan opium. While approximately 5 tons are consumed and seized in Afghanistan, the remaining bulk of 375 tons is trafficked worldwide via routes flowing into and through the countries neighbouring Afghanistan.
The Balkan and northern routes are the main heroin trafficking corridors linking Afghanistan to the huge markets of the Russian Federation and Western Europe. The Balkan route traverses the Islamic Republic of Iran (often via Pakistan), Turkey, Greece and Bulgaria across South-East Europe to the Western European market, with an annual market value of some $20 billion. The northern route runs mainly through Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan (or Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan) to Kazakhstan and the Russian Federation. The size of that market is estimated to total $13 billion per year.” (UNODC World Drug Report 2010)
Whats the cia using for an air amerca these days? According to Kay Griggs the pentagram is using TAC for us domestic consumption.
Opiod use in us is at record highs.
So, after the US army reopened the poppy fields, the US taxpayer has spent $780 billion holding down Afghanistan, while some party or parties unknown in the CIA and/or elsewhere in the US administration have sold something like $500 billion worth of opium since 2002? A brilliant example of Socialize the costs and Privatize the profits.
Saker, excellent analysis and I especially liked your concluding paragraph; spot on.
Quote: “It cannot be overemphasized that the very last thing Russia needs is to shoot down a US aircraft over Syria which is exactly what some elements of the Pentagon seem to want. Not only is Russia the weaker side in this conflict, but the Russians also understand the wider political consequences of what would happen if they took the dramatic step to shoot down a US aircraft: a dream come true for the Neocons and a disaster for everybody else.”
Sorry, but that’s obviously nonsense. If there are those powerful actors in the USA who wants a conflict, then these actors don’t sit there crying “why aren’t those pesky russians not shooting down our stuff??”. They own the media, they can fabricate anything they want (and have done so in the past), and a few weeks later nobody cares anymore about the fabrication (they’ll give interviews telling proudly how they crafted it, and get applauded for the “sacrifices they did, to defend the US”). They need the Russians to do something, in order to start something which would a “disaster for everybody else”? Obviously they don’t.
There is just the basic fact that the US commits mass murdering as usual, and Russia “tolerates” this as usual, and the article tries to rationalise this.
At some point in the future, Russia and China have to stand up (together). This I consider an absolute truth. Sure, the devil is in the details …
“Sure, the devil is in the details”
That’s kinda the whole point. Escalation dominance. And in a truly hot conflict over Syria, the US has escalation dominance, not Russia. If things go south, they have exponentially more hardware to throw into the fight, from Iraq to Incirlik to al-Udeid to Persian gulf aircraft carriers, etc. It’s simple math, don’t get into a fight in which you are out gunned.
This is the same reason an attack against Iran is unlikely, Tehran has escalation dominance in their home theater. Even with all the US hardware, the Iranians have a plethora of hard and soft targets to retaliate against. Check out the Millennium War Games exercise carried out by the US in which their Persian gulf fleet had to be “re-floated” and Iranian air defenses moved inland in order for the “correct” side to win.
As for neo-cons “owning” the media, sure they do, but not like they used to. You honestly don’t think they’re actively trying to do just that? White Helmets? Brave Ukrainians of Azov? It’s not for lack of trying that they haven’t provoked all out conflict, it’s rather these provocations don’t get the necessary traction. Too many people aren’t buying it. Which is why they need a “slam dunk” response from Russia, for instance the downing of a US fighter jet “valiantly fighting terror over Syria”.
The thing is, Russia is winning in Syria, even if it isn’t the blow out some are looking for. So why fix what isn’t broken?
“It’s simple math, don’t get into a fight in which you are out gunned.” Reminds this old timer of Kennedy’s famous bean-and-body-bag counter, Robert MacNamara. To which simple (and simple minded) arithmetic Ho Chi Min already had the answer from his victory over the French who likewise out gunned the Vietnamese: “We kill a few of you. Then you kill a lot of us. And then we win.”
Buddy, the only ones being fooled by Western corporate and state media are the tube loving idiots who’ll do as told anyhow. But getting other non Western countries along for a war against Russia you’ll need something real imho.
Where your remark that Russia and China are not standing is beyond me. Syria would have failed a long time ago my friend without Russia and Iran. China is slowly eating the West alive in economic sense if you haven’t noticed.
@ Oliver K
“At some point in the future, Russia and China have to stand up (together). This I consider an absolute truth. ”
The point is to try to win without getting in a fight.
It is remarkable how many worlds apart the US (and nations subsumed by their media) myth narrative differs from the rest of the world and all history. All their stories, films, historical references, including winning the the Founding Fathers, wild west, the gold rush, slavery, Independence, its involvement in WW’s, the Lone Ranger, Superman, Jack Reacher and all the rest – are predicated on the superiority of force. There is no distinguishing between the good man and the bad man. The good man has only better and more kit and more skills. Your argument smacks of this.
Everywhere else, national mythology lauds the victory of the weak over the great, of victory against great odds. Ultimately, that sanctity and goodness always prevails.
America will ultimately fail, and fail in a big war of its own starting because it does not see that the strongest frequently have only temporary success, particularly if they are motivated by evil or are immoral or unjust.
Hi Saker! a brilliant, detailed explanation indeed. Thank you or clarifying it out.
Hi Saker:
I read your posts often and find them very informative. Thank you. I do have a question about the “ambiguous” Russian response to the US shooting down a Syrian Gov. jet. They said, they’d treat “as targets” anything flying “west of the Euphrates”, why not both east and west, in essence all over Syrian air space? Does this seem to indicate some sort of back door agreement with the US plan to partition Syria, create a Kurdistan in what should be Syria?
I’m guessing here, but it seems the US is aiding Syria’s aims when the SDF actually drives ISIS south and east. So, why shoot down the useful idiot’s planes?
If the US wants to attack ISIA targets in a region where the SAA won’t be for a while, great! But they can’t use that as a cover for attacking SAA.
The general rule in strategy apropos such situation is stated s “when you see your enemies on both sides of a barricade it is not your barricade”.
Thank you very much for the information about the Syrian pilot. I was concerned about him.
Would it be reasonable to assume that any S300/400 response would be on its way the moment a US plane was observed attacking a Syrian/Russian target — i.e., the ‘hit’ would be on its return ‘post payload’ journey?
I think that does make sense, you prepare the grounds to respond. They delay the response as much as possible but I don’t they (RF) will hesitate in that case. What I’m equally unsure is whether Yankees are willing to risk and provoke that, I’m afraid that they might..
@ Oliver K on June 23, 2017 · at 10:01 am UTC
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These things are like a merry go round. The US poking, killing, being outrageus, provocative, and the Russians expressing disappointment. I belive it can go on and on for a long time. Saker may be right that *some* elements in Washington might salivate at the prospect of a Russian reaction that actually lets everyone know they’ve had enough. But at the same time, if this means the Russian reaction must always be one of extreme, restraint, tact and appeasement, going out of their way not to confront the totally illegal US *invaders* of Syrian territory, then it is hard to see how they can prevent the US from gradually getting control of more and more of Syria and imposing its dismemberment. The following is from a few weeks ago, but it seems to be the default positon Russia always goes back to after every US affront. They keep proposing “de-escalation zones” and separation of the “moderate opposition” from the bad opposition (adopting US lingo) and lamenting that previous efforts in this direction have “brought no fruit”. It is the same thing over and over and over. It does get old.
Russia proposes four “de-escalation zones” in Syria to restart stalled peace process
https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-proposes-four-de-escalation-zones-syria-restart-stalled-peace-process/
X draws up his fist, I don’t put up mine; X takes a step forward, I take a step back; then X draws out his gun as well, I simply appeal for restraint telling X that we are partners after all; then X agrees to a ceasefire on conditions laid down by X, I cave in. Then this merry-go-around starts all over again. And all the time X is yelling at me to stop being aggressive.
So, dear friends, on whom will you bet your money? Will there really be a fight or are the onlookers simply being milked for money and more money? Or is the fight real but I am simply refusing to put up a fight, retreating closer and closer to the ropes. Will the ropes provide me a spring from which to launch a strong hit or will I be tossed out of the ring? My recent record shows being tossed out of the ring several times but, going back in the past, it also shows some seriously successful hit-backs from the ropes. Now place your bets.
Russia is not interested in Syria in the way the west is.
It is not defending an aligned territory. It is defending Russia.
It is not retreating or appeasing, and it does not necessarily oppose the dismemberment of Syria and handing bits to Israel, so long as doing so does compromise Russia in either the long or short term.
If a hot war in Syria diminishes the security of Russia, what is the point in that?
Russia is not trying to take friends away from the US. It has a clear set of self defense objectives that it keeps in mind during all decisions and actions.
Bearing in mind that if the US makes a concerted attack Russia, the US will be wiped out without compunction.
Absolutely solid… A-1
It might be good if armchair strategists online wrote less and read more…actual books…then returned so equiped with greater understanding, and thus, more quietly, became observer/historians…
a fine example…from the previous Reich, the German nazis (as opposed to the numerous global diaspora of nazis) that I read long ago myself…https://www.amazon.com/Victor-Klemperer/e/B001H9Q7AA I Will Bear Witness (two volumes) and most especially “LTI” which actual title is ” Lingua Tertii Imperii ”
I know these are in English at Amazon US, and in German as well, elsewhere… But I found library editions for pennies at used book store…
2 volume History of Cold War is good too…
Anyway they would say less and say better if the knew more…so might I!
Best!
LZ99
I agree about reading books of survivors, life and times of the fighters writers artists poets you name it, they all help to give a full picture and bring the world alive. Klemperer’s diaries are the perfect example. How can one evaluate the present without really knowing the past ?
I did read Klemperer’s LTI as a student. Original German version – translation doesn’t make any sense for that book as it tracks what the author perceives as linguistic abuse by the NS authorities, media, and everyday life.
I read it because I was young and didn’t have a clue and the book was highly recommended by some philology prof. The book turned out to be rather dull and boring, though. It’s a good and honest record of petty discrimination the author suffered as a Jew. The author is no liar like so many other Jews writing about that time. Nothing sensational in there, just a philologists remarks on the times with a focus on the language.
In hindsight I figured the book received the typical “Jew bonus”.
I read the 3 tomes of ‘witness bearing’ some time ago, in English, many of the incidents and people I still think about. Amazing life life story and times, from 1933 to 59 ! I don’t know LTI, .
Aju
As always, an interesting and informative article. Thanks.
Here’s my take on this situation.
Lets say a US or ‘coalition’ plane has a mission that does not involve Syrian troops. Imagine they are bombing what everyone is sure is an ISIS position. But its west of the river. They start to come in, and they see that they are being ‘painted’ by air defense systems. I don’t think that will deter them much.
US military types are trained to follow orders. Their orders are to bomb this ISIS site. Furthermore, there’s a culture of showing off how ‘brave’ you are. A pilot does not want to be seen as the ‘scaredy-cat’ of the squadron to his fellow pilots. So, his order say to bomb this site. When he reports that he is being painted, the air controller tells him simply to follow orders and complete his mission. The pilot doesn’t want to look weak or scared to his comrades. So, he grits his teeth and does what he’s told to do. And then probably brags about it when he gets back to the base and he’s having a beer with his fellow pilots.
The real impact of the situation though is when the orders are different. For a recent example, consider the orders given to that USN F-18 to shoot down a Syrian plane. Again the pilot sees he’s being painted. But now, both the pilot and his superiors have to consider what’s going to happen next after the F-18 fires its AAMs? The pilot knows he’s being painted. He may be ok with having convinced himself that the Russians don’t want WW3 today before he fires his AAMs. But, what happens next? Now the pilot and the US controllers and commanders have to consider that perhaps the response to his AAMs will be a salvo of SAMs launching in response.
That’s what might cause some brown stains in a flight suit, and that’s when this might have a deterrent effect on US pilots …. and especially ‘coaltion’ pilots. The thought that if they cross the line and attack Syrian forces again, that there might be a very quick and immediate response coming back at them.
Sorry sir, my engine appears to be acting up. I’m aborting the mission and returning to base.
The famous war criminal LeMay, well impersonated in movie Strangelove by actor G C Scott, had problem in Europe – US Air F was aborting high percentage. LeMay flew lead in next mission – directly through flack. Painted by searchlights and nazi 88’s…
And anybody that aborted was worse off than he’d a been if he’d a flown the dam’d mission…so they did. And lost very high losses. Most US aircrews that landed alive in nazi Germany were beaten to death…
Too bad about Bush pere.
You mean B-41? He’s the guy that bailed out with no damage after a (claimed) near miss…leaving his crew of 2 enlisted me to die in the crash…eye witnesses with bird’s eye view all waited for the court marshall, which did not happen, and 41 was anointed fortunate son P Bush, the man trading with the nazis and (secretly) involved in coup removing FDR Smedly blew the whistle, but they got FDR anyway, after install Truman the chump as VP…
same old army game…
Pax…
It is true that Democratic Firebombing Terrorists were, on occasion, lynched by very angry people, who didn’t like to see their women and children being made the target of firebomb terrorism.
Most Azi American and British aircrew, however, were simply taken prisoner.
Opinions based on memories is always in some doubt and subject to the apologies and plastic nature of human memory over time. this is good and serves to let man live on. If the claim, which I think reasonable as stated is in fact objectively true – if – then I will also say I might well have done the same… It was war…it makes men beasts…
Last living Nuremberg prosecutor testifies as to claim, an eye witness, of a sort, but only one man…he to be found online Ben something…
Maybe he’s lying, but why? And maybe he;s sincere, and mistaken…
What reason has a man of 92 to lie? I ask myself…
Most US aircrews that landed alive in nazi Germany were beaten to death….
That’s not true
Some where maybe beaten to death but definitely not the majority
But they should have been all beaten to death as they deserved it
the people who were there are…are they here to say what happened? I was not…but it is “normal” to murder terror bombers, is it not?
And that is not only what they were doing under orders, they were doing what nazis said was terror bombing… it was.
I will believe the testimony of the last living prosecutor, but it is, I freely say, a belief based of logic, experience, and evidence…but it is not the same as knowing.
Show me the last living guy that says different, together with tangible evidence, and explain logic behind unsupported claim…then my belief will f0llow yours, Comrades. Where is my error?
Pax
There were some cases of the pilots being killed by local crowds. But there were hundreds (at least) of Allied airmen released from POW camps after the war. Who had been shot down over Germany.So there must have not been as many killed as we might have heard. Also after the war the Allied occupation forces checked over German records and there were cases of trials being held of German farmers for killing Allied aircrews.If there had been large numbers of those happenings there would be more reports of it.
I hope so, I hope the claim is substantially incorrect. But I also remember a face to face chat with a game warden (these fellas are gun carrying cops and they can shoot you and generally stay out of jail for it and they are “sworn law enforcement officers”…) This fine officer advised me to my face…”shoot, shovel, shut-up”…and it was clear he was not speaking of wild animals, or maybe animals was the right word… Later I read in the paper that he’d killed a man…he’s still a game warden. There was one other living witness…but he failed to appear at the inquest, and no one has seen him – it’s been several years now…
So I have heard a cop, myself, advise murder… What would a local German cop under incessant terrorist bombing see?
Generally nothing… That’s my opinion based on solid experience… War has an effect on one’s eyes…
As mentioned in the article above – the ‘muricans don’t plan ahead! The way of the cowboys from across the sea is always; ‘Be tough, Shoot First, then ask questions!’
As Putin himself, no less, complained in the Stone Interviews – “They [the AngloZionist and Neocons] have no long term solutions – they do not care about the situation later on – they want the reward NOW!” and “A serious strategy is thinking 25-30 or even 50 years ahead.” [Not exactly direct quotes, but lose enough for my point]. So, no, no commander or pilot would have any thoughts or ideas on what happens after “bombs away” – they are not trained for it, because they are simply not capable of thinking along such lines!
Precisily, Chelsea Mannings are few and far between ~ a soldier with empathy isn’t gonna do the deed for the fn’g banner / Charge of the Light Brigade / Radicalized US Marines and they All Are, or some stoopid NATO hotshot fratboy mentality ~ We cannot count on the ‘front lines’ to falter but to kill or be killed (fodder) Bombs away = my observation > What is the difference between a Weaponized Drone and a Suicide Bomber? And weaponized drones are the pilots with mission maddness …
PS … .thanks for the happy ending to your article. Its always good news that a fellow human being was not killed, but that instead he is safe and has been rescued.
Pilot is still being held by the SDF, probbably some CIA idiot is questioning him
This is much as I figured as being targeted would be enough to make me think twice. about proceeding to bomb a Syrian government or allied position or attack one of its planes assisting those forces. Zones of influence by military means by both sides are being drawn that in the future will be hard to deconstruct though. Is Syria going to be partitioned along the Euphrates River? This game of counter tactics and strategies is certainly not for those without a steel trap mind and nerves made of titanium.
The lick spittle and kiss arse Aussies are back in apparently after sitting on the side lines for a couple of days.
It is good to see the Syrian pilot of the hit Su 22 was rescued. He is one lucky man as I hate to think of his fate had ISIS captured him as he ejected over territory held by ISIS apparently.
Aussies got threatened with a “ISIS” attack.
Don’t know too much as don’t follow MSM.
An acquaintance told me, all in a panic.
“C’mon, ISIS doesn’t exist. You’re Turkish, you know that”
Yeah, she said. But ISIS has issued a threat to Australia. For tomorrow night. June 22.
“That’ll be because the Aussies said they won’t fly in Syria anymore” sez me.
Yes. Probably the real,reason. Said she.
‘Is Syria going to be partitioned along the Euphrates River? ‘
Now that is an interesting question. I would place my bet on that the Americans plan to install a Kurdish area around Deir az Zor, because there are the oil fields located.
By Americans it’s not always ‘follow the money’, but certainly ‘follow the oil’.
Maby some talking on beforehand with Erdogan might be helpful, the Turkish will never allow a Kurdish ‘statelet’ and they would attack it.
I do hope that the Americans have already thought about an exit strategy -often that is not their strongest point.
If I were a long range planner, I would find a solution for the Kurds in Iraq, Syria and Turkey that is acceptable to all four parties. A nation that does that suddenly has four strong allies.
Increased trade and room for moderate immigration would be a plus.
As for Syria proper, do not think they will ever cooperate with us again.
The rumored shoot-down of a US Gloal Hawk would be an ideal way of Russia demonstrating resolve. The US could easily keep very quiet as no life was lost, but it would know that Russia meant business. Russia would also keep quiet as they know the only important audience is the US military.
OK – so let’s look at the real problem, the very essence of the problem in Syria.
With strong suggestions appearing that Syria may be partitioned east and west of the Euphrates a whole new theme on this subject will emerge that if Russia leaves Syria and or agrees to a Partition that the “fall of Syria” is somehow Russia’s fault and off we go.
Firstly a short hopefully modest personal opinion which is that if, when Russia went in, their fellow Shanghai Cooperation Organisation member, China had also sent a number of troops, this could have achieved the defeat of the terrorists before the west could re-organise.
Such a combination, not only immensely powerful militarily, but also important on the global political stage, along with representation from the other SCO countries, could have been not only a massive challenge to the whole “war on terror” project the west duplicitously runs but even a very potent physical block on US hegemony – stopped in their tracks as it were.
Putin knew this which is why he toured these SCO countries and pushed hard for a real coalition against terrorism.
But it didn’t happen.
We can speculate about China, what the Chinese are really thinking, but information from them on their perspective is scant. We simply don’t know and it’s just too bad. They chose not to get involved militarily.
Despite that failure Russia still went in.
Russia saw how weak the SAA was and Russian special forces fought and died alongside the SAA in in the sands of Syria.
They went in at a time when Syria was weeks away from total defeat and Libya-style mass murder and destruction.
Russia turned it round.
Their effort inspired and re-energised the Syrians.
Their planes flew round the clock for months, doing thousands of sorties and they almost obliterated the terrorist forces in most of Syria – but, ISIS was never the real driver of terrorism, the USA is and the Russians knew that as well.
So they tried to tell everybody – Look the whole terrorist machine is US created and driven.
And how many countries said – You’re right Mr Putin. We will come and help you in Syria to defeat these terrorists. How many? None
Russia did this in the teeth of an all-but-nuclear war being waged against it at every level imaginable by the western Anglo Zionist cabal. On and on they go. Like robots.
I am coming to the point of what the real problem in Syria is and trying to forestall wrongheaded criticism of Russia if Syria is partitioned.
Whilst Russia and allies could hammer away at ISIS, in Syria there was always the problem of the US, a regime which is extremely violent, incapable of meaningul negotiation, and with a government possibly out of control and hell bent on global domination.
How do you deal with that?
And whilst we can speculate on who might have done what in the Syrian situation, the blunt fact is that all the mass slaughtering of people in the Middle East, all the aggro against North Korea, all the subversion of governments in Ukraine, South America and indeed everywhere – all of it derives from the USA ( and of course it’s puppets)
How do you deal with that?
The Russian way is to try and try and try and try again to pin them down in “meaningful” dialogue and negotiate sincerely but the US can’t possibly do that because it’s real aim is domination and destruction of Syria, Iran and Russia .
We can have all the “Astanas” and “Genevas” we want aiming to achieve the worthy aspirational goal of men resolving their differences through dialogue but ultimately it comes down to who has the most guns.
There is now clear evidence of a mounting US military presence in eastern Syria and speculation that a Kurdish / Israel 2.0 statelet might be manufactured, garrisoned by the US.
If that happens Russia will not remove it’s military from Syria but use them as leverage to get the best deal they can for Syria, because the dangers to President Assad from a mini Israel/terrorist anti Assad statelet next door are obvious.
I personally think that if Syria is partitioned it will be a calamity, endangering Syria and Iran even more and as far as Russia (and China) are concerned, this event may actually “bring forward” the point at which they have to make very very difficult choices. Choosing “flight” over “fight” gains time but only for so long.
If Syria is partitioned then it is bad. However this may spur certain SCO members into doing more and not leaving Russia to do all the heavy lifting.
If we look at the loss of part of Syria as a failure then it will have been a monumental failure in 2 ways.
First it shows a lack of unity amongst countries opposed to western backed terrorism even though many of them are themselves targets or targets-to-be. Stop leaving it all to Russia.
But that need for unity to fight terrorism springs from the overriding problem of all – the failure of the world to contain the US itself.
It is allowed to do absolutely anything.
This is the problem. .
But how to solve it?
that is the question
Please do not forget Iran’s role in all of this.
Iran was the first country to come to Syria’s rescue and they have paid in blood without making much of it.
https://www.google.com.jm/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0S02BV20151006
https://www.google.com.jm/amp/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2016/11/iran-1000-soldiers-die-syria-2011-161122132955852.html
So not only were the Iranians there before the Russians, they were also instrumental in convincing the Russians to join the fight.
https://www.google.com.jm/amp/mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKCN0S02BV20151006
No I absolutely do not forget Iran’s faithfulness to Syria and their brave effort with the Syrians against the terrorists and like Russia, all the time whilst under never ending US threats of war.
In fact I think a lot of people are concerned about Iran which deserves absolutely none of this mad American aggression and they have bent over backwards to try and placate the Americans.
I posted the above though as “Russia focussed” because if this partition goes ahead and some deal is struck, Russia almost definitely will be accused of betraying Syria, a crazy idea since I am sure there is nothing the Kremlin would have liked more than to see Syria free and sovereign again.
Pretty obvious.
But if the US occupies part of Syria determinedly and in strength, no power on Earth that I am aware of can force them out. Reality.
“But that need for unity to fight terrorism springs from the overriding problem of all – the failure of the world to contain the US itself.
It is allowed to do absolutely anything. ”
Spot on. I agree with everything you say.
The “first cause” of ALL the trouble and mayhem is a thuggish, out-of-control USA.
The world must come together to confront this malignant force.
Whatever happens, there will be body bags galore.
But it is important for the future of planet Earth that the right side win.
Katherine
China does not know how to fight wars.
China does not want to project its military power.
It has gone out into the world with its wealth, not its PLA.
China does not have good Intel operations in many of these conflict zones. (How do you hide Chinese operatives amongst Arabs?)
China is actually at a huge disadvantage to use its “powers” beyond Asia Pacific.
Even moving through South Asia and Central Asia, China has no Muslim connection. It’s own muslims are generally very tame, except for a small proportion of Uyghurs.
China is not really the force within SCO. Russia is.
When China moves, India quakes, rightly or not.
I have been very critical about China not getting into the battles in Syria. They have every right and would be very welcomed. They do have some small Intel operations and special forces personnel in order to get a feel for the Uyghurs amongst ISIS. But they have not been at the front.
China will, presently, only fight militarily for China. They have many risks in play all the time. North Korea threatens the entire NE, three very crucial provinces. The entire South China Sea issue with the ASEAN neighbors and US Navy, for gas, oil and fishing, as well as passage for Chinese shipping and navy. The East China Sea islands, Diaoyu Islands, which also regulate passage for Chinese shipping and naval passage. Again, fishing, oil and gas. Then Taiwan. Then Hong Kong. Then Tibet. Then Xinjiang, and remotely, Inner Mongolia. Those are all always on the front burner. Plenty of places for the Hegemon to stir trouble. And if you look at the border issue with India, it is a tiny thorn with nuclear threat components. So, it must be accounted for.
Syria, from Beijing’s POV, is remote. Not only does China not know how to play the big global geopolitical game against the Hegemon, it certainly has no clue how to use lethal military operations in sustained combat. It is studying Russian techniques. But it should be flying with them, and moving with them on the ground.
There seems to be no sign China is willing to do this.It hasn’t even inserted some of its weapons systems, which also would be good for them to hand over to Syria and Iran to battle-test. China has the largest array of drones, but has not tested them in any conflict.
China should have jumped into the Philippine terror mess with their special forces.
That would have been very useful. Again, nothing.
China simply is not a militaristic nation. Every time they went across their own border, like into Vietnam in 1979 or along the Amur River border in 1968, they did not do well. Even Korea, they sacrificed at least half-a-million men, but could not win.
China is Panda much deeper than Dragon. They do parades great. And one day they will be part of a Russian-led and trained SCO alliance that will be the equal of anything on Earth. But alone, they are not going to fight wars away from China’s sphere.
President Xi meets with Putin in Moscow the first week in July and then both go to Hamburg for the G20. This will be one of the most important G20s, with Trump and the vassals determined to diminish Putin and Russia.
Get the popcorn ready. Meanwhile, don’t hold your breath waiting for China to show up at a war against the Hegemon or its proxies until it’s within a thrown dumpling distance from China.
Very good analysis of China
China fights the war by economy though
I would also prefer they engage militarily but as you said it will not happen yet
Excellent as always Larchmonter. Really enjoy yours and Saker’s analyses. Wish you had a column here too.
You have not accounted for the chinese anti-ship weapon that struck and disabled the Israeli boat off the coast of Lebanon in 2006. That silkworm missile was a very public use of chinese weapons in the Levante more than 10 years ago.
Look, there wont be a ‘state-let’ or Kurdistan/Israel 2.0 foot-hold in Syria/Iraq. The Shia , Persian and/or Arabs wont allow it. The Shia militias from Iraq, Lebanon, Syria(including Hezbollah), Iranian IRGC and assets(advisors, missiles etc..) , Syrian and Iraqi Christians, Lebanese Christians, wont either. Such a ‘state-let’ will be overwhelmed and the Kurds would be silly and suicidal to go for it at the present time and under the circumstances. It will be seen as the ultimate double-cross, and the Kurds don’t need that, being totally surrounded by their hosts.
The next moves for the Kurds will be crucial if not fatal. The Kurds have to understand that they can assimilate in the countries they reside in, or pack it up and keep wandering around as they have for millennium. If a person takes you in in your hour of need and is gracious to you, you don’t then turn around and stab him in the back!.
Na, sorry, but the Kurd/Israel/U.S. project will be squashed quickly by everyone in the region. If a Kurdistan Israeli foothold is allowed to take shape in Syria, it will then embolden the Kurds/Israelis/U.S. to take further steps in Iraq, Turkey and Iran. The Shia, Sunni’s and Christians are paying attention. The Kurds owe it to themselves not to take such a blunder and overextend their hand. It could result in a ethnic cleansing type scenario against them. I hope they heed reason.
“There is now clear evidence of a mounting US military presence in eastern Syria and speculation that a Kurdish / Israel 2.0 statelet might be manufactured, garrisoned by the US.”
There has been clear and obvious evidence the US is working creating a Kurdish/Israel 2.0 statelet.
No speculation. Quite clear and obvious really. If one took the time to remove the smoke that was filling the air? To lift the veil? And to stop believing the media spin put forth regarding the ‘democratic’ the “women first’ the ‘non-secular” Kurdish militias.
http://pennyforyourthoughts2.blogspot.ca/2015/11/kurdistan-aka-second-israel-ethnic.html
3 military bases built by the US, One french base and loads of NATO special forces embedded with the PKK/YPG tell us all we need to know..
Penny – you have totally nailed it and deserve credit for writing about this Israel 2.0 /Kurdistan “conjoined twin” relationship 3 years ago. .
I think what is different now is that the possibility of achieving this Zionist statelet is looking very real. I think they see it as within their grasp.
It will come down to what the US does. If they are willing to garrison it, it will happen. Without the US military it would not fly.
If Russia accepts a partition deal on the grounds that it is “the best we can achieve at this time” (because they know further territorial acquisition for the SAA or anybody, east of the Euphrates is impossible due to US military occupation.) then, there may be problems within the alliance of Russia, Syria and Iran/Hezbollah.
That would be very undesirable.
If Syria is partitioned and a regime, backed by American brute-force-occupation of part of Syria is dreamed up, ethnic cleansing of the Syrian Arabs who live there and much more will follow as you have also predicted, Penny.
Most writers on Syria are focussing on the successes and gains west of the Euphrates and this is understandable but I think we need to watch the eastern side even more closely.
3 things:
1) Was the Hornet waiting for the Su-22, was it an ambush ?
2) The Russians may be good at chess but the US people are good at poker and with your understanding of the Russian’s answer, the US may be convinced that Russia will never oppose them in Syria when they wil split the country to create the Kurdistan.
3) How do you know that the Pilot has been rescued since Syria never said so and the pilot’s family claimed that he was in the hands of the YPG ?
Hi, love the analysis and the views into the Russian mind. The Russians do indeed play chess well.
However, I do want to take issue with something that you wrote that I think reflects a little on your own hubris and opposition to the west and that was in your description of the west : “that westerners always look at everything in the short term and tactical level”. You then reference both Hitler’s and Napoleon’s attacks on Russia. Commanders in both of those wars may well have had a very high opinion of their troops based on successes in Europe and a low opinion of Russian military, undeserved or not. However, I would argue that in both cases there was a clear strategy based around the principle that you can never win a long war with Russia. Russia has too many people and too many resources that if brought to bear will eventually overwhelm any attacker. Thus any strategy has to be created around crafting a quick win. i.e. bring existing Russian armies into combat and destroy them, then move to take the political and industrial centres located in Russia’s western territories in order to prevent the creation of further military forces. However, while such a strategy is fairly clear, implementing it is always going to be difficult. As you have repeatedly said, Russia is fully aware of its strength’s and weaknesses, and, unlike many western powers, much more accepting of high casualty levels if those casualties allow it to succeed in its ultimate goals. In both of the cases above, Russia was willing to take casualties and see homeland destruction as part of the price of victory. Something that neither Napoleon, nor Hitler’s German armies were able to ultimately overcome before Russia’s geographic advantages began to tell.
As someone who has talked to individuals in western military powers, I would argue that the problem with military actions in the last two decades has not lain in the short termism of the general staff, but the politicians who command them. Military staff have regularly pointed out the issues around the limitations placed upon them, but are not allowed to take the time or commit the forces to succeed at what is ostensibly their goals for success. Russia is lucky enough to be in a position were it is able to take advantage of this lack of political intelligence. Western politicians who have the hubris to intervene in areas that they should stay out of, blindness to military advice against their foolishness and unwillingness to actually commit the level of forces that they would need to succeed, assuming that success is even possible in the first place.
I should note that I include some generals under the label “politicians”…
Russia is lucky indeed that its military commanders do not have American politicians commanding them or they would find themselves being wasted in futile gestures for the sake of media exposure too.
The mark on the timeline is not the last two decades, my friend. 1945 until now, the Western military is nothing more than banditry, war criminals and outlaws. Where they have met a nation that has a sense of sovereignty, they fail.
Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Syria all had a chance. All have repelled the West.
Iran has defended itself through strength and the use of proxies as threat to Israel.
Iraq, Yugoslavia and Libya were exploited and duped, then destroyed. All third class militaries with heavily divided social structures that cracked the nation internally.
None of these lost wars of the West were lost for political reasons. Military took the Trillions (six and counting) and did their best to kill as many people and break as many buildings and destroy as much infrastructure as it could. Those were military decisions, unfettered. Shock and Awe! At least three million have been killed by these “handstrung” militaries. What, beyond nuclear weapons, have they not used against their targets?
If they were ever going to win against a worthy opponent it would be in Syria or Ukraine. Bring it on. We are three years and waiting for the military of NATO/US to outfox Donbass. Or they could try to take Crimea back.
In Syria, there are ample opportunities to show their skills. They use proxies everywhere.
The reality is in the history they have written. They are small bore tacticians. They are not good at strategy. They have not even done well against insurgencies and COIN. How many years did the US and Colombia take to defeat FARC?
In El Salvador, the US took on the FMLN and couldn’t defeat them. They fought the Sandinistas with Contras and lost. Joaquin Villalobos in the former and Daniel Ortega in the latter were better than the Pentagon. And we all know the Battle of Cuito Cuanivale in Angola. The US, Israel and South Africa got their heads handed to them in the skies and on the ground with Castro and General Ochoa with Cubans in the air and on the ground defeating the combined forces and mercenaries of the West. Angola held its sovereignty.
There are no arguments I can find in favor of the West military. Heroic special operators. That’s it. And there are better spec. ops in Russia. Proven, over and over. There is an annual contest in Jordan. When did the West last win?
Well said, however Yugoslavia didn’t lose the war, it lost the piece…as usual.
Peace that is….apologies
How to stay out of wars (of aggression)?
The answer is simple enough: check for the legality of orders first – including international treaties – and refuse any order that violates the law. If the commander(s) insist despite your legal counter-argument, arrest them or shoot them on the spot. One should never forget that the execution of illegal actions bears personal liability, orders don’t lower the responsibility and guilt a jota.
Reasonable commanders, and there are plenty mid and upper ranks of the US military, care about the men they command. The description of the stress delivered to a pilot caused by “lighting up” the cockpit radar by Russian radar was most effective especially in its descriptive lead up. Good writing, Saker!
Thus, one would think that in the daily military routine everyone in the chain of command is going to be much, much more careful. And that is the idea. Scoooooooore!
As for the rumor about the intelligence drone shot down in the Mediterranean, that needs to be confirmed by a carefully worded, read-between-the-lines article released by some ( Tass maybe) Russian news source because that is what has happened after previously “cloaked ”
incidents. Otherwise it can turn into wishful thinking or rumor-mongering rather than plausible possibility.
Well, the premise “Russia is still the weaker party here” is very much true. And it shows; US had its way in Syria. Surely, not in form of Sunni jihadistan, as originally premeditated; but that was just a means, not an end-goal.
American basic goal in Syria was dismemberment of strong, Baathist, secular statehood of Syria, as ruled by the Assad dynasty. Did they succeed in achieving this ? They surely did. Despite the last-moment salvation of Bashar Assad’s rule of the country, the country will never be the same strong Syria of preceding decades. The rebuilding of the country would take very long time, with the effort being hampered by many obstacles, such as significant parts of territory occupied by hostile jihadists.
A country going through what Syria is going through ending in victory will be a newborn nation, legendary for generations. Look at Russia, Chechnya.
“The first step towards understanding how the Russians function is to stop expecting that they would act just like Americans would.”
But…but… the Americans (like their Anglo Zionist bloodkin) are the Master Race, God’s Chosen People, and Exceptional Nation
The entire human race thus must behave the way Americans do, as they as the Shining City on a Hill(tm).
I know this because the New York Times told me so. ;-)
“Russians don’t think that way. They don’t care about instant gratification, they care only about one thing: victory. And if that means to look weak, that is fine. From a Russian perspective, sending “messages” or taking symbolic actions (like all 4 of the recent US attacks in Syria) are not signs of strength, but signs of weakness.”
I’m sure this is true, but just like a dog that is barking at a cyclist, you have to stop and stare him down to back off. For ever attack, assassination, incursion, the Hezbollah make sure that they retaliate. That retaliation is, in their words, at a time, place, and means of their choosing. They are not always strong enough to retaliate in kind. So they do not do this as a show of strength but as a necessary deterance.
I feel that some necessary action will be needed. As a stop gap, the Russian move is good. But I feel something bigger is needed, something like what got the US to leave Lebanon. The reason I say this, is that the US is probing and pressing for escalation with either Iran or Russia, in chess you’d say with the rook and the Queen on this board, so a response from a pawn would be ideal. And it does not look like they will stop. The Australians are flying again. And the US will sooner or later send their pilots or try to engage from behind their descalation zones. In this one, I think the militias should be used. Maybe in Iraq. Everytime one attack happens here, a little trouble happens there. But there will be wiser heads than my puny one managing this board. Just saw a video from 2016 where Qasim Sulaimani predicted that Prince Salman would take the crown Prince’s position. So they are looking far ahead and they are playing the game.
Thank you for this very educational article
Putin and Assad need to decide if they can tolerate a partitioned Syria. If they cannot tolerate one, they need a long term strategy to drive out the West. Shooting down a US jet will not be the answer, it would just provoke a massive cruise missile attack against all military assets in Syria.
Saker, you continue to remind us that Russia is the weaker party here – I disagree with many aspects of that statement. But I have come to love your persistent downplaying of Russia’s strength.
I recall during some of the hot times in Ukraine, being frustrated that I couldn’t figure out what Russia was really up to. Then one day I realized how wonderful it was that even Russia’s friends couldn’t figure out her strategy.
It’s the same here. Continue, please, to tell us all that Russia is the weaker party of the two. Forgive me while I add my own view that the US has actually deteriorated to such a great degree that she is now inferior to Russia. But I have no military expertise, while you do – so maybe I’m being too “armchair” in this matter.
But I continue to believe that Russia is in fact the stronger of the two opponents in this global existential war. She is certainly the winner. But let’s not tell this secret to the world ;)
~~
As for the trolls in your side-note – I’ve noticed the same thing. Military activities or issues seem to increase the number of trolls in all the web sites. Your site is a good measure because you have such good moderation that you can track this. It’s as if military personnel are mustered into play at short notice when a situation gets hot in the news or social media. These people aren’t very up to speed on the nuances of the situation, and they are VERY aggressive in their ad hominem attacks. They manage to disrupt many a discussion thread, and blur the focus. But it’s clear that these are military reinforcements temporarily brought to the aid of the routine, more civilian trolls who live among us as they were nice people.
» … the US has actually deteriorated to such a great degree that she is now inferior to Russia. «
I think their technology has certainly evolved and improved. You could say that maybe the personnel isn’t up to yesterday’s standards in terms of morale/discipline/willpower/whatever, but I don’t think so eiter.
As pointed out by Saker and other people, Uncle Sam’s vast deployment of military power across the globe is primarily to terrorize Third World colonies or the equivalent thereof.
During the Cold War, which was phoney (because nukes are no science and all fiction – see Heiwaco-tripod-bomb), there’s never been any danger of a real shooting war with the Soviet Union. The whole thing was set up to let the two “superpowers” rule Europe and the rest of the globe together in a state of induced paralysis because of the stupid nuke dogma.
Today, there is a real clash and a risk of war (remember: nukes = fiction). Uncle Sam’s glorious apparatus of colonial oppression bases may look as gorgeous as an aircraft carrier battle group – but it’s also a lot of very legitimate point targets that can be struck from afar by a potent adversary wielding high-tech weapons. If that happens how will the world react? Will it side with Uncle Sam, the global cop? Or will it welcome each blow dealt to Uncle Sam, the global terrorist? Because a global terrorist he truly is.
So Uncle Sam has a lot to lose – not only militarily, but also his status and nimbus. Just imagine watching an aircraft carrier explode and burn and sink on Youtube. Russia or China or Iran could do that. And then what? Retaliate using the super-expensive stealth planes that apparently were brought down by Serbia in ’99 using old Soviet tech?
Aircraft carriers and stealth bombers are terrorist systems that serve to terrorize and nothing else, and so I’m sure the world minus NATO will be pretty unanimous in saying “good riddance!”
Although Anders (Heiwaco) makes solid scientific point – I don’t find his writing style very convincing. His wording and the tendency to mix irrelevant unsupported ‘stories’ into the equation (e.g. he claims that Trump was attempting to nuke Syria) takes away much of his credibility.
Here is a, in my mind, more convincing thread from Cluesforum – which examines the documentary aspect. They have investigated all the available media captures of ‘nuclear tests’ to date in a systematic way – picked them apart and conclude it’s a hoax from start to end. Rather easy even for laymen to appreciate.
http://cluesforum.info/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=452
Interesting. If nuclear weapons are a hoax, this implies deep collusion among the governments of the “nuclear powers” over a period of many years. Otherwise the hoax would have been exposed decades ago. Presumably, this hoax has been perpetuated by these governments for the purpose of terrorizing their own respective citizenry into submission and for validating governmental policies.
One must then conclude that the “Great Power rivalry” between the US and the USSR, and later the Russian Federation, must also be a hoax as well. The real adversarial relationship would not be between governments, such as US/Russia, but between those governments and their own citizens.
Would that not be the case?
» deep collusion among the governments … real adversarial relationship «
Sure there is such deep collusion … but there is also real adversarial relationship at the same time. It’s like an oligopole. They work together to protect their common privileges, but still compete against each other where they have opposing interests.
I think that when Uncle Sam started the hoax, he intended to scare the Soviets, which didn’t work. But then he discovered it worked great against his own sheeple … all this military is so necessary because of the great threat posed to “America”. When in reality Uncle Sam’s homeland is basically unassailable – no threat whatsoever in sight.
Same scaremongering going on with the 9/11 hoax. Hollywood in Manhattan, as explained by Phil Jayhan and Larry MacWilliams (do2read). Nobody was killed, except perhaps unintentionally, by accident. But Saker still has the A&E 9/11 links up, with the ridiculous airplanes in the logo.
I see. The hoax was then perpetuated by the Soviet Union as well as Britain who must have seen the same benefit to their political situations as did the US. Also, later, Pakistan, India, China, France, etc. All pretending to have nuclear weapons (most recently North Korea).
You say, though:
“there is also real adversarial relationship at the same time”
Given the extent of the nuclear weapons hoax, how do you know this? Using the threat of war with a pretend enemy such as the USSR (or the USA from the other side) would serve the same purpose as the threat of nuclear weapons, would it not? It would be in the advantage of each side to pretend hostility as an ongoing strategy (as envisioned by George Orwell). How do we know that any of the supposed international conflicts and tensions (Syria, Ukraine, etc) are real and not staged?
Pretending to have nuclear weapons is pretending to a certain status and importance. Björkman writes, in his sloppy but quite appropriate style, that the British Bulldog felt a little irrelevant next to Uncle Sam and Uncle Ivan, so had to come up with the bomb himself, and whoops, prestige restored. Same story for France. And China. And then India and Pakistan.
Real adversarial relationship: Korea, Vietnam: Millions of people dead in war. Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria: Hundreds of thousands of people dead in war. Ukraine, Yugoslavia: Tens of thousands of people dead in war. All of these theaters were real, none was staged, if you pardon the pun. Real Russian interests were attacked everywhere. So, bloodshed and stakes, that’s how we know it’s real.
» threat of war … same purpose as the threat of nuclear weapons «
Nuclear weapons don’t have a purpose for Uncle Sam any more, which is why Obama, in the run-up to his first term, said he wanted to make the world free of them. Back then, I was fully under the spell and thought, what a stupid slogan, it’s impossible to uncreate nuclear weapons, they’ll be here forever because of their tremendous power and the impossibility of universal trust and peace.
In hindsight, it’s clear it was an attempt by Obama’s teleprompter to bury the hoax, after the initial and necessary step of a “nuclear test moratorium” (“breached” by rogue France in the mid nineties, just another silly nuke PR stunt, leading to a short boycott of French cheese and wine among lefties in Germany).
But Russia does not agree to bury the hoax, maybe feeling Cold War nostalgia, when they ruled half of Europe, maybe clinging to a certain special prestige, maybe seeing nukes as instrumental in respawning a peace movement in Europe … as a suitable narrative allowing NATO to back down from their aggressive stance without losing face. RIA/Sputnik had me very worried around 2003/04 with their nuke & ABM narratives.
And to bury the hoax does not mean to expose it. It’ll never be admitted from the top of the pyramid, only from the bottom, from the grassroots, from folks like us who are sick and tired of being lied to, eh, being woven into funky narratives. These lies like nukes, gas chambers, human space travel and 9/11 are too big to fail, too much has been stacked on top of them, so they’ll never be admitted.
» threat of war … same purpose as the threat of nuclear weapons «
You are right that the threat of a horrible war would work the same as the nuke threat. After all, the nuke threat is the war threat driven to a superhuman, monstrous scale. But the situation now is not the same as in ’45. Back then, Uncle Sam agreed to divide up the world with Uncle Ivan. When they agreed to lift the divide in ’89, Uncle Sam was aiming to not lose control … but on the contrary, to expand it, to topple and dismantle the old rival, and to prevent the emergence of a new rival. The nuke narrative was useful in the framework of the divided world after WW2, but it was not useful in the framework of PNAC / Sole Superpower / Full Spectrum Dominance and all that other Azi bullsh!t.
To summarize:
1) Nuke narrative invented to scare the Soviets. => Fail … but we can still scare partners and lesser nations.
2) Nuke narrative 2.0 (MAD / Gleichgewicht des Schreckens) => Useful for block cohesion on each side of the divide.
3) Nuke narrative has outlived its usefulness for Uncle Sam as Wall comes down, so is moved on the back burner, and the back burner is even turned off (test moratorium).
4) Nuke narrative doesn’t fit in PNAC / FSD scenario as it denies US FSD by giving other players the power of reducing the US to nuclear ashes.
5) Nuke narrative to be buried, but Uncle Ivan refuses, so nolens volens kept going as a zombie as Uncle Sam can’t bury it alone.
» his writing style «
Well, it’s just poking fun at the nuclear narrative, isn’t it. We do need to laugh occasionally. :)
By the way, remember how Trump asked why you couldn’t use nuclear weapons? Good question, don’t you think? The answer is there for all who have eyes to see.
For sure it’s there for anyone to see. Who has ever heard of a game changing weapon that has supposedly been in existence for more than 70 years – only used ‘in battle’ weeks after it was first ‘developed’ and then never again?
We know it would not be out of concern for humanity, as US has no issues using depleted uranium in Serbia, Iraq, Libya and elsewhere – a very real toxic catastrophe well tucked away by MSM. (and now somewhat brought into the light by the Serbs)
As for motivation behind the nuclear weapon hoax – apart from fear projection (internal/external) which I would say is the primary driver – there is also the exquisite opportunity of stealing public funds. This has enriched the folks behind the military industrial complex beyond belief over the years.
Hope you take the time to go thru the cluesforum thread at some point in case you haven’t already. It’s amazing how they thought they could get away with this stuff – not anticipating that only a few years later the public would have access to such ‘advanced’ functionality as replay, slow motion and pixel analysis. It’s a great laugh.
This and other lies of magnitude are just to big to be untold – they can’t afford to change the narrative at this point, so it will go on forever – possibly enforced by a carefully staged false flag to reinforce it as some of the sheeple are starting to awake. Whatever they need to uphold it, they will do – and therein lays the greatest danger probably.
Fully agree with your comment, Bangkok – going to check out the Cluesforum thread.
Here’s another forum I’m taking the opportunity to plug once more:
The 9/11 Truth Movement – 30 Year Conspiracy Inside a Conspiracy – by Phil Jayhan & Larry McWilliams
Special Effects & Fake Smoke @ the World Trade Center on 9/11
“When strong appear weak. When weak appear strong”
“When far from the enemy, let them think you are near. When near, let them think you are far away”
– The Art of War, Szin Szu
Correct! The Russians are master of маскеровка [maskerovka – deceit of the enemy].
The ‘muricans, while they have their strengths and advantages, don’t have a clue of what the Russians next move is, or will be. The anglos play poker (they bluff) or checkers (no long term strategy needed) – while their opponents (China and Russia) plays game’s of the mind, Chess or Go!
Thank you for article.
Digression: What are yours requremets to give permission to individuals to translate this/or others article/s and republish it (of course, with link to original article)? I could not find requrements on this web page, maybe because i use mobile phone.
In my case, i would like to translate it on Croatian (which means most people from exYugoslavia could read it) and try to put it on one portal.
OF COURSE!
Please check the details at the bottom of the page
All my original comments are copylefted under Creative Commons license.
Cheers!
The Saker
The Saker can reply, if desired. (ju)
Permission for translation, second part- added portal for translation:
I would like to translate article on Croatian and tray tu put it on http://www.logicno.com portal.
Best regards
T.
I think Russia could respond to the intercept of Shoigu’s plane as well as the Syrian jet attack by beginning to escort Syrian fighter-bombers with their most advanced air-to-air fighters as they did after Turkey shot down the Russian jet. This would force the US to decide whether to engage superior Russian fighters (and pilots) together with Syrian jets and prevent a repeat of the Syrian jet downing. They wouldn’t have to escort every Syrian jet just randomly making it harder for the US to pull a repeat.
A slightly riskier approach would be to start “intercepting” or “escorting” or “shadowing” US aircraft over Syria with Russia’s air-to-air fighters. This would be more likely to risk an accident or accidental engagement, but would unnerve US pilots even more than being painted. They could just come within X miles of the US jets, then hang there. This would also allow them to observe US actions and even videotape them for use in case the US does something worth exposing.
Thank you Saker, for providing insight into the Russian Federation’s approach to defeating ISIS in Syria while skillfully parrying away the U.S.-NATO attempt at direct engagement. I surmise your observations are based upon at least a couple of factors.
1. The western coalition continues its military and logistical support for the anti-Assad fighting forces (FSA/SDF, Kurds, ISIS Inc., etc.). They are losing battle after battle against the Syrian defensive alliance (SAA, Russia, Iran, Hezbollah, etc.). The momentum for winning the Syrian civil war has swung in favor of the legitimate government in Damascus whose goal is to recover all of Syrian sovereignty including at some time in the distant future, the Golan Heights.
2. The U.S. has a contingent of American ground troops that originated from Jordan and illegally crossed the Syrian border and garrisoned themselves at the border town of At Tanf. It is protected by U.S. fighter air support as we witnessed the recent shooting down of a Syrian military aircraft under the claim of, “collective self-defense”. We clearly read from the U.S. website Operation Inherit Resolve, the U.S. engaged pro-Syrian forces as they approached At Tanf, conveniently named as a “de-confliction zone” (see: http://www.inherentresolve.mil/News/News-Releases/Article/1205543/coalition-statement-on-actions-near-at-tanf-syria/ ).
How these heinous acts cannot be understood to be anything but a declaration of war against Syria by the military junta operating from Washington, DC and firmly in control of American foreign policy, is beyond my comprehension. This appears to be a historical repeat of Japan in the 1930’s where President Trump plays Emperor Hirohito and Secretary of War James Mattis plays the part of uber-nationalist, General Hideki Tojo.
So here are some questions going forward that I believe need to be addressed by President’s Putin and Assad:
1. What events will determine the Syrian civil war has ended?
2. What definitive steps will be taken if the U.S. refuses to leave Syria?
3. What will the Russians do if the Americans:
A. Shoot down a Russian military aircraft or a Syrian plane piloted by a Russian?
B. Bomb Russian ground forces either from a cruise missile attack, long-range artillery or by military aircraft?
all such decisions, as are all ethical matter, is situational. These question are thus of what mathematics terms indeterminate…this that the answers cannot be known, but exist in some other realm… thus what function?
rhetorical, metaphysical, but not objective.
war was understood by Ivan to have begun in 2014 at Kiew…Ivan is at low level global war against similar war global in assault to conquer Ivan…everybody knows, or refuses to know, this evident objective fact, Comrade.
As I have thought about for the most of the 3.5 years since Maidan, what if Yanukovych had shut down Maidan and stayed in power?
With $5 Billion invested, a team of snipers already in town in Kiev, the grasp on the SBU and nazi battalions so weak, it is highly like the CIA would have paid for the Ukraine President’s assassination, by sniper, bomb or airplane accident. The fact is the US laid its grasp on Kiev and would have taken it no matter.
Would Putin have fought them with the RF military?
No. He would only do that in Crimea.
So, Kiev was gone long before it left. Since it wouldn’t leave through democratic election, the US broke it away with blood and broken bodies. Yanukovych’s fecklessness enabled it, but he was doomed long before. Only Putin’s humanity didn’t reward the coward billionaire with bullet or return trip to the gallows.
The question has always been Crimea (it went home as it had indicated in 1991 and 1994 referendums it wanted to). And then, the natural home of Russian Ukraine, Novorossiya, of which Donbass is the closest region (with no fence or border wall, wide open for individuals to walk back and forth, as it was during the early days of the militia uprising)—when would Russia claim that? When would the nazis be driven back to their natural enclave in the west Ukraine?
We can see a similar game plan trying to work in Belarus. Nazis evident, trying to stir a uprising in streets. Perhaps, the CIA testing its stooges, their leadership, and estimating the response that may come from Moscow.
But this Minsk revolution will be very differently handled. I expect FSB special forces used to hunting and eliminating terrorists inside Russia will be used to exterminate the nazis next door. It won’t be on a live TV showdown. It will be in the middle of the night, as they do normally. Then a press release that terrorists have been liquidated.
Lesson learned. Never trust the President or leader of a nation the US has marked for regime change. Act in his behalf swiftly, first. The Russians saved Erdogan because they had learned that lesson. They blunted the coup and foiled the midair assassination.
The reason it would not have probably saved Kiev is the nazi masses were too large, the people too passive, the propaganda had worked for 25 years, and no one thought the insanity would be so easily spread. Ukraine, as we have all seen, is uniquely a low-functioning society. It’s best brains drained away to Russia and the West. It’s work ethic is low. Everyone in power is corrupt.
It’s best days ended with the Soviet collapse. The fact that it took 25 years to get them to break from dependence on Russia with the tantalizing fraud of EU membership and a new teat to suck on, clearly shows what a paucity of quality existed in Kiev and the inhabitants of its vast lands. They are very slow learners. Good for thuggery, murder and torture, but dullards for all else. Once the cream left, the Ukies were doomed.
Part of Putin’s strategy is sociological. He knows these welfare-check masses will be like herds of four-leggeds when its feeding time. Even poultry flock where the feed is thrown. The economics and sociological pressures are as much artillery raining down on Ukies as shells from Donbass cannons. The thing about patience in this war is that 30+ million mouths have to be filled with food and drink and their bodies warmed by coal and gas. That is an enormous drain on Germany, EU, IMF, US (especially on tight-wad Trump).
Though Ukraine is lost to Russia, Donbass, Crimea and eventually, Novorossiya will be suckled by Mother Russia in due time.
Fifty years from now, Ukraine will be a third its size. A nazi zoo, proudly a part of the great alliance of nazis in the West. Langley’s foster-child, dim-witted, demonic and deviant. With any luck, those nazi freaks will be diminished by some virus or SDT of lethality, a special HIV strain most likely, genetically engineered to eliminate them since they will have no more use to anyone, even the Russophobes in DC.
I think the main part of the Russian statement is overlooked ,”“In areas of the combat missions of Russian aviation in the skies of Syria “. What that says is “where” Russian aviation is flying.It doesn’t say anything about protecting Syrians. It isn’t the Russians the US is attacking. And the Russians are fully aware of that. So for the purpose of protecting Syrians the statement was meaningless. It might serve a purpose as the article says.But I doubt the US has “missed” the meaning of “In areas of the combat missions of Russian aviation in the skies of Syria “.
Dear Uncle Bob
That would be a very material and necessary detail. And the devil is in the detail.
I guess the Russians must be under pressure from their allies to confront the belligerence of the US, depends how close the Allies are. Till where their ultimate aims and interests overlap. However, the Russians must be looking for a response that is least likely to result in an open conflict. Moreover, unless they close ranks, there can be no proper alliance. So even though the Russians aren’t being directly targeted, it’s not exactly only their proxies that are, Syria would be more like a protected ally.
But a very nice discovery
Regards
Good catch, Uncle Bob! Yes, the Russian statement did sound weasel-like to me, the Saker shed some light in this article and micro-analyzed it (the end-result didn’t convince me fully, I am afraid), but this catch of yours explains things quite nicely. So the bottom-line is it is going to be business as usual, provided Russian planes are not harmed. To that end, the Russian statement was craftily worded; as for protecting Syrian forces directly, no commitment at all.
I’m not saying they “won’t” help Syria to defend against the US planes. And as Saker explained,It made a lot of sense to me.I like to see details. I was just saying that the Russian statement itself,is not a guarantee of anything. I have seen (thankfully) that the Russian generals concerned with the Syrian conflict are much more angry appearing, over the US’s criminal actions. So it may be that they are at a point of refusing to tolerate much more of them.
Unrelated but consequential, some machinations going on in Iran
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/23/irans-president-heckled-at-rally-after-criticism-by-supreme-leader-power-struggle-rouhani-khamenei
Some “uncomfortable” politics in Iran. Khamenei openly critical of Rouhani, threatening him with impeachment and the president openly suggesting that the next supreme leader should be elected like imam Ali
That is a situation little know by most people. I’ve only heard a little about it as well.But “basically”,Khamenei believes that ever trusting the US is foolish (smart man). While Rouhani and some of those around him think they can deal with the US. Where,other than wishful thinking,he gets that idea from is beyond me. But he seems to think that.I can’t think of a single treaty that the US has really kept to (that wasn’t benefiting them 100%) in modern history (actually any US history). So why he would think this time was any different, I have no idea.From day one (before Trump) the US has worked to undermine the nuclear deal with Iran. A treaty that “they themselves” put together. So some Iranian’s thinking that the US would deal fairly with an Iran-hating Trump regime is more than foolishness.At least Khamenei is smart enough to understand that.
@Partisan of Ali. You believe that source? I can’t remember when last the Guardian told the truth about Iran, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Sudan, Afghanistan, Serbia, Russia, the Clintons, the British economy or anything else of importance I looked up in it; and I’m over 80.
Agree with both you and uncle Bob
Regards
On a related note showing that the US military will always attempt to blame others for its mistakes …….
I see that the USN is now blaming the crew of the merchant ship that was involved in a collision with a USN destroyer off the coast of Japan. They are emphasizing that the merchant ship was running at auto-pilot in the middle of the night.
I suspect this is rather normal on merchant ships that carry a minimum crew to save money.
Unmentioned in these stories and apparently in the official USN investigation is why wasn’t the bridge of the destroyer paying any attention. Unlike the merchant ship, their certainly should have been officers and crew of the USN destroyer keeping watch on its bridge. And that advanced destroyer certainly has plenty of detection gear to have spotted the merchant ship a long ways off. It being peacetime, there’s no real reason why the destroyer couldn’t have had its radars active.
So, a slow moving merchant ship holding a steady course under auto-pilot. There is no reason why the destroyer could not have seen this. The destroyer is both faster and more manueverable than the merchant ship. Avoiding a collision should have been a simple task for the destroyer. They should have been tracking that ship for miles before the collision, and thus be able to easily avoid a slow moving ship holding a constant course.
This leaves open the question of why the destroyer still hit the merchant ship?
And it shows the complete lack of honor and honesty in the US military that they would be releasing reports that put the blame on the merchant ship.
US domestic propaganda puts a great deal of emphasis on the ‘honor’ of the US military. All the pro-military movies and TV shows talk about this, and use the honor codes of the military academies as an example. Its supposed to be against these codes to lie.
Yet, we see time after time after time that the US military has no honor. This is just the latest example.
Good points, A.
Obviously the the usn ship was practicing the raygun regime institution of us military doctrine. It’s been in force ever since. The reason the usn ship awake personnel were unaware of the other ship? They were busy giving each other blowjobs.
Besides covering up the bj party, the pindos are also desperate to cover up the fact there was no effective damage control and that the 7 men probably died because of this.
grog, sodomy, and the lash are the tri-pod upon which the Navy is founded……and I like the ditty too…
When in danger or in doubt,
Steam in Circles!
Toot!
And Shout!
This basic US officer course…
From what I’ve seen, the situation is perfectly clear.
The merchantman hit the Fitzgerald on the starboard (right) side. Therefore, under Admiralty COLREGS (Collision Regulations) Rule 17, the merchantman was the “stand-on vessel”, meaning it had right of way. The Fitzgerald, approaching the MV Crystal on its port side was the “give-way vessel”. The stand-on vessel’s obligation under this rule is to “maintain course and speed” so the give-way vessel can predict her actions and manouver out of her way. That is crystal (ahem!) clear.
The MV Crystal also had “extra” rights as a vessel that can’t readily manouver.
The COLREGS also state that regardless of rights-of-way, all vessels must keep an alert watch, make every effort to warn the other vessel, and to take every reasonable action to avoid and/or minimize the effects of collision.
Clearly, neither vessel was paying any attention, neither appears to have taken any action, and in such case while the “right of way” rule takes precedence, it is not decisive. IOW, the MV Crystal is partially at fault. My guesstimate is that a maritime court will pin her liability at 15-20%.
If there was any “honor” at all, the Fitzgerald’s captain and duty officers would be cashiered. The captain of the MV ACX Crystal is staring at a major black mark in his record, but the Fitzgerald violated every relevant rule in the COLREGS and USN SOPs. It was clearly a very unprofessionally run ship.
We’ll see what the USN does. As of now, they’re spinning it at 5000 rpm.
U.S. Navy vs Spanish Coast Guard.
Spanish Coast Guard 1 – 0 U.S. Navy.
Lmfao!
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=37b_1378633407
No doubt skipper will be promoted to admiral and find himself at Luckup Company as vice president, or maybe, like McCain, get into politics, or possibly a teaching job at some university, like the Naval Academy. Nazis never admit they did anything wrong or stupid…
This was perhaps a sequel to ‘USS Montana vs. lighthouse’?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ_FOmMqXfE
Very good post. That should be how the merchant ships attorney’s state their case.Probably 99.9% of people don’t even know about those rules.
Typical USN FUBAR that beats most FUBARS …enjoy! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Point_disaster
one after the other like little boys they marched right into the surf…some of ’em still rust in the sand there…
From JimStone dot is/baaasepagew8.html a reader question and his response::
Hi Jim, On the USS Fitzgerald is it possible that hackers took control of the autopilot system on the cargo ship? Cheers, Roger”
My response: My best guess in this scenario, (and it is only a guess) is that both ships got hacked. The Fitzgerald may have a form of Stuxnet on it. A simple hack on the cargo ship would be all that would be needed for it, but the Fitzgerald would need to have many systems get corrupted at once to make this happen.
My best guess is that the Fitzgerald had an infection that spoofed radar and other readings, to make it look like there was nothing there so no action was taken, and that even the engines on the Fitzgerald were under remote control to put it in exactly the right place to get hit. The hit could not have been worse. It was a PERFECT hit. Figure the odds, I think that was arranged and no one on the Fitzgerald knew it.
The container ship should have also had collision avoidance, at least sirens to wake the crew, and NADA. It was modern, and all the ships have that. I do not believe the collision happened by accident. By remote? Probably.
Saker
“I noticed this time again that each time the US tries to bait Russia into some kind of harsh reaction and Russia declines to take the bait, this triggers in immediate surge into the number of comments which vehemently complain that Russia is acting like a pussy, that Putin is a fake, that he is “in cahoots” with the US and/or Israel and that the Russians are weak or that they have “sold out”. I am getting a sense that we are dealing with paid US PSYOP operatives whose mission is to use the social media to try to put the Kremlin under pressure with these endless accusations of weakness and selling-out.”
That psyop is actually directed at people in the west, to demoralize those who view Russia in a positive way and is a very well known and long standing zionazi tactic to produce disillusionment among their victims. They’ve used it extensively against Palestinians and against their local neighbours. Now they use it freely against the people of their western colonies to keep them “in their place”.
You are back to your best, comrade Saker.
It was the educated political analysis married to the unparalleled in quality and simplifying technical data military reports which first brought me to your niche. Most the other commentators rooted well away from the traditional mainstream media have a political and or historical understanding yet know very little of the military realities of the situations they write of. For your endeavour in this realm I raise my glass of Russian fire water and salute you.
Cheers, Nagel.
Something else happened that hasn’t been confirmed but is worth mentioning. On the 21st there were sounds of an explosion and reports that some time of missile had been shot towards the sea. If you’re in Tartus that’s east. Locals were quick to tweet and post on fb about what they heard and some claimed to have knowledge the S-300 was used. About an hour later another unconfirmed report came in that a US Global Hawk drone was targeted and shot down with an S-300. No confirmation or follow up on what actually happened until the next day. Local news in California reported that a Global Hawk drone crashed in an accident in a rural mountainous area. Very little details and a generic photo of some smoke near a mountain. Still there was no follow up report on what happened the previous day on the coast in Syria and it remains a mystery and a “coincidence” as to how that same type of drone was reported to have been downed in Syria and ended up in California.
Russia does not respond to US aggression in Syria in a conventional fashion. The common theme between allies (Syria, Iran, Russia) is to continue to fight terrorism which means taking more territory from US proxies and ruining their plans for Syria. I don’t put too much though into Russian diplomatic responses because I know the actual response is on the battlefield. This time it will come in the form of reaching all the way to Deir Ezzor. Russia offering full support to Iran all various paramilitaries that are helping the (after 6 years) over stretched Syrian Army.
Syrian Soldiers Rescue Pilot of Su-22 Fighter Jet Downed by US-Led Coalition
https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201706201054782289-syria-soldiers-rescue-pilot/
Photo of the pilot
http://orientalista.hu/blog-post/nap-kepe-megmenekult-az-amerikaiak-altal-lelott-szir-vadaszgep-pilotaja/
This is not OT, imo, and explains a whole lot of the wider context in which Putin (and tohers) are acting.
“What is really going on?” … this going on.
Over and above all this ‘on the ground operations’. one should also consider, to better understand what Russia and others are dealing with at the global scale, the recent Max Keiser report (RT 1088) with lawyer and filmmaker John Titus (“All the Plenary’s Men”).
An excellent essay in explaining the stupefying corruption at the top — globally — for the Joe. Tone @ the Top and another Enron writ large. Beyond Mussolini’s definition of fascism (the “The marriage of corporation and state & …barely able to slip a cigarette paper between commerce and government.” This time the “State” is a global cabal of unaccountable criminals festering within and across in the banking sector. Here the US Law is failing — and failing us all across the planet badly.
This what the war is about in its entirety.
“All the Plenary’s Men’
https://youtu.be/2gK3s5j7PgA
Prior to watching this film I listened to Gerald Celente’s recent weekly trends review where he’s basically calling WW3 war with Iran. I’m beginning to think he may be more correct than not. And the reasoning for this recent ME tension (&NK) is likely seen in this layer of control from whom Trump and others (of the people’s choosing) take their marching orders. We are not in a good place.
“Gerald Celente – Trends This Week – June 21, 2017”
https://youtu.be/GHsSFdrK7NY
So if I am paid agitprop for being pro stronger response, then riddle me this: how come the USA can threaten nuclear war and even invasion of Cuba, for simply being positioned close to the USA of course because of geography, Cuba which is not even a US territory or ally or anything at all, while kaliningrad- which IS part of Russia and a part of the Russian Federation, which is surrounded by hostile Nato forces in baltics and in poland, is meek about defending its own interests? An f16 was tailing the defense ministers plane!!! Do you realize what the US would have done had that been Cuba or any other country in central America??? There is no mental gymnastics that can get these apologists out of trouble when it comes to comparing apples to apples in comparing cuba to kaliningrad!
et bien, il semblerait que le fait de se savoir “suivi”, “spotté”, “attrapé par un radar”, je ne sais pas comment on dit… n’ai pas eu l’effet escompté sur les pilotes israéliens, qui viennent de bombarder la saa en soutien à aq à quneitra… mais enfin, pour les russes, j’imagine que l’hameçon était un peu gros.
TheDuran carrying an article now from business insider re “what would happen”…..analysis of numbers -types aircraft etc….missiles……etc
This is a great analysis. Thanks. What’s been left out, though, is where are the SAA air defense forces? It’s my understanding they field older, but still very capable, S200 systems (missile complexes, as the Russians call them. And, didn’t the Russians transfer S300 batteries to Syria, sometime in the past 24 months? Are their air defense systems full integrated, as the Russians’ are?
Are Syrian air defense units intentionally standing down? Have they been placed under Russian command? I’ve read they’ve taken some shots at Israeli aircraft and may have brought one or two down. Why are they not attacking “Coalition” aircraft which are attacking them?
If you read RT, ICH, PCR, The Saker and nothing else, you get a constant stream of mostly accurate information pertaining to significant world events with this site providing the military component. With all that information, it is easy to lose perspective as I admit I have on occasion. The above post does an excellent job of clarifying the manner in which Russia chooses to move her pieces on the geostrategic chess board.
Saker, I love you bro and I love your calm always steady analysis except I do think your Trump analysis has been the most spotty of your ruminations.
How so?
Cheers,
The Saker
This is fake news. One article on this subject said that 3 crew members were also killed in the crash of the Global Hawk EQ4.This aircraft is a drone that carries no crew. Why are people lying?? This story has not been carried by any of the major news outlets such as CNN or Fox News. STOP LYING!!!
I saw that too, but the guy’s just simple minded…the Global Hawk does have a crew of three…he’s right, but of course they sit in a comm shelter in occupied Germany, or occupied California, or some dusty base somewheres…
LZ
Yes, it is a great roundup except for one small caveat, the US announcing that they intend to actually occupy a large part of Syria (NB: “large” part of Syria – not just have an airbase or two)
http://en.farsnews.com/newstext.aspx?nn=13960403001130
A Russian military analyst in the article says:
“”Now that the ISIL is on the verge of full collapse and has only small parts under its hold in Raqqa and Mosul cities, the Pentagon has taken the opportunity and increased its forces in Syria to seize control of ISIL’s lost lands,” Andrey Kushkin said.
These Syrian victories are all west of the Euphrates where Russian air forces operate.
What is coming in this new statelet can only make us shudder.
They always get away with it. They just take over someone else’s land and kill the people. Demonic brute force.
They always get away with it — until they don’t. Even if gains are seemingly “given away” in negotiations, remember that the game is longer than you might think.
Just a small technical correction on a rather excellent article:
“he knows that he is being tracked, but he has no way of knowing if a missile has already been launched against him or not.”
In fact, there is, as many aircraft are equipped with Missile Approach Warning System (MAWS):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_approach_warning_system
Bad ol´d Vlad is secretly planning the takeover of Deir esZoor and the regions west of the Euphrates till the iraqi border.
Then he will simply await for the outcome of the ”face saving” US operation in Racqua city, which is being pursued along with Kurds.
Then, the bad satanic witty Vlad has two options:
–He either backs up Turkey against the US and the Kurd state in the region
or
–the usual US treason towards Kurds occurs, he backs them for a compromise of an autonomous state with Syria.
Do not know if this has been noted;
Also, uncertain as to how much weight to be provided to this briefing but it certainly reflects a change in tone towards the Syrian govt:
https://www.sott.net/article/354705-No-partition-of-eastern-Syria-US-welcomes-Syria-destroying-ISIS
Latest cute trick is to make it crypto-clear (use politspeak) to “threaten” to (gasp!) “discover” that it was “a chemical weapons attack” if any Syrian (or RuF) bombs, or perhaps even fly, west of river E – thus trying to ground Syrian and RuF air forces…
Ivan surely sees this for a gambit, and I bet it has zero effect on Syria or RuF or Hezb or Iran…but we shall soon see…
moonofal has I rather think, got a good solid opinion, well grounded, and valid…
http://www.moonofalabama.org/2017/06/white-house-says-it-will-fake-chemical-weapon-attacks-in-syria.html#more
FRAGMENT QUOTE:…The announced fake “chemical attack” and the “retaliation” it is supposed to justify will likely ha “ppen in the south-west of Syria around Deraa where all recent attempts by Israel and the U.S. supported Takfirs to dislodge the Syrian government forces have failed. The provocation, now prepared and announced by Macron and the White House and supported by the UK, is likely planned to happen sho…”
You get the idea…they’re gunna attack again…and they evidently imagine that, as they themselves are quoted as saying (elsewhere) “The Russians will never stand up to us.”.
Well, no plan survives first contact, meantime I’ll go back to watching the Red Army liquidate the nazis the first time ’round…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUFHAYCAD70&list=ELlzBS5WrPu4s&index=16
Pax
LZ
Hi Saker!
Perhaps there is another factor in this, showing how disrupted US operations are. Two days ago Welt reported that the US allegedly knows of an upcoming chemical attack by the Syrian government and has warned of a forceful reaction. Is this an open call to the terrorists to carry a false-flag attack, with the promise that the US will “utilize” it?
There are many ways to read this. The one that is relevant here is that it could show the disarray of US covert operations in Syria following the military successes of Syria and its allies. And it could also show how scared CIA assets are to walk into a meeting with the terrorists to plan a false-flag attack, knowing that the next Kalibr missile volley could target their meeting!
Thus, the US has to relay its messages to the terrorists via the media!
What do you think?…
I Fully agree! There is a relentless Cunning in the Russian soul, probably inherited from the Romans, (transmitted by the Byzantines), which is what kept the Roman Empire alive, through three Milennia, despite the Endless threats and series of crisis accosting them! Not surprisingly Russia views itself as the extension of Rome.
Dear Saker.,
I read that there are Jews, I suppose rabbis, hunting for things in Palmyra and that they are protected by Russian soldiers.
I would so much like to know what you think about that. It seems to me that, having looted Iraq of the antiquities – which belong to all ankind – the Jews now intend t loot Syria and then pretend that other people’s history is theirs, as they have done for centuries.
Did you know the hero myth about Sargon the Great who, as a new born, because a Tyrant was looking for him to kill him, was placed in a basket and sailed down the River TIGRIS and his basket came to rest in the reeds at the bottom of the Palace garden and the baby was rescued and brought up in the Palace and grew up to become Sargon the Great,
The story about Moses is actually Sargon’s story with the history of Hammurabi and his inscribing The Law on stone.
What do you think about t?
http://www.theeventchronicle.com/study/israeli-archaeologists-palmyra-seeking-jewish-antiquities/