SPIEGEL: Sergey Alexandrovich, NATO is boosting its presence in Eastern Europe in reaction to recent Russian advances. Western politicians have warned that the two sides could stumble into a situation that might result in war. Are such warnings excessive?
Karaganov: I was already speaking of a prewar situation eight years ago.
SPIEGEL: When the war in Georgia broke out.
Karaganov: Even then, trust between the great powers was trending toward zero. Russia began rearming its army and, since then, the situation has worsened considerably. We warned NATO against approaching the borders of Ukraine because that would create a situation that we cannot accept. Russia has stopped the Western advance in this direction and hopefully that means that the danger of a large war in Europe has been eliminated in the medium term. But the propaganda that is now circulating is reminiscent of the period preceding a new war.
SPIEGEL: You are hopefully referring to Russia.
Karaganov: The Russian media is more reserved than Western media. Though you have to understand that Russia is very sensitive about defense. We have to be prepared for everything. That is the source of this occasionally massive amount of propaganda. But what is the West doing? It is doing nothing but vilifying Russia; it believes that we are threatening to attack. The situation is comparable to the crisis at the end of the 1970s and beginning of the 1980s.
SPIEGEL: You are referring to the stationing of Soviet intermediate-range ballistic missiles and the American reaction?
Karaganov: Europe felt weak at the time and was afraid that the Americans might leave the continent. But the Soviet Union, though it had already become rotten internally, felt militarily strong and undertook the foolishness of deploying the SS-20 missiles. The result was a completely pointless crisis. Today, it is the other way around. Now, fears in countries like Poland, Lithuania and Latvia are to be allayed by NATO stationing weapons there. But that doesn’t help them; we interpret that as a provocation. In a crisis, we will destroy exactly these weapons. Russia will never again fight on its own territory …
SPIEGEL: …Rather, if I understand you correctly, you will pursue the strategy of forward defense.
Karaganov: NATO is now 800 kilometers (497 miles) closer to the Russian border, weapons are completely different, strategic stability in Europe is shifting. Everything is much worse than it was 30 or 40 years ago.
SPIEGEL: Russian politicians, including President Vladimir Putin, are trying to convince their population that the West wants war in order to fragment Russia. But that’s absurd.
Karaganov: Certainly there has been some exaggeration. But American politicians have openly said that the sanctions are aimed at bringing about regime change in Russia. That’s aggressive enough.
SPIEGEL: The evening news on Russian television seems to be even further removed from reality. Even a Moscow-based newspaper recently wrote of the “illusion of an external threat.”
Karaganov: The political elite in Russia don’t want domestic reform, they aren’t ready for it. As such, they welcome an external threat. You have to remember that Russia rests on two national concepts: defense and sovereignty. We approach the question of security much more reverentially than other countries do.
SPIEGEL: Your council has presented foreign and defense policy premises that speak of reclaiming a position of leadership in the world. Russia, the message is clear, does not want to see its power eroded. But what proposals have you put forth?
Karaganov: We want to prevent further destabilization in the world. And we want the status of being a great power: We unfortunately cannot relinquish that. In the last 300 years, this status has become a part of our genetic makeup. We want to be the heart of greater Eurasia, a region of peace and cooperation. The subcontinent of Europe will also belong to this Eurasia.
SPIEGEL: Europeans see current Russian policy as being rather enigmatic. The intentions of the leadership in Moscow are unclear.
Karaganov: We currently find ourselves in a situation where we don’t trust you in the least, after all of the disappointments of recent years. And we are reacting accordingly. There is such a thing as tactical surprise. You should know that we are smarter, stronger and more determined.
SPIEGEL: The partial Russian withdrawal from Syria was a surprise, for example. You intentionally left the West guessing how many troops you were withdrawing and whether you would secretly redeploy some of them. Such tactics don’t exactly create trust.
Karaganov: That was masterful, that was fantastic. We take advantage of our preeminence in this area. Russians aren’t good at haggling, they aren’t passionate about business. But they are outstanding fighters. In Europe, you have a different political system, one that is unable to adapt to the challenges of the new world. The German chancellor said that our president lives in a different world. I believe he lives in a very real world.
SPIEGEL: It has been difficult to ignore the Russian pleasure at the problems Europe is currently facing. Why is that?
Karaganov: Many of my colleagues view our European partners with derision and I always warn them not to be cocky and arrogant. Some among the European elite have sought out confrontation with us. As a consequence, we won’t help Europe, although we could do so when it comes to the refugee question. A joint closure of borders would be essential. In this regard, the Russians would be 10 times more effective than the Europeans. Instead, you have tried to make a deal with Turkey. That is a disgrace. In the face of our problems with Turkey, we have pursued a clear, hard political line — with success.
SPIEGEL: You have said that you are disappointed with Europe because it has betrayed its Christian ideals. In the 1990s, Russia wanted to be part of Europe — but the Europe of Konrad Adenauer and Charles de Gaulle.
Karaganov: The majority of Europeans want that Europe too. For the next decades, Europe will not be a model that is attractive to Russia.
SPIEGEL: In its premises, your council demanded the use of military power when “important interests of the country are clearly” threatened. Ukraine was such an instance?
Karaganov: Yes. Or a concentration of troops that we felt posed the risk of war.
SPIEGEL: The stationing of NATO units in the Baltics isn’t sufficient?
Karaganov: This chatter that we intend to attack the Baltics is idiotic. Why is NATO stationing weapons and equipment there? Imagine what would happen to them in the case of a crisis. The help offered by NATO is not symbolic help for the Baltic states. It is a provocation. If NATO initiates an encroachment — against a nuclear power like ourselves — it will be punished.
SPIEGEL: On Wednesday, the NATO-Russia Council is to meet for the second time since the Crimean crisis. You also don’t think that a resumption of this dialogue platform is worthwhile?
Karaganov: It is no longer a legitimate body. Plus, NATO has become a qualitatively different alliance. When we began the dialogue with NATO, it was a defensive alliance of democratic powers. But then, the NATO-Russia Council served as cover for and the legalization of NATO expansion. When we really needed it — in 2008 and 2014 — it wasn’t there.
SPIEGEL: You mean during the Georgian war and the Ukraine conflict. In papers issued by your council, terms like national dignity, courage and honor often appear. Are those political categories?
Karaganov: They are essential Russian values. In Putin’s world, and in mine, it is inconceivable that women be harassed and raped in public.
SPIEGEL: Are you referring to the sexual assaults that took place in Cologne on New Year’s Eve?
Karaganov: If men were to do something like that in Russia, they would be killed. The mistake is that Germans and Russians haven’t spoken seriously about their own values in the last 25 years — or they didn’t want to understand each other on the topic. During Soviet times, we too claimed there were only universal values, just as the West is doing now. It scares me when the Europeans demand more and more democracy. It sounds like times past, when people here demanded more and more socialism.
SPIEGEL: Where do you think Russian foreign policy has gone wrong?
Karaganov: In recent years, we didn’t have a political strategy for dealing with our immediate neighbors, the former Soviet republics. We didn’t understand what was really happening there. The only thing we did was subsidize these countries and buy their elite — with money that was then stolen, likely together. As a result, it wasn’t possible to prevent the Ukraine conflict. The second problem: Our politics was focused for too long on fixing past mistakes — fixing the mistakes made in the 1990s.
SPIEGEL: In the Russian press, there has been some conjecture that Russia will send out signals of rapprochement following parliamentary elections in September. Is such conjecture justified?
Karaganov: We believe that Russia is morally in the right. There won’t be any fundamental concessions coming from our side. Psychologically, Russia has now become a Eurasian power — I was one of the intellectual fathers of the eastward pivot. But now I am of the opinion that we shouldn’t turn away from Europe. We have to find ways to revitalize our relations.
Sergey Karaganov 63, is honorary head of the influential Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, which develops geopolitical strategy concepts for Russia. In May, the council issued new foreign policy premises. The council includes politicians, economists and former military and intelligence officers. Karaganov is an advisor to Vladimir Putin’s presidential administration and deacon of the elite Moscow college National Research University Higher School of Economics.
Russia isn’t made out to be a ‘monster’ in the mainstream media of the West because the controllers of the Deep State believe this to be true. Understand that the Demons are not ‘racist’ or ‘xenophobic’ – they play the game by comprehending the weaknesses of average Humans perfectly. They sell lies that they believe the sheeple will lap up. Look at how the sheeple were told that all gay men were ‘depraved’ in the 1950s, but now the sheeple are told they are all ‘saints’. The Demons, of course, haven’t changed their minds. But taking the sheeple to extreme positions, regardless of what those positions are, is useful. Why do you think the Demons invented organised sports teams?
So Russia cannot make the mainstream media ‘behave’ itself through any reasonable argument. All Russia can do is to finally except the nature of the Demons who control the Deep State, and start to take the necessary measures to defeat them in what will be the short term- until the whole process must be repeated again.
The sheeple of the West still fear nuclear holocaust, obviously, but this fear is mostly missing in the under 30s. The Demons have had extreme control of the upbringing and education of sheeple children (in the West Empire- including regions of total dominance like Japan) for decades now. This was one of the major strategy changes high Demon Tony Blair brought with its rise to power, together with the Total Surveillance society.
We ‘awake’ people are amazed at just how reasonable the Russians are, especially those of us old enough to recall the Soviet bashing popular TV shows of the 60s and 70s that informed our views as kids. But this doesn’t matter. We are too few- no matter how vocal we try to be on Internet forums.
The sheeple still fear nuclear holocaust, but they love their Demon appointed leaders, and their horrific 1984 policies. Britain, for instance, cheered loudly at every walking/running/riding/swimming bottle of steroid pills that ‘won’ a medal for Britain at the last Olympics. Our *cheating* didn’t bother the sheeple one little bit. Nor did the astonishing depraved hypocrisy that eliminated the Russia competition for apparently doing the same. These aren’t the same Brits whose horror of slavery forced their leaders to end slavery all across the world (including in Russia). The moral heart of Britain was sucked dry by high Demon Tony Blair.
One thing even the Demons can’t prevent is that the sheeple love ‘strength’, ‘decisiveness’ and ‘results’. Russia can deliver in ways the West cannot, simply because the needs of the Demons run counter to these ideas. Putin and Russia have undoubtedly impressed, but no where near as much as could be, or is needed to hold the Demons in short term check.
Karaganov can say what he likes, and make as much sense as he can- but no sheeple will ever hear his ‘words’. Actions, on the other hand, are something else. The sheeple 100% hate Saudi Arabia and the wahhabi horrors that partner their religious/ideological *brothers* in Israel. Russia currently even supports the Saudi atrocities in Yemen, so badly does Putin still creep to that British created nightmare of a ‘nation’.
If Putin was to take immediate moves to destroy Saudi Arabia (and I don’t mean by direct military action), the sheeple of the West would howl their approval and the Demon project would be finished for at least another 50-100 years. The destruction of the wahhabi cult would deliver a massive chunk of the Middle East into Russia’s sphere of influence. There’s no downside, so how and why is Saudi Arabia so protected by Putin at this time. Saudi Arabia freely admits its intent to murder as many Russians as possible, if Russia refuses to hand over Syria to the wahhabis.
Why does Russia put so much effort into protecting the British created, American nutured, Israeli partnered kingdom of purest evil? Is the power of Israel over Putin really this strong?
In Middle East perspective Putin and the Elite of post soviet Russia are one and the same as the USA elite. They both support Israel and Money above all. Putin says something good about Israelis almost every week. He actively came out and said he supports Israels so called “anti terror” operation in Palestinian territories. Putin finds it fun to kill arabs cities with cluster bombs just like his friend George Bush.
In 1950s up to 1970s Soviet helped Arab nationalist Anti Imperialist to fight Wahabist and Zionists. The original plan was to have all north africa and middle east under one Arab Nation.Russians built many hospitals schools and railways. From Mauritania to the borders of Iran, that would have been the biggest and richest country in the world. Now we have a Russia that is just killling Arabs to show off its new toys. This is a big moral decline.
There is paradox of the former Soviet Union and today’s Russia; same thing with then and now Western nation (particularly US and UK). Their common denominator is zionism. What is exactly the relationship between Zionists and these nations? How is exactly these nations are controlled by zionists? Which side are the zionists on? Am dying to know and have no good night’s sleep as the world situation is on the brink that affects each one of us. We should all care. And yet, the usual talk about perpetrators is always vague.
Excellent opinion and deep understanding of the Western psyche. KSA would, however, be the wrong 1st choice at this stage. Think about Mecca, Hajj and the current very real threat of having this country becoming another Libya. Irrespective of their democratic (or lack of it) features, powerful countries collapsing make big waves.
I would rather propose Russia to tackle the very bad kids on the block in QR. This country had enjoyed far too much power for what it represents, geographically, culturally or politically. Bribing they way to the high spheres of Washington, London and Paris to spearhead the shameful disasters in the wake of the Arab Spring, they believe they can get away.
Oh he talkin’ that hot shit. Ash Carter and general Milley ain’t gonna like this. Hot under the collar they will be. I just hope they don’t start chucking missiles. Cuz you know America is just a big brat and bully. A Veruca Salt of a country.
Thing is, if MAD has provided ‘stability’ but there’s a shift, so that one side can ‘win’ by removing all ability for the other side to respond (or if there is merely the appearance of such a shift), then the logical course of action is to go ahead and launch.
This is much more dangerous than the Cuban Missile standoff in 1962.
The rag speigel is the German version of the guardian and the nyt, zionazi propaganda tailored for the locals who think of themselves as educated and advanced socially. The sick freak asking the questions reminds of the hitler youth mentality, which is essentially what zionazism is a continuation of.
I’m not familiar with Karaganov, but a lot of the views he expresses seem to me to be biased from the “atlantist” POV, IE: 5th column – zionist influenced.
@ vot tak
You got ahead of me again! I was going to comment on the interviewer’s questions, heavily load with innuendo and projection: “You Russia are doing all these terrible things, how do you respond to that?”
And the twit who was being interviewed agreeing to all that shit and sort of apologising for all those offenses!!! Plain pathetic!
If that is the calibre of Mr Putin’s advisors, God help Russia. No wonder the Western criminals feel they are on a roll.
Yes will find actually that Putin himself is altanticist inside. He has done nothing really to stop endless usa march around the world. Russians benefits they had under ussr have all gone under Putin. The economy of russia is westernised. The youth culture is western. Anyone who thinks russia will save the world from usa empire is deluded.
Hasbara moved to North Africa?
Ask bibi. Putin has a very good friendship with him.
Vice versa. It was Netanyahu that scuttled sharply to Moscow when it became clear the Russia was going to stop the Syria onslaught. Israel was allowed to make limited acts Syria in defense of its own national interest, but any threats to Russia will be stomped on. Unlike Western politiicans, the Russians are not scared of the meaningless ‘anti-semite’ accusations. Netanyahu knows the Russia will not sell out its national interests in favor of Israel, and will have no qualms about dealing with Israel should it threaten Russian national interests.
Russia also wants the rabid Russian-Jewish emigres to stay in Israel. Paying their pensions is well worth it.
Two precisions :
– The interview is not very recent ; it was given last July.
– In 1995 Serguey Karaganov became member of the International Advisory Committee of the Council on Foreign Relations, chaired by M. Rockefeller and counting among its members Mrs Madeleine Albright (The lady who was so sad that Siberia belongs only to Russia). He is very often seen as an ” agent of globalization” (the so-called sixth column”) in Russia.
Thank you this this guy is terrible – a traitor in words
I bet he is not even a “Putin advisor ”
As it is claimed
Short:
CIA-Spiegel interviews Russian 5th columnist. Yawn.
Saker,
I have never heard of him
Who is this guy – this interview is terrible the guy is not helpful to Russia at all.
This interview will confirm all the negative things people think about Russia
Another ‘advisers’ is Dugin and the billionare owner of Tsargrad TV. Babblers.
The antidote to all these atlanticist controlled opposition flunkies is Andrei Fursov.
Google fursov + youtube and you will have a much better idea of how Eurasianists see the world, though he’s careful not to challenge zionists too directly, which is why anglophile Rus prefer you waste time with Karaganov or Lavelle.
Karaganov sounds like a paid troll. And probably he is. I mean, look at his english wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Karaganov
And the “Spiegel” is Germany’s worst, most war mongering, most lying, most distorting, most russophobic magazine. They choose their interview partners and questions well.
This interview serves as part of the western war propaganda.
Putin should fire Karaganov a.s.a.p.
He is a member of the Trilateral Commission, a truly globalist organization. You are right, he serves Der Spiegel’s purposes.
Dear Saker
Is he an adviser to VVP?
Are you kidding?
[disrespectful invective removed] allows Spiegel to make deceptive comments over and over again, blazingly deceptive comments I might add, without really challenging them and often partially agreeing with them.
Many of these comments are most bizarre.
Karaganov is telling things as they are, and I for one like his points.
Perhaps you people have not really read the interview?
Der Amerikanishe Spaniel.
poor Fritz bastard.
look at what he says: ”such tactics dont exactly create trust” – about Putin´s withdrawal of a dozen planes from Syria.
and the fritz thinks germans are entitled to discuss which concepts should or should not be part of Russian values – by the idiotic question whether dignity,courage and honor – were political categories…
IT MEANS that telling to the Greeks: you ether pay or starve to death – payment of debts is an indispensable political category.
It means: if Putin introduces weapons he´s an AGGRESSOR and if he withdraw the planes he creates mistrust.
Maybe tow or theree Kalibr´s in the Brandenburg gate and the Parisien Strasse would convince the fritz otherwise.
Edmons take of the refugee crisis in Greece, and this, I think there is hope for Europe to save itself from USA! Otherwise the Europe is over, which is exactly what the US wants and has intended since WW1, even before! Once the evil Dullus Brothers started the CIA, it became, through WW11 chicanery, the biggest force for evil the world has ever experienced. False Flag 9/11 allowed the US CIA to morph into Darth Vadar in the flesh on steroids….speaking metaphorically. What both Dullud brothers thought of themselves. Soros is the brainchild.oros should be imprisoned for the rest of his life, and of course the US would never allow that. Soros is too useful, is too representative of who America is morphing into itself. A country and a people to avoid! No change in America equals actual suicide.
Just look at that demeaning tone Spiegel have, what the heck is wrong with them? How will such tone solve anything?