By Tarik in the Vineyard
Today I’ll spare you, I’ll keep it short, sweet… and sour.
I want to talk about Bitcoin. Don’t worry I wont try to convert anyone either way. I mean, there’s no denying it was(is?) an exceptional opportunity to amass literally obscene fortunes, if you new what you were doing, or just lucky enough to have jumped in at the right time, even after the latest killer’s correction. And it might, and probably will, provide still substantial appreciation, at least as long as the printing presses continue to flood the streets. Possibly reach the 1M mark or higher, at current rate of US$, Euro, etc… issuance, who knows. So if it worked out for you, by all means continue doing what works best for you. If I may just venture one advice: make sure you have a solid exit strategy.
Which brings me to my topic of interest and the possible ramification it may imply. Every aspect of Bitcoin, particularly in its function as currency, has been so extensively debated across the www, with such fine points expressed on both side of the divide, that we might as well call it a draw, or continue arguing ad nauseam. Except this one point that in all these years I have never ever seen mentioned, except once in a barely one line sentence thrown in as if in passing, or a slip of the tong, in a long article by Mr. Matthew Piepenburg. I know the gentleman to be of impeccable intellectual integrity, so I must attribute the “lightheartedness” of his comment to a lapse of judgment in the excitement of the moment, or something. Because indeed it is the one unassailable argument that single-handedly demonstrate that BTC can never be a stable, long term, currency and store of value. I’m not saying it cannot be used as currency, just that it’s an invitation for troubles.
The weird thing, is that the very first time I heard of Bitcoin, I immediately saw it, bright as the sun in a clear blue sky; yet for some reason completely obfuscated from public awareness. Anyways, we’ll come back to it further down, for now let’s cut to the chase.
For the sake of argument, imagine an exclusive Bitcoin world where total BTCs in circulation equals x, and a constant economic production of P. Let A be the average price of all goods traded. We therefore have:
A=x/P
Let’s further imagine A=10
Now if we introduce a new BTC chain in all ways identical to the original, that we’ll call BTC2 distinct from the original BTC1. Because they’re identical, both have the same limit set at x. Therefore average price now is:
A=2x/P
If A was previously equal to 10, we now have A=2(10)=20
You’ve just halved the purchasing power of BTC1, or conversely, produced a 100% inflation rate in one fell swoop, and incidentally discredited the notion of its limited supply, on which the whole idea stands.
Theoretically nothing could prevent you from adding BTC3, 4, 5, etc… with a resulting geometric progression of A.
What might not be geometric, however, is the rate of creation of new BTC chains, I mean it’s just infinitely reproducible code. And that would translate into real time exponential progression of A.
Well, as I said, it’s the theory. Yet 13 years later I’m still waiting for that elusive BTC2, leaving me feeling like an ornithologist stalking a Dwarf Cassowary (just watched a documentary).
It is really, really puzzling! Or am I missing something? After all, it’s by far the easiest way to reproduce the fantastical performance of Bitcoin, regardless of other cryptos’ merits. Why hasn’t anyone thought of it still? As if there was a collective will to protect BTC1 from direct competition, which would have undoubtedly exposed its poor suitability as a currency.
Consider: if all tulips were say, white. Would it ever have turned into a mania? How far would prices have been bid up, if all we had was more white tulips hitting the market? Was it not necessary to introduce blue, red, purple, magenta, etc… for the mania to take hold? Does this explain (at least in part) the thousand shapes and forms (colors) of cryptos, instead of just stalking up BTC iterations (white)?
Technically, the argument holds, but practically it leaves me scratching my head, and with still more questions. Wasn’t BTC allegedly created by some mysterious, unidentifiable loner for the benefit of all us sheeple? (I instinctively freeze when I hear the sound of that). So how could the entire Crypto population censor itself so uniformly? Not a single one of them greedy enough to introduce BTC2? That would be a first!
Stunning!
Or was it that BTC was too well protected patent wise? But this is public domain stuff, then who holds the patents? And don’t these things have an expiration date? Does it even matter when billions are involved?
I was thus perplexed until the sector’s market cap reached the trillions. That, in my eyes, upgraded it from a mere curiosity, to a system relevant status. I immediately considered the money circuitry, because that’s what I do in those circumstances, it’s like ingrained behavior. And everything clicked… at some level at least.
I’ve talked in my previous article how important it is to suckle up excess liquidity from the street to conceal true inflation, and even more so to divert it from going into gold, for the sustainability of the dollar reserve system; especially since China and others have put a damper in its accumulation.
BTC from the start was sold basically as a more efficient alternative to gold. Those trillions worth of cryptos contribute both, to relieve street inflation and divert demand off gold. Most acquisitions and trades in cryptos are done through dedicated exchange platforms. Since very little coins are used in direct peer to peer (commercial) transaction, most (or a good chunk anyway) of the money invested remains in clients’ account held with the crypto exchanges, at least as long as the bull is alive, just shuffling hands within those microcosms. Those client funds are collectively placed in T-bills and possibly other financial assets, thus fueling the very system it is purported to protect against. The larger the sector and the more individual cryptos are “successful”, the better dollar (and other currencies) sponge it becomes. It eerily reminds me of another scheme previously highlighted with respect to ETFs, where the public, in its short term naivety, is taken for a long term ride.
So? Could Bitcoin be some Government/banker protected shadow project? Or was it just recuperated from “Satoshi Nakamoto”? Or is it all coincidence? All I can point to is circumstantial evidences and “cui bono”. Now I’m not saying the entire sector is a scam, there are certainly some economically useful application to crypto technology. But just as with Internet tech previously (and countless other sector manias), by far and large it is speculative, or shall I say gambling money chasing Unicorns.
Anyways, I thought I should share some of those thoughts, if only to remind ourselves there’s usually more lurking underneath every story; and also in hope that someone can solve for me the mystery of the missing BTC2?
Btc2 is not Btc1 … introduce a new element with identical physical properties to Gold … call it Gold2 … it is still not Gold.. it may be useful in the same and may become coveted or not… but it does not increase the amount of Gold.
If you want to look further at other cryptos that both improves the technology AND has a significant user base, review Monero (XMR) .. the main improvement? Privacy
See the pinned message on the Inter Slava Z teleram channel… Monero is how that channel takes donations.. but how much? and who from? Nobody knows… and they only know the amount donated.. not who donated it.
I’ve often thought Bitcoin was a scam and now believe it’s a distraction to get people away from buying precious metals of gold and silver. Today I can see the scam as a deception for many are about to loose everything they have in digital money when the power goes off and we are reduced to a barter system, thanks to EMP or worse.
The other problem with cryptos is the political system. As long as the BIS/IMF cartel is in existence – as it will continue to be, considering the proposed ‘Zone B’ BRICS currency has been announced as a partnership with the IMF – cryptos cannot be a general use currency without the blessing of the money cartel. Either cryptos (or perhaps just one CBDC?) will be controlled by the money cartel or banned if they pose an actual threat to the money cartel.
After all these years, cryptos are still largely volatile speculative vehicles with limited utility, therefore not real currencies. The fact that they are mostly not banned indicates they are not a threat to the money cartel. Your hypothesis that cryptos assist the money cartel in suppressing the price of PMs answers the question, Cui bono?
“The proposed ‘Zone B’ BRICS currency has been announced as a partnership with the IMF”…
Source????
BRICS doesn’t want a new system, they want equality within the old system. Disappointing, but it is what it is:
29-Jun-2022
Feng Xingke is the secretary-general of Center for BRICS and Global Governance (CBGG), secretary-general of the World Financial Forum (WFF).
“The BRICS countries should strive for more governance rights under the existing framework of international financial cooperation, such as voting rights in the IMF”
“It is in the common interest of the world and the BRICS countries that the IMF and the World Bank resume normal policy operations in Russia.”
https://news.cgtn.com/news/2022-06-29/BRICS-and-diversification-of-the-international-monetary-system–1bgbcX2ae3u/index.html
Attempts to introduce BTC2 has been done several times, some of the most known are BCH and BSV (who’s creator actually claims he is Satoshi!). All have failed.
Here is why: you can take the BTC code and copy/fork it as many times as you like, but if the chain doesn’t receive support from miners who ensure the integrity and security of the chain, it won’t go anywhere. This is exactly what has happened to all the copycats hoping to ride on BTC’s narrative.
BTC remains the most secure network and ppl trust it with billions.
I’ve been in this space for many years and have made very good money, but what attracted me in the first place was not the fast riches but the concept of self banking outside of any gov controlled system. With crypto assets I can travel anywhere in the world while retaining full control over my assets and not having to declare them to any customs dep.
Repressive governments can not seize my assets for expressing my views or refuse to be vaccinated etc.
This is the fundament of the cypherpunk movement which ppl tend to miss. It’s a hedge against repression but not necessarily inflation.
Seizure of your crypto assets could be implemented via traditional “rubber-hose cryptoanalysis”.
And if USA government (or rather oligarchy) really wanted to kill Bitcoin (or any other given cryptocurrency), there’s a trivial way: use the force!
See also https://www.unqualified-reservations.org/2013/04/bitcoin-is-money-bitcoin-is-bubble/ (and links from there).
That is the weakness of BTC – the thugs can discover that you have it. Financial privacy is vital.
Monero (XMR) is the 2nd generation of BTC … fixes many of the minor issues, and the major issue of privacy.
Plus, the most important thing for any currency…it has a decent user base. The bigger the user base, the stronger any currency is.
Governments who control a particular zone, who want to switch to digital currency, can mandate their preferred digital currency for all transactions in the zone and can ban everything else. For transactions in the zone, a law change like this stands to pop the cryptocurrency bubble. Governments have not gone so far as to do this yet, but this does not mean that they won’t. They could. Maybe they don’t see cryptocurrency as a threat. Maybe they are happy cryptocurrency depresses the price of gold. Maybe smugglers who like cryptocurrency continually give a few corrupt politicians a cut. Maybe governments are letting the details of the features of cryptocurrency evolve, so that they have some idea of what features of digital currency work best. Israel is already banning cash transactions on the flimsy pretense that this reduces crime. Cryptocurrency was made for smuggling. How much easier would it be for governments to argue that banning it reduces crime? Governments will pop the cryptocurrency bubble sooner or later.
In a multipolar world, smugglers between zones may keep cryptocurrency viable, but their interest is only transaction by transaction. They don’t need cryptocurrency as an investment. They also constitute small number of enormously wealthy kingpins already engaged in conspiracy to commit crime. What is to stop a small cabal of wealthy smugglers from faithfully preferring one brand of cryptocurrency, only to pump it and dump it, all of a sudden, and switch to a different brand of cryptocurrency?
Long term investment in cryptocurrency means relying on governments and criminals not to pop a bubble that is in their best interest to pop.
Sorry Jonas, BCH and BSV are forks, not copies. There are forks because BTC has changed the recipe and BSV and BCH did not want those changes. BTW, BSV is the original BTC – no changes except block size which brings the transaction costs down to fractions of a penny.
BCH and BSV may not succeed, but that is probably due to momentum, popularity and marketing…not functionality.
By creating Bitcoin 2, you would start a new blockchain with zero users. It would not automatically tap into the reservoir of existing original Bitcoin users.
In my opinion, as per the absurd hash calculation requirements, Bitcoin is designed to be controlled and augmented by computing power, hence by pre-existing real-world capital. The hope of making money by calculating a valid hash may have drawn in a certain number of people in the beginning. But as far as I understand, the creation of a Bitcoin drug market is what made it popular.
https://stackoverflow.com/a/67090776
I think it is absolutely possible to start a new bubble called BC2 but it would not automatically inherit the userbase and the valuebase of BTC.
The reason you’ve never seen anyone addressing your concern is that it reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of what BTC is. There is no possibility of a BTC2 issue with Bitcoin, because any such BTC2 even if it were based on identical rules, would not be BTC. Bitcoin is simply a completely transparent and instantly verifiable ledger. Every transaction that has ever occurred on the BTC blockchain is traceable and verifiable in “trustless” fashion (no need for any third party).
Any attempt by anyone to try to import fraudulent bitcoins onto the blockchain is impossible. All bitcoin nodes would immediately reject any such transaction. Because the BTC blockchain provides a fixed supply of coins, and because the structure of the bitcoin code itself makes any counterfeiting scheme impossible, BTC is without doubt the hardest money ever created.
“BTC is without doubt the hardest money ever created.”
Except for the very minor problem of its extremely limited acceptance as legal tender, and its wild fluctuations in value in just the last 12 months. Other than that, harder than adamant.
“particularly in its function as currency” – and here lies the main problem with the Bitcoin and its brethren. They were never used as currency (except that notorious buy of a pizza with Bitcoin back in 2009) – they’re used as speculative investment asset. It’s price (I won’t call it value – it’s intrinsic value is exactly zero) in terms of fiat currencies is determined solely by rumors and lies. Pretty much like the price of the stocks and bonds.
The idea of Bitcoin as currency is to have currency outside the current fiat regime and completely out of control of teh world-wide banking cartel. That idea fell, when the people started to measure the price of Bitcoin in fiat currencies. At that point, the only thing that Fed needed to do, if it considered cryptocurencies a threat to its regime (which it doesn’t, BTW), is simply to create enough currency units by clicks on keyboard in order to pump the BTC’s USD price out of reach of the ordinary people.
Sure, there are some early adopters (the so called HODLers) who’re full of joy that their HODLings are raising in “value”, but here is the trick question – since the big players in the finance would never adopt the BTC as currency, what is the actual value of what you hold? I mean, sooner or later you’ll have bills and taxes to pay and if you can’t cash out – the value of those HODLings is precisely zero.
Many people peddle the BTC to be the digital version of gold, but the truth is that a more appropriate metaphor is to view them as the common stocks of a company like Google – the cryptos are traded in a remarkably similar fashion – but without the company behind those stocks.
BTC can’t possibly ever be out of the reach of ordinary people, because each bitcoin is divided into 100,000,000 satoshis. It’s is very possible that in the future 1 BTC could be worth a small fortune in terms of fiat currencies, but that won’t mean it’s not an excellent store of value, irrespective of fiat currencies hyperinflating against BTC. BTC’s nearly infinite divisibility is just one way in which it is more convenient than gold, which can’t be instantly converted to smaller units.
Yes, the people who understood the promise of BTC as a future truly sound monetary base and who have hodl’ed bitcoin through ups and downs might become very wealthy (and, yes, some speculators will do well, too; they always do). It’s hodl’rs who are doing the heavy lifting for everyone by believing in, and through their support, helping spur the viral adoption curve that is the only way bitcoin will ultimately succeed. BTC is a pathbreaking technological achievement. Hodl’rs are early adopters. The “success” of bitcoin would benefit everyone.
Bitcoin has lost the war at the moment the people started to think of its “value” in terms of fiat currencies. It was an excellent dream turned into nightmare by those who entered crypto to make a quick buck.
Indeed, each bitcoin could be divided in 100,000,000 satoshis. And so what? Have you checked recently the TX fees that one must pay in order for his/her transaction to go through fast? Like it or not, it won’t be adopted widely. And it could be “store of value” only if you’re sure that you can find someone else, who would value it and is willing to accept. And, unfortunately, the big players in the finances, those who actually control the governments, have no use of it. Why they would adopt BTC instead of their own, controlled by the CBDC?
Disclaimer ;-) : used to be a HODLer myself. Got rid of the BTCs five years ago, when its price, measured in fiat, started to climb to high, too fast – a signature of a bubble. Bought my first 10 gold coins with the proceeds and never regretted my decision.
“BTC’s nearly infinite divisibility is just one way in which it is more convenient than gold, which can’t be instantly converted to smaller units.”
Yes, because dealing with 0.0000000000012 of a bitcoin is way more convenient than any current form of fiat.
Bitcoin evangelists, like the EV monkeys and the drug legalization clowns, can never just offer their personal religion up a possible alternative, warts and all, that could maybe help some Nope, it’s always a panacea, the cure for everything that ails us. it isn’t and it never will be.
Well at least somebody understands.
BTC2 isn’t missing.
All the other cryptos are “BTC2”.
In all of recorded history, harder money has come to be accepted by man over less hard money. That is what we are living through, a technological progression. Those in control of the money printing presses will fight it, so expect a rocky ride but whatever you do, do NOT have no bitcoin.
Imaging defunding those who can print unlimited money to fund wars.
I was going to say the same thing. There must be 10,000 forks of BTC by now. Dogecoin is BTC2.
Most of the forks make little changes to the code, and only a few of them have been widely adopted. Of course, lack of adoption makes a cryptocoin worthless…
A few commenters have mentioned Monero. Not a bad choice. Kraken has a list of popular ones
https://www.kraken.com/prices?quote=USD
Disclaimer: I am currently nocoin. My comment is $0, and worth the price.
“I’ve been in this space for many years and have made very good money”
Herein lies the problem – in the “crypto” space all that matters is “coin go up”, and “when moon?”
Bitcoin was originally designed to be peer to peer digital cash, with nearly non-existent fees, massive scalability and worldwide adoption. What has instead happened is that Bitcoin was co-opted by moneyed interests who saw fit to railroad the technology, and relegate it to a literal ponzi scheme.
Digital Currency Group, with the backing of Mastercard infiltrated the development team that Satoshi (Craig Wright) left the task of managing the code (namely Gavin Andresen). What happened next is a long and convoluted story, but Bitcoin became Segwit coin, a non-scalable, power hungry, high fee network that could never reach wide scale adoption since it is anchored by a small block prison that limits transactions to 7 per second.
Mastercard operates at between 5,000 to 10,000 transactions per second, Bitcoin, as originally designed would scale into the millions of transactions per second, directly out competing the credit card companies. Is there any wonder why Mastercard would wish to co-opt this emerging technology?
Promises of BTC scaling rely on second layer off-chain “solutions” like Lightning Network, which is entirely unworkable, opens up endless security flaws, and creates reliance on third parties to manage the network. How anyone can suggest Lightning network as a scalability solution with a straight face is either entirely ignorant of what Bitcoin actually is, or is part of the criminal ruse.
Let’s be clear, BSV and BCH are not forks of Bitcoin, BTC (Bitcoin Core) is a fork of BSV the original protocol, which scales right now to over 50,000 transactions per second, has fees of less than a fraction of a cent, has unlimited block size capacity, and is a true peer to peer network that does not need nodes, or second layers “solutions” to place themselves in between transactions.
Bitcoin was NEVER intended to be “outside the system” as some tool of the anarchists to overthrow the government, it was intended to be a lawful means of peer to peer money exchange. The irony here is that Bitcoin Core enthusiasts are the ones now pushing for BTC futures contracts, getting loan financing from Goldman Sachs and company, and have entirely become banking establishment cretins – the very same group that spoke of changing the world with Bitcoin, by democratizing money and all that…..
With BTC if someone steals your coins you have no recourse or mediation process to get them back, in the original Bitcoin (BSV) there is/was an alert system, and the transaction could be reversed if a court adjudicates it. How can BTC become world money if there is no recourse in the law to recover stolen funds? Maybe the anarchists can let us all know.
The good news is that Craig Wright has decided to take back his technology, and slowly the world will come to realize that Segwit coin (BTC Core) is a bloated dinosaur that cannot scale, consumes ungodly amounts of energy – where only 2 transactions consume 1 megawatt hour of energy!!! BSV (the original protocol) is 3000x more efficient, will scale to millions and even billions of transactions per second, welcomes lawful integration into existing systems and will act as a mechanism of freedom for the worlds poorest people, allowing them to transact with a near zero fee network, opening up untold opportunities for micro lending and economic incentives to invest in the financially under-served.
For those who don’t know, this is Satoshi Nakamoto:
https://youtu.be/w9368v-Vvxk
BSV believer here too. Craig Wright is Satoshi Nakamoto. BSV costs (fractional cents) and scaleablity are the future.
What about the security issues with BSV though😐How can it ever act as mechanism for freedom etc as you say when attackers can go in and reorganize blocks????
(Conversation fork / off topic)
Once upon a time, I bought a crypto coin from BlockStack, in order to look at and test their secure application platform. That’s the full extent of my crypto-coin experience. That coin, last I checked is practically worthless -definitely worth less than what I had paid for it so many years ago.
It’s difficult to think of Bitcoin without thinking about two of the most prominent evangelists: Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert. Their show, The Keiser Report, hosted by RT, was a very popular one and a favorite of mine until, at the halfway-point, the show would often switch from financial/economic analysis to pro-Bitcoin discussions… at which time, I would usually quit watching the the episode.
It was strange to me that, after a lost tweet from Stacy claiming that China would turn on Russia, the show disappeared. It was only today that I read of a possible explanation of this in an article explaining that Stacy and Max succumbed and buckled under the pressure of Russophobia. That article may be found here: https://thedeepdive.ca/max-keiser-deletes-pro-russia-tweets-quits-russia-today/
Aside from the pro-Bitcoin nature of that show, it is very much missed. If anyone knows of Stacy’s strange tweet, I hope you will let me know. Since it wasn’t pro-Russian, perhaps she did not delete it.
The only alternative for me to that show is the King World News blog. Maybe there’s something better.
I found the tweet I was looking for. So far, it has not aged well.
Stacy Herbert: “China will turn on Russia soon” (Feb 28, 2022)
https://twitter.com/stacyherbert/status/1498445080079867907
From the previous day…
Stacy Herbert: “We quit because of the invasion but we were planning on exiting anyway” (Feb 27, 2022)
https://twitter.com/stacyherbert/status/1498011567593504773
It isn’t the token or the algorithm, but the network. Think of Facebook. Why not Facebook 2 or 3 or 10 Facebooks? Meta makes billions of ad revenues, surely there are competitors, surely the Meta code would be easy to replicate.
Why no Facebook 2? It is the network.
bitcoin was never intended as a tool for speculation. what makes it viable is its complete disconnection from any banking system making it truly P2P, no need for banking middle men taking their cut, nobody to take it away. If you used it to speculate you deserve what you got (good or bad)
There really is no such thing as crypto currency, there is bitcoin and there are thousands of other ‘coins’ being used by banks and financial backers of current fiat system, just like fiat and controlled by people outside and above you (who can deprive you of it at any moment) Bitcoin still stands on its own, truly public ledger of all transactions, the idea is still relevant and will still continue in some form (it was only ever a small part of available currency) In a post capitalist, post western world (or post complete crash, post war world) as a direct trade mechanism between 2 or more individuals. Any transaction based tool only has the validity that it is given either by the society it belongs to or a set of people who agree to accept it has value. Bitcoin is dangerous precisely because govts cannot control it which is why they have tried to demonise it, misinform and probably to manipulate it via speculation (pump and dump) its still around and worth a lot more than when it first appeared, it will be interesting to see how/if it develops. Those Russians who used bitcoin for trade are not affected by sanctions of course, this has come in very handy for cross borders tech workers and the likes of youtubers who have had their assets frozen by the west. They have no access or power to control bitcoin.
If history of money can teach us anything it might have been that wealthy people tend to keep the good money and let the bad money start its wild journey among folks. Gold has lost its value during last 120 years but shares of stock markets have gone up nominal value on average annually 8%.
Deep State would have never accepted any revolutionary monetary rivals. So it was likely just another pyramid scheme. My guess. I have detached house, small area forest, little bit gold (rings and wife has his necklaces) , shares, book entries and some money on bank account (rottening just like we all now). Speculating has never been my strengths (or weaknesses). I more likely plant apple trees and harvest sallad and tomatoes than speculate.
The word coin-cidence made me smile. I thought crypto was a more honest alternative for banks, but now it’s just a trade item on the stock exchange (instead of a currency to pay with in the normal economy). The money eaters are always hungry and never satisfied.
MAX & STACY REPORT
https://www.youtube.com/c/orangepill/videos
BTC was probably designed by the US intel services. The technology behind it is already completely outdated. Privacy and scalabilty have still to be solved and these fixes won’t be possible on the current blockchain. What idiot would use BTC to trade if he owned a company? Anyone can see what funds are flowing into your account. If there is any future with Cryptos it is with the privacy coins that were developed later and incorporated privacy from their very inception. Scalibilty and usability are still issues though but the solution is far better than BTC. XMR is the coin of choice by far on the dark net. Last time I checked if you want to use Monero in a moderately secure way, peer to peer, the blockchain was over 90 GB and having the blockchain on a device you control is the most important security aspect you will need to consider. There’s no point in having a smart phone wallet that connects to a third party that hosts the blockchain as the privacy of your transaction is already compromised. Really you’re going to need go through a lot of hoops to make your transactions secure and few people have the time, interest, or knowledge to do this so I would be quite skeptical of the entire thing.
There’s a problem to use two currencies if used with the same backing, universally. If a new currency is established old definitions have to be understood and erased from history books.
Your example resembles a fiat system.
Old definitions:
Fiat Dollar – Involves theft of another’s currency standard (i.e. oil, grain, perpetual war/human lives for slavery, Gold) to establish a credit market. This market is lent to others for profit by usury fee: as interest on loans, or a quid-pro-quo paper currency issued at a deflated rate to others (most “desirable”).
War – considered essential to cover “appropriation” on a grand scale. Defending oneself is not considered war.
Oil & Food – valuable universal commodity
Labor Unit – essential service; large disparity for work of same value across international border.
Usury system – interest fees, inflation, taxes; allows large socio-economic class disparity
Your Hypothetical Situation:
1. BTC1 /within national boundary/ BTC2 // GOLD… (think BTC1 & 2 = USD & CNY for eg.):
– possible, but why for? It creates “economic” boundary within a sovereign country to compete with same gold standard. Disparity will require usury fee to correct “imbalance” = same old fiat dollar.
2. BTC1 /across international boundary/ BTC2 // GOLD:
– same value but different name, why for?
Solution: BTC 1x/2x/3x
– Think same money, issued at different increments of value e.g.: BTC1x for 1 labor unit, BTC2x for 2/1 labor units, etc.
– requires control or allows “barter” e.g. you paint my house, I fix your fridge ( common labor 1x / advanced, skilled labor 2x)
New Definitions
Gold Standard Currency – a “commodity” metal used for representing universal demand and value. Food, service, commodity, also carry similar demand and value.
– A currency is established to represent value of the universal standard by weight or volume.
– Eliminates inflation by negating the practice of transferring devalued currency across borders, to balance a net import economy. Paper, digital, or other currency templates all carry same value.
War – why? everyone has same Gold standard of equal value and measure
Oil & Food – same universal commodity of equal value. (eliminates wars?)
Labor Unit – equal value for same work, anywhere. Of course, those not able are taken care of. (eliminates wars and… vaxx???)
Usury system – interest fees, inflation, taxes; gone. Socio-economic class distinctions fade, become obscure and merge. (eliminates poverty?)
This is “brainstorming” if you will, presented as condensed examples.
Simplicity is key to establish basic principles of a new style economy. Out with old definitions.
“Equality” may become the operative word.
I had this discussion with someone almost 10 years ago explaining why it will not happen. Liquidity. It is the same reason that there is ONE Ebay and a bunch of other auction sites no one gives a damn about. You actually in fact DO have copycat bitcoin altcoins, and there value is not there. You could theoretically post the identical bitcoin blockchain on an alt set of servers hoping to create a new coin, but no one is going to post to it because it is not the main chain, where there is liquidity. Ethereum only challenges bitcoin because it is fundamentally a different type of coin that has uses that are not possible with bitcoin. But it still does not have have the liquidity and value bitcoin does. And for those of you that follow markets, that is why 3rd world companies want to list on the NYSE and Nasdaq over exchanges in their own markets.
Yes it would be better if BTC were in fact actually used for P2P more than it is, but I think maybe we’re asking too much of a new technology. Remember when the Internet was a fool’s game? I do. And at first it was just that, but it eventually changed the world. Give BTC more time. It might surprise you.
In the meantime, there is no other way that you can better move large sums of money across international borders anonymously than BTC. Think about that, and how it might come in handy some day.
Oh BTW-the author’s note about how the BTC holdings are merely being used and abused by the banksters, while not entirely wrong, is true only for that protion of the total holdings which are on the exchanges-a large sum, to be sure, but most HODLRs keep there coins in cold wallets where no Bankster can snoop.
Thanks, @ Sundance.
Tarik appears to be somewhat confused. The idea of a “BTC2” that can then issue “counterfeit” BTC that would dilute the BTC supply and be accepted as authentic BTC doesn’t work.
***The Bitcoin Network*** is physically separate, isolated, and “protected” — in the electronic sense of separate mining and node machines. The BTC Network’s machines are distinct from any forked or copied network’s machines and thus secure from any other network issuing any coin that would be accepted as genuine BTC. Even if you started with the current block and used the identical code base it would still be a separate network and its token/coin would be distinct and distinguished from BTC, and no exchange would trade it under the BTC symbol. Thus BTC is secure and cannot be counterfeited.
It’s odd that Tarik doesn’t understand that. But then, there’s a lot of misunderstanding going around about how cryptos work.
“BTC2” – are you talking about a parallel universe? If something is so obvious but no one else realizes it, maybe you are overlooking something?
I remembe the early days of Bitcoin. ‘Phonestar’ promoting it on ZH until he got banned.
Though of mayby bying 100 coins to learn more hands on about the system, but found them to expensive. They where more than a $ pr coin. Though I wait it out until they settled down to parity again. Well … it didn’t happen :)
Think the whole crypto sphere is a combo of prototyping, ponzi and speculation. Money is already electronic, so I think it will be adopted by govenments at some point. Will enter a new dimention in economics on many levels. It will be possible to study the flow of money through the system like electronic current, where each electron is unique and can be traced around. Every individual an electric component, every organisation a sub-system.
There only 21 million possible bitcoin in original program, but now there are many program. Of course copy programs “not valuable” but original is because so many people agree it is, no other reason. Makes sense, not! Why call it coin? Is just hash. Coin is real, metal, durable. Hash is just data on easily erased disk. Oops, lost password, bitcoin inaccessible forever, goodbye! Seems like fraud in words, who else likes word fraud?
Outside of “Satoshis” share, all “bithash” are trading and priced in dollars.
The people whom it “threatens” can print infinite dollars, but don’t need to because all of bitcoin is still less than one year USA gdp.
Oops, cornered market very easy.
With current big 17% inflation, electricity and hardware cost will exceed value of transaction fee.
But don’t worry, is not cult. They just don’t understand, is not a phase!
I see no mention of BTC Cash, which is, in effect, BTC @. I did not read all comments, so maybe it has been raised, but all one need do is look at how that has tracked. It is a separate entity that tracks roughly to BTC but at a lower price.
if you create a new fork your going to have to create a new network for it to run on. so no you cant just fork it and replace the largest decentralized network on the planet.
Tariq-you have identified a good paradox-but you have missed an essential detail.
Actually there are bitcoin2, bitcoin 3, ….., bitcoinN. Its just with different names. Like ETH, USDC, BNB etc. Check full list and trading values here.
https://www.coinlive.com/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_campaign=o-cryptocurrency%20list-e-ox-ggl-cpc-139200801560-g–{campaign_id}
The problem however, which you have correctly identified, is the total quantity and velocity of money in monetary theory. Ideally, for currency’s value to appreciate/depreciate there should me corresponding increase/ decrease in productivity.
There is no corresponding production representing collective outstanding crypto value. This means two things-both partly correct in my opinion.
i. The currency stocks that have been converted to cryptocurrency were and are now basically off the book production, not accounted for in production statistics (i.e ill gotten gains, criminal proceeds etc)
ii. Even the corollary i does not explain continued exponential gain-it should have stabilized after a certain time. This implies another important thing. The underlying statistical modelling in monetary theory that computes value of production, required quantity of money in light of underlying production and velocity of money, are fundamentally inaccurate. I believe this to be true.
And finally, by all economic evaluation, Almost all crypto is over valued and liable to crash-unless there is some uncanny behavioural economic dynamic is at play.
What’s possibly missing in your musing is the idea of incentives. For miners, buyers, speculation to reach a momentum. And there are examples where some success was achieved: Litecoin (only slightly modified Bitcoin codebase) did well and in its wake Dogecoin. Partly achieved by memes, hype and a few improvements over Bitcoin that could provide incentive. Some adoption is not difficult but massive interest is yet another game, combined with longevity: the need to stay long enough in the game to survive all the cycles and keep rising.
re btc versus btc2, consider bitcoin versus litecoin. quoting from an interview:
https://web.archive.org/web/20210116135412/https://taaalk.co/t/bitcoin-maxima-other-crypto-things
“How can one digital cash’s proof of work be greater than another’s?
Let’s compare bitcoin and litecoin. Litecoin is almost exactly the same as bitcoin. Just one line of code is different. Litecoin uses a different algorithm to compute the hash, scrypt instead of sha256. So it’s almost apples to apples.
From coinmarketcap.com, bitcoin currently has about $200B monetary base, and litecoin has $2B, 1% of bitcoin. This means litecoin miners are rewarded at about 1% of the rate of bitcoin miners. So if you are a litecoin miner, it makes sense to spend about 1% as much on hardware and electricity to mine the litecoin. Litecoin has bodyguards, and they are paid pretty well. But bitcoin bodyguards are paid 100X as much, meaning there are 100X as many of them. If the bitcoin bodyguards decide to attack the litecoin bodyguards, it will be a bloodbath.
What an attack would mean in practice is, bitcoin hodlers would buy or rent a large amount of litecoin hardware, equal to or greater than the existing litecoin miner supply. In other words, some bitcoin hodler whales decide to hire their own litecoin bodyguards to murder the existing ones. With greater than 51% of the hash rate, attackers are assured to mine every valid block, controlling the chain. Thus they can harass litecoin users so that they cannot transact in this currency. The hostile litecoin miners controlled by bitcoin whales mine empty litecoin blocks, so no transacting in litecoin can take place. Litecoin crashes in value, you can’t even sell it because with transactions stuck you can’t deposit to an exchange, and eventually no one wants to use it.
This is an expensive attack. But bitcoin hodlers have 100x as much wealth as litecoin hodlers. Destroying litecoin could be seen as a costly but ultimately worthwhile lesson in pain, that by torturing litecoin heretics would ultimately increase the value of bitcoin.”
I hope this explanation helps.
Very interesting! Didn’t read you before posting my latest comment. I’ll have to sit on this and digest it. Thank you.
The author of this article has apparently never heard of the Bitcoin fork wars in 2017 and 2018. Bitcoin Cash is the BTC2 and Bitcoin SV is BTC3.
The effect on price was similar to what the author suggested. The bundle of all three kept about the same value as prior to the forks.
However, that does not even count the several dozen previous Bitcoin clones like Litecoin. Those early clones did not copy the original blockchain, just the software.
Perhaps one should read before writing an article like this.
I’d like to address some of the points raised.
BCH, BSV, etc… as much as I know, do not satisfy the essential condition “in all ways identical”. They each have their little subtleties, variations or quirks (colored tulips). A fiat analogy would be comparing Euros to dollars. Both are fiat but governed by different authorities, jurisdictions, legislation and economies, that determine their perceived relative quality and exchange rates. In cryptos, these variables are replaced by different “coding” that now determine perceived relative quality and exchange rates.
What I mean with BTC2, is the fiat equivalent of having a batch of say dollars with serial numbers starting with “1”, then adding a second batch with serials starting with “2”. The individual bills all have the exact same exchange value (thus interchangeable) irrespective of serial number, since they are governed by the same variables. And so will BTC2 relative to BTC1 under regular market arbitrage processes (I hope I don’t need to go through this) during which the obscene profits are to be made, as long as the Ponzi holds. So my question remains: why did it not happen?
Some have argued: because of some network barrier. I’m not sure I understand. For one there are plenty of crypto exchanges that deal in every shape, why not BTC2? If by network it is meant the community that actually uses it commercially (vs. speculators), their size is relatively very modest still, and therefore I’m not sure how relevant they are. Besides once BTC2 shows signs of life on the Exchanges, there’s no reason they wont be equally lured with BTC2 as they were with the original.
In the same vein we have: “if the chain doesn’t receive support from miners who ensure the integrity and security of the chain, it won’t go anywhere”. If this is true then my first remark would be that a select group has control over its production, integrity and security. That is fishy in its own right. But more to the point, aren’t the miners precisely those with the biggest incentive, and best positioned, to pull a BTC2? Consider how much more expensive (in time and energy) to mine the latest bitcoin compared to a brand new BTC2. Clearly the big money opportunity now lies with the later. Again, why don’t they? I mean, I know one thing about markets, all of them, if there is an opportunity, it will be taken. No matter what. If not, then there’s something highly irregular going on.
Lastly there’s the counterfeiting argument. It doesn’t hold because BTC2 does not interfere in any ways with the original’s blockchain, and therefore do not compromise its integrity. They are digitally distinct, but for all practical intent and purpose identical measures of accounting and fully interchangeable, just like one dollar series with respect to another.
I hope I’ve made myself clearer,
thank you
Tarik re:
“If this is true then my first remark would be that a select group has control over its production, integrity and security.”
from the taaaalk interview link on the archive
with gold: “assaying gold to stop counterfeiters had better be cheaper than digging the gold itself up, or why bother.”
with bitcoin: “you need to compute just one hash to convince yourself that my work was valid. ”
the “work” here might be exahashes (billions of trillions) of hashes, but the verification is done with just hash.
miners perform the work, which is multiple hoover dam levels. but nodes perform the verification, which can be done with a AA battery.
so going back to what you said
“If this is true then my first remark would be that a select group has control over its production, integrity and security.”
miners, with their multi hoover dams, have control over production. but not integrity. those are nodes, which run on AAs.
https://web.archive.org/web/20210116135412/https://taaalk.co/t/bitcoin-maxima-other-crypto-things
seriously, read this. I think it will answer a lot of questions.
Dear Thomas,
I’ve went through your link with great interest. I readily admit some of the technical stuff are a bit out of my league, but I don’t think this will affect the following remarks. If it does, by all means correct me.
The bitcoin bodyguard explanation makes lots of sense. However it strongly suggest collusion between the bitcoin whales, because it’s improbable that in such highly competitive environment one would sacrifice his market share to the benefit of the rest. So basically BTC2 did not appear due to circumstantial conditions, rather than logical ones. Thus, if circumstances change…
Now lets fast forward 10 or 20 years, all fiat currencies have disintegrated and the world has shifted to bitcoins. There’s this common misconception that bitcoin mimics gold because its supply is limited. Actually gold supply is virtually limitless. It’s its rate of increase which is severely constrained, and that is a crucial difference in an expanding economy.
So lets explore the implication of a strictly limited volume of money in a growth environment. First effect: prices will enter a deflationary trend as long as production increases (supply/demand). But as with inflation, the price changes don’t happen uniformly.
Production of manufactured goods can easily be increased. It probably takes on average a year or two to build a new plant for most products, with possibly better production capacity from technological advances. Natural resources are much, much harder to come by. Average time to bring a mine to production is 10-20 years, if it ever proves economically sound. For every successful mine, a thousand or more will fail. It’s really one of the most ungrateful business to venture in.
Key point: manufactured prices will fall quicker than natural resources. This crushes the manufacturer’s profit margins, with no way to balance this differential because they cannot ever raise prices since there’s no spare liquidity in the system. As the crisis mounts, the economy will clamor for more money. By then, whom ever “controls” bitcoin will have to either waiver the 21M cap or introduce BTC2; in both cases the illusion of limited supply is exposed , and the road to hyperinflation wide open. If not, the markets and economy will switch to an alternate currency on their own.
So while bitcoin may appear to solve the inflationary dilemma, it really doesn’t because it neglects the deflationary one. It’s too linear in its concept, when economics require a more circular or yin-yang frame to make sense. What’s funny is that gold naturally solves both paradoxes, without anyone needing to understand how. Obviously there are specific reasons why it does, but this is one subject of my next essay (hopefully), so I’ll try not to cannibalize it here.
Two points:
1) Bitcoin is a derivative for which the underlying asset is services for providing computing power to a computer. The miner undertakes to provide his computer for calculations during the production of transactions. These obligations of miners are exchanged as derivatives. The miner receives payment for services in the same derivatives – bitcoin.
2) Bitcoin is managed by an informal crowdsourcing community. The fact that this community is not registered with state bodies does not negate the fact of its existence. Similar communities are Wikipedia, Linux, Greenpeace, IRA, ETA, etc. This community can be banned by state bodies under the pretext that, although indirectly, it is involved in prohibited activities. After the ban, members of the community who continue to be members of it may be brought to criminal responsibility. This will drastically reduce the number of volunteers and lead to the collapse of the community.
Regarding the use of Bitcoin as a tool for masking inflation – a very interesting thought.
But money is also a derivative. So what is the underlying asset for money? Maybe the answer is in Modern Monetary Theory (MMT)? Government services?