(cover photo above: Daesh thugs execute a group of children)
by Noureddin Shami
The author has written at least five different versions of this essay, all in an attempt to relay the same message at different levels of overtness targeting different audiences. Bits and pieces of it have been used here and there by some, even published, sometimes with good intentions and sometimes with devious intentions.
In the wake of the horrific crime against Paris and its people, the onus on those with light to shed becomes a bigger moral obligation. The truth must be told and information must be shared for people to be able to make rational conclusions. From this context, there is perhaps no better forum to discuss the issue of Islamic fundamentalism than The Saker. This specific version is therefore targeted for The Saker readership, and will be quite open. It will upset some people, but the truth has to be told as it is.
To understand the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL aka ISIS and IS), one has to go back to the early foundations that underpin it.
Much recently has been said about IS, however, most of the words used have been so remote from the whole truth. The lies and the cover-ups have confounded the problem. Muslim clerics fear to face the truth. Arab anti-IS activists are either diverting the truth or turning a blind eye to it. The Western-led coalition poised to stand up against IS had no idea “who”, or rather “what”, the real culprit was, and no serious intention of defeating it either.
Even the more recent Russian initiative in Syria, with all of its military effectiveness, is not addressing the issue at its core, as in reality, it is incapable of approaching the dogmatic core from a mere military perspective.
Yet, criticism and opposition to IS are widespread in their origin; including opposition from Muslims who are rightfully saying that such actions give Islam a deeply damaging image. What is real Islam? one might ask, but this question will never be answered; at least not honestly, and not from a position of knowledge either because the Islam that Muslims believe in is not real Islam, it is the perverted Islam that is best represented by IS.
The problem however is not just that of the truth being covered up, but with the consequences of uncovering it. The world is bursting at the seams with bigots from such diverse poles, and any attempts to unmask any one of them inadvertently but surely will deliver to the opposing party fuel and excuses for retaliatory actions that invariably, and without fail, harm innocent people.
The moral obligation of speaking out about this hence becomes quite a challenge because, exposing all this with the full knowledge that such information could be misused to target others is a heavy burden to carry and yet, to choose to simply stay silent in fear of such retaliations is not responsible conduct either.
The writer has taken the J-curve in his pursuit to understand Islam. He is neither a practising Muslim, nor an anti-Muslim or a self-hating Muslim. He does not follow any other religion either. This essay is an attempt to dispel some myths and address what real Islam really is. If he gives an informed description of the commonly-accepted Muslim belief system, he is neither attacking Islam nor Muslims. He is stating facts which he believes that the non-Muslim world is totally unaware of.
Islam has been tainted by both of those who are giving it the bad image with their actions, and those who are trying to defend it.
The writer was born into a secular Muslim family in the mid 1950’s. His family did not practise any religion, which is something quite rare in that part of the world. He was brought up among Muslims, including leading clerics and a close family relative who brought in the Muslim Brotherhood (MB). This eventually culminated in turning his home town into a hub of Islamist fundamentalism.
He knows exactly what fundamentalists believe in, what they are prepared to reveal, and what they will hide. For many years, he shuddered listening to them disbelieving what they were saying, and as a result, he renounced their religion outright.
With horror, he watched how in the late 1960’s, their recruitment drive began to gain momentum. No one at that time would have imagined that it would eventually end up with a state occupying half of Iraq and Syria and operatives all over the West.
Later on in life, he read the Koran and realised that it is a great book. He realized that Islam is indeed a religion of compassion and love, but the meanings of the Koran’s words and their teachings have been grossly distorted.
His own study and inner circle allowed him to realise that Islam as practised has got absolutely nothing to do with the Koran and its teachings. It became clear that the problems in Islam, its violent aspect, are all the result of misinterpretations that are centuries old, and unless they are properly identified and addressed by Muslims, the problem cannot and will not be resolved.
Some staunch Shariah-Muslims will see in this essay words of heresy, treachery and will make all types of accusations that their narrow minds will conjure, and this is because in their dogma, humans are only meant to follow commands and rituals and to have them performed in a specific manner in order to appease their lord. If reason and Shariah come to differ, which of the two should prevail? They have their religion and the author has his. It is not their judgment that he seeks.
The Koran promotes the concept of “Fatah”. There is no English equivalent to this term even though the word in its literal sense means “opening”. However, “opening” does not fully explain the philosophical concept. The closest English term that embodies the concept of “Fatah” would be “disclosure”, that is, a spiritual insightful disclosure that leads to enlightenment. But that original term “Fatah” is not even discussed within a Muslim context in the non-Muslim World and has almost totally lost its meaning in Islam itself. Many such key terms in Islam have lost their original meanings and this is an extremely serious matter.
Another example of such misuse and distortion of key words that underpin the concepts and tenements of Islam includes the word “Jihad”. This word literally means “struggle” and refers to the struggle of the soul in its search for enlightenment. There is no equivalent for it in English and the closest we can get to it is to borrow from Sanskrit the word “Yoga”.
Jihad was distorted to mean killing non-Muslims and Fatah to mean conquering non-Muslim nations and forcing them to convert to Islam.
We can go further and find another key concept in Islam distorted beyond recognition; that is the word “Shahada”. In its literal sense it means “witness”, and in the Koranic context, it is also meant to mean witness or vision (ie of God). The distortion rendered this to mean getting killed in battle against non-Muslims with a guarantee to enter heaven “without any judgement”.
Essential to note here is that the Holy Koran does not directly say that Islam will rule the world. Instead it makes inferences to that effect, but those hints are no different to saying that “the righteous shall inherit the earth”. The Koran quite clearly says that only a few will be righteous in the latter days. This clearly contradicts any fundamentalist Muslim “prediction” of the whole world converting to Islam.
Lastly, the Koran never stated that the ultimate objective of Islam is to form a global state (or any state for that matter) that is run by Shariah law.
As occurs in all the world’s great religions, the teachings and message say something and practise becomes quite something else. Hence, in total contradiction with the lofty, profound and peace-loving words and teachings of the Koran, the three concepts of Fatah, Jihad and Shahada which described the foundations of a spiritual path of faith, were distorted in manner that turned Islam into a religion of violence, conquest and mayhem ending up with establishing a Shariah-run state as the ideal expression of “true” Islam. Even the “path” (Sabeel in Arabic), was distorted to mean “for the sake of”. So the “path towards God”, came to mean “fighting for the sake of God”.
Yasser Arafat, despite being strictly secular, named his movement “Fatah” despite having Christians fighting alongside him! If there are any questions about the choice of the name, the national anthem for Palestine is there for all Arabic speakers to examine, discern and translate to others.
At the heart of the problem is that many Koranic words have one literal Arabic meaning and another totally different and distorted one ascribed to them by Muslim clerics. Invariably, without fail, the distorted meaning is one that suits the interpretations of the clerics just as they have learnt from their predecessors. Hence, the distortion continues. This is not the work of IS, the Muslim Brotherhood (MB), or the CIA.
At the heart of the matter lies the fact that practising Muslims believe in the distorted definitions of the terms Fatah, Jihad and Shahada. Most will not seek Shariah law, take up arms or actually get engaged in fighting. These distorted beliefs have been passed down to them since the very early days of Islam. The truth is that there is no such thing as moderate Islam when, upon examination of these distorted definitions of Fatah, Jihad, and Shahada, it is evident that the twist of interpretation is in the direction of violence and conquest.
The matter becomes even more serious upon comparing doctrines. If there is a debate between a pacifist Muslim scholar and an IS representative, you will find differences on issues like how they interpret certain rules, how to punish those who break them and the like, but you will also find that their fundamental beliefs about Fatah, Jihad and Shahada are identical. This is why Muslim clergy cannot and do not stand up to publically rebuke the IS ideology.
Some learned Muslim scholars try to soften the Jihad definition when they argue that it is not only about military struggle and has loftier aspects, but they all conveniently turn a blind eye to the commonly-held understandings of Fatah and Shahada because they have absolutely nothing to hide behind, and as non-Muslims do not know much about those concepts, those Muslim clergy never get challenged and it is about time that they do.
Of course, most Muslims are peace-loving people and would never engage in any military conquest by choice, in particular those who are in the forty years and older age mark. With the concerted efforts in radicalisation over the last few decades and its peak in recent times, they may not be able to hold back their youth. In fact, some Muslim youth today, including those living in Western countries, are managing to radicalise their parents and forcing their sisters and mothers to wear the Hijab, among other things.
As evident, IS is implementing in its practices the distortions in the reading of the Holy Koran and without any false pretences, diplomacy or political correctness. It is emboldened, empowered and open in its belief in forceful coercion as a means to spread Islam all over the world. It doesn’t shy away from killing anyone who does not follow its dogma. This is its interpretation of the Book.
The problem does not originate from IS any more than it does from Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, Wahhabism, the MB or the Salafists or any other group. Neither, does the problem originate in the so-called USA-created groups and, the USA cannot be held accountable for such a belief system. Neither is the problem lying in a handful of radicals tainting the image of Islam. The problem lies in the fact that these foundational concepts of Fatah, Jihad and Shahada have not been addressed and properly explained to Muslims by Muslim clergy.
Historically, early conquests were most likely employed strategically when Islam was in its infancy and unknown to the world. However, right now, no one is prepared to revisit those definitions and their validity or relevance in today’s world.
What is specifically dangerous about IS is that it effectively brings back home stories of success when for so a long Muslims only heard stories of defeat and suppression. Wahhabism has been based on reclaiming the former glory. Their misinterpretation of the Koran compels them to believe that there really is a moment when global military conquest will eventuate and that when Muslims hear the “call”, they are compelled to rise up and fight. IS signals to emotionally vulnerable Muslims that it is the one to lead such a conquest. That is why all Muslim youth, hundreds of millions, are potential recruits for this.
Nothing other than in-house reform can reform Islam. For this monumental step to be taken, Muslims will have to read the Holy Koran correctly, listen attentively to its subtle meanings and wondrous metaphors even if this requires challenging some existing interpretations considered as fundamentally significant to the faith of Islam.
No doubt, without willing and powerful financiers, organizations like IS cannot present a wide-spread danger, however it is never difficult for such interested “investors” to be found as an entire potential army exists which is ready to fight and die, and its soldiers can easily be manipulated should the interested financier know how to play his cards right. Cleary in many cases, these soldiers run with money but, money is only the catalyst as the recruitment magnet and drive has come from deep within this archaic and distorted Islam accepted and taught by all Muslim clerics in all Mosques all around the world.
We see with Iraq, Libya and Syria where they were once stable countries run by so-called autocrats who fully understood the foundations of violence in Islam and their implications if not managed. Hence they knew quite well how to deal with the issue and in their own methods peculiar to their laws and practices which the West goes to pains to describe as undemocratic.
Evident to all, the Western-led removal of Saddam and Qaddafi has turned Iraq and Libya into hubs for Islamists with Libya just a short distance from the shores of Europe. Western-led support for the Syrian opposition has facilitated the creation of Islamist organizations in Syria and the transport of tens of thousands of fighters and military hardware to them. In a twist of fate, the West now has to fight the same fighters it helped create and arm. The recent barbaric attack on Paris is an undeniable proof of such an outcome.
It is total folly of the West to think that it can switch Jihadists on and off, to use them when convenient and then cut off their lifeline believing they will go away. How easy it is to forget that the honeymoon with Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan didn’t last too long. It seems the experience was not powerful enough to teach the West an important lesson. As we speak we see history repeating itself.
Whilst the West cannot reform Islam, to capitalize on its violent aspect for quick military short-term gain is extremely dangerous.
In dot point, this is in reality what Western governments and their law-enforcement agencies have been doing:
1. Fostering Islamists and supporting them overseas.
2. Turning against the same Islamists later on thereby putting their citizens on the terror hit-list.
3. Under religious freedom, allowing fundamentalist Islamic teachings to be taught in mosques and Muslim schools and having them unchecked.
4. Appointing seemingly and allegedly moderate Muslim leaders as advisors to law-enforcement agencies.
5. Pouring money into programs which they believe can de-radicalize Muslim youth. This is folly and clearly indicates that officials who put those plans into place have no idea at all that of how to put into place strategies that will succeed.
6. Fueling anti-Western hatred by continuously supporting Israel and its criminal treatment of Palestinians.
Islamists of different magnitude and danger have infiltrated Western government agencies especially in Europe. They are at best Trojan Horses capitalizing on public funds and pursuing fame and power, all the while giving governments twisted advice to protect their ilk.
But try to say this in the West and you’ll be accused of being Islamophobic, against freedom of expression, bigoted and paranoid. Instead of listening to the truth, they will keep feeding Islamist groups with funds, emboldening their use of mosques as political and religious organizing bases, make their holidays public school holidays, all in the hope of integrating them into the broader community. They will never integrate because their objective is to convert the world to adopt Islam. After all, they teach their youth to trust only those who follow their religion.
Try to convince Arab activists who are standing up against ISIL that the underlying problem is within some false Koranic interpretations, and they will scorn you and tell you that it is all America’s doing. In so doing this, not only they would be refusing to see reality, but they are also diverting attention from the main culprit and allowing it to continue to fester under cover.
In exposing Islamists however, one is sure to rally up support, but it will be from the wrong people; the true Muslim haters like Neo-Nazis, Skin Heads, white supremacists and evangelists who will jump on the band wagon proclaiming that they have a better alternative to Islam.
This period in history is akin to the time of the crusaders of Christianity; replacing Christianity with Islam. In fairness to Islam, the Church that led the crusaders did not reform. It was the Western mind that reformed and in its rejection to the Church has managed to liberate itself from its yoke.
Before any group of people criticize another, they must both honestly and sincerely look at their own performance, history and belief system and act from within the principle that “he who is without sin should cast the first stone”. Even if Islam does not reform, just like Christianity did not either, Muslims may in time start rejecting the rotten ideologies they have been brought up with. As a matter of fact, the IS syndrome may hasten this process.
Inadvertently therefore, we are back to where this essay started because understanding the nature of the beast only solves half the problem. Military action against IS in Syria and Iraq is necessary, but to go the next step in an attempt to quash its ideology is another story. Such a move poses the key question as to who would be morally and philosophically qualified to oppose IS and by which means? We can go a little further and ask who can guarantee that exposing of the driving force of IS is not going to give some anti-Muslim bigots enough reason to wage massacres against Muslims, all Muslims, including those who would never take up arms, even non-practising Muslims, wherever they can be found, cornered or outnumbered? What assurance can one have that such atrocities will not reach those who “look like Muslims” or are identified as Muslims? Such repercussions have happened in the recent past.
The million dollar question to ask is whether more people will get killed if ISIL is allowed to operate under wider Muslim protection and allowed to continue to recruit more youth if this potentially highly dangerous issue is not brought out to the open? No one knows but I must act on my conscience and integrity.
I see mohammed in every daesh and al-qaeda and al-nusra islamic jihadist muslim, this is real islam, even saudiarabian wahabism is the lazy version of true islam, dont trust a secular muslim perspective who does not live as his religion commands, i encourage every single human being that believes that islam is peaceful and harmless to research the life of mohammed, his actions, and how his deceitful doctrines made de middle east his slave even long after his death to do evil in the name of a lie.
http://www.prophetofdoom.net/
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/jesus-muhammad.htm
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index.html
Oh, PLEASE, can we not go down that all too easy road of blaming all of Islam for the actions and interpretations of the few?
I, as an Orthodox Christian, would not want to be lumped together with the Papacy even though numerically speaking most “Christians” on the planet are Papists.
If Islam, as such, was the problem that would be reflected in the actions of all Muslims, just as the problem of the Papacy is reflected in the actions of all Papists. Except for in the case of Islam this is clearly NOT so.
So, PLEASE, let’s stop this easy Islam bashing and look at the real problems, okay?
Thanks,
The Saker
You want to hide the evil root of the evil branch with a more tender younger branch of the same evil root, fighting fire with a smaller fire. The real problem is the violent and evil and deceitful foundation of islam, if you compare the life of mohammed with the life of daesh terrorrists they are the same, you did not study it or you are not willing to admit it, using the papacy as the “christian” example is a fallacy, jesus did not teach the pope to do violence, the root of christianity, is the Christ, the Holy Sinless Lamb of God, not the pope, Jesus gave us the sword of the word of God and the Holy Spirit, not a sword of iron like mohammed and his modern spiritual islamic offspring that fight his jihad.
You have no idea what you are talking about, and are just spreading propaganda and more violence, and are utterly at odds with the ‘word of god’ and ‘lessons of Jesus’. Take a decade or two to unlearn your ignorance and learn what these things really are about before you spout more nonsense. Karen Armstrong is a very good place to start, and very accessible (I’m sorry she was not around when I started my own search for truth — it would have been so much easier and faster.)
Thanks be to God that your opinion is not the measure of my knowledge, an i decline your offer to accept the unknown opinion of karen armstrong over the word of God and over the online sources i referenced that clearly prove my point from the official islamic sources like the qur’an and hadith of sahih al-bukhari, sahih muslim and others, that daesh/nusra/qaeda acts and teaches the islam and sunnah of mohammed, and that they are true islamic terrorists like their death leader.
If you talk to god you can call it prayer and it’s OK, but when you think that god talks to you and you think you understand ‘the word of god’, then you have a problem. About the same problem the Muslim extremists have, in fact.
As I said, the first thing you have to do is unlearn your ignorance. It’s hopeless trying to know anything until you decide to do that. The greater ignorance isn’t not knowing, but ‘knowing’ things which are wrong, and closing your mind.
What Armstrong says is hardly unknown — she is a world famous scholar, researcher, author, and expert on this — but maybe unknown to you.
God answers my prayers, God teaches me His own word, and yes then i understand it, you try to say it is ok to pray (let the poor guy have his imaginations) but no God can not answer and give understanding, Or give it to me? Hey, thats your problem not mine.
Repeating your opinion does not make it true at all.
Regarding your one of the billions famous researcher scholar i dont follow the opinion of men like you do.
You want to think you can understand ‘god’ then go right ahead. But you sure don’t understand Islam. You even think you understand me (you don’t.)
Whatever… but don’t spread lies about Islam.
See you are changing my words i never said i think i understand god, His word yes, that is why He revealed it after all, to give understanding by His word and Spirit of Him and His will, understanding on a level that is enough for us to serve Him, that is not to say that we little earthworms fully comprehend God, dont twist my words.
I know perfectly well that i understand islam, and the 3rd repeating of your opinion does not bother me at all.
Now you are accusing me of that, of wich you are guilty yourself pretending to know my knowledge lol
Yeah what ever man… Why did you even start, much noise no wool as they say.
Thank you for encouraging me to spread the truth about islam i surely will continue to do when the time is there somewhere.
Fanaticism is not limited to any one religion.
You understand ‘the word of god”??
Contemplate (just scratching the surface of what ‘word means, and meant to the ancients):
“John 1King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.”
http://transliteracies.english.ucsb.edu/images/flash_projects/word/
”
The word for “word” here is “logos”, the Greek word for the indwelling logic, or rational order of things. But it also refers to and translated the figure of “Wisdom” from the Hebrew scriptures. The first 14 lines of John 1 thread together three distinct ways of understanding the productive power of God’s “Word”: creation, incarnation, and the communication of the “good news” of the Gospel.
Creation: the Word at the beginning of John 1 is linked by this passage to the first words spoken by God at the beginning, when he says “‘Let there be light’ and there was light.” (Genesis 1:3). Here the sending of light is a metonymy for creation; this metaphor associates God’s word/light with purity, truth, and power as speed: there is no interval between the word and its realization; the light arrives in an instant. But there is a temporal paradox at the center of this account: although creation is narrated as a punctual event, which is then followed by the arrival of a man sent from God, John the Baptist, who foretells the arrival of the Son, yet, this text insists, the Son was there at the creation from the beginning.
”
http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-Word-God.html
”
By starting out his gospel stating, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,” John is introducing Jesus with a word or a term that both his Jewish and Gentile readers would have been familiar with. The Greek word translated “Word” in this passage is Logos, and it was common in both Greek philosophy and Jewish thought of that day. For example, in the Old Testament the “word” of God is often personified as an instrument for the execution of God’s will (Psalm 33:6; 107:20; 119:89; 147:15-18). So, for his Jewish readers, by introducing Jesus as the “Word,” John is in a sense pointing them back to the Old Testament where the Logos or “Word” of God is associated with the personification of God’s revelation. And in Greek philosophy, the term Logos was used to describe the intermediate agency by which God created material things and communicated with them. In the Greek worldview, the Logos was thought of as a bridge between the transcendent God and the material universe. Therefore, for his Greek readers the use of the term Logos would have likely brought forth the idea of a mediating principle between God and the world.
“
sa top, followers of Christianity brought the world religious wars, like the Thirty Years War that killed a third of Europeans, WW1 and WW2, genocide under colonialism throughout the New Worlds and in India and China, A-bombs, and the reign of terror under US hegemony since WW2, and much more Evil besides. Have you never heard that those who live in glass houses ought not throw stones?
Mulga, the people who brought us the WW1 and WW2 were not Christians …. they were Masons and the Masons are not Christians. The Masons worship ‘the great architect of the universe’ – or ‘the higher power’ like in AA….which was started by a Mason….
Christ is a being. And people can call his name and not worship him…and he will say, “I do not know you”…He’s a very specific being. And to follow in his footsteps means being a Christian. Not with words but with deeds.
I’m glad in a way that the west has become ‘post Christian’ because now at least the facts are out of the bag….a true Christian would not start a genocidal war…would not start a war at all, but would go to war to defend their homeland and families. that’s all.
There are plenty of Christians who are Masons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposition_to_Freemasonry_within_Christianity
While most Christian denominations take no stance on Freemasonry, there are a few that are outwardly opposed to it, and either discourage or outright prohibit their members from joining the fraternity. The largest of these are the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Orthodox Church.[1]
The Southern Baptist Convention is mistakenly understood to prohibit Freemasonry, but leaves such as a matter of individual conscience,[2] largely due to the findings within the SBC 1993 Report on Freemasonry,[3] in which it states:
[…]
And there plenty of Christians involved in starting WW1 & WW2
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_Wilson#Early_life
Wilson’s father was one of the founders of the Southern Presbyterian Church in the United States (PCUS) in 1861 after it split from the northern Presbyterians. He served as the first permanent clerk of the southern church’s General Assembly, was Stated Clerk from 1865 to 1898, and was Moderator of the PCUS General Assembly in 1879. He became minister of the First Presbyterian Church in Augusta, Georgia, and the family lived there until young Wilson was 14.[15][15] Wilson in 1873 formally became a member of the Columbia First Presbyterian Church and remained a member throughout his life.[16]
Can’t people ever look stuff up before posting nonsense?
“….a true Christian would not start a genocidal war…would not start a war at all, but would go to war to defend their homeland and families. that’s all.”
more drivel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil
Exactly.
Do you know what Mahatma Gandhi told the British?
I like your Christ. He is so unlike you Christians.
Well, Ann, I’ll amend my observation to say that ‘People who claimed to be Christians…’. etc. I did notice from an early age that most people who called themselves ‘Christian’ did NOT follow the teachings of Jesus.
sa top. how does a supposed follower of Jesus, the Prince of Peace, who taught you to ‘turn the other cheek’, and forgive seventy times seven, become such a crazy hate-monger?
Telling the truth is love not hate, thank you for your opinion.
My comment is in the wrong place. I was agreeing with Ann.
Hi Serbian Girl, yeah, people even here don’t ‘get it’…just because a bunch of masons call themselves Christians, doesn’t make them Christians. Its pathetic. That’s why its good that the west is becoming ‘post-Christian’ at least the cat’s out of the bag Blue….
i am yet to hear of ANY muslim, radical or peaceful, who would speak of crusades other than crusades against islam and muslims – a grose historical falsehood. crusaders were up against the christian orthodox to begin with and anyone inhabiting former byzantine lands thereafter.
i would agree with you in principle only but continue to be afraid that “the few” aren’t too few.
best regards as per usual, lb
The First Crusade was to destroy the Gnostic heretics, the Cathars, was it not.
the first crusade was to get Jerusalem back from the Muslims…except for that first crusade that failed totally.
The Templars set up camp in Jerusalem..and the Templars were wiped out along with the Cathars a couple of centuries later.
The Cathars are those terrible ‘Manichaeans’ that Blue and others ignorantly call bad guys…in line the Catholic views.
removed. No attacking the Saker. Your next comment will go in the trash.ModTR. Islam has been at war with the West since its beginning.
Too easy is dangerous. How can you explain the very different opinion of the following people?
“The legislator of the Muslims, a terrible and powerful man, established his dogmas with his valor and arms; yet, his religion became benign and tolerant.” Voltaire
“If Islam means submission to God, We all live and die in Islam” Goethe
“I did not come into contact with any Muslim before I embraced Islam. I read the Qur’an first and realized no person is perfect, Islam is perfect, and if we imitate the conduct of the Holy Prophet… we will be successful.” Cat Stevens
“I believe in the religion of Islam. I believe in Allah and peace.” Muhammad Ali
“If Islam despises Christianity, it has a thousandfold right to do so: Islam at least assumes that it is dealing with men….” Nietzche
This blog is meant mostly for intelligent people seeking knowledge. With due respect, you are not intelligent! How could you still blame Muhammed after reading this wonderful article? My advice for you is to clear your mind of all the problems in your life and read this wonderful piece with and objective piece. You may never find it again.
God bless the author and The Saker for this wonderful article.
Thank you Hamis
@s.a. top
In one of your links you compare Mohammed with Jesus, presumeably to compare Islam with Jesus. The former was a warrior so obviously lots of differences with Jesus.
But isn’t Jesus also a prophet in Islam?
I give you the short answer no, and the long answer is in the link.
http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/durie/islamic_jesus.html
Mohammed gave a completely distorted testimony on the Lord Jesus and applied a wrong name to him, so the “prophet isa” of the qur’an is a meaningless false story.
Mohammeds teaching and life as obligatory example completely contradict the teaching and life of jesus, and obviously never accepted the true Jesus as his Prophet by accepting and embracing the word of the Lord Jesus christ.
“I and my Father are one.” john 10:30 this is the word of Jesus, He and God the Father ( with the Holy Spirit) are One God this according to mohammed is blasphemy, mohammed rejects God the Son, mohammed rejects God as Father, mohammed rejects the triune God.
No jesus is not a prophet in islam in reality only in words a perversion.
I’m afraid that just making up lies on this blog doesn’t cut it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam
Isa Ibn Maryam (Arabic: عيسى بن مريم, translit. ʿĪsā ibn Maryām; English: Jesus, son of Mary), or Jesus in the New Testament, is considered to be a Messenger of God and al-Masih (the Messiah) in Islam[1][2]:30 who was sent to guide the Children of Israel (banī isrā’īl) with a new scripture, al-Injīl (the Gospel).[3] The belief that Jesus is a prophet is required in Islam.
[…]
Reading here is getting to be like reading Stormfront or some other Nazi site filled with garbage. I have to begin to wonder if it’s even worth it.
Let me help you http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Abualrub/true-name-isa.htm
according to biblical narrative, jesus did destroy a little forex exchange at the temple with formidable zeal. did he not?
this in response you your remark that jesus was not a warrior. of course he was.. again, according to narrative.
Jesus was a son of the law, bar mitswa (look it up) and therefore responsible for the whole community, he simply cleaned the area of illegal activities, like the police is serving the law, and dispersing illegal activities, there is no torture, murder, rape, slavery, abuse, involved, get real, Jesus was restoring peace in a place of worship, you think there should be no order in society, no upholding of the law, no police, after all it was His own house the house of His Father, no housekeeping allowed? You think brothers in a family doing things in the wrong place can not be stopped from it by another brother?
A vigilante? A stranger who walks into town and decides to take the law into his own hands?
“he simply cleaned the area of illegal activities, like the police is serving the law”
hahaha, that was funny.
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/sep/01/georgia-police-shoot-man-kill-dog-wrong-house
Woah. I didn’t know Mohammad wrote the original Mein Kampf.
It’s almost painful to hear the anguish in the author’s tone. I salute his courage and his message. It’s good that this word gets out. Ghassan Kadi has been trying to tell us a similar thing.
However – as it is said, “Sufficient unto the day are the evils thereof.” If the fighters opposing IS believe it’s all the fault of the US, let them believe it if it helps them get the job done. We each of us carry our picture of reality for this day, and everyone’s picture is full of holes if it could be examined in detail.
We travel through our days in a roughly fabricated, working trust in certain beliefs. These beliefs change slowly, over time, sometimes from experience, sometimes from resonance with voices like the author’s voice that enter into the global dialog.
Skinheads were always wrong, regardless of doctrine. Just like Nazis and Zionists. And all “Fundamentalists”, of every doctrine. Lord knows the Christians have misunderstood the gentle message that came to them in the beginning. No message from God could ever be ungodly. Any message that sets people to war on others, never comes from God, it merely pretends to be from God.
And for Christians to turn away from their God was not a real solution to reforming their religion. The solution was to restore the sacred into the religion and very much into daily conduct. Christians have a choice also, whether to understand this or to destroy this world through ignorance. We all play a part in this. We all share the fault.
The error is not just in Islam. It would be good to hear some Christian voices similarly anguished over their doctrine, asking questions such as: do we really have dominion over all the animals of the earth? Can it ever be condoned to kill another human?
I’m glad to hear the author’s voice and his message. I don’t feel that Islam stands alone in the fault he points out. His message is of the true underlying sacredness of this world and the life in this world. We all share this message, we all share the fault of misunderstanding and perverting it. I encourage him to persist. This discussion is good. War is not ended by fighting but by building peace.
The main problem and whatever anyone says is even if the “normal muslim” people do not share the values of the radicals they will still allways protect and hide them from a “nonbeliever”.
So in the eye of a common muslim the most brutal muslim murderer is still better than a christian or other “nonbeliever” even if he would be a saint in his behaviour.
Those muslims may not support the ideas of the radicals when within their own community but whenever an outsider is involved they will use arguments like freedom off speech to protect the radical movement even by verbally attacking the socalled “nonbelievers”.
The main problem we have in islam is that is is not reformable couse the words came direct through an angel send bye god himself. He cannot be wrong and his words cannot become outdated. So for all believers their cant be a change in islam like it was in christianity.
And dont forget how much blood it cost in christianity to get this change at all. The sole reason we go it was couse the vaticans lost power and could not get what he wanted anymore.
While the orthodox have been weakened bye islamic invaders and communism but as you see now they are returning to the old ways off greed and corruption now that they are finaly free again.
So in the eye of a common muslim the most brutal muslim murderer is still better than a christian or other “nonbeliever” even if he would be a saint in his behaviour.
You are wrong. Most common muslims including myself don’t even participate in religious argument. You cannot use your own experience with less than 0.0001% of common muslims to judge the rest.
The imam said it like this: if you kill one innocent it is like if you killed whole humanity, so who is innocent ? It is the muslim, all the non muslims they reject alllah and his messenger they are not innocent in the eye of islam so it is not a crime against whole humanity(=muslims) so yes there is absolutely difference in islam killing muslim or non muslim
sa top, you appear to be confusing Islam with Talmudic Judaism, which definitely says that killing non-Jews, even children, is quite OK, Standing by and not offering assistance as they die is also kosher. In fact, killing civilians in time of war is regarded as a mitzvah or good deed, by these worthies, who have even published books that list the correct conditions under which goyim may be killed. Naturally not all Jews agree with these fundamentalists, just as many Moslems utterly reject Islamic fundamentalists. Your assertion that all Moslems think like Daash is simply wrong and clearly malicious. Probably psychological projection as well.
Actually islam has 3 classes of people muslims, christians and jews, and the others
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HQiHfhZsuHU you can watch the whole or start from minute 20 where an ex- muslim imam is explaining the matter.
I make no claims about how muslims think but about what qur’an and mohammeds life teaches wha true islam is and how daesh is living up to it as prescribed.
I know about the talmud, and i know it is rabbinic talk, not the word of God and of no authority, on the same level of the papal decrees, words of men, not of God.
Re: “i think i understand god, His word yes, that is why He revealed it after all, to give understanding by His word and Spirit of Him and His will, understanding on a level that is enough for us to serve Him,”
Are you saying that God has revealed his Word directly? I.e., not through the Word given to Mohammed and written down by Mohammed’s hearers in and as the Koran? I thought that for Muslims, Islam is the religion of the Book and the Word.
Or are you saying that what God revealed to Mohammed and was written down was not reflected in how Mohammed actually lived and conducted himself? That Mohammed was a channel but not a model? Perhaps a man who scarcely understood what was revealed to him? I have read that the Koran is one of the great works of Arabic literature. So, it is interesting to think of it as being either “channeled” by one who himself could neither read nor write —it is the work of Allah himself—or was a collective work written by multiple hearers. Either one of these interpretations would pretty much sideline Mohammed himself. And the whole issue of Mohammed’s successor–sons-in-law, nephews, etc—would seem to be made moot and meaningless.
Katherine
No the first part of my answer that you are quoting was about understanding the bible by the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.
Since when in Christianity can Christ’s words be said to be wrong. No church I know of thinks that way. Its the interpretation of the words that today are given different meanings. But that can be true in any religion. Words in religions don’t change. Its the education ,and thinking of the religions followers that change (or can change).
A great deal of the problems that the Muslim World faces isn’t strictly religious. Its economic,and religion is used as a relief for the economic problems. In the Muslim World itself that is the main cause of “fundamentalism”. While in the West ,the discrimination and the feeling of being “the other” feeds alienation among Muslim youth in those countries. Its not an “accident” that among the developed West and North in Europe are the least strict religious Christians.To solve the fundamentalist problem.The economic disaster in the MENA must be overcome. Without poverty to feed on Islamic fundamentalism wouldn’t have the numbers of recruits it does. It isn’t rocket science to see the connections there.
Any message that sets people to war on others, never comes from God, it merely pretends to be from God.
Ever read Exodus? Leviticus? Judges?
How about I Samuel, 15:3?
Or Matthew 10:34 – 36?
You can find anything you might want to do, presented by the Bible as God’s commandments, including mass murder and rape.
that Matthew – I come with the sword not with peace – excerpt has been wrongly translated from very early times. How could the Prince of Peace say those words…
But I have read in scholarly discourse that those passages have been wrongly translated from very early on.
That is the point though. Passages can be “interpreted” in the Bible and the Quran to be what the reader wants to believe. Its been like that throughout history. Those wanting to see Gods love read the Bible one way. Those wanting to see a stern God read it another. And its the same with the Quran. Those that accept Islam as any other faith read the love in the Quran. Those that hate Islam only see harshness in the Quran.
“How could the Prince of Peace say those words”
Just because he says he is doesn’t mean it’s true.
And Jack, the rest of your examples are Jewish, not Christian…
Its a pity that Christianity has used the Old Testament…its actually a very powerful psych- and has fooled alot of church goers…too bad…
If church goers read the Old with the New, the Old seems to be more powerful… people like rules I guess.
I’m not saying the Old Testament is bad…its just old. Now there’s a new testament. And that is Christ.
But it is a part (a big part) of the Christian Bible. You and I might want it to be different. But its a “one whole,one size fits all” situation. We aren’t able to only accept just one half (and still be considered as Christians). So what modern Christianity does is empathize the New Testament more. And ministers only “pick and choose” stories from the Old Testament to preach on. All the religious books of the great faiths of that period. Were full of love and “hate”. And our job as Christians,Muslims,and Jews. Is to choose the parts we want to model our lives around. Some choose the love passages (the majority). But some sadly,choose the hateful parts (neo-cons,jihadis,zionists). And that is the dilemma we have to live with.But what we shouldn’t do is pick and choose from the books of another’s faith. Its OK if we do with our own. Because we understand the different meanings of our own faith. But we have no right to try and “interpret” what are the meanings of another faith. We aren’t grounded in that faith, to be able to do that.
“Because we understand the different meanings of our own faith.”
You mean like you understand how much crazier your Roman Catholic Christian God is compared to your Protestant Christian God or, maybe, compared to your Orthodox Christian God or some other crazier concoction…or something?
removed. Adds absolutely nothing to the comment.
There is only one God in Christian,Muslim,and Jewish thinking. I would think you would understand that by now.
Hey Uncle Bob. thanks for nice comments about old testament..I agree that the old testament is beautiful in places…but it just seems to me that some fundamentalists use it – and then they also twist St Paul alot…
by the way, I read a great scholar Elaine Pagels on St Paul and its commonly thought among scholars of new testament now, that the parts where Paul is hard on women …was not written by Paul but by early Roman Catholic people….in the first centuries…isn’t that great ?
Because Paul is especially wonderful about Christianity, except for those weird places where he’s weird about women’s hats etc….and their obedience to men ….yuck….
@Grieved. Thank you for your heartfelt comments. It’s good to know that the effort taken in writing this, not to mention the risk, is not a waster after all. People like you make all the worthwhile.
“…do we really have dominion over all the animals of the earth?”
hmm, I had a long discussion with a Jehovah’s Witness (JH) about this a while ago…this was my most recent email in that saga:
Hi JH,
You stated:
“The other thing to think about, is that although animals are capable of feeling pain etc they are not able to reason and nor do they have a capacity for spirituality, its important not to humanize them. “
I found the following interesting in relation to that, see here:
http://epctoronto.org/Press/Publications_JRHughes/Why_Meat_Web.htm
From which I quote:
“In Genesis 1.29-30 we read:
Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so. (NIV)
In Genesis 9.1-5 we read:
Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth.The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything. “But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal.” (NIV)
It appears from a comparison of these two statements that after the Flood, God changed the order that had been established in the Garden of Eden. Before the Fall and, presumably, after the Fall until the Flood, men were to be, by God’s decree, vegetarians.”
So, God knows very well the “etc” that you referred to i.e God knows fear and dread will occur in part of its creation and that caused as a direct result of itself declaring they are given into [human] hands [to eat].
I also note that fear and dread seem inconsistent with what you term as creatures “not able to reason” i.e fear and dread can only be attributed to a reasoning creature, no ?
PS: have you any idea what 9.1.5: “I will demand an accounting from every animal” means ? (NIV admittedly)
How does the Sufi strand of Islam fit in? I have little knowledge of these matters, but I suspect that the Sufi tradition retains the closest to original Koranic concepts of Fatah, Jihad and Shahada.
From the master of Sufis, Rumi:
Rumi believed passionately in the use of music, poetry and dance as a path for reaching God. For Rumi, music helped devotees to focus their whole being on the divine and to do this so intensely that the soul was both destroyed and resurrected. It was from these ideas that the practice of whirling Dervishes developed into a ritual form. His teachings became the base for the order of the Mevlevi, which his son Sultan Walad organised. Rumi encouraged Sama, listening to music and turning or doing the sacred dance. In the Mevlevi tradition, samāʿ represents a mystical journey of spiritual ascent through mind and love to the Perfect One. In this journey, the seeker symbolically turns towards the truth, grows through love, abandons the ego, finds the truth and arrives at the Perfect.
The seeker then returns from this spiritual journey, with greater maturity, to love and to be of service to the whole of creation without discrimination with regard to beliefs, races, classes and nations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumi
Historically many to most Muslims have regarded Sufism as a dangerous heresy (I read). Yet many non-Muslims regard Sufism as the best example and most appealing expression of Islam.
Katherine
“many to most Muslims have regarded Sufism as a dangerous heresy”
umm, no that’s incorrect.
Interesting article. Thanks. I wonder whether certain hadith and even Koranic verses praising the ‘Jihad of the heart’ over the ‘lesser’ Jihad of physical struggle were removed as were the Gnostic gospels. The Islamists certainly are at pains to point out the ‘weakness’ of ‘Greater Jihad’ that came to prominence with Sufism post the original Islamic conquests.
I applaud the author for his effort to interprete the Koran in a positive way. Any text, holy or unholy can be interpreted in various ways. At the end of each day, ask yourself, what good have l done? Were my efforts conducive to ameliorate differences among mankind? Or have l sown seeds of discord? A christian-muslim, sunni-shiite or other sort of conflagration should be avoided at all costs. All humans desire peace for themselves, even those who we assume want to promote evil. Knowledge liberates us from the shackles of ignorance. As Socrates said, “There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.”
“The truth is that there is no such thing as moderate Islam when, upon examination of these distorted definitions of Fatah, Jihad, and Shahada, it is evident that the twist of interpretation is in the direction of violence and conquest.’
This is like saying there is no moderate Christianity but it is all like Dominionists, the warriors in the Crusades, or right wing evangelists.
It’s like saying there is no moderate Judaism, and all Jews are violent zionists who want to take over the Midle East, and the world.
Don’t think that everyone believes in these distortions of religions. But any religion can be distorted for political and emotional ends, if practiced by humans, especially when they are attacked.
I will again give the link to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09TI5CHQuac
Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time
Published on Jun 6, 2013
“Karen Armstrong talked about her book Muhammad: A Prophet for Our Time, published by Harper Collins in the Eminent Lives series. She described Muhammad, the prophet and founder of Islam, as a respectful man who …”
If you haven’t heard her speak on this you do yourself, and the truth, a disservice.
I have had cyber-friends who were obviously moderate in their interpretation and practice of Islam, and there are similar people in my area, and have heard many Muslims speak on this showing that peaceful and moderate Islam is alive and well, and dominant.
All of this talk about this or that religion being violent instead of the politics, finance, war mongering, hate and fear, and imperialism is feeding and spreading the political propaganda and obscuring the reality. It’s a distraction from the actual agendas and methods of the gangsters, sociopaths, and extremists. Do you really think when a Planned Parenthood clinic is bombed or a doctor is murdered, or when a general goes into battle saying “my god is bigger than their god”, that is the real Christianity? Lets get real here.
blue, according to historical sources, crusadere were dispatched to wipe out christian orthodox byzantines first and to beginn with. there were two or three such mighty expeditions over time – despite the popular religious and propagandist doctrine that the “crusade” can only apply to christian armies going against islam. that bit came later, when the islamic populations pushed and outnumbered the rest in the area. the byzantines got crushed by crusader armies advncing from the west and saracens (islamic) pushing and advancing from the east.
go and check for yourself.
best regards, lb
My point is that the Crusades were violent, and were ‘Christian’ endeavors — actually a quest for land largely fueled by the problem of second and others not first born were left out of inheritance (because it would have broken up the land into small parcels), and it was not important in that way who were attacked (Christians included). This is not to say, however that all Christians are aggressive war mongers like that (although it may seem so at times): the majority in most any religion are moderate and peaceful, as are the doctrines. People should understand differently from that statement “there is no such thing as moderate Islam when, upon examination of these distorted definitions of Fatah, Jihad, and Shahada, it is evident that the twist of interpretation is in the direction of violence and conquest.”.
Mohamed (PBUH) himself was very active in trying to bring peace and moderation to the area, and reconciling the Arabs there with Jews and Christians (and we can see the results in the toleration for the other religions in Muslim years for centuries (while in Europe people were persecuted for their religions). Peace and tolerance is at least as much a tradition and teaching in Islam as any other religion, despite how they all have their darker periods as well.
One problem I see among my fellow Christians that post on Islam. Well maybe two problems. First, most have never read the Quran (or any part of it). And yet think they “know” what it preaches. And second (and most important ,I think) is they compare Jesus and Mohammed. But that isn’t a fair comparison. Jesus was/is the “Son of God” in Christian belief. While Mohammed,among Muslims, is considered the “Messenger of God”. A Prophet appointed by God (Allah),more along the lines of Moses or John the Baptist in Christian belief. So they are entirely different. While Jesus was a peaceful being (minus taking a whip and driving the bankers…er…money changers out of the Temple). Moses,and John the Baptist. As well as other Prophets weren’t always peaceful. So in other words,comparing the two “God vs Prophet” is wrong.
The Lord Jesus Christ has a human nature and is the only true Prophet in the comparison.
“I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.” deutoronomy 18:18
“But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” filippians 2:7
It is very clear that islam was started and defined by mohammeds preaching and his life as an example to follow by obligation BOTH.
It is very clear that Christ is the source of christianity and that His life and teachings are defining christianity.
It is perfectly fine to compare religions and their defining teachings and actions.
And the assumption that most christians do not know qur’an is prejudice.
If you are trying to tell me that most Christians know the Quran. That’s not “prejudice”,instead that would come under the heading of nonsense.
Subtly changing from christians posting on islam not heaving read qur’an comparing jesus and mohammed to most christians knowing qur’an….
Most christians that post on islam read at least parts of the qur’an and hadith, if you have zero knowledge there is nothing to post.
Most christians know that there is a qur’an and the major differences between bible and qur’an, like jesus son of god and trinity, christian children get education at schoolmand at home and in church, you know, apologetics, cathechism, sermons. World religion classes etc. Hey in usa there even was a controversy about christian children learning the shahada by calligraphic writing.
I really hate to burst your bubble. But most Christians in the World (and from what I read on sites,those as well) have never even seen a Quran in their lives. Let alone read it. Things have changed a bit,but when I was a kid it was against Islamic belief to even publish a Quran that wasn’t in Arabic. And by a long shot most Westerners can’t read Arabic. Nowadays there are a few translations (how accurate,I’m not sure). But I strongly doubt most Westerners have read them.Maybe a couple of highlights at best. And the passages most sites would highlight are not the peaceful passages. Which would be the same as only posting the “fire and brimstone” passages from the Christian Bible. If that was done people would have a whole different thinking on Christianity.
Well you think in the past, and write in the present, that is contradictory.
Christians that post here on this website on islam is the topic, not christians in the pre internet era, there are thousands of websites that offer the qur’an in every imaginable form and translation, not to mention thousands of hours of videos with thousands of views, the qur’an was in the posession of christian scholars in the 1500s even, they knew arabic, they wrote books about islam the spoke about, even the reformers martin luther and john calvin and later scholars also, read and wrote and spoke about islam,qur’an and mohammed. The first translations of the qur’an in french and english were printed in 1649
And how many of the “people” could read in the 1500 and 1600’s in Europe. I’m sorry,but to believe the things you write I would have to disown over 30 years of studying history. So,I’ll have to stay with what I learned over those years. Nice try though.You might convince the young and uneducated. Or maybe the bigoted anti-Muslim crowd,so don’t despair.
Quran? Most Christians I’ve run into barely know even what the Bible says, much less the history and exegesis. I started talking about some verses to one neighbor who was trying to convert me and she had no idea of what I was saying — but then tried to tell me I must have really Christian deep down because I knew something of it — and this was not atypical, even among some clergy and door-to-door evangelists. Not even talking about knowing other religions or sects, or theology in general. Knowledge and research is not a big thing among most Americans, nor their being aware of what they do not know: they just say stuff — anything — often making it up as they go.
The world is bigger than usa and you probably experienced the phenomenom “name-christians”
“name-christian” seems to be something you made up — google doesn’t know what it means.
As for the US not being the whole world, that’s true (although I’ve met a number of people from other places) — and that’s true wherever you are from too. It does not negate what I said.
Yet, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX0Zt0ODrEA shows a problem in Nederlands.
Prank Proves People Don’t Know The Bible From The Quran
blue, this just tickled me pink :-)
We must meet on a wave somtimeplace.
It’ll be 20 more years before you are old.
HAPPY NEW YEAR.
From my perspective, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, are just the more major variations, among many minor ones, of the same Abraham-based religion, rooted in the same texts and geographical area. Whether (the mythic) Jesus is divine or not is about the same sort of debate as to whether one gets to Heaven based on deeds, belief, or some combination of the two. They are all based on the same root ideas of monotheism, prophets and priests, hierarchy, sin, dualism, etc. Whether is Christian vs Jew, vs Muslim looks about the same to me as Catholic vs Protestant or Muslim vs Bahá’í or Hatfields vs McCoys — and with virtually nothing to do with spirituality, or even religion, as such.
big-enders vs little-enders
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilliput_and_Blefuscu
“Lilliput and Blefuscu are two fictional island nations that appear in the first part of the 1726 novel Gulliver’s Travels by Jonathan Swift.”
Some general considerations:
1) You can neither judge nor compare any concept/ideology/religion/faith… without agreeing first on a common methodology/measure or similar.
2) To judge a concept/ideology/religion/faith… has nothing to do with judging individuals! Therefore any kind of logical conclusion like: Islam is … –> all Muslims are OR certain Muslims are … –> Islam is … ARE NOT VALID
3) It is a complete nonsense to compare/judge any concept/ideology/religion/faith… on the basis of examples
Regarding topic 1) and to start with, I’d like to propose the following method:
– In order to judge/compare religions we’ll have to characterize them on a meta level where they remain somehow invariant over time
– In order to do so I’d like to introduce the idea that every religion has something like a “center of gravity” (its being)
– Even if the followers/believers or the movement as a whole might deviate from this center to the most extreme point in a specific moment, the religion will need to pass through its center of gravity from time to time
– If a religion has a “holy scripture” we can expect to be able to identify its “center of gravity” through an analysis of these writings
– In order to easily identify the location of this “center of gravity” as a single point in space I’d like to propose the following 2-dim coordinate system
X-axis: Hate Love
Y-axis: Power Liberty
(Credits to Luciano De Crescenzo)
Thanks for this courageous manifesto.
Religious and secular clerics bear a heavy responsibility since war is first of all over information.
It is a rare compliment that you have chosen the Saker Vineyard to express your raw truth; it speaks to the level of maturity here.
There are hardly any absolutes left in this relativistic world. Distorted Islamism appeals largely because of its absolutist nature. This is an error because it’s the wrong absolutism.
Pushing this idea even further along the path of logic, we come to the absolutism of God, God as a semantic term and God as a romantic notion.
By what standard of judgement you ask? Well, there are many, too many to detail here.
The minor one is reason. Faith in God is not reasonable, not matter how hard clerics struggle to make it so. The long, cruel story of his-story should persuade but it can’t make a dent in the iron curtain of fixed, irrational beliefs.
It took me seventy years to break through that wall, after spending 30 years in old age religion and 20 years in new age religion, initiated and ordained in each. So what? That in itself doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. Every man and woman has his/her story.
The major standard of judgement is with the only absolute there is, Absolute Love, which ironically allows for relativism. Love is directly tied to womam centered nature, and that our cultures of divine Patriarchy abhor like the plague.
It’s the greatest story ever untold. It’s enfolded deeply in all sacred texts like the Koran and Bibles. But the depths have been polluted by the patriarchal shallows, sometimes by the all too human defects of the founders themselves.
I’m more defective than defection itself but like you, I must “act on my conscience and integrity” such as it is. Can any of us do differently?
I tell my story at thelovegovernment.com, a voice crying in the wilderness if there ever was a second one. Like you, I set myself up for attacks from within and without. But I take my analysis to the depths of darkness where angels dare not go. You think being a submarine in the desert is bad? Try being a lightning rod in a thunderstorm when the patriarchal Jove starts hurling his hates at womam lovers and nature befrienders.
Meanwhile . . .
Reform within the clergy of Islam must take place.
Mosques must stop generating radical and wrongful teachings.
Everyone else (Muslims and non-muslims) must wait for this Reformation.
That would be perfect if we just could get the radicals to stop killing us, raping, torturing, recruiting and destroying everything that does not suit their ideology.
I’m sorry, dear Muslim and peaceful people. The rest of us will have to kill all these radicals as fast as we can wherever they come at us with knifes, guns, bombs, and their hate-filled ideology.
It isn’t about a diverted Islam that has been misused. It is about the violence and mayhem.
We have no choice.
Reform is clearly the antidote. We agree. Now we know the three core terms of confusion and diversion from the sacred and peaceful.
But, they are killing us. And have an endless supply of warriors. And they insist on deciding this on battlefields and streets, with nothing spared, no one spared.
So, while the reform gains steam (it has yet to begin from all accounts, even the author could not point to one source of reform), it is imperative for the rest of us to assist the war on terrorism. If it wears some Islamic emblems, too bad.
We will have to kill all the rabid dogs, in or out of the mosques, madrases or wherever.
They are rabid, they are wild animals, and they must be liquidated.
It is really probably necessary before Reform can begin.
“That would be perfect if we just could get the radicals to stop killing us, raping, torturing, recruiting and destroying everything that does not suit their ideology.”
This would be easier if the US/empire stopped doing to that to the peoples of the world — killing, raping, torturing, recruiting, destroying, stealing, and committing genocide against those who do not meet the US ideology — including the Muslims, as it’s been doing for so many decades. Are the 1/2 million dead in Iraq really worth it, as Albright said? Not to mention destroying Afghanistan, Libya, and all over the world. And how about the native American ‘Indians’, when the US started this — often in the name of Jesus?
Maybe if the empire was liquidated, along with the rest of the terrorists and sociopaths, the rest of us could all settle down and just live our lives in a peaceful and reasonable way.
“That would be perfect if we just could get the radicals to stop killing us, raping, torturing, recruiting and destroying everything that does not suit their ideology.”
That might be true if that was all started in a vacuum,but it wasn’t. When I was a kid there was no such thing as “Islamic terrorism”. And yet Islam had been around for over a thousand years. But in general there was mostly peace and co-existence between the religious faiths in the World at my birth. But year by year of my life things have started to change. The West and Israel have encroached on the Islamic World. They have attempted to control it,loot it,and sow trouble. And who gains from all that. From the “so called,Clash of Civilizations”. Certainly not nations with diverse centuries old populations of mixed faiths like Russia and China. Where in the main there was peaceful relations between the faiths. And certainly not the hundreds of millions of innocent Muslims,Christians and Jews,in the World. As well as the hundreds of millions of people in the World not belonging to one of those faiths. The ones benefiting from this trouble are the elites of the US and Europe. And the zionists of Israel. If the elites can stir up trouble they can gain control of the Wealth in the MENA. And if the zionists can turn Christians and Muslims into enemies of each other then zionist Jews are able to ally themselves with Christians and feel protected from Muslim anger over their treatment of Muslims in the MENA. So year by year they have stirred the pot of hatred between the faiths. Until today we see their “witches brew” simmering on the pot. Its time we all,Muslims,Christians,and non-zionist Jews,realize what is happening and stop it. Russia protecting Syria,and becoming friendly with Iran is a good beginning. But that alone is not enough. We have to reaize ourselves how we are being “used” and stop letting ourselves “fall” for those tricks. Daesh,and other Wahhabi fundamentalists are a backlash over the West and Israels actions. They are an evil bunch, true. But they don’t represent the over a billion Muslims in the World,anymore than Hitler and his bunch represented “Christians” during WW2.
So kill them! Why are you whining so much about it? What are you waiting for? We learned from you that all the mosques and madrassas are their dens and whoever finds himself inside such architectural structures is a legitimate target. Fine. According to your programming, of course.
But, to deal with them, we’ll also have to deal with you – as you are giving them so much food with your ranting (yes, ranting) even they can’t swallow. Or, to put it more closer to your programming: their arrogance is in no way different from your arrogance. You are the sides of the same coin!
And, it never helps to „forget“ how horrendously „YOUR RADICALS“ are killing us with thousands of tanks, sofisticated murdering drones and aircrafts, artillery, ammo with depleted uranium and God knows what else! Shall we threaten you or must we admit that – as you put it – you are stronger and to be obeyed?!
Shall we support „our radicals“ to help us to defend from you? What are your „orders“ for us „moderates“? Do we have a choice, if you do not have one? When is your „reform“ due?
The Holy Qur’an teaches us that Iblis (Antichrist) is what he is because of – arrogance!
This essay is at root profoundly subversive of Islam–and of religion generally. The author is an avowed secularist, who therefore has no problem throwing out the baby with the bath water. As if the sacred were a purely human invention, and as if it is not obvious that men are capable of every abuse, and as if it were not the case that corruptio optimi pessima (the corruption of the best is the worst). And as if the secularist and essentially materialist-humanist outlook represents a solution. The West, which has thrown off the “yoke” of religion (to use the author’s expression) hardly represents a paradisal utopia, and perhaps the author forgets that without its colonial depredations it would not be the materialist mecca that it is today for “Oriental” naifs like the author. Its power came from its firepower not its cultural superiority, which on the contrary manifested summits (or nadirs) of barbarity.
At any rate, what truly represents a religion outwardly are its sacred art on the one hand, and its saints and sages on the other. Their very existence, and the millenial civilizations in which they are embedded, are proof of the sacred, of religion, of Revelation.
As Christ said, “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat.”
For those interested, here is a list of authentic books on Islam (one could easily do the same for Christianity, East and West).
What Does Islam Mean in Today’s World?: Religion, Politics, Spirituality–William Stoddart
Islam and the Destiny of Man–Charles Le Gai Eaton
Vision of Islam (Visions of Reality)–Sachiko Murata
Muhammad: His Life Based on the Earliest Sources–Martin Lings
The Book of Hadith: Sayings of the Prophet Muhammad from the Mishkat al Masabih–Charles Le Gai Eaton
The Study Quran: A New Translation and Commentary–Seyyed Hossein Nasr
Kashf al-Asrar: The Unveiling of the Mysteries (Great Commentaries of the Holy Qur’an)– William C. Chittick
Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenge and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet’s Legact–Jonathan A.C. Brown
Islam, Fundamentalism & the Betrayal of Tradition, Revised–edited by Joseph E. B. Lumbard
Refuting ISIS: A Rebuttal Of Its Religious And Ideological Foundations–Shaykh Muhammad Al-Yaqoubi
Recollecting the Spirit of Jihad–http://www.amaana.org/ikhwan/rezajihad.htm
Do Muslims and Christians Believe in the same God?–http://faith.yale.edu/sites/default/files/shah-kazemi_final_paper_0.pdf
Emir Abd el-Kader: Hero and Saint of Islam–Ahmed Bouyerdene
“As if the sacred were a purely human invention”
As far as I’m concerned it is, and I’ve yet to see any evidence to the contrary that isn’t either self-referential or mere hand-waving.
All religions are based on Faith, which is to say, belief in something that can’t be objectively proven. As such, religion stands in opposition to Reason, regardless of how much faux reason religion brings to the table in support of its Faith.
Thus, these arguments over the “correct” interpretation of the “sacred” are nothing more than one form of faith vs another, in short, irrelevant in terms of rational analysis. People will believe what they believe based on childhood indoctrination and the culture in which they’re embedded. Therefore, the ONLY criteria by which I judge religion is the degree to which it tolerates dissent, and in that regard Islam is demonstrably lacking, no matter how much spin you put on it.
You write like a good pupil of Richard Dawkins. If you want an intellectually rigorous refutation of this (and other “new atheists”) philosophical non-entity, read Edward Feser’s book, “The Last Superstition.” See also http://edwardfeser.blogspot.mx/2015/10/walter-mitty-atheism.html
—————————————-
“The fool has said in his heart, ‘there is no God.’ ”
“When the inferior man hears talk about Tao, he only laughs at it; it would not be Tao if he did not laugh at it … the self-evidence of Tao is taken for a darkness.” — Tao te Ching
“I also write on politics, from a conservative point of view; and on religion, from a traditional Roman Catholic perspective.”
I would not expect solid material in his thoughts, and certainly not intellectual rigor, since he already has his bias and his mind made up. There’s no shortage of philosophers and philosophy profs who take other, and maybe completely opposite views. (I’m an ‘old atheist’.) You can’t just take some philosopher as an authroity and a question is settled.
Personally, I became an atheistic ignostic long before I ever heard of Dawkins.
James you state “This essay is at root profoundly subversive of Islam–and of religion generally. The author is an avowed secularist, who therefore has no problem throwing out the baby with the bath water.” Your comment could not be further from the truth. It is in fact the complete opposite and clearly a Muslim who is very high level of Arabic literacy can see this person is deeply concerned that the holy word has been distorted and misused.
Since when is wearing the hijab a form of dangerous radicalization, as this article suggests. This kind of statement supports the absurd ban on Muslim headgear ban in France, just to point out one little facet of the article’s broad-brush Islamophobic slander.
Do we really want to amplify the lying, false, disgusting war on “Terror” (predominantly a US war of terror against Muslim states and populations, and against US civil society) even more by printing this kind of demeaning article?
The author generalizes the Saudi-nurtured and US-promoted Daesh as if it were an actual representative of a world religion. You might as well take the “Lords Army” in Uganda and generalize it to represent all of Christianity — and in doing so, you would miss the 500-year onslaught of high-tech European invaders who plunder the world. Their Christian religions are not central to the pluder, only a peripheral issue.)
removed. No attacking guest writer. You can agree to disagree.Mod TR
Overall, I have greatly appreciated the Saker website, and have even donated once.
Very interesting article. What we are lacking is a historical cultural-anthropological analysis of modern Islam. Something like Norbert Elias’ Über die Deutschen – the only convincing explanation of German Nationalsozialismus I know. Or like Zygmunt Baumann’s Modernity.and The Holocaust.
Islam is certainly something very different to the strange syncretism of Conservative Revolution (Thule Society), the anarchosyndicalist aspects of Röhm’s Sturmabteilung, and the Black Sun of the SS.
Islam is one of three Abrahamitic religions which share one common issue in addition to their monotheism: The slaughter of Issac ordered by God. The willingness of Abraham to obey by killing his son. God stopped the act and hailed the strengh of Abraham’s faith.
The core of this meme might be the historical transition from human sacrifice to making sacrifices of animals in religious practices. However, in historical practice, often only the first part of the meme remained relevant. And God usually does not to interrupt (in particular, if the slaughter was not requested by her). Think Langemarck and quite some other places.
The phenomenon of National Socialism is convincingly explained by Nikolay Starikov in his »Episodes« on OrientalReview.org, here’s Episode 1. Bank of England. It is Anglo-Zionist political engineering to send a nation through a rollercoaster dive down the Weimar ruin and depression, with a subsequent guided and assisted rise under a new leader to prop the German nation up for the Death Match with Russia, according to Anglo planning, while pushing Jews, wealthy or young and vital, to Palestine, according to Zionist planning.
In short, the Anglo plan didn’t work properly at first because Hitler (or his advisers in the State Apparatus) saw the danger of confrontation with Russia … In the end, unfortunately, the outcome was as desired by Albion … thanks to Stalin’s desastrous arrogance (Victor Suvorov, The Icebreaker). Ruinous defeat for Germany, ruinous victory for Russia, Anglo foothold in the Heart of Europe.
The Zionist plan did work. It created a colony in Palestine known as Israel. It created another colony in the Western Mind known as Holocaust.
Zionists like Norbert Elias, unsurprisingly, give completely different explanations of National Socialism, starting from the well-known Hoax mentioned above.
The SAA is a national army, and whilst it has an overwhelming number of Suunis amongst its ranks, it is not represent Sunnis and it is not a forum for religious reform.
Anonymous. Have you ever experienced seeing just a single Muslim family getting radicalised? You obviously haven’t. Wearing the Hijab on its own is nothing, but it is a sure step towards radicalisation.
I have seen this happen to hundreds of families, including cousins, but of course you know better.
Dear Nasir, I too am a Muslim, and read your article with great interest. I do agree with certain things you say; the examples you gave of the literal misrepresentations of certain words or concepts is true. However to blame fundamentalism on only literal meanings, is a pseudo intell ctual exercise.
Islamic terrorism is a recent phenomenon. It’s history is political, social, and economic. At this time, I won’t go into details.
Likewise I disagree the hijab is a starting point of fundamentalism. In many cultures, it just is the way it is, with or without Islam. Hindu women cover their faces, though the cloth style is different. As do nuns.
Perhaps, some day, I’ll present my views here with the Sakers permission. Thanks.
Finally!! A sobering analysis from a secular perspective with inside and direct knowledge on the subject matter from an ethnic Muslim.
What this author writes about is more or less the same I often hear/read from: apostates, ex-Muslims, converts and rational Muslims. They all agree Islam need reforming, and I can’t support them more on the point that this push for reform needs to come from the inside [Quote from the article: “Nothing other than in-house reform can reform Islam”].
-TL2Q
Hello commenters. I read through your opinions and something stood out to me so please allow me the chance for plain talking.
I see a number of people who seem Western, don’t speak Arabic and if they do, would not have the highly sophisticated level of Arabic and the cultural and religious insight needed, as this author has, to even begin to understand the Quran. Most Arabic people don’t even have that!
Those commenters urging us to read other Western converts or researchers work on this demonstrates the problem even more so.
I’m going to be harsh here and make a generalization and I’m sure there’s exceptions –
It seems the Western mind must have dominion on everything and this includes knowing about Islam despite not having the linguistic or cultural background. Westerners know everything and Westerners have the final say on everything no matter how inadequate their knowledge or experience of something maybe! They must have the final judgement, the final say!
OK Rajia, let’s make a step ahead and assume that you are right, what means “Westerners” are unable to understand the Islam as long as they do not possess “the highly sophisticated level of Arabic” that is even uncommon among native speakers.
“When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth” is a valid research and investigation method. So why not to go a further step in your direction and eliminate more kind of people who must be obviously “unable to understand the Islam”? May be after some elimination rounds we’ll find those remainders who really know and can tell us.
Bilito, yes that is correct. If by miracle one day the Quran is explained to Arabic speakers in its correct meaning then it will be translated correctly! Just absorb the enormity of the problem when the author explains how the most foundational concepts have been twisted to mean the most opposite! What a disaster! What a disaster for all Muslims and which brave clerics who can argue theologically along what this writer is saying will be able to keep their heads on! Mr Shami please take on the theological debate with the head clerics! What are they going to say? They are able to condemn ISIS and we see evidence of this but they never dare to take the argument on theocratically because then all will be lost and Islam will be in a deep crisis but in my view a constructive crisis.
» It seems the Western mind must have dominion on everything and this includes knowing about Islam despite not having the linguistic or cultural background. Westerners know everything and Westerners have the final say on everything no matter how inadequate their knowledge or experience of something maybe! They must have the final judgement, the final say! «
Exactly. Comment of the Week, of the Month, of the Year.
Yes, there are exceptions, and many … referring to Germany here … common people who don’t feel the urge to engage in lofty discussions about things which they don’t know anything about. They want to be left in peace and live their lives. They don’t take much interest in academic stuff or, truth be told, foreign cultures. You won’t find them on this kind of blog because they’ll never contribute anything to the discussion. They live in relative ignorance, but this ignorance is better, in my humble view, than the cultural arrogance found with many academic people, especially »left-wing/liberal« academics.
Some examples.
When the US/EU staged their coup d’état in the Ukraine, there was full-time non-stop propaganda about how the Ukraine matters and it’s important to support the Just Cause of Freedom and Democracy against the Evil Russkies, Evil Kremlin, Evil Putin. And this propaganda was picked up and repeated by the academic stratum of society, although they don’t know anything about the Ukraine but what they read in the propaganda press, and although they don’t even speak Russian. Common people, on the other hand, don’t understand what all the fuss is about and why Ukrainian politics should matter to us or be any reason for concern or even a point of interest. Common people think »geht uns nichts an«, »none of our business«, period. But common people have no say whatsoever in Western Democracies.
There are many »human rights« organizations (such as Amnesty International) which convince liberal/left-wing academic people that they should intervene and interfere in other countries and other cultures to bring »human rights« there up to »democratic standards«. In itself, might not sound too bad. However, if you think about it, it’s very bad. Amnesty International has, as a working rule, not to have its members interfere into the business of their own country. So Germans shouldn’t do any human rights work in Germany. Rather, they should get busy doing propaganda work to improve the human rights situation in China, Iran, Russia, or Turkey. They are encouraged to believe that they need not know anything about China, Iran, Russia, or Turkey. No need to learn the language, to understand the culture, to talk to the people – just criticize and do propaganda work. And this is the way they operate. They know because they are Truth Incarnate and other cultures must therefore be wrong.
There are Anglo natives (Usanians or others) on this blog (and elsewhere) who constantly refer to anything they perceive as politically or morally bad by reference to Nazi/Hitler/Goebbels/SS/etc. They clearly aren’t uneducated people, but it doesn’t seem to occur to them that they have more than enough bad aspects in their very own culture and country and history. It is basically an entire 20th century full of Anglo lies, deceit and genocide, massively targetting civilians, women, children. Yet, instead of owning up, as any honest guy would do, they find it more convenient to project these aspects outwards to good old Hitler and Germany, as such has been their Anglo-Zionist indoctrination. But do they understand German to be able to check some of the things they believe? Of course they don’t – because it’s not necessary if you already own the Truth, so why bother?
I think this Western cultural arrogance, based on extreme superficiality and grotesquely heightened sense of (personal and collective) ego, originated in the so-called »interventionist« part of the U.S. propaganda circus, but it has been exported to European countries, and successfully implanted in parts of the academic stratum. I locate it in the »interventionist« corner because this arrogance has, as its purpose, the justification for meddling, intervention, intrusion, war, in Vladimir Putin’s fitting words, Airstrike Democracy.
All that follows is in the context of Islam. If I was speaking to a Buddhist my terms would be those understood by them.
You are a brave soul and may Allah protect you at your every step. I too assert that Fatah, Jihad and Shahada have been misunderstood and in the manner you have described.
I would suggest to you that Al-Qiyamah (The Resurrection) is taking place and that you should not be despondent.
Fatah and Yoga are the same. Allah has already made this manifest to many people and of them many have taken up the true Jihad. Look to your crown and desire Allah bless you also with the “opening” and subsequent “disclosure”. This requires no education or external struggle. Forgiveness of all others and self’ and willingness to follow the will of God as expressed within is required. Verification comes with the sensation of Ruh on the central nervous system as a cool breeze flowing from the crown of the head. This blessing has been offered to all who seek it with the hope that many would accept it and struggle to perfect themselves. If one is not truly surrendered and still follows the lead of ego and/or conditioning the sensation of Ruh will diminish. This would indicate a move away from Allah and a return to the previous state.
This is probably a lot to take in and reaction would probably be strong. I too would not have normally expressed this on a forum like this. I was inspired by you.
All I can say is try it if you sincerely seek union with God.
Lord Jesus has returned. Look for Him. You may recognize Him. If Ruh is sensed on the central nervous system then you just have to ask Allah if this person you think may be Lord Jesus is truly He. Your hands will speak, meaning the sensation of Ruh over the crown of the head will be manifest on the palms of your own hands when raised upward while asking. Do this in the quiet of your personal space and away from distractions.
If you or others wish to assist in the inner transformation of not only yourselves and all you love into a people beloved of the Creator then take up the blessing and struggle within. Let Allah be your guide from within. Let Ruh indicate to you whether you are with Allah or moving away.
For those who think I’m a crack pot or worse I have no retort. I am what I am.
This is a time of tribulation for those who are moving away from Allah and a time of inner Peace and inner Transformation for those with Him. We must choose our Path.
If you are a crackpot my friend, then this makes two of us.
dear friend Sanjeev
i thank-you so much for this description of the blessing experience of ruh. As a practicing Christian I recognize in your words my experience of the Holy Spirit. I am so happy to know this is Allah.
I wish (and pray) that all could be so Blessed to know this sublime touch upon the crown and the living breath of God fingering the strings of the (otherwise sleeping) nervous system. Yes- this is the return of Jesus Christ for everyone and for the whole of creation regardless of religion or status.
May Human Beings Hear It.
(Ruh is also written as ruah or ruach)
Saudi Arabia’s Top Cleric Says Daesh Militants Are ‘Israeli Soldiers’
Saudi Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdulaziz Al Sheikh urged increased Islamic cooperation against Daesh, claiming that the militant group was a “part of the Israeli army.”
The Mufti’s statements followed remarks attributed to secretive Daesh leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi in a 24-minute audio recording released last week. In the recording Al-Baghdadi called the new Saudi-led alliance a US ‘puppy’ and threatened to turn Israel into a “graveyard,” saying Daesh has “not forgotten Palestine for a single moment.”
During a telephone interview with the Saudi Gazette, Al Sheikh spoke in support of an Islamic anti-terrorism military alliance and vowed to defeat the Daesh extremists, claiming that the actions of the violent religious group are heretical and un-Islamic.
“They cannot be considered as followers of Islam,” he said. “Rather, they are an extension of Kharijites, who rose in revolt against the Islamic caliphate for the first time by labeling Muslims as infidels and permitting their bloodletting.”
As for al Baghdadi’s pledge to attack Israel, the 72-year old Al Sheikh said that it was a lie and that Daesh jihadists were part of Israeli army.
“Actually Daesh is part of the Israeli soldiers,” he stated, asserting an alliance between the Israeli army and Daesh militants.
The pronouncements by both Al Sheikh and al-Baghdadi make it obvious that Israel remains a politically charged issue in the kingdom.
Saudi Arabia on December 15 announced the formation of a coalition to counter terrorism, created by Deputy Crown Prince and Defense Minister Prince Muhammed bin Salman. Member states include Egypt, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Turkey, Malaysia, Pakistan and Gulf Arab and several African states.
Read more: http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151230/1032472961/saudi-mufti-says-daesh-militants-are-israeli-soldiers.html#ixzz3vkULRA5G
John, your heading “Saudi Arabia’s Top Cleric Says Daesh Militants Are ‘Israeli Soldiers’”. I am not surprised!
The ISIS have been threatening the house of Saud from early days even though they were getting financed by them as their ways disgust them! Yes and we know the close relationship these “royals” have with Israelis ! Reports maybe two years ago, in Arabic language media, that a good majority of Saudi citizens like or sympathise with ISIS and now it is clear that things are becoming so serious to the point of Saudi clerics, to save the Al Saud regime, saying the soldiers of ISIS are Israeli and publicly backing the “alliance” to wipe out their child who went against them. There are plenty misdirected Muslims in the world who will join up – not Israelis who have a panic attack if they even come face to face with an Arabic person in a peaceful setting.
The situation is very serious in Saudi Arabia as ISIS is very, very popular and for the regime to go against them is seen as against Islam. So they must do something about that. The Saudi regime taught for three or so generations their people that this is the kind of thing (ISIS) they should advocate and engage in and suddenly their regime is fighting against this. They must do something very dramatic to stop a revolt against them by the people.
VoltaireNet.org 24.11.2015
More than 500 jihadists cared for at the Ziv Medical Centre
Jerusalem Post 03/13/2015
Report: Israel treating al-Qaida fighters wounded in Syria civil war
Many respondents are missing the message here or are using the opportunity to bash Islam. This is not the point this essay is saying. If some want to express their opinions, it is up to the blogmaster to publish their work or comments, but to make irrelevant comments under the guise of responding to my essay is not the way to have intelligent discussions.
The crux of the message of the essay is that Islam is one thing and that its commonly-held understanding is something else. If anyone wants to refute this and do it properly, then this has to be done in accordance with comparing notes; ie Koranic word vs. its interpretation, and not what some orientalist, leader or writer or scholar said. If one does not possess this knowledge, then without any offence intended, this person is unable to or unqualified to make an informed response and can better benefit from listening and reading.
Sufis throughout the ages tried hard to look at the subtle and sublime message in Islam, but they were shunned and persecuted.
Reference has been made to Hadith. Which Hadith? Sunnis and Shia continue to quarrel about many things including which Hadith is authentic and which isn’t. So how does one really know? I use the guideline of logic. The Koran is “The Reference”, and if Hadith disagrees with the Koran, then it has to be thrown out of the window. The ubiquitous manner in which Hadith is put in par with the Koran is unfounded when contradictions between the two are very obvious to see by the astute.
This essay is not intended to demonise Islam or to give a bandwagon for Muslim haters to jump onto. For those with such intentions, keep your dark thoughts to yourselves.
I understand that this essay is not to demonise islam, and i share the statement that this essay is not meant to be a platform for muslimhaters, i also believe that hating muslims is wrong, but i fully disagree that in islam it is free for every muslim believer to interpret qur’an as he likes and as he likes that is not true, and i am absolutely convinced that islam is demonic in nature and source.
Dont tell people that the hadith and sunnah of mohammed are not equally important and obligatory
Sura 3 aya 32 is clear: obey allah and obey the messenger[…]
Obey his words and actions he is your rolemodel the hadith/sunna contain mohammeds sayings and actions you should obey.
The life of mohammed and the life of jihadists is the same
http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/ex-muslim-imam-writes-open-letter-obama-rebuking-history-islam/
plus credentials
http://globalfaithinstitute.org/about/dr-mark-christian/
“i am absolutely convinced that islam is demonic in nature and source.”
Showing you are completely bigoted and filled with ignorance and hatred, understanding nothing of either Islam or religion. You are spouting typical right wing pseudo-Christian fanaticism and immature self-righteous calumny.
The link you give is a bad joke filled with lies and hate written by a “Mark Christian” (the name he changed to), a fringe zionist wacko (or a CIA asset).
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015/02/dr-mark-christian-on-islam-it-is-this-simple-islam-reigns-or-islam-fights/
If this is a source of your information it’s no wonder that you are so far off track.
blue, the lunacy of claiming to have no hatred for Moslems, then, a few lines later, claiming that Islam is ‘demonic’, is indicative, in my opinion of a, shall we say, ‘unbalanced’ psychology.
Maybe this comment will be published — the last few I made were not. We’ll see.
I’m seeing a fair bit of right wing, anti-Muslim, and zionist material here lately, which I find disturbing (and also some personal attacks on me). But it’s like trying to camp in a sandy desert without getting sand inyour shoes — it creeps in from everywhere — and the anti-Muslim, etc., is a major propaganda thrust from the empire — as are contradictions form the US, etc. in many areas. One might say unbalanced psychology is US policy. Expect it.
s.a.top. Muslims are ordered to obey the “Messenger”, all messengers. Jesus included. The command is not exclusive for Mohamed. As a matter of fact, the Koran explicitly speaks of obeying Jesus (by name) but there is no similar mention to Mohamed (by name). Please get you facts right if you really want to have an intelligent discussion.
It is obey the messenger singular meaning only mohammed why do you change your own religion this is apostasy under islamic law.
The identity of the messenger is clearly identified in the shahada one of the 5 pillars of islam it is mohammed and him alone who is that messenger no one else.
And here is the proof for you sura 7 aya 158
Transliteration
Qul ya ayyuha annasuinnee rasoolu Allahi ilaykum jameeAAan allatheelahu mulku assamawati wal-ardila ilaha illa huwa yuhyee wayumeetufaaminoo billahi warasoolihi annabiyyial-ommiyyi allathee yu/minu billahi wakalimatihiwattabiAAoohu laAAallakum tahtadoon
Yusuf Ali
Say: “O men! I am sent unto you all, as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth: there is no god but He: it is He That giveth both life and death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Unlettered Prophet, who believeth in Allah and His words: follow him that (so) ye may be guided.”
This is “allah speaking” to mohammed what to preach to the people about mohammed himself.
Jesus was never sent by allah to the arabs and he clearly was not unlettered.
If you want to mock your own mohammed and twist your own religion it is your responsability, but do not include my Lord Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God (rejected by all muslims) in your mockery.
@sa top. You are twisting facts and deliberately. The Koranic verse you referred to (5:158) does not Mohamed by name, and even though the general interpretation is as you mentioned, there is no justification for it. The Koran has repeatedly mentioned that it does not differentiate between Messengers and Books. When the term “Al Kitab” (literally meaning the book) is mentioned, it means all books and not any one in specific, and so should be the interpretation of the word “Arrasoul” which literally means the Messenger.
Your obstinate argument is based on the interpretations that the essay is trying to dispel because you are a man with an indoctrinated agenda. If you want to have a discussion with me, base it on what the essay has said not on what main stream Islam or Christianity say. You are diverting the discussion and unless you get on track with the subject matter I will have to ignore further comments from you because you are obviously not getting it or unable to get it.
akhi the smell of Jahiliyyah is getting heavy or is it the a smoke screen of taqqiyya hmm.
Stop dancing, here sura 48 aya 29
Transliteration
Muhammadun rasoolu Allahi wallatheenamaAAahu ashiddao AAala alkuffari ruhamaobaynahum tarahum rukkaAAan sujjadan yabtaghoona fadlanmina Allahi waridwanan seemahum feewujoohihim min athari assujoodi thalika mathaluhumfee attawrati wamathaluhum fee al-injeelikazarAAin akhraja shat-ahu faazarahu fastaghlathafastawa AAala sooqihi yuAAjibu azzurraAAaliyagheetha bihimu alkuffara waAAada Allahuallatheena amanoo waAAamiloo assalihatiminhum maghfiratan waajran AAatheema
Yusuf Ali
Muhammad is the messenger of Allah; and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.
Do i need to teach you qur’an ? You are a lying about your own religion, if your real muslim brothers knew what you are doing here you would be in big trouble.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LXBgqa-xQwY
Hmmm,maybe I smell hasbara. The big gainers from the Islamophobia you preach are the Israeli zionists.
Bob, as the real Osama observed, as he denied responsibility for 9/11, the Zionazis have been seeking to set the West and Islam at each others’ throats for years. Whenever you scratch a Western Islamophobe these days you find a Jewish Zionazi or a Sabbat Goy stooge, up front or pulling the strings. They are typically arrogant and undisguised about it, Jewish Princess Pamela Geller’s ‘Stop the Islamisation of Nations’ spelling SION, a variant of Zion. And, of course, the Hitlerite crimes of destroying Iraq, Libya and Syria in aggressions linked to the deliberate fomenting of sectarian strife, is pure Zionazi doctrine, ie the infamous Oded Yinon Plan.
Do you have any remote idea of how many jews were murdered by mohammed and his companions ?
Do you? Were you there to count them. And you do realize they were from Arab tribes that followed Judaism. Most of which (and in Palestine) over centuries converted to Islam. Throughout history there are many cases of people “converting” to different faiths. The Germans and Scandinavians converted to Christianity under “pain of death” from their rulers. The same for the mass of Slavs as well. There of course were “true” converts. And over the centuries most of the peoples there became devote Christians. The Roman Empire did the same when it ordered all its subjects to accept Christianity. And the Crusaders in the Baltic States brought Christianity to those states with “fire and sword”. In the Arab World most of the peoples converted to Islam over centuries. And for a multitude of reasons. Force being only one of them (and one of the lesser reasons). Missionary work,prestige reasons,intermarriage,those were the largest reasons. And as some Christian scholars have mentioned. On a “peasant” level back then there wasn’t a great deal of difference between the faiths. And without a Christian priesthood available in the rural MENA to keep the flock Christian. They,over time,just accepted Islam and became Muslim. Simplistic answers to complicated events in history are just wrong. The World and human beings in it are very diverse. There is no real “one size fits all” to explain how people accept religions (and leave others).It has to be studied on a country by country basis.
You are once again using the same illogic I am refuting in order to prove me wrong. This is a logical fallacy not to mention your charged and bigoted approach that is totally and utterly unchristian.
FYI, the word Mohamed means “praiseworthy”. In the Aya you mentioned, it is used literally and not as a proper name. But Islamic and “Christian” bigots use this to support their arguments, each in his own way, either to promote an ideology or to, in your case, fight it.
Look, I don’t blame you for not understanding Islam when Muslims do not understand it, but for you to use main stream Islamic mindsets, which stands for everything you claim to stand up against in order to attack my argument, is hypocritical to say the least
Keep dancing.
The meaning of the name of mohammed is well known to me it has nothing to do with the name clearly being in the qur’an(4 times) and identifying the “messenger of allah” for who he is mohammed and not jesus.
Islam itself is the problem it is violent and evil in its core teaching enshrined in the qur’an and life of mohammed, that is why westernised or moderate islam(wich is false interpretation) will always remain the source of new little terrorist mohammeds because he is the “perfect rolemodel” of islam obligatory to follow for every muslim, while his life was violent and evil, and that is the reason why i stand up against your article, it has nothing to do with hate for muslims but it has everything to do with standing for the truth no matter what and expose the lie that islam is a religion of peace and isis got it wrong.
Even if you go to iran and tell the religious authorities the lies you tell me about your religion they will hang you, in saudiarabia they will behead you, in egypt the muslim brotherhood will murder you, you dont need isis for that, wake up to reality.
It is impossible to reform islam evil is locked in forever.
Reflections on Islam and Modern Life
http://www.al-islam.org/al-serat/vol-6-no-1/reflections-islam-and-modern-life/reflections-islam-and-modern-life
Dispelling Myths About Sharia Law In Al-Islam Part 1
http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/index.php/al-islam/understaningalislam/62-dispelling-myths-about-sharia-law-in-al-islam-part-1
———————————–
Islam’s Record of Tolerance
The leading British scholar of Islam of his generation, Sir Hamilton Gibb, wrote in 1932:
Islam possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and co-operation. No other society has such a record of success in uniting, in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavour, so many and so various races of humanity.
Bernard Lewis
Multiple Identities of the Middle East, 1998
Pluralism is part of the holy law of Islam, and these rules are on many points detailed and specific. Unlike Judaism and Christianity, Islam squarely confronts the problem of religious tolerance … For Muslims, the treatment of the religious other is not a matter of opinion or choice, of changing interpretations and judgments according to circumstances. It rests on scriptural and legal texts, that is to say, for Muslims, on holy writ and sacred law.
Norman Daniel
Islam, Europe and Empire (1966
“The notion of toleration in Christendom was borrowed from Muslim practice.”
John Locke: “Letter Concerning Toleration”, 1689:
Christian denominations were free to enact their specific forms of Christian worship if they lived in the Muslim Ottoman Empire, but not if they lived in certain parts of Christian Europe. So:
“Would the Turks not silently stand by and laugh to see with what inhuman cruelty Christians thus rage against Christians?”
@sa top. The Koran calls for obeying the prophet, all prophets, equally, Jesus included. It does not specifically call for obeying Mohamed
Equally? Does the Shahadah says:”There is no God but God and Jesus and Muhammad are the Messengers of God”?
Does the Koran calls for obeying Jesus when He says “I and My Father are One”?
No, theKoran says:
“Allah Has no Son Those who believe that Allah has a son must be admonished since this is a monstrous blasphemy and falsehood (18:4-6). Allah has never begotten a son and there are no deities beside him (23:91). Jews say that Ezra is the son of Allah while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of Allah. May Allah destroy them. They are both perverted. They worship rabbis, monks and the Messiah, the son of Mary, as Lords besides Allah in opposition to the monotheistic command given them (9:30, 31)”.
“Stop Saying, “Three” People of the Bible should not exaggerate. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, his word he cast to Mary and a spirit from him. So believe in Allah and his messengers and stop saying “three”. Allah is only one. He is too transcendent and majestic to have a son. The Messiah is not ashamed to be a slave of Allah (4:171,172, 5:72,73).
Unbelievers are the ones who say that Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary (5:19).
“The Christians, Jews and idol worshipers, who do not believe in Mohammed or the Qur’an, are going to burn forever in hell and are the worst creatures on earth (98:6).”
Toleration?
WisOz, the Shahada (correctly said Shadadatein) are not mentioned in the Koran. Your question therefore is irrelevant. Please get your facts right.
“The Christians, Jews and idol worshipers, who do not believe in Mohammed or the Qur’an, are going to burn forever in hell and are the worst creatures on earth (98:6).”
Toleration?”
You might not know it ,but it wasn’t that long ago (and maybe still is in some places). That one Christian sect thought like that about another Christian sect. And certainly all did about Jews. I remember in my family some were of different Protestant sects. One Sunday one group got the other group to go to Church with them. When they got back to my grandparents house,the first group was quiet. And the other group was noticeably upset. My grandmother asked what the sermon was on that Sunday. The first group said nothing but was red faced. One of the second group answered “it was about Baptists,and how we are going to hell”. No one said anything to each other for most of the rest of the day. So the idea of “toleration” isn’t in what people may “think” or not. Its what they can legally “do”. While (as an example) Catholics or Protestants or Orthodox might “think” the other is an abomination. And all think that about Judaism. In a law system of “tolerance” they can only think that and not act to repress those faiths.
2 points:
About the article: Any analysis with the simplistic premise that there is a true Islam (or Christianity, or any belief system, for that matter), and a distorted Islam, is not likely to be very useful. Solve this problem by re-defining 3 words? Really?
About the comments: Any one saying moslems don’t stand up to radical Islam has been willfully ignoring the incredible resolve and tenacity of the SAA.
Are you an Islamic scholar? Do you know Arabic, Farsi, Turkish, Urdu, Bahasa Indonesia? Or are you merely an opinionated person.
In point of fact, there is such a thing as Islamic orthodoxy as well as divergence of opinion on that on which divergence is both normal and orthodox. This is the case for any religion.
Ikhtilaf al-‘ulama’ rahmah.
The SAA is a national army, and whilst it has an overwhelming number of Suunis amongst its ranks, it is not represent Sunnis and it is not a forum for religious reform.
Almost all Muslims worldwide abhor ISIS for its brutal acts that violate Islamic tenets, study shows
http://www.christiantoday.com/article/almost.all.muslims.worldwide.abhor.isis.for.its.brutal.acts.that.violate.islamic.tenets.study.shows/73063.htm
http://www.alternet.org/world/overwhelmingly-negative-views-isis-nations-significant-muslim-populations-survey-finds
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/
I’m sorry to inform you John that in many “heartlands” of Sunnis in the Middle East and West, ISIS is admired within the community and in wider public condemned and I know this as fact!
I imagine that this is why the author agonised so much about how to write this article. It’s probably most important article written in last few decades about the issue. Muslim Clerics will know that and those with good heart will start to think about the things said in the article.
“It’s probably most important article written in last few decades about the issue.”
Ridiculous!
Also, regarding the Pew poll, do you not see the difference between your individual impressions and an objective poll? It is this sort of sentimental subjectivism that ruins so many comboxes in otherwise worthwhile blogs. People have their experiences and then irresponsibly and foolishly extrapolate from them illegitimately. People have to wade through volumes of nonsense and various degrees of irresponsibility or ill will.
I might add that the article is patently a mediocre one, and the author’s grasp of the religion likewise mediocre–and even, as James noted, deeply subversive of it. How could it be taken as reliable by sensible people, let alone by those learned in the subject? Why do such opinionated dilettantes feel they can bloviate at will, as though their feelings are of great importance?
The blogosphere is absolutely riddled with highly opinionated and ignorant people. I doubt even 1% of this blog’s readers will take the trouble to read–or have read–even part of James’ excellent reading list posted earlier, and which even includes a very good volume on Islamic fundamentalism by scholars in the field. No, too many people would rather read the wikipedia and conclude they are now experts, and then get back to playing on the i-phones or get back to chatting on Facebook.
@Karen Armstrong is a very good place to start,…What Armstrong says is hardly unknown — she is a world famous scholar, researcher, author, and expert on this
Karen Armstrong is the worst place to start. A scholar she is not, researcher neither, expert on this the least of all. She is an author of blatant anti-Christian propaganda, an apostate former nun and self-styled “freelance monotheist”. She actually misleads people with denials of historical facts like: “Muhammad was not a belligerent warrior.” “The idea that Islam should conquer the world was alien to the Koran…” “Muhammad did not shun non-Muslims as ‘unbelievers’ but from the beginning co-operated with them in the pursuit of the common good.” “Islam was not a closed system at variance with other traditions. Muhammad insisted that relations between the different groups must be egalitarian.” Fallacies equivalent with the most frequent one today: Jihad does not mean jihad!
Naturally she is very “accessible” for the ignorant who nevertheless believes that he knows everything because it took him/her years to “unlearn” whatever he/she knew and replaced them with more ignorant slogans (like Obama’s recent rants: “Unless we get on our high horse and think this [beheadings, sex-slavery, crucifixion, roasting humans] is unique to some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition, people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ”).
Do you know that the Turks celebrate the desecration of the Hagia Sophia, which saw countless Christians enslaved, raped, or slaughtered, as the day of their greatest victory, as a “time of enlightenment.” Actually as the fulfillment of Koranic “prophecy”?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Armstrong#Career
[…]
Career
In 1976, Armstrong took a job teaching English at James Allen’s Girls’ School in Dulwich while working on a memoir of her convent experiences. This was published in 1982 as Through the Narrow Gate to excellent reviews………
The readers can go to the link you provided, no need to put the whole text here.
OK, and I hope they do, with the listing of her career and also honors, which puts the lie to the disparaging post about her.
moderator, its not in Saker’s policy to not put text from other links is it ?
I would have liked to read blues text…
Ann, just click on the link she provided.
Sure, but the point remains the same.
There are no rules against posting text. Right?
The link is an added convenience.
But having the relevant text in the post is often most convenient.
Katherine
Karen Armstrong is nobody. She is totally unknown in the Muslim World and her opinion does not go any further than Western consumption.
“In 1999 Armstrong received the Muslim Public Affairs Council’s Media Award.[”
Does not the ‘Muslim world’ also include Muslims in the West?
It seems some, at least, in the Muslim world has heard of her. Not quite nobody. Did you read the wikipedia link?
http://forum.islamstory.com/41573-karen-armstrong.html
“Because she wrote many books about Islamic precepts, she was sought for much more to deliver lectures especially after the 9/11 attacks. In February 2008, she was invited to a council of Muslim, Christian and Jewish leaders to take part in formulating a charter of compassion to identify shared moral priorities across religious traditions in order to foster global understanding and a peaceful world. Her interfaith dialogue initiative won the $100,000 TED Prize in February 2008,”
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/b9176.html
HomeBooksSirah, the Life of the Prophet MuhammadMuhammad: A Prophet for Our Time (Eminent Lives) (Paperback) (Karen Armstrong)
http://www.islamicbookstore.com/info.html
Metric Networks Inc. DBA Islamic Bookstore.com, founded in 1996, is a Baltimore-based retailer of Islamic and Muslim-themed books and other media and religious and cultural products. We have customers in all 50 U.S. states, Canada, United Kingdom, Singapore, Malaysia, and more than 30 other countries.
http://www.minaret.org/review1.htm
BOOK REVIEW FOR MIDDLE EAST AFFAIRS JOURNAL
Karen Armstrong, Jerusalem. New York: Ballantine Books, 1997. xx + 474 pp. including index. Paperback.
Reviewed by Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad
[Imad-ad-Dean Ahmad is president of the Minaret of Freedom Institute, an Islamic think tank in Bethesda, MD. He is editor and annotator of the recently published Islam and the Discovery of Freedom.]
http://egyptianchronicles.blogspot.com/2006/12/muhammad-prophet-for-our-time-karen.html
http://iqbalkalmati.blogspot.com/2014/12/the-battle-for-god-book-in-urdu-by.html
http://themuslimtimes.info/2014/01/01/karen-armstrongs-lecture-muhammad-a-prophet-for-our-time/
http://www.islamicity.org/6410/muhammad-a-prophet-for-our-time/
@blue. Not even Sheikh Karadawi or the head of Al-Azhar Islamic University represent Muslims. If Karen Armstrong has some recognition in the West and among Western Muslims, this doesn’t mean she’s a heavy weight. In the Arabic-speaking Muslim World, she is unheard of.
Maybe people besides you have heard of her?
No one can represent Muslims completely of course since there is no central authority, such as a pope, and Muslims have a presence in many different counties and areas all over the world.
In any case, she is not ‘nobody’ but well recognized powerful voice, even internationally, and says things of importance, even if primarily to people in the west, and is well worth reading and listening to, especially for people who don’t know much and have swallowed the anti-Islam propaganda.
For some reason, a colonial heritage I guess, many Westerners think that nothing happens in the world without their approval and that it is the West that sets the agenda for the whole world.
I am an Arab, a “Muslim” Arab, and I’m telling you that Karen Armstrong is not heard of in the Muslim/Arab World, but of course, you know better.
I never said she was big in the Arab world, but there’s much more to the world than the Middle East and Arabs.
Now, I’ve not been on TV, nor an advisor to a PBS documentary on Mohamed, nor invited by Islamic Religious Council of Singapore to give the MUIS lecture, nor taught courses at a rabbinical college, nor awarded the $100,000 TED prize, nor awarded honorary doctorate degrees, nor gotten an Award by the Roosevelt Institute, nor a key advisor on Bill Moyers’ popular PBS series on religion, nor addressed the US Congress, nor spoke at the UN’s first ever session on religion, nor am I best selling author or written over two dozen books. Have you? I can easily find a ton of things about Armstrong on the web and virtually nothing about you, who judges her nobody — and seems to have taken a poll of all the Arab Muslims to see who has heard of her despite her not writing in Arabic (likely not too many).
But, then, I am a ‘nobody’, although I hope that doesn’t mean people automatically dismiss anything I say. She is hardly a nobody! And the west is hardly nobody, so what she says makes a huge difference even if no Arabs at all ever heard of her, because the west has lots of money and big bombs which it has been using to destroy the Arab Muslim world, don’t you know.
Anyone who doesn’t motivate Muslim youth to either join ISIS, similar organisations, or refute them , does not count in as far as the context of the essay is concerned. If you are unable to understand this, I cannot help you.
That is an example of “false history” that I deplore. The attempt to use (actually misuse) history to serve a modern viewpoint. The Turks celebrate the conquest of Constantinople for the fall of their age-old rival for the Eastern Roman Empire’s lands. Something along the lines of the Russian May 9th celebrations and the Fall of Berlin. Certainly in an age of religious wars it had a religious element. But the political was far more important. And some of the first things the Sultan did after the takeover was to affirm the Orthodox Church as being in charge of the Empires Christian population. And repopulated the city with many Christians from all over the surrounding provinces. The Turks were at that time very much the enemy of “political Christianity”. And were happy of course to get converts to Islam. But they weren’t interested in attacking Christians,just as Christians. And were happy to cooperate with Christians that accepted their rule. Their treatment of Christians (for the times) was far better than the Christian treatment of Muslims or Jews in that age. Misusing history is the wrong way to score points.
@The Turks celebrate the conquest of Constantinople for the fall of their age-old rival for the Eastern Roman Empire’s lands. Something along the lines of the Russian May 9th celebrations and the Fall of Berlin
This is “false history”. False analogy. The Russian May 9th is the celebration of the liberation of the Motherland from an invader. The 29th of May is the celebration of a successful invasion of a foreign land and of the humiliation of the vanquished.
You can’t really give in to the blatant lie that the Orthodox enforced “cooperation” meant equality of treatment. The Orthodox have always been “Giaour or Gawur (Turkish: gâvur; from Persian: گور gaur), meaning “infidel”, is an offensive term, a slur, historically used in the Ottoman Empire for Christians, such as Orthodox Christians in the Balkans (non-Muslims). Christian ethnic groups in the Ottoman Empire referred to with the term include Greeks, Armenians, Bulgarians, Serbs and Assyrians among others. It was widely used in defters (tax registries) for Orthodox Christians”. Dhimmis, kafirs.
Christians were guaranteed some limited freedoms, but they were never considered equals to Muslims, and their religious practices would have to defer to those of Muslims, in addition to various other legal limitations. Converts to Islam who returned to Orthodoxy were given three chances to return to Islam. If they refused three times, males were put to death as apostates and females were imprisoned for life. Non-Muslims were not allowed to carry weapons or ride horses. Many individual Christians were made martyrs for stating their faith or speaking negatively against Islam. All churches in Constantinople have been transformed in mosques. It is true that the Ottomans have deftly used the Orthodox loathing for the Papacy to isolate the “Rum Millet” from the “West”. When the Orthodox power of Russia came to the fore, persecution of Orthodox and massacres resumed in earnest.
So, your statement that “Their treatment of Christians (for the times) was far better than the Christian treatment of Muslims or Jews in that age” is bunkum.
“So, your statement that “Their treatment of Christians (for the times) was far better than the Christian treatment of Muslims or Jews in that age” is bunkum.”
History isn’t a “one way street” meant to be used to favor one side only. Its a record of what took place. And if it favors one side or the other that is not of any importance.I’ve realized a long time ago that you are an Islamophobe. So whatever I say you won’t agree with it. But none the less,the Muslims treated their religious minorities better in those days than religious minorities were treated in Europe. That isn’t my “opinion”,it is simply a fact. Ask the Muslims and Jews of Christian Spain and Portugal what they would say to your disagreement. True some of them you’d have to ask before they were burned alive at the “Auto de Fe” but still they could, I’m sure give you an “earful” on that subject. Or maybe talk to the thousands of them converted by force. Or the hundreds of thousands exiled from their homeland. So don’t discuss what you don’t know the history of, would be my advise to you.
“On 15 July, the crusaders were able to end the siege by breaking down sections of the walls and entering the city. Over the course of that afternoon, evening and next morning, the crusaders killed almost every inhabitant of Jerusalem. Muslims and Jews alike. Although many Muslims sought shelter atop the Temple Mount inside the Al-Aqsa Mosque, the crusaders spared few lives. According to the anonymous Gesta Francorum, in what some believe to be one of the most valuable contemporary sources of the First Crusade, “…the slaughter was so great that our men waded in blood up to their ankles….”[6] Tancred claimed the Temple quarter for himself and offered protection to some of the Muslims there, but he was unable to prevent their deaths at the hands of his fellow crusaders. According to Fulcher of Chartres: “Indeed, if you had been there you would have seen our feet coloured to our ankles with the blood of the slain. But what more shall I relate? None of them were left alive; neither women nor children were spared.”[7]”
“During the First Crusade and the massacre at Jerusalem, it has been reported that the Crusaders “[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing ‘Christ We Adore Thee!’ with their Crusader crosses held high”.[8] Muslims were indiscriminately killed, and Jews who had taken refuge in their Synagogue were killed when it was burnt down by the Crusaders.”
“The Lucera colony thrived for 75 years until it was sacked in 1300 by Christian forces under the command of Charles II of Naples. The majority of the city’s Muslim inhabitants were slaughtered or – as happened to almost 10,000 of them – sold into slavery,[14] or exiled, with many finding asylum in Albania across the Adriatic Sea.[15] Their abandoned mosques were demolished, and churches were usually built in their place, including the cathedral of S. Maria della Vittoria.[16]”
“During the expansion south of the northern Christian kingdoms, depending on the local capitulations, local Muslims were allowed to remain (Mudéjars) with some restrictions, while some were assimilated into the Christian faith. After the conquest of Granada, all the Spanish Muslims were under Christian rule. The new acquired population spoke Arabic or Mozarabic, and the campaigns to convert them were unsuccessful. Legislation was gradually introduced to remove Islam, culminating with the Muslims being forced to convert to Catholicism by the Spanish Inquisition. They were known as Moriscos and considered New Christians. Further laws were introduced, as on 25 May 1566, stipulating that they ‘had to abandon the use of Arabic, change their costumes, that their doors must remain open every Friday, and other feast days, and that their baths, public and private, to be torn down.'[30] The reason doors were to be left open so as to determine whether they secretly observed any Islamic festivals.[31] King Philip II of Spain ordered the destruction of all public baths on the grounds of them being relics of infidelity, notorious for their use by Muslims performing their purification rites.[32][33] The possession of books or papers in Arabic was near concrete proof of disobedience with severe repercussions.[34] On 1 January 1568, Christian priests were ordered to take all Morisco children between the ages of three and fifteen, and place them in schools, where they should learn Castillian and Christian doctrine.[35] All these laws and measures required force to be implemented, and from much earlier.”
“Between 1609 and 1614 the Moriscos were expelled from Spain.[36] They were to depart ‘under the pain of death and confiscation, without trial or sentence… to take with them no money, bullion, jewels or bills of exchange… just what they could carry.'[37]”
“Justin McCarty estimates that between 1821 and 1922 around five and a half million Muslims were driven out of Europe and five million more were killed or died of disease and starvation while fleeing.[58]”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Muslims
I must confess that I quite perversely made my last statement. I just wanted to ascertain whether you did your home work. You did not disappoint me. You copied almost too well your Crusades and Inquisition lessons. But you should have erased the notes. Unfortunately, they show that the report that the Crusaders “[circled] the screaming, flame-tortured humanity singing ‘Christ We Adore Thee!’ with their Crusader crosses held high” was not taken from any contemporary chronicle but from “a modern-day source” (Rausch, David. Legacy of Hatred: Why Christians Must Not Forget the Holocaust. Baker Pub Group, 1990 (ISBN 0801077583), pg. 27). Don’t trust too much Wikipedia!
As to the rivers of blood flowing down the streets of Jerusalem it was calculated that it would have necessitated 174,400liters of blood, which would correspond to 34,880 people (a bit over the whole population of Jerusalem at the time).
But don’t you worry. Don’t let the truth stand in the way of a good story! That’s the principle of modern journalism.
As for Spain and Portugal, well, of course, I can’t “ask the Muslims and Jews of Christian Spain and Portugal what they would say to my disagreement” (neither can you). My idea was that Spain and Portugal have fought for the Reconquista of their land occupied by the Moors and Jews for seven hundred years. I might be wrong. Muslims were the natives and the Spaniards the invaders!
As to the millions of Muslims “cleansed” by the horrible Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks (notorious “ethnic cleansers” as the Kossovo showed us) you perhaps heard of the massive population exchange that occurred between Greece and Turkey at the end of WWI (after the Greek Genocide of Anatolia). But, again, don’t let the truth stand in a way of a good story (the more when you can blame the “Serbs”).
I see nothing in your comment that shows anything I reported was wrong. In olden days there were exaggerations ,wow,what a surprise. But the point made was “there was a lot of killing”. So the exaggerations doesn’t change that at all. As to making fun of the Muslim victims of the Balkan Wars,that doesn’t change the fact they were victims. Just like with the other Islamophobe ,I’ll give you the same type of answer. Two rights don’t make a right. And there is no such thing in history as “those without sin”. In history sometimes the killers are victims.And sometimes the victims are killers. That is just the way it is.
I don’t recall a single word “Serb” in my comment. So you must be trying to score propaganda points there. But really,I think people reading my past posts know I’m very pro-Serbian so that’s a fail for you with that. But I will say I’m not pro-Serbian because of any anti-Muslim bias. I’m pro-Serbian because I think they were in the right through most of history (not 100%,but no one is).
@I don’t recall a single word “Serb” in my comment
You didn’t, but the article of neo-Ottoman propaganda from Wikipedia you copied and pasted approvingly did.
Interestingly, one of the reporters of “atrocities committed against the Albanians of Macedonia and Kosovo in the wake of the Serb invasion of October 1912” was Leon Trotsky.
You should have been aware, on the other hand, that interpreting the Balkan Wars, the Greek War of Independence, the Russo-Turkish Wars, as “persecution of Muslims”, was committing the same mistake you reproached the “false historians”, using religion for what was political. And the lingering suggestion that the invading Ottomans (and Tatars for that matter) were the natives of the lands they occupied and the natives (Serbs, Bulgarians, Greeks) the invaders (ah, supported by the Russians, who, as it is known committed “atrocities against Muslims” – especially against “civilians”, women and children- like in Syria today!).
I don’t understand what made you such an Islamophobe. But it has no place in the multi-polar World Russia and China are building. Russia intends equality and friendship among the religions in the World. And especially among the millions of loyal Russian Muslims. The mindless Islamophobia must go. I really don’t care who reported seeing crimes done,Trotsky or Winnie the Pooh. He wasn’t the only witness,and yes there were crimes done. One thing I will not do,and that is lie about history. My support of Russia and Serbia isn’t based on them having a “clean” record throughout history. If you base your support on things like that ,you will be sadly disappointed. No country,and I mean no country,is “without sin” in their history. And its time to grow-up and recognize the history of this World isn’t black and white,its mostly gray.
Yes, I see your point when you say that no nation, or religion, or any other very large group of people is “without sin” (in some very, very wide sense). And of course, as any individual has to “live with himself” regardless of crimes committed or not, so does any large group tend to “feel good” about itself.
On the other hand, neither it is true that everything and everybody under the Sun is somehow “equal”. And we are permitted to talk about facts of history, which nation did what to another, which religion was responsible for what crimes, and so on. Things should stand on their own merit.
P.S. I would have only one request for you. Please, do not use the term “Islamophobia”. It derives from the known pejorative invented by the sexual perverts to present their condition as “normal” – while accusing the biologically normal people of having phobia, a psychiatric disease. Indeed, how far could this violence by language go? What if someone accused you of having “Islamo-phobia-phobia”? That would be pretty childish, I dare say. I hope you do agree.
Islamophobia is a current and much used term.As is Russophobia,and we use it all the time. If one is unacceptable ,so is the other. I consider them both to be acceptable.
As to the other point. Of course we are permitted to talk about history. But what we shouldn’t do is present false history as real history. Nor deny true history because it is “inconvenient” to some people. The reasons something might of happened in history are important to understand. But events that told place are just facts,and not open to interpretation to aid a particular viewpoint. The events themselves of course might aid one side or the other. But that is because of what took place. Not because of some “spin” put on it, to make it appear different.
“… If one is unacceptable, so is the other. …” [January 01, 2016 . 12:38 pm UTC]
Quite so indeed. One could not agree more. In fact, neither of these crude coined pejoratives have ever seen the light of day in any scholarly writings, for instance, nor they ever will. And there is no good reason why should the discourse here be debased by use of terms which, at the very least, carry no intelligent information. Swaying someone to one’s “point of view” by sheer verbal intimidation might be effective among street hooligans, not among educated people who desire to clarify issues.
Re “It derives from the known pejorative invented by the sexual perverts to present their condition as “normal” – while accusing the biologically normal people of having phobia, a psychiatric disease. ”
Can you please explain what you are talking about here?
Is this coded language of some kind? What sexual phobias are you talking about?
Katherine
@ Katherine
Check also comment /week-thirteen-of-the-russian-intervention-in-syria-debunking-the-lies/#comment-194430 .
The false “xxx-phobia” pejorative construct was first coined and widely promoted worldwide by sexual perverts as “homophobia”, as you well know.
Most of the points and issues raised by the author are correct. However his statement blaming Muslims for Paris massacres are totally off the mark. Neither Paris, nor 9/11, Madrid, London 7/7, Bombay, Bali or any other major terrorist act was done by Fundamentalist Muslims. Those acts were all false flag ops carried out by well organized and well equipped state agencies, most probably CIA, MOSSAD, MI5, French DGSE, RAW of India or ASIS of Australia or a combination thereof.
The essay, in a nutshell can be put as:
1) Islam is beautiful (2) There has been a severe distortion in the interpretation of Islam (3) Followers of ISIS or any such groups are following the distorted Islam (4) Islam is peaceful.
Frankly, I have not read Quran – or for that matter, any religious books. I can talk only about the practical aspects.
Message of any religion gets distorted thru interpretation over time. It is possible that beautiful message of Quran has also gone thru that.
The present Islamophobia, wherever present, is not about this distortion. It is about how the distorted interpretation affects our life.
The so-called ‘distortion’ as practiced by Daesh/AQ etc. are too dangerous for other non-believers.
Regarding the fact that Daesh is possibly a western controlled group and so Islam is no way responsible – please think again.
Approx. 99% of the fighters are Islam followers. To non-Muslims, these groups are Islamic for all the purpose. Ask any Yazidi. He really cares a hoot
whether these ISIS fighters are following correct or distorted interpretation of Islam is Irrelevant to them.
Regarding following True Islam part – even the life of the prophet shows attack / sex slaves / beheading in ample cases.
So, where do we find believers who are following true Islam ?
Actually, it is the vast majority of good people, who are probably know less about the Quran (or say Bible in Christian context) are the ones who
are upholding the Beautiful version and interpretation of their religion. A good person finds good things in everything he sees whereas a brutal
person will find all the cruelty in his Quran / Bible or whatever book you name it.
And the reaction about this essay will be varied as people will react as per his/her own perception. A good Muslim will defend his religion, a Christian
in USA (less affected by the turmoil in ME) will try to take neutral stance and will try to rebutt any attack on Islam or christianity whereas a Yazidi will
denounce Islam.
Okay, where do I stand ? I believe in God…. that’s about it. And I feel that a good person will reach Godhead by doing good Karma and following any religion. I understand that I am a strong minority here. That’s okay with me. Regarding Islam, I am a bit wary as I am aware how Islamic rulers tried to destroy my country … but could not succeed.
And “why” does it affect our lives. And “how” do we stop it from affecting our lives. The answer to why should be clear. We involved ourselves in their lives. So now they turn that around on us. The answer to how should also be clear. Stop interfering in their lives and they will stop interfering in our lives. They didn’t come at us until we came at them first. We are free to “think” whatever we want about Islam. And Muslims are free to “think” whatever they want about Christianity. But that isn’t the problem. Its our acting on our thoughts,that caused them to act on their thoughts. That is the problem. Really,its not rocket science to figure that out.
@Muslims are free to “think” whatever they want about Christianity.
The trouble is that what they think about Christianity is that they should not “stop interfering in our lives”. Spreading Islam through violent means is not a reaction against “Christians acting on their thoughts” (not “submitting” to the offer to join Islam – an “offer they can’t refuse”). It is a positive command from their Prophet (pbuh, but not on the Kafirs!).
V.2:190) Al-Jihâd (holy fighting) in Allâh’s Cause (with full force of numbers and weaponry) is given the utmost importance in Islâm and is one of its pillars (on which it stands). By Jihâd Islâm is established, Allâh’s Word is made superior, (His Word being Lâ ilaha illallâh which means none has the right to be worshipped but Allâh), and His religion (Islâm) is propagated. By abandoning Jihâd (may Allâh protect us from that) Islâm is destroyed and the Muslims fall into an inferior position; their honour is lost, their lands are stolen, their rule and authority vanish. Jihâd is an obligatory duty in Islâm on every Muslim, and he who tries to escape from this duty, or does not in his innermost heart wish to fulfil this duty, dies with one of the qualities of a hypocrite.
Narrated ‘Abdullâh bin Mas’ûd [radhi-yAllâhu ‘anhu]: I asked Allâh’s Messenger [sal-Allâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam] , “O Allâh’s Messenger! What is the best deed?” He replied, “To offer the Salât (prayers) at their early stated fixed times.” I asked, “What is next in goodness?” He replied, “To be good and dutiful to your parents.” I further asked, “What is next in goodness?” He replied, “To participate in Jihâd in Allâh’s Cause.” I did not ask Allâh’s Messenger [sal-Allâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam] anymore and if I had asked him more, he would have told me more.
[Sahih Al-Bukhâri, 4/2782 (O.P.41)]
According to Islamic texts, waging jihad by fighting is only one way to do it. Another way is to influence the behavior and policies of non-believers (like removals of Christmas trees from “shared public places” as not to offend “other religions”, or some little things like “a local government council prohibited its workers from having knickknacks on their desks representing Winnie the Pooh’s sidekick Piglet” not to offend passing Muslims, or the still actual fatwa sentencing to death Salman Rushdie (who is a British citizen of British-Indian background and dubious Muslim background). Or parading through the streets of Sydney proudly exhibiting posters proudly demanding the beheading of those who “insult” the Prophet!
It would be better for you to stop “acting as an apologist for what is indefensible.
Again,you bring up the ancient past to attack Muslims. But think its wrong if the ancient (and even modern) Christian past is brought up. Really,if you hope to survive in this World you need to stop mindless hatred. Over a billion Muslims exist. And over a billion Christians exist. The only thing the hatred you expound will do is make 2 billion people kill each other until the 5 billion other people making up our World decide they’ve had enough of both of them and ban them both.
The past you say I was bringing is the very text of their Koran, which is invoked by Muslims to kill non-Muslims today.
It is very typical that these undeniable facts are answered obliquely, generally of the kind: “But you do the same”. Most are simply answered by verbal abuse, the kind of “Shut up”, “How do you dare to insult Islam”.
I won’t say “how dare you”. I’d say it was foolish to bring a thousand year old book and try to read into it 21st century happenings. The Christian,Muslim,and Jewish holy books all have passages in them that would “curl your hair” when read. And passages that would land you in prison or on death row if you tried to follow them today.Other than small numbers of fanatics all religious people today recognize that. So the best that can be said to you is “let those without sin cast the first stone”. And to “drop the rock and back away from the Quran WizOz”.
Uncle Bob 1,
There are two ‘why’-s.
1) A distortion in religion happens. No issue with that. Only if the distortion results in violence to others, people react. People reacted to Crusade, Daesh, AQ and other similar things. Otherwise, nobody is bothered.
2) You are emphasising the 2nd why. You tell that “others” got involved in their (Islamists) life and now getting the reaction. Please tell it to the Yazidi, Ahmediya, Bahaí groups etc. Did they create problems for the majority Sunni groups (approx 90% of total Muslims) ? Did the residents of Kafristan did create problem for these Sunni groups, except that they did not want to convert. They ultimately did convert after a genocide in 1890-1905 & the region became Nooriestan.
You are asking that “we”should not interfere in their life. Your suggestion / advice is applicable to most western power groups. But I am an Indian. Did we get involved in their life ? Then why does India figures as Khorasan in daesh map ? There is very less reason for the same, unless you consider that India is considered as ‘Unfinished agenda’ of conversion. Even after some 800 yrs rule, full conversion did not take place. Compare that with any other nation’s history. Egypt got fully converted within 100 years.
No, I won’t copy/paste religious sermons from Quran or any other to support my cause of wariness. Because I have not read them firsthand.
The only way to get out of this problem is – Separate Religion from economic, social and administrative angles. Let religion remains only as a path towards achieving God / Spirituality.
India is a very complicated subject. You ask did you get involved in their lives. Well did you? You answer that. Look at Kashmir? Everyone that studies that region knows it was vastly Muslim. And that under the partition, if the people had been able to choice would haven chosen Pakistan. Now personally,I hate the idea of the partition. I consider that as a Western crime to destroy a United India. The Indian peoples had been united culturally in an “Indian World” if not politically at all times for thousands of years. And the partition destroyed that World. Dividing it into at least 3 parts. But if we accept the partition idea. Then we have to admit the truth of Kashmir.So you tell me,isn’t that interference. If Pakistan had seized all Punjab,not that they could of course,but if they could have. Wouldn’t you consider that interference in Indian affairs. At the time of the partition Muslims had been in “India” for around a thousand years. And almost all of them were native converts to Islam. Making close to 30% of the sub-continents population. They were in most areas of “India”. And among all classes,from rich to poor. The British used the religious divide to keep Indians disunited. They played one against the other. During the “Mutiny” both Muslims and Hindus cooperated against the British Raj. And the British worked for a “divide and conquer” to never let that happen again. As to Afghanistan. One has to look at what was happening in that period to understand their actions. The British were trying little by little to obtain control their. And some Afghans (as today) saw only fanatical actions as a protection against the British. I think your last paragraph says what needs to be throughout the World.Though as long as the West (and Israel) is allowed to sow trouble and chaos it can’t be done: ” The only way to get out of this problem is – Separate Religion from economic, social and administrative angles. Let religion remains only as a path towards achieving God / Spirituality”.
Uncle Bob, I really have to chip in here.
(a) Chakra has to realise that the “map”and all that stuff from Daesh et is just so much puff! The West will bomb and destroy country after country. They will create Daesh thru Saudi and Qatari puppets who, very revealingly, do not fire a single shot against Israel and do all their fighting to bring down secular, independent regimes in the Mideast.The West’s goal is only to retain their stranglehold over Mideast Oil. And the West would be delighted if they can make Indians and others stand in front of the bullets ! The West constantly tries to divert “Islamic” militancy against Russia/China/India, as these are the only countries larger than the US and are potential rivals to the West..
(b) Re. “Kashmir”, the true name is Jammu and Kashmir(J&K). It is a very plural area; Kashmir Valley is Kashmiri Sunni Muslim, Jammu Plains is Hindu, Ladakh is Buddhist, Gilgit/Baltistan under Pak occupation is 75% Shia Muslim, Mirpur area also under Pak occuopation is Sunni Muslim akin to Punjab. You could not have more of a mosaic. Given this diversity, the area should justifiably remain part of a diverse secular country like India. I am an Indian and my family lived in J&K for 4 years.
(c) At the time of independence, partition was a big mess engineered by the Brits and the legal process of the Maharajah’s accession led to J&K joining India. The popular leader, Sheikh Abdullah was pro-India and India would have secured majority support if the plebiscite had been held at that time. Pakistan Movement simply lacked substance and would have collapsed long before 1947, if the Brits had stopped supporting it. In any case, all plebiscites and referenda have a serious defect pointed out by Khan Abdul ghaffar Khan, or Frontier Gandhi who led NorthWest Frontier Province (NWFP) in undivided India. (Now the province of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa in Pakistan). Frontier Gandhi said that these referenda are , unlike elections, not judicially supervised, and malpractices are without a remedy. The Brits , refused to allow the NWFP Assembly to decide on joining India or Pak. Though in Bengal and Punjab it was the assembly members who decided. NWFP (95% Muslim) was ruled by Congress and wud have voted for India. Brits insisted on a referendum and rigged it in favour of Pakistan, just as Frontier Gandhi apprehended. Further, no plebiscite can be supported , if appeals to religion are made by promising a state religion for adherents of one of the religions . That violates equality before law , espoused by Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Even the referendum held in East Timor with a swarm of catholic priests involved cannot be supported. East Timor would much better have remained with Indonesia.Now Australian oil firms are hegemonising East Timor.
(d) Indian leaders surrendered to the Brits and accepted partition. They also betrayed NWFP. However, this happened in the circumstances of the time with the Brits cleverly playing US versus Soviets, and reducing options available to Indian leaders. Indian leaders also thought that Pakistan would return to the fold in course of time.
Thanks to the author for this very interesting article. Worth bookmarking and rereading. Some remarks:
About the term »fatah« … I don’t understand or even read Arabic, but various European languages, so here’s an idea: You’re saying the term means »opening« or »disclosure«. To me, this sounds like a match for ἀποκάλυψις (hel.) / revelatio (lat.) / Offenbarung (ger.), as in John’s Revelation in the New Testament (which is Greek in origin). The Greek and Latin words both mean »unveiling«, the German word means »laying open« … for some reason Luther decided not to translate verbatim as »Entschleierung« but use a more abstract term.
About the »horrific crime against Paris and its people« … Please revisit the evidence presented by the French authorities that such a crime actually took place. It was a choreographed event where probably no one was killed. It is possible French police killed some Muslim patsies in the aftermath, but I and other people who published their observations on the Internet concluded there was no massacre at the Bataclan and the other locations because (a) the video and photo evidence looked utterly and totally fake, (b) the French authorities were completely unable to prevent or predict anything but then knew everything within only three hours (Hollande’s statement: »Nous savons d’où vient cette attaque.«), (c) the hospitals were hermetically sealed off in the aftermath so no one could check and look for the alleged victims, (d) the Anglo/Zionist controlled media in the entire mental occupation zone went into full gear propaganda mode, and more reasons. It is sad to see Truth raped again and again and again, but this is the deceitful and snaky way the Western Powers (F/UK/US) have always operated, and they’ve only expanded their bag of tricks by their alliance with the Zionists. So I’m saying it is wrong to use the Paris Hoax to blame Islam.
Lastly, as stated, I don’t understand Arabic, and don’t understand Islam, and my feeling is it will remain alien to me, and I’m against this massive Muslim immigration into Europe that we’ve seen, or maybe suffered. I’ve heard Middle Eastern Christians admonishing »tolerant« and »liberal« Germans about being more wary of all these organized Muslims because they will never assimilitate or »integrate« and one day they will assert themselves. But … we’ve destroyed their countries. Destroyed Iraq. Destroyed Libya. Destroyed Syria. So it might be that there is a problem in Islam, as you’re saying, an aggressive drive, that is now being exploited by F/UK/US, Israel, KSA, Qatar, and Turkey. But it could never have been exploited the way it is if F/UK/US and their minions had not decided to systematically plunge these peoples into chaos.
To those who claim to be Christians and then hurl abuse to anything and any anyone who remotely looks like Muslims, can by all means do so, but not in His name.
When they even use, or rather abuse, the opportunity of an essay that is pushing for a reform in Islam to be offensive, how do they believe they are making themselves look any better than the religion they are up against? I may ask.
The Christ is not their Lord by their choice as they claim, and even if they did choose Him by default, He is not their property and and they cannot monopolise Him.
He is their Lord whether they like this or not, but they do not own Him, for He destroys their temple over and over again and rebuilds in less than three days of the hours they count, and they don’t even take notice.
Would strongly recommend this book by L Dayal
Truth About Islam
http://amzn.com/8179753255
I hope this will not hurt any one and if so the moderator can take it out
Judaism, Christianity and Islam have the same godhead as the starting point, the base of their religious edifice. It is a God despotic, claiming to be unique and alone in the (his)universe. He is pervert and unforgiving who leads his followers into temptation, powerful temptations he himself created . When the (his) creature succumbs to the luring temptation this god then throws him into eterneal damnation; hell until the end of times. But if you take the culpability on you considering its your fault and not his or as in olden times pay some money then you get another chance to face the same insurmountable temptations. All beings on this Earth who have never heard about this unique god or who worship other Gods are predestined to burn in his hell. Few are those that can reach his heaven. In christian tradition this god thought he had been too merciless and he sent his only son to redeem only his followers from damnation. In Catholicism the followers worships the defeat of their savior who was nailed on a cross. As such they chose the black cross as their symbol The delegates of this god were all dressed in black. a celebration of dead. Wherever the followers of this god went they murdered and raped and sowed dead. I know little about Islam. Mohammed was there the prophet decidedly only males are instruments of that god. But it seems to me that one could easily let all these religions sink into the past. Sure there is or rather was an essence of truth in all these believes at least initially. To go on they would need a serious purification.
There is only one religion which is worse then the above and it is what is called scientism, western science and technology which have brought in just a few hundred years our planet the eve of destruction to the possibility of total collapse. Well we can do nothing about it it is in our genes. Oh Lord, who dwells in the center of our heart, Mother of Love , Supreme compassion, Eternal Friend save us from all these hideous things.
There is another difference, Jesus is the son of god to Christians.. To some he IS god.. To Muslims, Jesus is just another prophet the likes of Moses..
Despite this at times acrimonious debate, I would like to think all who toil in and visit the Vineyard understand One Rule:
‘First, Do No Harm.’
Obey this and you have no need of anymore.
Happy New Year!!
An Open Letter to Young Muslims Everywhere: The Seed of Triumph in Every Adversity
By Ramzy Baroud
December 31, 2015
When I was a little boy, I used to dream of being reborn outside the hardship of the Refugee Camp in Gaza, in some other time and place where there were no soldiers, no military occupation, no concentration camps and no daily grind – where my father fought for our very survival, and my mother toiled to balance out the humiliation of life with her enduring love.
When I grew older, and revisited my childhood fantasies, I came to quite a different conclusion: if I had to, I would do it all over again, I would not alter my past, however trying, in any way. I would embrace every moment, relive every tear, every loss, and cherish every triumph, however small.
When we are young, they often fail to tell us that we should not fear pain and dread hardship; that nothing can be as rewarding to the growth of one’s identity, sense of purpose in life and the liberation of the human spirit than the struggle against injustice. True, one should never internalize servitude or wear victimhood as if a badge; for the mere act of resisting poverty, war and injustice of any kind is the first and most essential criterion to prepare one for a more meaningful existence, and a better life.
I say this because I understand what many of you must be going through. My generation of refugee camp dwellers experienced this in the most violent manifestation you can ever imagine. These are difficult and challenging years for most of humanity, but all the more for you, young Muslims, in particular. Between the racism of American and European politicians and parties, the anti-Muslim sentiment sweeping much of the world, propagated by selfish individuals with sinister agendas, playing on people fears and ignorance, and the violence and counter-violence meted out by groups that refer to themselves as ‘Muslims’, you find yourself trapped, confined in a prison of stereotypes, media hate speech and violence; targeted, labeled and, undeservedly, feared.
Most of you were born into, or grew up in that social and political confinement and remember no particular time in your past when life was relatively normal, when you were not the convenient scapegoat to much of what has gone wrong in the world. In fact, wittingly or otherwise, your characters were shaped by this prejudiced reality, where you subsist between bouts of anger at your mistreatment, and desperate attempts at defending yourself, fending for your family, and standing up for your community, for your culture and for your religion.
Most importantly, you continue to struggle, on a daily basis, to develop a sense of belonging, citizenship in societies where you often find yourself rejected and excluded. They demand your ‘assimilation’, yet push you away whenever you draw nearer. It is seemingly an impossible task, I know.
And, it seems that, no matter what you do, you are yet to make a dent in the unfair misrepresentation of who you are and the noble values for which your religion stands. Their racism seems to be growing, and all the arrows of their hatred persistently point at Islam, despite your passionate attempts to convince them otherwise.
In fact, you hardly understand why Islam is, indeed, part of this discussion in the first place. Islam never invited the US to go to war in the Middle East, to tamper with your civilizations and to torment fellow Muslims in other parts of the globe.
Islam was never consulted when Guantanamo was erected to serve as a gulag outside the norms of human rights and international law.
Islam is hardly a topic of discussion as warring parties, with entirely self-interested political agendas, are fighting over the future of Syria or Iraq or Libya or Yemen or Afghanistan, and so on.
Islam was not the problem when Palestine was overrun by Zionist militias, with the help of the British and, later, the Americans, turning the Holy Land into a battlefield for most of the last century. The repercussions of that act has sealed the region’s fate from relative peace into a repugnant and perpetual war and conflict.
The same logic can be applied to everything else that went awry, and you have often wondered that yourself. Islam did not invent colonialism and imperialism, but inspired Asians, Africans and Arabs to fight this crushing evil. Islam did not usher in the age of mass slavery, although millions of American and European slaves were, themselves, Muslim.
You try to tell them all of this, and you insist that the likes of vicious groups like ISIS are not a product of Islam but a by-product of violence, greed and foreign interventions. But they do not listen, countering with selective verses from your Holy Book that were meant for specific historical contexts and circumstances. You even share such verses from the Quran with all of your social media followers: “…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” (Chapter 5; Verse 32), hoping to elicit some understanding of the sanctity of human life according to your religion, but a fundamental change in attitude is yet to come.
So you despair, at least some of you do. Some of those who live in western countries cease to share with others the fact that they are Muslim, avoiding any discussion that may result in their being ostracized from increasingly intolerant societies. Some of those who live in Muslim majority countries, sadly, counter hate with hate of their own. Either way, they teeter between hate and self-hate, fear and self-pity, imposed apathy, rage and self-loathing. With time, a sense of belonging has been impossible to achieve and, like me when I was younger, perhaps you wonder what it would have been like if you lived in some other time, in some other place.
But, amid all of this, it is vital that we remember that the burdens of life can offer the best lessons in personal and collective growth.
You must understand that there is yet to exist a group of people that was spared the collective trials of history: that did not suffer persecution, racism, seemingly perpetual war, ethnic cleansing and all the evils that Muslims are contending with right now, from Syria to Palestine to Donald Trump’s America. This does not make it ‘okay’ but it is an important reminder that your hardship is not unique among nations. It just so happens that this could be the time for you to learn some of life’s most valuable lessons.
To surmount this hardship, you must first be decidedly clear on who you are; you must take pride in your values; in your identity; you must never cease to fight hate with love, to reach out, to educate, to belong. Because if you don’t, then racism wins, and you lose this unparalleled opportunity at individual and collective growth.
Sometimes I pity those who are born into privilege: although they have access to money and material opportunities, they can rarely appreciate the kind of experiences that only want and suffering can offer. Nothing even comes close to wisdom born out of pain.
And if you ever weaken, try to remember: God “does not burden a soul beyond that it can bear.” (Chapter 2; Verse 286).
Such beautiful wise words. How many hear them I wonder, and incorporate into themselves the wisdom and morality given here. Thanks very much for posting it James. mod. PS
Upon reading the comments, positive ones, negative, and in between, makes it imperative to make a general statement.
Mainstream Islam is not based on proper interpretations of the word of the Koran. It is based on controversial and different versions of Hadith and their interpretations and misinterpretations of the Koran.
The essay makes direct reference to certain key Koranic words that have been given meanings that are different to their etymological meanings. There are also words that can have more than one meaning, but the meanings chosen by the clergy have always been the ones that suit their dogma and agenda.
The reform Islam needs has got to be based on going back to the drawing board.
Ironically, the strongest opposition above to this didn’t come from Muslims, but from fanatics and bigots who think they are Christians. They have an image of Islam and they do not wish to see it addressed in a manner that makes Islam look good because they have a vested interest in the upkeep of the violent image.
To use the commonly held beliefs of mainstream Islam against this essay does not stack up logically, unless backed by irrefutable proof provided by language.
Some will never understand the message inside the essay and some will fight tooth and nail to suppress it. On the side of positive comments however, it is good to see that the essay made sense to some enlightened spirits.
The comments above however cannot be a representation of anything close to a global response. The main response, or the lack of it, has to come from Muslims. They can ignore the call for reform, but this can only mean one of two things: they are either unaware of need for reform or unable to do it. In either case, the existing problems associated with what is seen as violence in Islam will only get worse.
Man…. The ahadith of sahih al-bukhari and sahih muslim are the most incontroversial widely accepted ahadith that exist to reject the ahadith is rejecting the history of islam.
But you know what if you belong to the sect of qur’an only “muslims” say it, no need to hide.
But al qur’an is the “word of allah” right so if you want to promote islam without ahadith and change qur’an you want to change the words of your “god” ultimately want to change your god to your own liking, you can not change a god or his word unless it is fake one.
You see if you leave the ahadith out you reject qur’an and do not obey allah that says obey the messenger of allah, his life his commands are in the ahadith you need ahadith to serve allah properly.
Of course you can twist or rewrite the hadith but that is like lying or rewriting history.
But even if you are able to throw out ahadith and have only qur’an, the qur’an is violent and evil too, you can ofcourse rewrite or twist qur’an but then you deny allah and mohammed both and you have no leg to stand on and every single genuine person can see what you are doing and will reject it soon or later people like al-wahab for example.
Violence and evil is in the qur’an and ahadith you are not able to change it, i even feel sorry for you because you are trying hard to find solution.
It is your responsibillity if you stay muslim, you have the choice of true islam and become like mohammed and isis or you be hypocrite muslim and give legitimacy to their evil violent foundation by accepting islam in a moderate westernised sectarian form that is a hotbed for new radicalism flowing up from the evil source.
Or if you are honest and have the dignity you admit yes islam is evil and violent it is impossible to reform and you leave islam.
You can call me bigot but stating truth and facts is not bigotry, i know that it is truth no matter what you say about me or what i wrote, i studied islam in my spare time for several years, i know what i am talking about, i am not going to force you by the sword, i presented the truth, you have your own conscience, it is your responsibillity, and your choice.
And this was my last comment to you.
Actually, i have a post scriptum for you: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=65O2mAZ8CHQ enjoy!
To be entirely honest, your argument that “the meanings of the Koran’s words and their teachings have been grossly distorted” is not convincing. Distorted by whom? What guarantee could you give that your interpretation is not a distortion other than your own word? Accusing the Christians that they do not “understand” and do not favor your interpretation against the ones held by the Muhaddiths (which is the proper way to appreciate the validity of any tradition) is not a proof that your interpretation is the right one. Same as your claim that “Christ is not Christians property and they cannot monopolise Him”. It is properly an absurdity. If we put it that way: the Koran is not Muslim’s property and they cannot monopolize it? This is one of the fallacies the Muslims invariably fall into: the Koran is the key of interpretation of Christianity (no matter that Mahomet is just six hundred years younger than Jesus!). Christians distorted their own holy books (Injil!) therefore, how could they not distort the words revealed to the ultimate prophet?
How could you expect a reform of Islam if you want to preserve the font of all “wrong interpretations” which is the Koran itself? If any, however vague criticism, of the Koran and of the prophet are met with howlings of “Islamophobia”, “behead those who insult the prophet”, by those who are not “extremists”, even “moderates”?
Islam is exactly what we see. ISIL is Islam. Taliban is Islam. There is no such thing as a good Islam as we can clearly see results of Islam being dominant religion. Wherever and whenever it is dominant nothing good is happening. I do not care about the writer philosophical ramblings because the facts are irrefutable thing. I only pity Europe completely losing it to allow this virus to spread across Europe unopposed.
I understand your frustrations Serge, but in reality, Papacy did the same to Christianity during the Middle Ages. Did it not?
I’m taking at least break from reading and commenting on the blog — I don’t know how long, but there’s so much anti-Islam, anti-gay, anti-free, anti-human stuff, right wing garbage, war-mongering, made up nonsense, and just noise here now I can no longer force myself to read it. It’s been really dumbed down. I could get that stuff anywhere if I wanted to wade through it, but I’m fed up with the stupidity and hatred in the world.
This article itself is basically an anti-Islam screed which just exacerbates the misconceptions of people in the west and does nothing to improve anything, much less bring any awareness to non-English speakers in the Middle East who won’t see it anyway. It’s basically one more ‘Islam is terrible, and the Muslims should straighten up and fix themselves’ ignoring the aggressive politics and wars inflicted on the area, and the US creation and support of Muslim extremism.
I don’t want to read any more of this stuff.
I wonder whether this essay was an indispensable contribution to this blog’s offerings.
The moderator also seems to be getting into the act more than average.
And the tales go round and round, as the commenters chase their tails.
Katherine
I just have to give my two cents here. First, I deal with fools like s.a.top everyday on facebook. He is a closed minded bigot eager to believe that the depraved behavior of an infinitesimally small minority of those who identify as Muslim are representative of the entire religion. This is irrational and illogical and he only applies this standard to Islam and not any other religion or group on the planet. If he were consistent in his application of this ludicrous standard, he would only be ignorant and irrational, but since he only applies this standard to Muslims, he is a bigot as well.
Blue, I want to thank you for basically making the same arguments I would be making if I had joined the discussion sooner.
Noureddin Shami, like Ghassan Kadi, a few days previous, I feel that you place too much blame (and, as a result, too much responsibility) on “Islam”. Yours is certainly a middle-of-the-road nuanced view where you agree that the vast majority of Muslims are peace loving and non-violent however, your caveat is that the vast majority of Muslims have a misperception of true Islam which makes them susceptible to recruitment by the ISIS type groups who essentially share the same misperception of Islam.
Your thesis that the entire Islamic world has a misperception regarding the three pillars of Islam is in my opinion based on many false assumptions which you have stated as fact in your text.
Firstly, you claim that “the truth is that there is no such thing as moderate Islam when, upon examination of these distorted definitions of Fatah, Jihad, and Shahada, it is evident that the twist of interpretation is in the direction of violence and conquest.” Then, you go on to state that the beliefs shared by all Muslims “about Fatah, Jihad and Shahada are identical. This is why Muslim clergy cannot and do not stand up to publically rebuke the IS ideology.”
I’m not sure how one can argue on the one hand that there “is no moderate Islam” which actually to me, seems to be the vast majority 99.999% and on the other claim that the ISIS ideology is not rebuked publicly by Muslim clergy.
Both assertions seem to me to be demonstrably false. ISIS, Al-Queda, and Boko-Haram are all pariahs within the Muslim world. Their atrocities are denounced daily, both far and wide within the Islamic world. The Islamic world is acutely aware of the bad image they are getting in the West because of the well publicized atrocities.
Bigot’s say Islam is the problem and all Muslims are potentially bad.
You don’t seem to be saying anything very different. You agree, Islam is the problem and all Muslims are potentially bad.
Like Blue, and others have argued here, Islam like every other religion is malleable in the minds of its adherents. If you happen to have innocent women and children of your faith incinerated regularly by the greatest military power the world has ever seen, you are more likely to read into your religion a justification to retaliate in kind. This is not rocket science and it is not limited to Islam.
How interesting. When people with a sparkle are shown a tiny glimpse of light, they abandon all else and follow the path in search of the truth. Then you have those that won’t even the midday sun with their eyes open.
When some people realise that the literal meanings of some Kuranic words are not at all as how accepted by mainstream Islam, their eyes widen up and start looking for similar such other words themselves and jump with joy every time they make a new discovery. They then try to reason out themselves why and when those meanings were perverted.
But those with dark spirit will keep asking for proof, and the more proof you provide, the more argumentative and demanding they become. Such is their nature. Little do they understand that what they possess in their little heads is information and not knowledge. As a matter of fact, they don’t even know the difference. They are bent on lurking in darkness, and in darkness they insist to stay. This is their choice.
My essay has touched the minds of many people with sparks in their spirit, and this brings me great joy. As for the dwellers of mental sewers, let them stay there.
Dear Noureddin,
When people with a sparkle are show a tiny glimpse of light…..
This is so true. I am not Muslim but my experiences with the Muslim community have always been very positive and have met exceptional spirits among them. I really like what you have written very much. All deep Spirituality is one
http://www.commondreams.org/author/ramzy-baroud
Ramzy Baroud
Articles by this author
…
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/12/30/open-letter-young-muslims-everywhere-seed-triumph-every-adversity
ublished on
Wednesday, December 30, 2015
by
Common Dreams
An Open Letter to Young Muslims Everywhere: The Seed of Triumph in Every Adversity
by
Ramzy Baroud
[…]
Most importantly, you continue to struggle, on a daily basis, to develop a sense of belonging, citizenship in societies where you often find yourself rejected and excluded. They demand your ‘assimilation’, yet push away whenever you draw nearer. It is seemingly an impossible task, I know.
And, it seems that, no matter what you do, you are yet to make a dent in the unfair misrepresentation of who you are and the noble values for which your religion stands. Their racism seems to be growing, and all the arrows of their hatred persistently point at Islam, despite your passionate attempts to convince them otherwise.
In fact, you hardly understand why Islam is, indeed, part of this discussion in the first place. Islam never invited the US to go to war in the Middle East, to tamper with your civilizations and to torment fellow Muslims in other parts of the globe.
Islam was never consulted when Guantanamo was erected to serve as a gulag outside the norms of human rights and international law.
Islam is hardly a topic of discussion as warring parties, with entirely self-interested political agendas, are fighting over the future of Syria or Iraq or Libya or Yemen or Afghanistan, and so on.
Islam was not the problem when Palestine was overrun by Zionist militias, with the help of the British and, later, the Americans, turning the Holy Land into a battlefield for most of the last century. The repercussions of that act has sealed the region’s fate from relative peace into a repugnant and perpetual war and conflict.
The same logic can be applied to everything else that went awry, and you have often wondered that yourself. Islam did not invent colonialism and imperialism, but inspired Asians, Africans and Arabs to fight this crushing evil. Islam did not usher in the age of mass slavery, although millions of American and European slaves were, themselves, Muslim.
You try to tell them all of this, and you insist that the likes of vicious groups like ISIS are not a product of Islam but a by-product of violence, greed and foreign interventions. But they do not listen, countering with selective verses from your Holy Book that were meant for specific historical contexts and circumstances. You even share such verses from the Quran with all of your social media followers: “…if any one killed a person, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind; and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole of mankind…” (Chapter 5; Verse 32), hoping to elicit some understanding of the sanctity of human life according to your religion, but a fundamental change in attitude is yet to come.
[…]
@ Noureddin Shami:
For what is worth Mr. Shami; I hope we will see more of your articles here in the future. This is a brand new year, the perfect time to try new things, right? :)
I’m tired of the ‘mustn’t diss Muslims/Islam no-matter-what’ crowd, just as much as I am of the anti-Muslim crowd.
The argument between this two polar opposites is going absolutely no-where [Zzzzzzzz – wake me up when they’re done]
It’s time for a new approach, a fresh and different perspective.
And not to patronize; but from what I read so far, I’m sure you’re more than up for the task – and judging by some of the reactions in here – it won’t an easy task, it must be said…
It never is, not for the pioneers, the heralds of new paradigms. It never is indeed, if history is anything to go by…
But, I for one, would like to hear/read more about what you have to say.
-TL2Q
Judging from the reaction of a great number of commenters, the goal of this piece of Islamist Hasbara has been achieved. Namely “turning table”. The root cause of Islamic terrorism is…Christianity! “This period in history is akin to the time of the crusaders of Christianity; replacing Christianity with Islam. In fairness to Islam, the Church that led the crusaders did not reform. It was the Western mind that reformed and in its rejection to the Church has managed to liberate itself from its yoke.”
It is exactly what those commenters rushed to convey: how liberated of the “yoke” of Christian “mental sewers” they are. They saw the light and now they “jump with joy” : how great Islam is in comparison to the stultifying Christian bigotism! Islam is like Quakerism, Hurray! How ready they are to further “liberate” themselves from the yoke of the last “bigoted” Church allied with the KGB! Fortunately, Islam is the “fastest growing religion” and will eventually administer the mortal blow to this KGB outfit known as the Russian Orthodox Church (Erdogan’s Khaliphate and Grey Wolves helping?). And to the bloody Han Chinese who persecute the peaceful knife-wielding Uighurs (sorry, West Turkestaners). So, better to jump on the bandwagon in time! There was a word circulating in the Balkans, under the enlightened and peaceful Ottoman rule: “head bent sword does not cut it”.
“The root cause of Islamic terrorism is…Christianity!”
Actually not Christianity, Islam, not Judaism, but imperialism, banksters, arms industry, oil industry, war mongers, and power-hungry politicians — the usual suspects. Religion has little to do with it except as a tool to be weaponized, and any bunch of fanatics of whatever kind which could do the job might have been mobilized and supported (sometimes some ethnicity, sometimes skin color or race, sometimes political, historical or geographical identification).
@ WizOz:
I donno… I didn’t read the article as bashing Christianity or Christians, perhaps you’re right, what do I know? But if you are right, maybe the question to ask is why some Muslims are so hell-bent on turning Christians/Christianity into their enemy?
Kind of laughable considering that most Christians are at best indifferent of Muslims, and at worst wary and that’s as far as it goes.
In the end, if the Islamists wanna hate on someone [as blue comment said] they should hate on the imperialists, most of which are certainly not Christians, if they follow any religion at all they follow some mish-mash of dark occultism from a collection of old pagan rites (demon possession, demon summoning, human sacrifice, you know… that kind of stuff that is sooo Christian; NOT!). They’re also big on dualism; they might claim they’re Christians (and technically, they’re not lying) but that’s by day, by night they put on their dark robes and get up to pretty disgusting stuff, that’s their true ‘religion.’ In other words; their christendom is a mask for public consumption.
Ultimately, maybe Islamists are not that unlike the ‘exceptional nation’ that needs to invent boogeymen: Soviet menace, war on terror, war on drugs, now Russia again… in order to keep expanding and keep pillaging.
This bogus narrative of X-tian West vs. Islamic East (or vice versa) is hokum, IMHO, but some unseen hand wants it that way for a reason and it has nothing to do with religion nor “values” of any kind.
Even in the past most religious wars were about conquering, raping, pillaging, stealing territory along with its natural and human resources, and had zero to do with the religious crusade/jihad they claimed it was about.
Why are we falling for this tired old nonsense yet again?
Worse still; why some supposedly clued-up political annalists even entertain the idea that this is some clash of cultures (by culture; read mostly religion) *eye-roll*
-TL2Q
@why some Muslims are so hell-bent on turning Christians/Christianity into their enemy?
What made the Muslims go on a rampage around the World to bring the “un-believers” to “submit” (this is the real meaning of Islam) to the dictates of caravan raiders playing the prophets and asking for protection money? What made them relentlessly attack Christians demanding that they “desist” from their “blasphemous” beliefs, under the sanction of death or enslavement? Precisely because Christians were indifferent to the insolent demands of the plunderers masquerading as religious reformers.
Imperialism? Yes, their imperialism.
@Noureddin Shami
I think your article was well thought out and from a subject matter expert.
It is beyond pathetic to see these extreme fanatic westerner atheist fools, christian fundamentalist fools, and other underdeveloped souls with fragile egos lecture you about your own culture, language and religion. It is beyond disgusting. They entirely missed the point of your essay, perhaps their intelligence is too limited or their unchecked/unbridled therefore demonic egos (ID) too overwhelming for them to allow themselves to ‘see’ what you were trying to say.
I showed your article to friends who self identify with with Hindu Nationalism, hoping to see them jump thru hoops trying debunk your points: Guess what? It didn’t happen. They were moved by your essay and courage. They saw your point of view and agreed with it. They expressed sympathy, respect and agreement with the points of your article and it’s objective. I’ve started an email chain thru them with your article to help spread your courageous words.
Contrast that to the fake “progressive” friends of Islam here who are of the hypocrite leftwing atheist persuasion or jaded ex-Christians with a personal axe to grind. These people people exhibit such extreme fanatism, totalitarian tendencies, and duplicity that they would be the psychological twins of Daesh, were it not for the extreme cowardice of the typical Western liberal.
Perhaps it’s an East vs West issue, Saker is Eastern Orthodox and he published you, the so-called Hindu nationalists that are now distributing your essay to their friends and family are eastern too.
I am a little shocked and saddened: I never realized that there was such deep levels of learned ignorance in a supposedly literate and awakened group as your critics here.
Bless you. May you attain truth peace and tranquility in this new year.
Just name calling and smear with no content.
This place has turned into a sewer.
@Anonymous. Thank you indeed.
Mr Shami,
Your efforts will not go in vain. Your conscience is clear, your motives clean and noble. You acted in sense of duty. This important message about the key concepts’ true meanings will slowly make its way around to where it needs to go. Remember it takes one little seed to grow an olive tree and then that tree can exist for at least a thousand years!
Re:
“Wahhabism has been based on reclaiming the former glory. Their misinterpretation of the Koran compels them to believe that there really is a moment when global military conquest will eventuate and that when Muslims hear the “call”, they are compelled to rise up and fight.”
I make no claim to expertise on Islam or the Arabs. I am currently reading “The Arabs,” by Peter Mansfied (1976). This book seems to be well regarded. In discussing the rise of Wahhabism, Mansfield stresses the Arab nationalist element (as a “seed” of later nationalism) and the chafing of Arabs under the yoke of both Europeans/Christians or Turks after the great age of Arab conquest and expansion in the centuries following the Prophet’s life and death. Especially this foreign domination was odious in connection with the religion that had its birthplace on the Arabian peninsula. In chapter 7, “The Seeds of Arab Nationalism,” Mansfield writes (p. 134):
“”The Ottoman Empire, for all its weaknesses and failings, which were only apparent to the tiny minority with enough knowledge of Europe for purposes of comparison, was still the protector and preserver of the Islamic umma.
The only serious challenge to this view from among the Arab peoples before the nineteenth century came from the central Arabian desert in the movement led by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab. He and his followers demanded a return to the pure Islam of its earliest days. He denounced all the later accretions of saint-worship and Sufism as well as the whole structure of Islamic orthodoxy which had been built up over the centuries and which the Ottoman Empire claimed to represent. . . .
“Abd al-Wahhab’s special wrath was directed towards the Ottoman sultan and his government, ‘including the filthy devices of the Frankish infidels.’ . . . Before his death in 1787 Abd al-Wahhab joined forces with Ibn Saud, head of a small tribal dynasty in central Arabia. . . . ”
The rest of the chapter is well worth reading. (Also the preceding chapter, “The West Invades.”)
My point is that islam and power politics were inextricably intertwined in MENA starting very early on. I question whether any solution to the current conflict and violence can be found by an understanding and promulgation of “true Islam.” Militarized Christianity, too, was used for power-political aims throughout its history. The schism within Christianity (Protestant v. Catholic) may have cost as many European lives as teh Crusades cost lives in the ME.
How cynical are the Saudi elites regarding their religion? I have been told by an ESL teacher of privileged Saudi women that they all cavort in Western beach gear at private pools, etc. In other words, the religion is for the unwashed. The House of Saud just wants to hang on to its power.
So, was al-Wahhab already misinterpreting the Koran?
It seems like misinterpretation of the Koran started so early that there is no way to know what it —or what Mohammad—really said. The Koran itself was not “written” by Mohammad. Furthermore, per Mansfield, it is virtually impossible to translate the Arabic Koran properly into Western languages. Are we seeing dueling fundamentalisms within Islam? Whatever “true” Islam looks like, it seems obvious that variious ideas from Islam are being “weaponized” and others are being “peacified.” But in the end, politics—the pursuit of political aims—powered by arms will carry the day
BTW, as one raised as a Quaker, I was struck by the egalitarian nature of Islam (no clergy; each man (and maybe woman) has equal access to God without benefit of sacraments adminstered by clergy, etc.)—features it shares with Quakerism. In this, I thought, lies it universal appeal. I hope that I am right. But war and pretexts for war are also very appealing, especially to those who have been repeatedly invaded, betrayed, and humiliated—by Turks, Christians, and now Jews. Which still leaves open the question as to how many IS fighters actually are even Muslims, not to mention even Arabs. They all get a paycheck. This might be more relevant than the ideas they pretend to be fighting for.
Katherine
I am becoming more alarmed each day I come back to read the comments. I see many giving advice to learn about the issues Mr Shami has discussed and also generally about Islam by recommending Western authors!
Is this not the usual cultural and “colonial” superiority attitude that the rest of the world is tired and exhausted from?
So a highly experienced and competent “insider”, a “native” needs to have Western “experts” validate his unique expertise with the “white man” rubber stamp of endorsement? Imagine this situation in reverse!
Who and where is he, and what has he written besides this? I could find virtually nothing about him with google. What makes you think he is expert? Or an ‘insider’ especially, more than anyone else who was around Muslims — and he is non-Muslim himself (not exactly ‘inside’), and read the Koran only later in life, he says, and has experience with Muslims in a limited area, without, it seems, any extensive education in the subject.
He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but I see no reason to accept the author as having any particular expertise in the subject — no more than, say, someone brought up around right wing evangelicals having expertise in Christianity.
Rajia’s seems to me to be an ad hominum argument.
I.e., the validity of ideas and information is to be assessed according to its source, not its merits.
In Russia, there are scholars of American society and politics, just as, in the USA, there are scholars of Russian society and politics. The views of these experts from outside the system are definitely worth listening to.
The same goes for any group, any belief system, any culture. Both “Insiders” and “outsiders” can make relevant, complementary contributions.
There are also professional historians. Some may be tainted with attitudes of cultural superiority, others not. It behooves the critical reader to try to find intellectually honest sources.
Just because someone is a Muslim, or isn’t but grew up in a predominantly Muslim country, doesn’t make that person an “expert.” It gives him or her a point of view, an important and relevant one, but not the only valid point of view or even information. An argument can also be made that the nuances of different ways of translating the Koran is a straw man in the political conflicts taking place today in the Middle East, Europe, and the world.
Katherine.
Thank you for a very lucid view of three key terms. I would be interested in learning more if you have the time to write more. Are you aware of any sect or clerics in Islam that interpret those 3 terms correctly?
“Blue” that’s a lot of assumptions made about Mr Shami!
He was raised in the heart of Islamic society, brought up as a “secular” Muslim, but still like every one in such an environment was brought up hearing the Quran. Islam is totally imbibed in every aspect of life, culture and in every breath of life. History and everything is taught from that perspective. There is no separation between the life and Islam.
He explains his fresh look at what the Quran really said when he was older but you really think it’s possible in a fundamentalist heartland that he never heard or read Quran before ! Your comment is out of this world! Of course he had to learn it in school and go to Mosque at times etc.
He even explained his very important family connections and what he personally witnessed. But to you these credentials mean nothing which is a shocking indictment on you rather than him. You also you have not the slightest ability to recognize how brave this man is being.
He is about as much an insider as you can get and unlike people like you, he can be punished the most severely as a traitor and you have heard of fatwas no?
I only once before saw any one be so brave and say the things he is saying. Because those who truly and deeply understand Islam can read properly his words and will quietly discuss.
The things he talks about are never mentioned – in fact everything but what he says, because most, even scholars, are unaware or if they know they are fearful.
It seems Mr Shami’s words and kind attempts to engage with some of the readers is wasted on some who display arrogance, ignorance and a type of superiorist attitude.
And please! You really make me laugh when you said you could not google him! That really gave your staggering ignorance away!
Your total ignorance of the enormity of Mr Shami’s message explains where you are at.
And,that is how it always is – some see it immediately and others can not see it in front of them because they have not the pre- requisites for that. And it is fine not to have the pre- requisites but to be ignorant whilst at same time monumentally arrogant, superiorist and dismissive of this brave and “insider” man is actually deeply despicable.
No doubt you’ll continue with your arrogance and superiorist stance for all to see!
Well before the 9/11 WTC event, before I had internet, I was a member of the religious conference on a BBS, which included people of various religions, including Muslims. Two of them were from Egypt and were practicing Muslims, one engaged in the resistance to Mubarak, and later Kefaya, were opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood, and we engaged in extensive discussions over years. These Muslims explained how Islam and Allah were characterized by peace and compassion, and many other aspects. That was typical of other Muslims I had discussions with.
Frankly, I’d rather pay attention to all the practicing Muslims who I’ve talked about Islam than someone who is not — and actually is an unknown person on the internet — could be anyone — unlike Edward Said, Ramzy Baroud, Katherine Armstrong, and even many people who contribute to email lists I’m a member of — many of them Muslims living in Muslim countries. I wasn’t born yesterday, you know.
Now, you can attack me personally, of course, but what the answers? Who is this one guy who has written one article, who can’t be found elsewhere, and why should his opinions be taken over the dozens and hundreds of people who are established scholars and experts, with well known credentials, and even leaders such as Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah who has spoken extensively about Islam?
And who are you to pronounce judgements on all of this?
We are not “pronouncing judgements on all of this”, but on you who seem not to be able to even get correctly the names of all these “authorities”. Can we, therefore, believe you that you really met the people you boast to have met?
My two cents worth:
I think its an intellectual error to trace the savagery of ISIS and affiliate Islamist terror groups to a specific religious source in Islam itself.
1. To do so ignores its sectarian tactics – the overwhelming majority of Middle Eastern recruits come from the Sunni population.
So it is not Islam as a whole that generates support for this savagery. Otherwise, all Muslim variants would have statistically equivalent representation – yet it attracts very few Shias: it actually declares them apostate. (You’re either with up or against us – sound familiar? The author of that statement was definitely not a Muslim.)
2. 1 requires a qualifier: that those Sunni incorporated under the rule of the ‘caliphate’ are given no choice mostly.
The illegal oil trade from which they derive much of their income is serviced by the same Iraqi personnel – engineers – as when the infrastructure was under legitimate state control. But it is not a ‘fundamental’ aspect of Iraqi state policy – far from it.
3 De-contextualizing the rise of ISIS and allied groups from politics, logistics (arms supplying, oil-smuggling) compounds the over-simplification.
The behaviour of these self-declared ‘Muslims’ would not be tolerated in a functional state or society, as it would effectively have to be a police state to effect control over the population. Iran – a Muslim theocracy – shares power with other faiths in its parliament. And it publicly denounces the savagery of ISIS.
So does Lebanon’s Hezbollah, also largely Muslim.
As are the Kurds, the enemies of ISIS too.
ISIS and affiliates have stepped into the power vacuum deliberately orchestrated by the US, France, UK, Turkey, Saudi and Quatar. They were meant to, right down to re-marketing perceived controllable elements as ‘moderate rebels. Not for nothing is there a Sunni-preference for ISIS: a ‘Sunnistan’ along with ‘Kurdistan’ is the aim of NATO. No Shias allowed.
4. A billions Muslims manage to live peacefully both as a society (Iran) and as a part of multi-faith populations all around the world. Only the Saudis exhibit the savagery at state level of ISIS. They are also major funders of the takfiris as well as the Wahaabi ideology that idealizes pre-feudal social and political organization (thoughnot the military and communications technology that enables their rule.)
But Islam itself has a long history of embracing science and discovery (big contributions from Islamic heritage enabled much of what we call Western civilization.) Iran is especially devoted to medicine and science in this tradition.
5. Drugs play a major sole in enabling ISIS’s savagery, especially Captagon. They play a significant role in all kinds of savagery unleashed under stress conditions, .war and conflict. Frankly, Abu Graib’s US torture site was probably mild: what is not being disseminated is far worse. And, unlike Islamic Iran, the medieval practice of torture is US state policy, as it is for Israel and Neo-Ottoman Turkey (the primary variable for the last project is Turkish ethnicity, with Islam only playing the role of convenient ‘glue.’)
7. You say nothing of the disgust engendered by the West’s moral decay in Muslims:
~ legalized and endemic porn (now routinely violent, brutal and depraved, the merely titillating stuff is long gone),
~ an increasingly obvious pdophile agenda (with LGBTQ UN groups thoroughly infiltrated to advance the agenda through ‘sex education’ – a recent AIDs combatinitiative classified high risk male-on-male sexual relations as beginning at ten years old – it did not specify the age of their ‘partners.’ Nor did the initiative advocate an international crackdown on transnational pderasty/pdophillia, but on supplying condoms to the boys. This is a standard tactic by stealth pdophiles – chiefamong them the Anglo -American Establishment.) Vic abolition of the age of consent through the UN is the main aim -get tthem young.
There are numerous other examples, far too many to in into here.
~, legalized prostitution – Germany is now the ‘biggest brothel in Europe – actively promoted through that well known ‘human rights’ flagship Amnesty International. Legalized prostitution requires a state-supplied underclass, usually through welfare-theft by kleptocracies. The same agents acquire the ‘goods’ through the impoverishment and displacement of the regions they arm for conflict — from the uprooted Palestinians, to the Balkans, to the Ukraine.
~ the dramatic desensitization of Wester youth – including those raised Muslim – to media violence.Hollywood (torture porn), games (totally focussed on targeting, no moral dilemma, graphic bloody imagery) andof course the real violent sex pornography of which the US is also the main producer/exporter all provide fertile ground to sow the seeds of toleration violence in general.
~ last, but not least , the political hypocrisy that casts invasion and resource-theft, murder and mayhem in the Middle East as ‘humanitarian intervention.’
8. The colonial – and ongoing – ravaging through support of brutal regimes like Saudi, arming and supplying multiple groups/ideologies (the Muslim Brotherhood, Al-Q (originally imported from Pakistan)) and others for resource control (mainly oil.) Transnationals are playing a far greater role these days, but they have the same actors in the driving seat.
The recent attempt by al-Baghdadi to claim a concern for Palestine’s plight shows that ISIS (or at least ISIS command and control which involves at least two state actors ) understands the reliable value of colonial hostilities (while taking a no- doubt substantial paycheck from the enemy) to rouse the ‘rabble.’
This link to a PressTV article on the subject presents pretty good evidence that ISIS, despite their preference for Sunni recruits, are actually heretics historically excluded from mainstream Islam:
http://www.ascertainthetruth.com/att/index.php/al-islam-a-terrorism/intl-qwar-on-terrorq/1023-is-isil-really-sunni-not-at-all
By the way – haven’t you noticed that Zionist extremists like Shaked espouse the very same ‘extermination/genocide policy as ISIS, only towards Palestinians, and a ready contempt for everyone else, including Christians?
It’s worth noting that Muslim fundamentalists is not synonymous with terrorists, as with fundamentalists of other religions — and that the term ‘fundamentalist’ is not even accurate because it originate from an early 20th century US Christian movement to get back to the ‘fundamentals’ of Christian doctrine. Strictly speaking Muslim fundamentalism would then want to get back to original teachings of Mohamed (PBUH) and the Koran in a more literal sense.
Also note that a major effort by Mohamed (PBUH) was uniting the factions and tribes of the area, and bringing them into concert with the Jews and Christians — the people of the Book — and bringing peace to an area where there was constant warring. This unity was not meant to unify against other people but with them. PBUH mean peace be upon him, not let’s hope he wins and destroys everyone else.
‘Fundamentalism’ — literalism — can be problematic in terms of thought and belief, but it can also be a strong motivation for peace and non-violence if those are taken as fundamental values, which runs through original Islam (except in self defense), and might also mean that no one except the original members of a religion can join to be members — an anti-proselytizing value (or a religion can be neutal regarding new members).
In that sense, then, Islamic fundamentalism is not terrorism or extremism, but returning to the Koran, hadith, and original religion, perhaps in a literal way — or perhaps not since much of it was not to be understood literally in the first place (and that goes for other religions too).
But inject imperialism, greed, gangsterism, and such into this and all good sense and knowledge goes out the window — as the imperialists planned.
Blue ,
” But inject imperialism, greed, gangsterism, and
such into this and all good sense and knowledge
goes out the window — as the imperialists
planned.”
So true.
Agree generally with the rest of your post too, except my belief (rightly or wrongly) that fundamentalism (value-based, historically evolved) and literalism ( non-metaphorical readings of word-meaning, preventing context-transcendent values from being extracted and sustained over time) are diametrically opposed, rather than complimentary.
Literal-mindedness is a function of poor literacy and mental impoverishment. Perfect for indoctrination.
But I get your reading too.
It seems to me that the concordance between fundamentalism and literalism depends on what the nature of the original system was: allegory and abstract, or meant to be taken literally — and this may include material meant to be taken at different levels by different people, and when Jesus explains to the apostles why he speaks in parables and to let those with the ears to understand take the meaning differently.
(a) Let us not go over the top in taking more seriously than it deserves, the wahabi flood unleashed over the world by CIA and others. I would like confirmation, but I have read that at the birth of Wahabi ideology due to Ibn Abdul Wahab’s maunderings in the 18th century, the Wahabis were declared as heretics and the Kadi of Mecca in 1792, banned the entry of Wahabis into Mecca. This was, apparently reinforced by the Ottoman rulers , who throughout the period of their empire banned Wahabis from undertaking Haj pilgrimage. It was the British (Indian Army) Major-General Percy Cox who armed the Ibn Saud family and enabled them to invade Medina and carry out a slaughter in 1926-27. Nevertheless, if the foregoing is correct, the present King’s grandfather was prohibited from Haj pilgrimage and did not fulfil this duty of a Muslim.
(b) The largest Muslim countries in the world are fairly secular. Indonesia, the largest, recognises 4 state religions, Islam, Christianity, Hinduism and Buddhism.
(c) Bangladesh is even more remarkable, with a return to the secular constitutin of 1973 and a determined and successful effort recently to punish those Banladeshi Islamic militants who collaborated with the Pak army in 1971 (before India liberated Bangladesh in December of that year), and committed grave and inhuman crimes. Several were sentenced to death over the last two years and 4 were actually executed.. Most remarkably, the Tribunal set up for the purpose sentenced to death Dilawar Hosein Saeedi for grave crimes including forcible conversion of 20 Hindus to Islam !. That forcible conversion was adjudged as a Crime Against Humanity (CAH). So, a majority Muslim country finds forcible conversion to Islam a CAH ! This is perhaps the first time in world history that forcible conversion has been categorised as a CAH. The Islamic militant lobby in Bangladesh has removed itself to London, and these Bangladesh trials have been pilloried by British lawyers and now by US congressmen alleging that “due process of law was not followed”. Lord Carlile, a Queen’s Counsel in London and a leading lawyer has insisted that forcibly converting 20 people is not by itself a CAH and only if it is repeatedly done, it qualifies as a CAH ! Truth is that due process has been followed meticulously with even provision for appeal which was not there at Nuremberg. (Incidentally, Dilawar Hossein Saeedi appealed and sentence has been reduced to imprisonment until death. He was held guilty not only of forcible conversion but also of several other genocidal crimes.) Just read the verdicts of Justice Sinha who was a member of the Tribunal and is now Chief Justice of Bangladesh. Incidentally, he is a HIndu.
(d) In the light of the Bangladesh judgment on forcible conversion , it is necessary to call a spade a spade and hold the Catholic Church in Latin America as well as the Protestant Churches in North America supremely guilty for forcible conversions on a gigantic planetary scale.
Martyrs have no need for masks. isishq.com
isishq.com. ISIS are more Black Water than anything else. Do you seriously think the U.S would just leave all that equipment behind? The SOLDIERS LEFT but he Private Security Contracting Firms and the CIA never LEFT. The ones without the masks will be killed, the MASKED ONES are NOT BEING TOUCHED.
instead of arguing with ‘s a top’ why don’t some of you look at some of those sites he posted and learn a little, also check this out center for the study of political Islam. http://www.cspipublishing.com/index.html and their videos. I’m not Christian or any organized religion. There is a golden rule that is good to live by but when faced with those who don’t abide by that rule, better to temporarily forget it. it is wiser not to be tolerant with those who are intolerant, don’t give hand outs to those who want to steal, and don’t forgive rapists.
see
http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/14/its-not-about-islam-it-never-was/
http://www.ramzybaroud.net/no-crisis-in-islam-just-apathy-of-so-called-historians/
[…]
To completely ignore the gradual rise of ‘IS’ from the early fundamentalist outlets that flooded Iraq following the US-British invasion, morphing into the fighting force that it has become, is a catastrophic gaffe to anyone who claims to know history.
While sectarianism exists in Muslim societies, as with any other religious groups in other societies, it was the American Governor of Iraq, Paul Bremer, who initiated the current sectarian violence in the region when he launched his campaign of ‘De-Ba’athification’ of Iraq in May 2003. It resulted in the rooting out of every aspect of the Ba’ath Party’s influence in Iraq, the dismantling of the army, and every aspect of state institutions. It entailed the minimizing of any form of Sunni influence in the country, setting the stage for the takeover by Shia groups, including numerous Shia militias that continue to constitute the Iraqi Army.
[…]
Of course, Holland is not alone in promoting the ‘crisis of Islam’ jargon. It was, and remains, at the heart of the discredited neo-conservative thinking. The purpose of such claims is largely to disown any responsibility regarding the mayhem gripping the Middle East, and putting the blame squarely on local actors for their countries’ misfortunates.
[…]
This is far from being a ‘crisis in Islam’, but a political struggle that will, ultimately, define the future of the region for many generations to come.
[…]
I am just coming out of the silence of an in between the years retreat in a monastery and very happy that I almost immediately stumbled on this wonderful, wonderful text. Dear Noureddin Shami, you are very brave and I hope and pray that your view will penetrate into the muslim community and will help many to find back on the true way. The problem of Western Christianity is, that it has its foundation on the same distortion of words as you described for the world of Islam. Let´s take the word sin. The original meaning is: to loose ones way, to get off the way. And since the highest commandment is: “Love thy neighbor as yourself”, we get off the way a thousand times a day. Get off, see it, feel it, repent, get on the right track again. Thousand times a day. But in Western Christianity the meaning of sin is mixed up with the concept of original sin, which was the brainchild of Augustinus, a very useful concept for power and control. But original sin never existed. We are not that baaaaad. Adam was not a perfect being that turned bad and transmitted his bad badness on us. He was arranged for goodness, for perfection, like we are, a little or maybe much more closer to God than we are now. And he lost the way, which is called the Fall. Which created certain conditions for us now. Conditions we have to live by and have to overcome NOW. But we are not inherently evil and depraved by heredity. Thats why we in the Orthodox world do not pray “Father … forgive us our sin …” but “Father …forgive us our sins …“ – plural makes the difference. The Augustinian view of intrinsic human corruption was utilized by the barbarian conquistadores of Western Christianity and produced the gigantic guilt complex of Western society, which is its underlining driving force and the actual perpetrator of its current deprivation. Of course this foulness also touches on the muslim world (drugs, porn, consumerism) especially on its fundamentalist branches. But this should not be confused with their ideology, which builds on a very early distortion of words like Fatah, Jihad and Shahada, and which makes its so difficult for sane muslim teachers to defeat them, and which makes it so easy for them ( the fundamentalists) to prey on the muslim youth.
Deprivation, by the way, is a well known tool, a weapon. Thats why the occupying forces, when they close a Palestinian TV station, start to show porn on it. Thats why Iranians find porn CDs on their doorsteps. A nice gift from the Mossad.
There was also the outstanding comment from Sanjeef. Now we are already three crackpots. Dear Sanjeef, if you were speaking to a Buddhist, what kind of terms you would use? I would very much appreciate an explanation. Thank you. And thank you Noureddin Sami.
IS sounds like a slow version of every other judgement day jew or christian nutter..
Musa Cerantonio, an Australian preacher reported to be one of the Islamic State’s most influential recruiters, believes it is foretold that the caliphate will sack Istanbul before it is beaten back by an army led by the anti-Messiah, whose eventual death— when just a few thousand jihadists remain—will usher in the apocalypse.
Following takfiri doctrine, the Islamic State is committed to purifying the world by killing vast numbers of people. The lack of objective reporting from its territory makes the true extent of the slaughter unknowable, but social-media posts from the region suggest that individual executions happen more or less continually, and mass executions every few weeks. Muslim “apostates” are the most common victims.
Exempted from automatic execution, it appears, are Christians who do not resist their new government. Baghdadi permits them to live, as long as they pay a special tax, known as the jizya, and acknowledge their subjugation. The Koranic authority for this practice is not in dispute.
Many mainstream Muslim organizations have gone so far as to say the Islamic State is, in fact, un-Islamic. It is, of course, reassuring to know that the vast majority of Muslims have zero interest in replacing Hollywood movies with public executions as evening entertainment. But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”
According to Haykel, the ranks of the Islamic State are deeply infused with religious vigor. Koranic quotations are ubiquitous. “Even the foot soldiers spout this stuff constantly,” Haykel said. “They mug for their cameras and repeat their basic doctrines in formulaic fashion, and they do it all the time.” He regards the claim that the Islamic State has distorted the texts of Islam as preposterous, sustainable only through willful ignorance. “People want to absolve Islam,” he said. “It’s this ‘Islam is a religion of peace’ mantra. As if there is such a thing as ‘Islam’! It’s what Muslims do, and how they interpret their texts.” Those texts are shared by all Sunni Muslims, not just the Islamic State. “And these guys have just as much legitimacy as anyone else.”
All Muslims acknowledge that Muhammad’s earliest conquests were not tidy affairs, and that the laws of war passed down in the Koran and in the narrations of the Prophet’s rule were calibrated to fit a turbulent and violent time. In Haykel’s estimation, the fighters of the Islamic State are authentic throwbacks to early Islam and are faithfully reproducing its norms of war. This behavior includes a number of practices that modern Muslims tend to prefer not to acknowledge as integral to their sacred texts. “Slavery, crucifixion, and beheadings are not something that freakish [jihadists] are cherry-picking from the medieval tradition,” Haykel said. Islamic State fighters “are smack in the middle of the medieval tradition and are bringing it wholesale into the present day.”
“ISIS, by contrast, is really reliving the early period.” Early Muslims were surrounded by non-Muslims, and the Islamic State, because of its takfiri tendencies, considers itself to be in the same situation.
“We will conquer your Rome, break your crosses, and enslave your women,” Adnani, the spokesman, promised in one of his periodic valentines to the West. “If we do not reach that time, then our children and grandchildren will reach it, and they will sell your sons as slaves at the slave market.”
John Kerry the “uncircumcised geezer.” cant do a thing about it.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/
…This Graeme Wood argument [in the Atlantic magazine], that he made using Bernard Haykel and a few other people, that what ISIS is practicing is Islam, I think that argument is a very fallacious argument for anybody that knows the Islamic tradition.
CAIRO REVIEW: So ISIS has declared a caliphate.
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: It’s bogus. It doesn’t mean anything.
CAIRO REVIEW: They’ve taken territory.
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: No, no, it’s completely bogus. First of all, the caliphate has to be agreed upon by Muslims and that’s in the most authoritative text, in Al-Bukhari, which all Sunni Muslims accept. In Al-Bukhari, Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, the second caliph, says, “If anyone claims to be caliph, do not accept his caliphate until all the Muslims agree on it.” That’s right in the text. I could declare California as the land of the caliph and I’m the caliph, come and take bay’ah with me. It’s bogus, it doesn’t mean anything.
http://thecairoreview.com/q-a/all-american-sheikh/
Haykel has since distanced himself from Wood’s article.
He says there actually is no inherent doctrine in Islam that justifies ISIS – they are simply cherrypicking directly from the Q’uaran and disregarding the interventing millennia-long development of Islamic law.
I see them (the actual ideologues, considerably fewer in number than the merely opportunistic criminals that comprise the majority) as an Islamic Khmer Rouge, who wanted to return Cambodia to Year Zero.
Christian militants have in the part justified their actions by direct reference to the Old Testament too, but the intervening centuries have made it unacceptable to pursue courses of direct violence.
Now the Christian-turned Zionist (some neo-cons) as well as atheistic materialists (the CIA racketeers, most of the neo-cons, Western corporations) engage in transnational mass murder and theft through covert and political means.
http://thinkprogress.org/world/2015/02/20/3625446/atlantic-left-isis-conversation-bernard-haykel/
CAIRO REVIEW: How would you explain Muslim extremist violence?
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: It can’t be summed up in some short sound byte, unfortunately. It comes from a profound misreading of the Islamic tradition. Revelation is very dangerous. Historically, the Catholics developed a system to ensure that common people did not read the Bible on their own. Protestantism said no, common people should read the Bible on their own. This led to horrible religious wars and the fragmentation of Christianity, which led to the rise of secularism to be an arbiter so that people who were interpreting the Bible on their own were demilitarized. You could have your own church on the corner of the street, but don’t get violent about it. Well, in the Muslim World, this is what has happened. You have people reading primary sources, the Quran and Hadith, without the requisite tools to read those sources, and they are very dangerous without those tools. I’ll give you one example. In the Islamic tradition, the Prophet, may God’s peace and blessings be upon him, prohibited burning people. He said only God can punish with fire. That’s in Sahih Al-Bukhari, which is considered an absolutely sound hadith. In fact, the full hadith says, “Burn this person and that person as a punishment for them burning some other people,” but then he came back and said, “No, don’t do that,” because he was given a revelation not to burn and he said, “I told you to burn, but don’t burn, because only God can punish with fire.” That hadith stands but there are other traditions that say, for instance, that Ali burnt people for apostasy in Palestine. That hadith is also sound. But the narrator of that hadith, whose name is Ikrimah, was in a group that was against Ali. So even though the hadith has soundness, it has a problem. So ISIS takes that hadith and burns this Jordanian [captured air force pilot], claiming that they have an authoritative source to do this. They don’t. It’s just ignorance. And then to top that, there’s no application of lex talionis in war. That’s agreed upon by Muslim scholars. Even their application oflex talionis was not correct because in war there’s no qisaas, there’s no killing people for killing people because war is war; the point is to stop the cycles of violence. It’s a gross ignorance. Look at them, they’re all kids. There’s no old people there who have studied. I mean, I’m almost 60, this tradition takes years to learn. I don’t even feel that I’m qualified or adept and I’ve been studying it seriously for many, many years. Historically, you have what are called shuyukh, which literally means “old men,” like senators, from senatus, which is Latin for old. There’s a reason why you can’t be a senator until you are 30; you’re hoping some wisdom will kick in.
CAIRO REVIEW: Where are the scholars?
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: I’ve been to so many conferences condemning this stuff. The media ignores us. There are books written on this.
…It’s interesting that ISIS has issued fatwas against scholars who have spoken against them publicly. I guess that came from the khutbas against them, which some of us have given. Then I’ve got these rightwing people saying that I’m a stealth jihadist. There have been several books where they’ve put that in there. I think it threatens me personally; I don’t feel like I did before. It’s a serious concern with me. I think a lot of our mosques feel it now. A lot of Muslims feel that their mosques are no longer these safe havens. Which is really sad because, again, America is one of the few places that really was beginning to become an exemplar for a multireligious, multicultural civilization. That’s very sad for me.
CAIRO REVIEW: Why have you spoken out publicly against ISIS?
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: I gave a khutba that went viral, called “The Crisis of ISIS.” It was seen all over the Middle East. It was translated into Arabic. It was tweeted by even some of the heads of state. I guess they didn’t like that too much. I drew blood first.
CAIRO REVIEW: What was your message?
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: That they have nothing to do with Islam.
CAIRO REVIEW: We have ISIS saying that they represent Islam and we have you saying they have nothing to do with Islam.
SHEIKH HAMZA YUSUF: There are insane Christians that say they represent Christianity. Did Rabbi Kahane represent Judaism? Baruch Goldstein, who killed all those people in the masjid: did he represent Judaism? There are a lot of people who claim to represent something. They don’t represent anybody but themselves.
http://thecairoreview.com/q-a/all-american-sheikh/
After listening to the chorus of half-truths, sheer inanities and blatant lies about the subject of Islam, Wahabbis, Takfiris, ISIS, would you be surprised to hear that “one of the most influential European Muslims of the 20th century” (famous “convert to Islam”, confidante of King Abdulaziz the founder of modern Saudi Arabia; accused of suspect “connection with the Bolshevik consulate in Jidda”, double-agent, then intimate friend with the Muslim poet, philosopher and thinker, Muhammad Iqbal, a founder of Pakistan, whom he “helped elucidate the intellectual premises of the future Islamic state” by writing a book laying the foundations of an Islamic State; becoming a high-ranking official in the Pakistani Foreign Office, Minister Plenipotentiary to the United Nations and organizer of the International Islamic Colloquium), Muhammad Asad, was in fact was a Jewish-born Austro-Hungarian journalist, traveler, writer, linguist, thinker, political theorist, diplomat and Islamic scholar, Leopold Weiss ( 2 July 1900 – 20 February 1992), dubbed in a Haaretz article as “Leopold of Arabia”! Life has these kind of ironies.
I would like to congratulate The Saker on his wisdom and vision in publishing this article and recognising its political relevance. This article is not about a religious debate, it is about the political dilemma the Middle East and world faces as a result of serious misunderstandings of key concepts and tenements in Islam which various parties have capitalised on for many decades.
Those books are filled with vile messages, muddled in with niceties, read it! ME and many countries around there are under war strain this is bad and Gadaffi predicted it. but Islam is a mean patriarchal culture. Just try living in one of them as a woman, you’d find out the truth about their behavior patterns.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-01-05/germany-shock-after-monstrous-attacks-rape-1000-men-arab-or-north-african-origin
Interesting points, except the author likely underestimates impact of Western imperialists and their successes at using ISIS as strategic proxies.
Attacks in France attributed to ISIS were, in all likelihood, false flag terrorism.
I think that a sophisticated operation is at work. Radicalize, divide, and rule. Serve multiple goals at once.
1) Militarism + Islamist indoctrination/anti-Islam propaganda. Classic use of controlled opposition and synthesis. Domestic as well as international conflict is good for special interests. Have the “left” refuse to target Islamism for fear of “Islamophobia” (for the Islamist groups are the primary representatives of Muslims in the West) while the “right” targets Islam as a whole. Both lump in Muslims with the Islamists, but in different ways. Major media outlets ply various focused-group constituencies and deliver targeted messaging to reinforce left/right complementary conflict. How the mass media manage the political script, and how their strategy serves special interests, is ignored, even though clear patterns seem evident. It’s very much like sheep herding.
2) The takfir ideology of the Salafi strains is essentially that of the dominion-minded evangelicals, certain Catholic societies (especially politicized ones as in right-wing Latin American dictatorships), and the Zionists, and draws upon secular twentieth-century totalitarian models on the left and right, of which neoconservative influence is an offshoot: infiltrate, dissemble, manipulate, and control. Cf. horseshoe theory of political ideology. Extreme left/right have much in common at their core roots and via cross-fertilization, and since religious language is often used to serve essentially political aims, then much of the aggressively evangelistic or violent “religious” fundamentalism we see is political (or, if not married to self-interest, nihilistic) at heart, not religious.
3) Crisis of values and resources in “modern civilization.” Major societies, especially the U.S. and Europe, consume most of the world’s resources, though China and Russia (and others) are catching up, thanks to globalization as well as competition, including that forced on them by the West. These states must adapt by mirroring Western totalitarian or authoritarian models to compensate for economic, military, geographical, and demographic disadvantages. Of course, the West uses this authoritarian trend as an excuse for further militarism, and soon you have an arms race for political as well as economic control on a global scale. The Western goal is essentially: “Join us on your own or you’ll be forced to. You’re already 97% like us!”
4) Mediocrity of opposition. This is unpleasant for some to hear, but leadership skills matter. There is no high-quality leadership that can tackle the issues at hand. Nominal heads of state exist, but globalization makes them irrelevant. Banks, financial sectors, industries, and other special interests may control “leaders” from the shadows. The world is too interconnected for leaders to be too independent and savvy. Vladimir Putin, let’s not forget, owes his power thanks to the Western-oriented Yeltsin family, and for years cooperated with the West on Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Putin, like Yeltsin, allowed further Western influence into post-Soviet Central Asia and aided the Afghan invasion. Putin lacks the “testicular fortitude” and mental intelligence to unify Russia and its sphere of influence, a task that would require some Stalinist methods, given the nature and ruthlessness of the threat Russia faces.
Refering ISIS and all similar criminal to islam is not enough. Islam is a tool in jewish hands. It has been created by jews to stop christianity. Since war between muslims and christians has never stopped, while jews where financing both sides to kill each other. To understand this it takes patience and effort: read the old testament, deuteronomy, you won’t be able to telle is that insane text is jewish or muslim.