M2A RIP
It is pretty clear that the chances of peace, which were always tiny, are getting worse and worse by the day. I personally never believed that the Minsk-2 Agreement (M2A) would be implemented by the Kiev junta and I am not in the least surprised. The most what the junta could do was to withdraw some (not even most!) of its heavy weapons and then bring news ones in. As for the political steps foreseen by M2A they are simply unthinkable for the junta. In fact, even if Poroshenko decided to comply with M2A and, say, negotiate a future Ukrainian constitution with the representatives of Novorussia, he would probably be overthrown within 24 hours, not only because the Nazi freaks like Iarosh would never accept that but because, more importantly, Uncle Sam would never accept that either.
The key actor: the USA
The single most important actor in the Ukrainian crisis are the USA which has far more influence than the EU or any local political force. And the fact is that the USA have everything to lose from a peaceful outcome of the Ukrainian civil war. Why? Simple!
The US powerbase in the Ukraine is composed of two very different groups: first, the Nazi ultra-nationalist freaks with very strong ties to the Ukie emigrants in Canada and the USA and, second, the corrupt oligarchs. Now here is the key factor here: neither of these two groups are a majority of the Ukrainian people, even if we exclude the Donbass. In fact, even when put together into one “pro-US 5th column” the Nazi freaks and Ukie oligarchs are still not a majority. This crucial fact translates into a very simple but crucial policy imperative: the USA cannot allow anything remotely “democratic” in the Ukraine: it is either “people power” or “US power”, but it will never be both. From that flows a 2nd very simple policy imperative: the US needs to maintain a state of crisis at all costs: war, civil war, industrial or ecological disaster, MH-17, unknown snipers, etc. Peace will sooner or later bring some form of people power which, in turn, will mean that the USA would lose control of the situation.
This is why whether the next crisis results from yet another military defeat or from food shortages and riots, the junta’s “solution” will be the same one: martial law. The Rada, in fact, just passed such a law allowing easy imposition of martial law.
Martial law as a way to save the current regime
The big advantage (for the USA) of the introduction of martial law in the Ukraine is that the two “pillars” of US power in the Ukraine (Nazi freaks and oligarchs) will most obviously the ones to declare and implement martial law, thus their power over the country will remain safely in their hands. Furthermore, martial law will allow the regime to viciously crack down and crush any opposition under minimal or even no legal constraints of any kind. Any person or group protesting or otherwise disagreeing with anything the junta does will be declared “agent of Putin” and dealt with by either imprisonment or simply executed.
The imposition of martial law will also be a financial bonanza for the oligarch which will use it to ruthlessly eliminate any opponents or anybody questioning their practices. But there is more to a martial law option than just short term benefits:
Longer term benefits of martial law: the preparation of a “Croatian” scenario
More and more people are coming to the conclusion that the junta in Kiev is preparing for what is often called a “Croatian” scenario.
[Sidebar – short reminder: at the end of the first phase of the civil war in Croatia, the Croats were unable to defeat the local Serbian population which had lived in areas called “Krajinas” – from the same root as the word “Ukraine” meaning “border region”. The UN then established “UN Protected Areas” or UNPAs in which the local Serbs were supposed to be safe from Croatian attacks. These areas are shown in dark blue on the map. The Croatians then waited a few years, while being trained and armed by the USA, and eventually they attacked on the under the cover of the USAF. The UN forces immediately surrendered and the Krajinas were rapidly overrun resulting in a massive movement of Croatian Serb civilians feeling the Croatian offensive. The “civilized world” stood by and either applauded or said nothing].
The US-Ukie oh-so-subtle plan appears to be very similar to the “Croatian variant”: buy enough time to prepare for a massive attack and then crush the “separatists” is a short but very intense campaign. The big question is – can that work?
An “Operation Storm” in the Donbass?
Externally, the similarities between the two wars are striking: two US-run Nazi states use the cover of a peacekeeping operation to prepare a massive assault against its own population. But there are also crucial differences which one should not underestimate:
The first and most important difference is the difference between the rump-Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) under Milosevic and Russia under Putin. For one thing, Yugoslavia was obviously not a nuclear superpower and Milosevic had to count with the possibility that Serbia and Montenegro could be simply invaded by the USA and NATO. There is exactly zero risk of that happening in Russia. But even more importantly, Milosevic did betray his Bosnian-Serb and Croatian-Serb brothers and impose sanctions on them. In contrast, Putin allowed both “Voentorg” (the delivery of weapons) and “Severnyi Veter” ( or “Northern Wind” – i.e, the sending of volunteers) Novorussia). But this goes way beyond Putin: there is a 90% or so agreement in Russia that there is no way that Russia will allow the Nazis to overrun the Donbass. So if Putin did let that happen, he would be putting himself and his allies in grave danger. In fact, Putin had a very hard time even defending his decision not to send the Russian military into Novorussia last year, most Russians did agree, but it took some very intense PR campaigns and a lot of convincing. The 80%+ support Putin enjoys in Russia is exceptional and strong, but it is not unconditional and while the pro-western “liberal” opposition presents no threat to him, the nationalist opposition is currently rather weak only because Putin is very careful in his policies. But should he “sell out” Novorussia or suddenly turn pro-Western and that rather currently tame nationalist opposition could become very dangerous. In reality, since it is the “patriotic” (but non-nationalistic – big difference!) segment of the population which is the real power base of Putin I don’t see him doing anything to alienate them, especially not by allowing Novorussian to be invaded by the Nazis.
There is also a pragmatic reason why Russian cannot allow the Kiev Nazis to overrun Novorussia: not only would their next attack be inevitably be directed at Crimea (they already promised that numerous times!), but even the combats in Novorussia only would most likely pull the Russian forces in anyway.
The bottom line is this: Russia will never allow an “Operation Storm” in Novorussia.
The second big difference is the terrain and forces involved. The Serbs in the UNPAs had given up their heavy weapons, the terrain was either low mountains or a narrow valleys and, most importantly, they did not have a “safe border” from which they can be supported and resupplied (like the Afghans had with Pakistan during the Soviet occupation). Furthermore, the Novorussians have slowly and painfully struggled to transform their militia of volunteers into a regular army force and while this process has not been easy, to say the last, it appears to have been pretty successful. Keep in mind that even before these reforms, the militas were rather successful in all their operations and that their air defenses had succeeded in imposing a no-fly zone over the Donbass. Their biggest weakness was their limited capability for coordinated attacks and counter-attacks, but that has probably changed now. Not only that, but by all accounts the Novorussians now have large stores of weapons, plenty of armor and more than enough men. As a result, the Novorussians are now probably capable of combined arms operations.
When the US and NATO bombed the Krajina Serbs, they enjoyed air supremacy, they faced no air defenses, the number of targets they had to engage was very limited and the Serbs, having been betrayed by everybody, had no will to fight left. The Ukrainians have lost most of their airforce, the number of potential targets they might want to hit in the Donbass is very large and very well defended.
Last but not least, there are at least two major cities in Novorussia, Donetsk and Lugansk. These cities are large, easy to defend, very well prepared and capable of resisting for a very long time. No such cities existed in the Serbian Krajina.
Back to reality
The similarities between the civil wars in Croatia and the Ukraine are both superficial and deceiving. In purely military terms the conquest of Novorussia by the Kiev junta would be infinitely more difficult than the relatively simple Croatian operation to invade the Krajinas.
As for the famous US aid, let’s remember not only the little good it did to the Georgians, but also all the other US allies who benefited from lavish US aid, huge weapons deliveries, CIA organized death squads, the full propaganda support of the US corporate media and who still were defeated. Even the deployment of US military forces as a solution of last resort rarely proved effective against a popular insurgency.
Do the Ukrainians and the Americans understand that an Krajina-like operation in the Donbass is impossible? The latter probably do, especially the military specialists. As for the Ukrainians, they don’t really care. For them it is all about pretending, keeping a rationale alive to justify their actions, making promises of “defeating the Moskal’s with the help of the USA and NATO”. Whether that actually happens or not is irrelevant for them. What matters is keeping the good times (for them, of course) going for as long as possible. And when the inevitable happens, they will flee like so many other US stooges in the past, from the Shah of Iran to Ferdinand Marcos.
But in the short term we should have no illusions about the immediate future: the junta forces will attack again and even though their next offensive will probably be much more effective than their previous ones, they will be defeated again, either by the Novorussians or by the Russian military.
The Saker
Just to shed some light on present day situation regarding “Operation storm”.
Croatia celebrates the day of this operation as a *national holiday*. In fact this year they are planing two events to mark it. First is festivities in Knin (former capital of Srpska Krajina) and other is a military parade in Zagreb (Croatian capital).
In previous years Croatian band called Thompson was known to preform at these celebrations. Singing about killing and raping Serbs. Many Nazi and Ustasha flags and symbols could be found in crowds that sometimes number ~100 000 people.
It is like if Right Sector in Ukraine together with Azov and Co. would manage to cleanse the Donbass region of Russians and then every year celebrate that date.
Croatian generals that were involved in the operation were just recently made advisers to Croatia’s president. See here:
http://inserbia.info/today/2015/04/croatian-president-to-appoint-ante-gotovina-mladen-markac-as-advisors/
There are countless additional provocations daily but I won’t write about it…
Синиша said of Croatians, “Singing about killing and raping Serbs.”
Well, sure. All I would ever want to do is screw their women and children then blab/boast/wank about it … Wouldn’t all you? Gimmi a break.
I was talking about the ACTUAL texts of the songs that this group is performing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idSFDeUcVKc
And this is just EXTREMELY interesting. This is the first comment:
“Greetings from Ukraine! Your example gives us all hope for a victory!”
Look at others:
“Zig Heil!” and “Za dom spremni!” (all Nazi salutes) crowd is full of Nazi and Ustashe flags and symbols.
And I won’t bother translating their songs for you just to prove my point.
It’s all a part of Washington’s plan –
Croatia has become the latest European nation to propel a confirmed Atlanticist and former resident of the United States into high political office. Conservative politician and former NATO assistant secretary general for public diplomacy Kolinda Grabar-Kitarovic defeated incumbent center-left president Ivo Josipovic by a traditional George Soros-crafted razor-thin vote. In the case of Croatia’s second-round, the vote was 50.54 percent for Grabar-Kitarovic to 49.46 percent for Josipovic. The razor-thin majorities for candidates groomed by Soros’s Eastern and Central European contrivances are normally very close. While giving the public the perception that their vote counted, election engineering allows for only a few votes to tip the balance to the candidate favored by Washington.
Read more here- Croatia Elects Former NATO Official President :http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/15/croatia-elects-former-nato-official-president.html
What sinisa said is a fact.. The same thing happened in a soccer game when one of the Croat players saluted the crowd using Nazi and Ustase salute. No suspension for the Croats but if that had happened in Belgrade the Serbian team would have been banned. . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPE3tv7a_hQ
“For Anica and pitcher of vine
I will set Krajina on fire up to Knin
I will set on fire two – three serbian checkpoints
just so I didn’t came there for nothing”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVUfa3ZTEVA
again, song uses “Za dom spremni” salute
if you don’t know what that means and who that represents, don’t talk about these things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rESRPzuCVGk
just a part:
“we will drive them out with force
and bring a peaceful dream to our homeland
they will run and curse their own mother..” etc
In fact, this all matters little, their songs can be about flowers and birds, it still doesn’t matter.
What matter is that on every performance they are celebrating ustashe and that alone is enough to jail them for good. But the thing is – the EU loves her little Nazi puppet and they will never sanction them because celebrating Nazism….
For people who don’t know this video, I post it once more, a very important watch.
The Nazi Roots of the EU
thanks for posting that link.
very interesting – a different perspective on the EU founding, with
profound consequences for the health and prospects of peoples in Europe and world wide.
Somehow, people should be aware of this, before anything can be done about it.
Another reason for bringing down the EU UNDEMOCRATIC Commissioners, bbefore they bankrupt every living soul.
Синиша
So they dont actually sing about raping Serbs? And the words of songs doesn’t really matter?
I wrote “about killing and raping”. For killing I actually cited the lyrics and translated them. I can’t find a video where he mentioned ‘f****** chetnik whores’. But I remember hearing about that too..
“And the words of songs doesn’t really matter?” Oh, how clever of you for acting this naive….
This is quote of myself:
“In fact, this all matters little, their songs can be about flowers and birds, it still doesn’t matter.
What matter is that on every performance they are celebrating ustashe and that alone is enough to jail them for good.”
This means that singing about burning Serbs and what-not can’t make things any worse as they are always using this salute: “Za dom spremni!”
That alone is worse than any lyrics that can be put in any song. So it matters not if they sing about love and nature or about killing. When glorifying Ustase and Pavelic you are already the worst enemy you can be to me or any other Serb. Adding a junk song to it matters not.
So I hope that with additional clarification you understand. At least you can’t mince my words now…
I am no nazi sympathiser and all these kinds of actions are low and disgraceful. Lets hope that all that kind of nazi-s and far-right nationalists will be condemned from all countries as well as all other ideologies, which claim supremacy of one nation or religion over others.
He’s lying. You can see in this video that which insults them most (Serbs from Krajina).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz9mtehgd0w
At the beginning of the video you’ll see one of their commanders who speak about running (that was in 1993.). He talks about how they will all flee to Serbia and when there was nowhere to go from there, then “all Serbs must fight”.
There is one difference, minđušari were singing during the war, thompson sings and has concerts worldwide, during ‘piece’
Russians have their converts Ukrainienas, we Serbs have our converts Croatians.
Are the Ukrainians really nation, off course not.
Are the Croatians really nation, off course not.
And why Croatians hate Serbs so pathologically. Simple, Serbs are only witness of their conversation, betrayal and treachery..
There is no Ukrainian language, it is just rotten Russian. Is there any Croatian language, off course not, it’s just rotten Serbian language.
We cant have peace with these cowards until we march into the Zagreb and that must and will happen eventually. And we won’t rape any Croatian woman as we never did, because they are waiting for us, as they ever did!
http://youtu.be/sOn4tiRHmoA
Listen to the song. Jasenovac is a concentration camp in Croatia. 700.000 serbs were killed there in WWII. Croatia claims only 30.000 died only . Nevertheless, noone was trialed for genocide. Note that an aleged murder od 7000 muslims in Bosnia was qualified as genocide.
What is interesting is that modern Croatia was the testing ground for the use of nazism in building a new EU state. I am completly convinced that the Ukraine scenario is just a copy paste of the Croatian model. But it wont work because the exact reasons Saker mentioned.
Wikipedia:”Jasenovac i Gradiška Stara” (Jasenovac and Stara Gradiška) is a Croatian song promoting the Ustaše, the World War II fascist Nazi puppet government.[1][better source needed] The lyrics celebrate the World War II persecution of Serbs in Herzegovina.[2]
In 2003, Matija Babić criticized the Croatian band Thompson for performing such a song, and he also criticized Croatian Radiotelevision, Croatia Records and the rest of the media for continuing to cover Thompson as a mainstream artist.[2]
In 2007, Efraim Zuroff, while reporting in the Jerusalem Post on a Thompson performance at Maksimir Stadium, said that Perković gained notoriety for having performed the song which was overtly fascist, and criticized Thompson concerts as an occasion for a display of extremist nationalists.[3]
Perković himself denies writing or even performing the song,[2] stating that “he is a musician, not a politician”.[4] An organizer for a Thompson tour of New York City also defended Perković, saying he did not write the song nor is a copy available on any of his albums.[5]
Tito made the same mistake Stalin did in Ukraine.They were afraid a full campaign of ending fascism in Croatia (and Bosnia) as well as in Ukraine would endanger ethnic peace between the ethnic groups.They didn’t understand that people weren’t fooled by that.They knew who the fascists were that killed them.It would have been far better had Croatia and Ukraine been fully de-nazified at the end of the war.Now we see the suffering in Ukraine caused by that error.If Banderastan is defeated I’m hoping that error will not be made this time.And a full house-cleaning is made of fascists this time around.
“Now we see the suffering in Ukraine caused by that error.”
That is in significant part correct.
” it would have been far better had Croatia and Ukraine been fully de-nazified”
However perhaps some are limited in their perception of what “fully de-nazified” would entail.
Some on this blog are of the view that it is sufficient to kill the opponents, thereby acting within the practices and ideologies of the opponents.
This is a strategy of picking mushrooms but leaving the spores to develop, contributing to phenomena such as “”Now we see the suffering in Ukraine caused by that error.”
To widen perception perhaps investigation of the question, “Whatever happened to Stepan Bandera?” will lead to a greater comprehension of the half-lives of ideas/ideologies and some of their uses.
This is partly why one of the strategies is to facilitate the transcendence from “exceptionalism” to equal and different, and why some cannot “accept” and/or perceived some of the whys of “events”.
What do you mean by de-nazification? Stalin didn’t kill enough Ukrainians?
Or maybe Stalin didn’t kill enough of the right Ukrainians would be more accurate.
“What do you mean by de-nazification? Stalin didn’t kill enough Ukrainians?”
If the question is directed to Anonymous, then thank you for a further illustration of filling in blanks with expectations/prejudgements/prejudices, and perhaps limited comprehension of nuanced points such as “To widen perception perhaps investigation of the question, “Whatever happened to Stepan Bandera?” will lead to a greater comprehension of the half-lives of ideas/ideologies and some of their uses.”
Thank you also for your illustration of extrapolating on limited and/or no data, your positing that the present is a linear projection of the past, and your possible propensity to knee jerk reactions to holograms of your own creation, thereby facilitating the control of others over you.
Russia is not the Soviet Union and there are reasons for this, which you appear not to understand in relation to Mr. Stalin and his regime on data presently available.
My question was directed to Uncle Bob, who seems to have some sort of god complex. If you think that some people must be killed then always start with yourself.
I have a “I recognize historical failures,and don’t to repeat them complex”.Had they hunted down the whole bunch and imprisoned, or when called for executed the criminals at the end of the war. We wouldn’t see them resurgent again.You on the other hand seem to have a “We should forgive and treat nazis with kid gloves complex”.
Isn’t that basically vengeance?
If you violate Principle – ‘thou shalt not kill’ (other than to defend from certain death) on the grounds of Precedent (they have killed/tortured people, so we have the excuse of doing the same) how can claim to be several rungs up the moral ladder?
How is your victory an advance for the better?
Genuine question.
You don’t ‘de-nazify’ states that were affected by killing all that had sympathy for Nazis. You do it by speaking truth about it and exposing the ideology for what it truly is. And by not allowing revision of history (this is most important). So, don’t just stand by while some people are proclaiming Stepan Bandera to he a national hero, for example.
But I have to add that some of the Nazis that were involved in torture and killing deserve the same fate. For example all those high ranking Nazis and Ustashe that ran to Argentina and some other countries should’ve been hunted down.
Bravo Синиша.
“..And by not allowing revision of history (this is most important)…” problem is, who wrote the history? It is not only the victors. Their version is just the one the rest of the world gets to see. But the losers (sometimes victims) have their own version. Therein lies the continuing enmity, the drive to get their version out in the mainstream and acknowledged.
Today in Ukraine they are forcing this version on the public and into the school books. This is turning history on its head, not revision.
Everyone needs to get away from the “more dead bodies = more evil” concept, and look more at how these killings came about. At the processes.
The only way to kill an ideology is to talk it to death.
“So, don’t just stand by while some people are proclaiming Stepan Bandera to he a national hero, for example.”
Strategies are always specific and functions of purpose and opportunity.
In respect of Pamyat the strategy was implemented in one way, and in respect of Stepan Bandera the stategy was implemented in another way, not limited to assasination – neither of which could be defined as standing by.
Killing or resticting perception of ““Whatever happened to Stepan Bandera?” is leaving spores in the ground after collecting mushrooms.
Killing also limits the opportunities for catalysing/encouraging processes of transcendence from “exceptionalism” to equal and different in myriad ways.
You may or may not be aware that the Soviet Union did not execute some Lithuanian auxiliaries/ members of Einsatzgruppen who took part in executions, but gave them on average 25 year sentences in the gulag without remission.
There are never absolutes or omniscience.
@ Kat Kan
What you wrote:
“problem is, who wrote the history? It is not only the victors. Their version is just the one the rest of the world gets to see. But the losers (sometimes victims) have their own version. Therein lies the continuing enmity, the drive to get their version out in the mainstream and acknowledged. ”
This is, sadly, true. And there will always be multiple versions of such events. This can be applied to any conflict, anywhere. In time it becomes even more crooked and the rift is bigger and bigger…
This is even more susceptible to manipulation when there is big politics involved. Just take MH17 – it is not old history, it is very fresh, but already each side has it’s own version. And because the ‘big politics’ it is likely that TRUE version will never surface…
“Everyone needs to get away from the “more dead bodies = more evil” concept, and look more at how these killings came about. At the processes. ”
Also true. This counting of heads is sickening already…. It will soon become: We have
-30.000
-24.680
-5.000
you have
-4.532
-34.987
-1.983
So we win this one…..
@ Anonymous
“In respect of Pamyat the strategy was implemented in one way, and in respect of Stepan Bandera the stategy was implemented in another way, not limited to assasination – neither of which could be defined as standing by.”
* I was referring to Lvov and Kievan hunta glorifying Bandera and restoring him as a national hero. The majority of Ukranians are NOT (neo)Nazis but majority indeed just stood-by as they were putting their version into history books.
“I was referring to Lvov and Kievan hunta glorifying Bandera and restoring him as a national hero. The majority of Ukranians are NOT (neo)Nazis but majority indeed just stood-by as they were putting their version into history books.”
Perhaps your comment is based on limited experience of coups and death squads.
It is generally recognised that in such circumstances the majority stand by, and that is generally a good thing because they often get in the way and become “martyrs”.
A rigorous inquiry into “Whatever happened to Stepan Bandera” would be multi-facetted, and as a detail show that the glorification did not start with the present junta in Kiev. In Lviv, Rivne and Ternopil from the late 1940’s onwards you could obtain history books glorifying Stepan Bandera.
The following may also prove a useful addition to the above :
/ukraine-analysis-for-the-week-of-april-13th-18th-2015-by-the-saker-a-croatian-scenario/comment-page-1/#comment-90895
From the 1950’s onwards you could also obtain history books glorifying Stepan Bandera in USA, Canada, UK, France, Germany, Austria, Sweden and Australia. The various “Ukrainian” clubs in these countries from the 1950’s onwards also respected if not glorified Stepan Bandera and were not completely averse to an “ocassional outing of “Glory to the heroes”.
The standing-by was not limited to the majority, but included various governments following their own agendas. Various governments did not limit their activities to standing by but increased their activities to include such developments as Paperclip, the “repatriation”/demobilisation of the Galician Division to the UK then assisted emigration to the “Commonwealth”.
History is sometimes used as a morality play to afford the unaffected and inactive the opportunity to feel good/superior.
The re-writing of French history in respect of “The Resistance” 1940-44 was merely an example of this. This particular version is now seen to be no longer of political utility and hence can be dispensed with, whilst recognising the utility for energy/focus deflection/dissipation that linear challenges to this history had from 1945 onwards.
In implementation simplistic notions are often prejudicial to continued well-being.
It is very well understood and accepted that the majority of Ukrainians are not neo-Nazis.
This has consistently informed Russian strategic design and implementation.
This is not a philosophical discussion. Clear example: Aloisije Stepinac, the leader of the catholic church in Croatia of WW2, total Nazi who basically was the spiritual leader of theirs, was not persecuted hard after the war. ALL the west was screaming in protest and Vatican was crying crocodile tears in rivers.
Six years in jail and then moved to house arrest. Still, the Vatican again gave him the title of cardinal right then. And Croats later in the 90’s retroactively proclaimed the sentence as illegitimate.
A little excerpt from the Encyclopedia on the Holocaust:
” In the interwar period the Catholic church in Croatia had been a staunch supporter of Croatian nationalism, and it welcomed the establishment of the Croatian state. The Vatican had always supported the stand of the Croatian church and had encouraged Croatian separatism. The Ustaša extermination drive against Serbs, Jews, and Gypsies presented the church with a dilemma.
Many Catholic priests, mainly of the lower rank, took an active part in the murder operations. Generally speaking, the reaction of the Catholic church was a function of military and political developments affecting Croatia; when the standing of the NDH regime was weakening and the war was drawing to an end, protests by the church against Ustaša crimes became more and more outspoken. This was not the case in the earlier stages. A bishops’ conference that met in Zagreb in November 1941 was not even prepared to denounce the forced conversion of Serbs that had taken place in the summer of 1941, let alone condemn the persecution and murder of Serbs and Jews. It was not until the middle of 1943 that Aloysius Stepinac, the archbishop of Zagreb, publicly came out against the murder of Croatian Jews (most of whom had been killed by that time), the Serbs, and other nationalities. The Vatican followed a similar line. In the early stage, the Croatian massacres were explained in Rome as “teething troubles of a new regime” (the expression of Monsignor Domenico Tardini of the Vatican state secretariat). When the course of the war was changing, the leaders of the Catholic church began to criticize the Ustaša, but in mild terms; it was only at the end, when Allied victory was assured, that Vatican spokesmen came out with clear denunciations. In some instances, Croatian clerics did help Jews. Their main effort was to save the lives of the Jewish partners in mixed marriages, and most of these did in fact survive. The church also extended help to the Zagreb Jewish community in providing food, medicines and clothing for Jews in the concentration camps.
[Jewish] Communities. Jewish communities in Croatia were severely restricted in their activities during the Holocaust, mainly because most of them were liquidated at an early stage. Of the three major communities, that of Sarajevo ceased functioning at the beginning of 1942 and the Osijek community by the middle of that year. Only the Zagreb community remained in existence throughout the war.
The Zagreb community was the center of all Jewish activities. It stayed in touch with the Jewish institutions in Hungary (the RELIEF AND RESCUE COMMITTEE OF BUDAPEST), Switzerland, and Turkey; it received financial aid from abroad; and its representatives negotiated with Croatian government officials and others. Until the last deportation to Auschwitz, in May 1943, the community was headed by the Chief Rabbi of Zagreb, Dr. Shalom Freiberger, and the secretary, Aleksa Klein. Thereafter, the few Jews left in the city dealt mainly with the dispatch of food parcels to Jewish prisoners in concentration camps and with extending aid to the needy.
It is estimated that thirty thousand Jews were murdered in Croatia – 80 percent of its Jewish population.”
More info and some “nice” original pictures here for the interested:
http://emperors-clothes.com/croatia/stepinac1.htm
So comparably, it would be like giving Hitler a mild house arrest for several years, had he survived the capitulation.
Now there is a big difference when talking about random criminals or about the very top leaders. The latter are simply not a topic for discussion and must be persecuted, period.
“This is not a philosophical discussion.”
From my perspective it is a broadcast on “political matters” with the purpose of facilitating the lateral process from “exceptionalism” to equal and different in the realm of how to, not in the realm of what if.
Some may not be aware of the history you kindly outline, but I would suggest that some others who have facility to act are not only aware of history limited to one area, but also that strategies are always specific, and best designed/implemented laterally.
You may be drawn to philosophical romanticism and equivalence, however being so may prove of significant strategic drawback.
However strategies are always specific, and best designed/implemented laterally, although it is unlike any actor would broadcast data in corroboration, but likely use any data to inform design/implementation..
Yes, indeed. A lot of the information of this kind can be found on this very well documented site:
http://www.think-israel.org/black.ustasha.html
not just argentina america gave open arms welcome ot the ukrainian fascists and funded them for decades during cold war to try and destailise the ussr, alot of the seed sfor the current coup were planted in the 50s under their guidance, when the jewish holocaust investigators applyed to american congress back in early 2000s to do a third round of holocaust investigations that would of involved there ukrainian stooges they filabustered and blocked it.
at the time i couldnt see why they would annoy israel so much but the maiden coup opened my eyes, they were operational assests still 60 years later
“they were operational assests still 60 years later”
There are few so obedient as those who are significantly compromised.
Your use of “assets” appears to reflect the hopes/perception of the exceptionalists.
In its linear form the question is normally posed as – when do assets become liabilities ?; the concomittant linear “answer” and “action” leading to disappearance in many forms. This is the question and typical “answer” of the exceptionalists.
In its lateral form the question becomes how to transcend the linear paradigm of assets and liabilities.
Many are immersed in linear perception and thereby accept/encourage/underpin the existence of “operational assests still 60 years later”.
“alot of the seed sfor the current coup were planted in the 50s under their guidance”
Some would place this in the 1920’s or 1930’s or 1940’s, but the underlying thesis that causes are lateral, multi-facetted, of long gestation and half-life, is generally correct.
These are contributory factors to why the limitation of historic context/memory/perception, and why the creation and uses of the spectacle of immediacy are deemed by some to be appropriate.
From analysis of response times and volumes of activity over relatively short time spans typically 3-4 days, many on this blog appear to be immersed to some degree in the spectacle of immediacy – when concentration/interest wanes the attention is “focused” on another “newer” blog.
This is also a useful metric to analyse different “societies”.
Orwell lived in Orwell’s time and his “memory hole” was in large part based on censorship – his first wife being a censor for the British government during the second world war, largely reflecting practices and strategies developed between 1914 to 1918.
Co-terminously it was perceived that these strategies were unsatisfactory in achieving the perceived purpose (total war), and additional efforts to achieve this purpose mere made by various means, in aggregate being termed “perception management”.
Amongst other things your comment shows that perception management is not wholly “successful”.
Omniscience does not exist, but some of the reasons why “perception management” is not successful inform lateral strategies, whilst not being broadcast since there is strategic advantage in having opponents pursue linear perceptions/practices in a lateral world.
“From analysis of response times and volumes of activity over relatively short time spans typically 3-4 days, many on this blog appear to be immersed to some degree in the spectacle of immediacy – when concentration/interest wanes the attention is “focused” on another “newer” blog. ”
Well, lately I find it difficult to catch up on the blog ( you know, my job + additional mini job + personal life ), there are many articles, videos, interviews .. I have not read / seen (and perhaps never read for lack of time). If I do not read / see what is said there, I can not make an opinion or get some game, really.
“Orwell lived in Orwell’s time and his “memory hole” was in large part based on censorship – his first wife being a censor for the British government during the second world war, largely reflecting practices and strategies developed between 1914 to 1918”.
Some point to Orwell, rather than an international brigadist, was a British spy. His “1984” book seems a very well thought out project more than a warning…..
Just yesterday I was listening to a radio program, very interesting, entitled “what we lost with the fall of the USSR”. One participant ( seemed very knowledgeable people, including a blogger who to I am assiduous ) pointed to the British Government through the MI6 collaborated with the Nazis in identifying communists individuals in order to “neutralize” them. Actually, there was a fear that communism would spread to India and other parts of the British Empire. It was also noted in this interesting gathering, that former Yugoslavia, like the USSR, was dismantled because it was a truly effective model of society alternative to capitalism.
I think so.
Sometimes I have the impression that the events in The Ukraine, really, are not intended to attack Russia, if it is as you say ready to co-operate, but this is mounted in anticipation of a possible popular insurgency through Europe reactive to the protracted crisis as a warning to the masses.
Today I was also reading an article about how Mao Tse Tung used to study. It said that Mao thought there was to know well the country’s history, its language, its culture and its people to later change it. You think I should spend my spare time to fight for change in my own country?
Sometimes I think I have it a little left.
I feel a little discouraged with some Russian people at this time.
“You think I should spend my spare time to fight for change in my own country?”
Yes largely everyone should, since amongst other things blogs are forms of displacement contibuting to “Sometimes I think I have it a little left.”
It is true that Orwell wrote a list of likely suspects when he was dying that the British and US security used.
It is also true that the “intelligence services” partly funded editions of Animal Farm and 1984.
Orwell was close to POUM and was wounded in the throat fighting with the International Brigade in Spain.
“the USSR, was dismantled because it was a truly effective model of society alternative to capitalism. I think so.”
You are assigning too much agency/control to the opponents thereby re-inforcing the notion of exceptionalism.
This may seem counter-intuitive but the USSR was primarily dismantled by the Soviet people in part because it was a class based society, a variant of the genus commodity production, despite Mr. Brezhnev and others trying to cast spells of “existing Socialism”. My associates missed the rest due to laughter if memory serves.
“Just yesterday I was listening to a radio program”
This is likely an example of the uses of the spectacle of immediacy.
“I feel a little discouraged with some Russian people at this time.”
This is not particularly surprising since you are not alone in relating in some way to a hologram of your own projection.
Amongst other integrations widely followed are looking for good guys in white hats, looking for a “hero” or “exceptional” person to take some “responsibility” on your behalf, holding binary categorical imperatives of “good/evil”, extrapolating on limited or no data, and positing simplistic “solutions” to complex laterally interactive issues.
““what we lost with the fall of the USSR”.
Some people of the former Soviet Union held that view primarily as a consequence of economic policies proposed by Anders Aslund, Mr. Sachs and others in the early 1990’s , but the acceleration of the rate of depletion/half-life of that view has been apparent since 1999 i.e. even after the Russian default of 1998.
For people who were not of the former Soviet Union citing what they lost, the likely response of the Russians would be – why should we keep suffering to please you?
You do not know me, but is not in my nature to want people to suffer on my behalf. Usually, the opposite happens to me, I care greatly and involve myself, sometimes up beyond my strength, in the struggles of other peoples, considering that are also mine.
And I’m not exactly the most who have lost with the fall of the USSR, but also. In the same radio program, they commented that in 2013, a survey conducted in various parts of the Russian Federation resulted in (if I remember correctly) more than 50% believed they had lost much with the fall of the USSR.
The same survey, in The Ukraine, gave, surprisingly to what we see today, roughly the same results.
They also said that in those days, from 5 books that were published worldwide, 3 they did in the USSR. The people, among the things that was missing, said easy and free access to culture. Can you say, that a state that provides culture, health, shelter, work, education to its citizens, is at war with its own people? I do not think, because people who eat well, have good health, is sheltered and has education, is in the best disposition for, if the system does not satisfy them, flip it.
Simply, now we have secured any of this, people get up every day not knowing if tomorrow may hold their family or is going to lose its house and to be left living in the street for not paying thoses abusive mortgages. No one can really say what they think to the risk of also losing its job, and now, if you go to manifest, could end up with a fine equivalent to the value of 5 times your home or end up in jail (which would be a lesser evil here, since many people in Spain do not eat, nor can put the heating).
Yes, definitely, we’ve lost a lot, but who have lost most are the Russians.
Also they commented on the same program that in Russia, after application of “the shock doctrine” in the 90s, life expectancy, only in the early years, plummeted in five years, faster than from result of any famine, natural disaster or epidemic anywhere in the world, obviously including the third world.
This people know, because he lived it.
“This people know, because he lived it.”
Perhaps you should pay more attention to what has been written before and not depend on “experts” to feed you with assertions/hypotheses without invitation to test the hypotheses yourself.
You should also start to understand statistical methods, their inherent weaknesses, and the inadvisability of extrapolations there on.
Even the opponents understand some of that, hence the perceived “need” for and design of big data methods which fortunately subsume similar weaknesses.
It is true that shock doctrine had many adverse effects and several beneficial ones, but despite the best efforts of collectives with the best access to the Russian population and information, no all encompassing definitive views could be derived – in other words no-one knows.
“Can you say, that a state that provides culture, health, shelter, work, education to its citizens, is at war with its own people? I do not think, because people who eat well, have good health, is sheltered and has education, is in the best disposition for, if the system does not satisfy them, flip it.”
You seem to have a naive view of states, their supports and their functions. Perhaps you also subscribe to the opponents sleight of hand that the exceptionalists are job creators?
You are projecting a hologram again on the basis of limited information largely derived from third parties without testable corroborated data which bears little resemblance to many Soviet people’s experience for most of the time the Soviet Union existed.
In some circles this is described as being a pontificating amateur asserting “I do not think”.
“Simply, now we have secured any of this, people get up every day not knowing if tomorrow may hold their family or is going to lose its house and to be left living in the street for not paying thoses abusive mortgages. No one can really say what they think to the risk of also losing its job, and now, if you go to manifest, could end up with a fine equivalent to the value of 5 times your home or end up in jail (which would be a lesser evil here, since many people in Spain do not eat, nor can put the heating).”
With others do something about it instead of dissipating your energy on a blog, but try to understand if you do the “state” will do more than impose “a fine equivalent to the value of 5 times your home or end up in jail (which would be a lesser evil here, since many people in Spain do not eat, nor can put the heating).”
Exceptionalists are not going be transcended without fighting tooth and nail to retain their “exceptionalism”.
“You do not know me, but is not in my nature to want people to suffer on my behalf. Usually, the opposite happens to me, I care greatly and involve myself, sometimes up beyond my strength, in the struggles of other peoples, considering that are also mine.”
When a strategy is non-productive, rigorously analyse it and derive a new strategy.
“Yes, definitely, we’ve lost a lot,”
“the likely response of the Russians would be – why should we keep suffering to please you?”
all i have to say is consider were america would be if it had a total embargo imposed on it by the rest of the world?.
how long would it take for the police to get realy out of hand(compared to their restraint at the moment with all the wealth of the world to buffer their fascism from effecting populace)
communist russia without a embargo blocking acess to 3/4 of the world would have been a much nicer place. it had public schools public health care. just very few resources to share about per capita and a bunch of even poorer countrys asking for help. what happened to all that after the USSR fell and they had access to the other 3/4 of the world again under capitalist philosophy?
how many russians trust america today? 5% 10% ? is it even a statisticly significant number?
people are different and you cant manage all perceptions uniformly.
i have continued my research on the region and the same familys have been responsible for these conflicts for the last 100 years at least and they have made insane profits from it.
this conflict is the same as those before it, started by 10 or 15 people that either thought they could turn a profit in this case or in some previous periods were worryed that stability would threaten their profits/their lives.
this is about the same as any other conflict in the world the majority being distracted while a few run off with everything thats not nailed down.
war is good for big business
99% agree. The only difference, this time Kharkov, Odessa, Mariupol,and last but not list, Dnepropetrovsk will become part of the Republic. Here in Canada elections are soon, government is supporting Ukies, media is blind and all I occasionally do is write on the wall with permanent marker:
” RUSSIA=FREEDOM”.
Can you imagine academic using a marker for that purposes? Unfortunately,western propaganda did brain wash almost all of academia around here, have no any doubts about it. Me? I simply laugh at their inability to accept the fact they have no facts.And I use my marker, the same one i use at the college. Probably this is a clear sign of frustration, stupidity, total irrationality,aging, andropause, you judge it. But i guess” REBEL ONCE, REBEL FOREVER”
Bravo! At least one Canadian sees the stupidity of the Harper government.I can’t believe the Canadians who I considered good intelligent people are fooled so easily.Its really worse than in my country.We are notorious for knowing nothing about World affairs.But Canadians were supposed to be different.
Dear Uncle Bob…but the canadian voting system allows harper to win with only 32% of the votes,,,many canadians are trying to defeat this terrible system…’first past the post wins’….its a terrible voting system.
Harper isn’t all that smart but he is very cunning and sufficient Canadians, who appear either very stupid or masochistic -perhaps both – vote for him even when subjected to contempt.
Before the Liberals and Conservatives were pretty much two sides of the same coin in practice but once the Conservatives merged with the Neocon religious right Old Testament Reform Party the latter took over and imposed their ideology on both the Conservative Party and Canadians. Statesman and diplomats they were not, instead boorish insulting amateurs -but who appealed to the ignorant base.
Not all right-wingers are ignorant but most ignnorant people vote right-wing.
but its television.. I mean we are all alternative media but much of the voting canadian population are seniors and they watch tv….even this delightfully defiant dutch elderly lady who I was friends with in Vanciouver before she died voted Harper…its the tv that’s the disease. how can we change that ? we need RT on tv
Hi Ann. Your comment reminds me of my Dad and dog fearing (god) brother. They watch the news on TV and read the bible. Apparently that’s all you need to know everything. I was happy to see them, but so happy to come back home to Russia.
Harper won because the Liberals had such horrible candidates (Dion and Ignatieff) who ran brutal campaigns. I’m not a fan of Justin Trudeau but if he doesn’t make any mistakes he should win. Harper’s hated in Quebec and Ontario (where 70% of the votes are) and the latest scandal with the Senate isn’t helping. Throw in the low price of oil, petering real estate market and the cratering economy and he doesn’t have much of a chance. Already the rats (his high-profile cabinet members) are abandoning ship.
its not somuch tv as how humans work, lookup “thinking fast and slow”
95-98% of human actions are based on “fast” thinking(sub concious)
a authority figure bypasses your logic center and speaks directly to subconcious, which cant decern fact from fiction it takes it all as fact.
so long as we have experts preists leaders, political partys its impossible for the general public to truely practice free will. hence all the talk of sheeple ect. we are little more then flesh bots and the nightly news is our patch update
cut and past this and send it to all your opposition politician’s send it even to Harperites so they know they aren’t fooling anyone….
NATO organizing death of Russian journalists and
bloggers.
I’m posting this on twitlonger today, instead of my
regular blog, because I’m afraid of what NATO would
do to suppress this information. Essentially, NATO is
organizing the deaths of pro-Russian journalists and
bloggers.
psb4ukr.org is a website used by the Ukraine
government to solicit details on where to find anyone
who holds pro-Russian views, to kill them. A prominent
pro-Russian blogger named Oles Buzina was listed on
that website the 15th of April.
He knew he was going to die. He made a last video
(transcribed in English) which is available here. https://
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56vrtA1gG5o He bravely
talked about how Ukraine used to be, how it was
transformed into something horrible, how journalists
are being killed and that he was next.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=56vrtA1gG5o
Oles Buzina was killed near his home with 4 shots. He
was killed the next day, the 16th of April.
Now here is the sick part. Anyone with a computer can
open up a dos prompt and type this in:
tracert psb4ukr.org
Your computer will then track all the different jumps it
needs to make to get to the psb4ukr.org website. Long
story short, the final hop is this: it is located on IP
address 208.115.243.222.
That IP address is shown as being owned by
psb4ukr.nato.int . This snub website that is being used
to organize the killings of pro-Russian journalists and
bloggers belongs to NATO. The proof is there, it’s
undeniable, anyone can prove it by typing that in the
dos-box on their computer.
It makes me sick to my stomach knowing that NATO is
directly organizing the slaughter of journalists and
bloggers. Hopefully someone will take this story, easily
verify it for themselves and then have it promoted at a
large newspaper to spread the truth. {as reported byJennifer cohagen
That is what I do, and to reporter’s to like Linda McQuaig is who usually progressive and Coucil for Canadian’s-took US to UN over water for people of Detroit…..The mass media may be pretending to be asleep and hoping Canadian’s are but that is not the case.
I am happy to see a canadian who did not get brainwashed by the fascist harper propaganda!
I try to talk to people I know, and some DO NOT UNDERSTAND the game US-EU_canada are playing, others are afraid to talk! Many canadians are not aware that at the UN canada is one of the three states who did not condemn nazi ideology: I plan to leave pamflets reproducing Canada voting at UN.
most people also arnt aware we drop depleted and enriched uranium bombs on a almost weekly basis some points its been daily or hourly in afghanistan and iraq. very few bunker busters use titanium as their warhead casing most use depleted uranium, when is a nuke not a nuke? when its a bunker buster :P unlike old nukes that were know for aerosolising part of the uranium these are actualy designed to achive 100% aerosolisation. fallujah has a higher radiologicaly caused irth defect rate then hiroshima after the war
Some young readers may be unaware of Operation Storm. As in Kosovo later, the job involved the expulsion of minorities. 200,000 Serbs fled, many old folks who stayed behind on their farms were killed.
Saker’s spelling corrector changed the word “fleeing” into “feeling”. Thankfully, President Clinton did not feel any pain at all, this time.
“Thrilled with Operation Flash, President Clinton gave
the go ahead for Operation Storm
By Ivo Pukanic, Nacional (Zagreb) May 24, 2005
The United States was actively involved in the preparation, monitoring and initiation of Operation Storm: the green light from President Clinton was passed on by the US military attache in Zagreb, and the operations were transmitted in real time to the Pentagon”
thanks Matt…sickening…Clinton is such a fake ken-doll…he reminds me of Stephen Harper….Ken-doll. Do you know what I mean by that ? Barbie Doll’s boyfriend Ken….
This attack was prepared well in advance. It was associated with Srebrenica. Srebrenica fell several days before the Croatian attacked Krajina. The Western media had a field day with how the Dutch let the Serbs in and then of course the half truth about what took place in Srebrenica.. The Media played the Srebrenica genocide to silence any protest from the west about the thousands of Serbs fleeing their homes, US planes strafing columns of men and women, any elderly left behind were killed in their homes The whole region was looted. Srebrenica was used to silence criticism of what was taking place in Krajina. It was like Serbs had it coming ;look what they are doing in Srebrenica..NATO let Mladic take Srebrenica to cover the US and Croat crimes in Krajina. Read “Medak Pocket” By Carol Off…
Same thing happened in Rwanda. US Backed Tutsi were the real killers. Some 15 thousand were let in by the Canadian general Dallair who sent a false fax to UN authorities (he knew it) which led to Hutu people being slaughtered by the Tutsi. Who cares about it now that US got their army for the next slaughter in the Congo—6 million and counting Read “Politics of Genocide” both Srebrenica and Rwanda are discussed in detail Authors Herman and Peterson. . . .
A detail that needs correction–US planes did not strafe the refugee column in Krajina, that was artillery.
On the other hand, in Kosovo, the boys in bue did hit a column of Albanians fleeing their village on carts, pulled by tractors.
I don’t know about artillery but there was one aircraft from the “Glorious” airforce of the state of Croatia that strafed the refugee column.
Actually, you have failed to mention “Operation Flash” (“Opreacija Bljesak”) attack on Sector West (in the map – aka SAO Zapadna Krajina, Western Krajina) from 1–3 May 1995. – few months BEFORE Srebrenica. It was also attack on UN Protected Area, UN forces also did nothing.
Also, there is another fact that has been forgotten – all heavy guns and tanks that Serbs had were given to UN forces for safekeeping. So, they could not defend themselves. Croats never gave away their heavy weapons, which they used in attack mentioned.
Hi Saker, great post….by the way, I don’t really understand why, if the nazi freaks and the oligarchs are a minority…then how can they impose martial law…unless there are alot of ukies that are working for them…against their own people
And it appears to me that the other thing that will happen to the Putin agents is torture. How horrible.
Hi Ann. You’re saying it’s a great post. I don’t think it is.
As to your question, there’s three important groups Saker has forgotten to include in what constitutes the US powerbase.
The first one is the Ukrainian Armed Forces, who have so far not opposed the occupation force, but have nicely worked along with it. Keep in mind that it’s *not* the purported “Nazi freaks” who did the shelling of Donbass residential areas, but units of the regular UAF, on order from above, of course, as in any military.
The second one is common people, passive, venal, not nationalists, just opportunists, who seem to have bought into the EU promises scam. I may well have missed it, but has there ever been a peace demonstration in Kiev demanding to stop the assault on fellow citizens in Donbass? Surely people in Kiev do know pretty well that there is a war against a part of their country, and that common residential areas are shelled?
And the third one is the foreign occupation forces, the Polish mercenaries, etc.
The problem is larger than just some oligarchs (how many, by the way? five? ten? a dozen?) and a few thousand so-called “nazi freaks”, who wouldn’t have accomplished much on their own.
theres een demonstrations of a sort but they have been pretty harsh they have even been harasing soldiers mothers groups that ask tomany questions or want to hold wrong type of vigils. i follow a numer of ppl on Fb from region so yeah there is resistance inside kiev but blogers and whistleblowers also get beaten up arested and disapeared regualy also. and yes theres alot of merc there academy has been hanging about since before the referendum.
ut how do 168 people manage to own 64% of the worlds total wealth without us stoping them? very few people are willing to be at the frount and those that are we have a massive gloaly reaching security aparatus to lock them up and a tiny amount of people controling the majority of the media, ukraine is a microcosim of us a shadow play in minature except the east has shown a lot more fiber then you could expect from a english country. imagine if texans actualy walked their talk like the people of donbass
I have lived in Canada for over 40 years and remember meeting a lot of Ukrainians -many born In Canada of Ukrainian immigrants when I first moved to Canada. Other than a lot of jokes about them which they graciously laughed along with, there didn’t seem anything to differentiate from anyone else except for their surnames. Unfortunately, as I only realise now, most had Western Ukraine provenance – especially Kiev.
That said, I never saw any fascist or Bandera worship or any ideology that was radical or disturbing. I find it very distressing to imagine these people that represent 10-12% of the Canadian population will suddenly support neo-Fascism and vote the despicable Harper in for more terms and yet another majority. The ideologue Harper has many faults but knowing how to divide and conquer, slime and slease, are not among them. He loves power and doing Netanyahu’s bidding and he has expert control over a dumbed-down servile electorate with help from the likes of Karl Rove et al and the sycophantic MSM.
What can be done?
“What can be done?”
He and his associates wish to operate linearly in a lateral world.
However such practice always leads to “unexpected consequences” and there will be attempts to “sell” them thus to deflect any lateral systemic challenge.
In the meantime don’t engage in elections, always tell the opposite of your views to pollsters, don’t take/have “credit” – a curious notion since the debit is that you become an asset (under the control ) of your creditor, and start to build alternative expectations and networks to facilitate alternative ways of living on the bases of co-operation and sharing.
As to your experience of Ukrainians, it may be informed by the experiences of others.
Even in 1992 in places such as Lviv, Rivne, and Ternopil there were regular parades of Ukrainian devotees of Stepan Bandera, OUP, Galician Division and other similar organisations.
In the same time period there were regular parades of those of a similar ilk remembering Latvian “heroes” in Riga by the war statue in the park – can’t remember the address – but the 2014 version of this parade is available on YouTube.
There were even limited parades in Moscow, St. Petersburg and elsewhere in Russia courtesy of Pamyat in the early 1990’s.
A little more on Sector East/Croatian Scenario .. specifics as related to the Scenario vis-a-vis Ilok-Vukovar-Borovo.
Kiev, like Washington, lives by Randolph Bourne’s old quip: “War is the health of the state.”
There is a lot of talk about WW2 in the “Yugoslav” lands. I think it would be good to understand the background and facts of the time. That period led directly to the wars of the 1990’s and to the situation of today in those lands. After losing around a million people in WW1 most of them Serb civilians. Serbia (and Montenegro) were part of the victors of the war. Along with Serb ethnic territories gained in the war.
The new country created there,later to be called Yugoslavia included Croat,Bosnian,and Slovene lands. Brother Slavs in the case of the Croats and Bosnians,and cousin Slavs in the case of the Slovenes. Divided in the case of the Croats and Bosniaks from the Serbs by religion. And in the case of the Slovenes by language and religion.
This wasn’t a case of the Serbs seizing lands that would have been independent otherwise. There was no thought among the allies of making Croatia or Slovenia,let alone Bosnia independent states. Had they not joined with Serbia Slovenia would have been split totally between Italy and Austria. And Croatia split between Italy,Serbia,with the rump staying with Hungary. While Bosnia was slated to join Serbia totally. To save themselves from that it was those regions politicians themselves that pushed to join Serbia in a new state. There were many in Serbia that objected to joining with them. And thought they should just annex all the Serb areas and forget the rest. But the Serb government thought by including all those areas they would be stronger and more protected from potential enemies in the future ie Italy or Germany. And they thought “we are all south Slavs,what could go wrong”.
Right from the beginning problems arose. Serbia had suffered the most from the war. And was saving those other areas from foreign control. So they thought as the largest group they should control the nation. The others resented that,and looked down on Serbs as not being “Western” and Catholic like they were. Many of the old elite from those regions had been very loyal to the Austro-Hungarian regime and the Catholic clergy had looked to the old regime as their patrons. Both of those groups never came to terms with a new Serbian Orthodox monarchy ruling them. Neither side was happy over the union.
Fascist Italy helped found, and later nazi Germany helped grow and fund an anti-Serbian fascist party in Croatia called Ustase. It was the Croatian version on steroids of the Bandera in Ukraine. In 1934 they murdered the Serb King of Yugoslavia on a visit to France. And though being an underground movement it grew it numbers. When Germany attacked Yugoslavia and conquered it they divided up the lands. They created a Greater Croatia out of most of Croatia and Bosnia. They split Slovenia between themselves and Italy. Gave Italy the coast, “Dalmatia”, and Montenegro. Gave Albania Kosovo, Bulgaria Macedonia,and split Voivodina between themselves and Hungary.
From the very start the Ustase Croats and some Bosniak Ustase clones went on a murder spree against Serbs (and Jews as well,probably to please the Germans). The Ustase motto was to convert one third of Serbs,to drive out one third,and to kill one third. They slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Serbs,men,women,children,it made no difference to them. Their evil was so great the Italians started taking in Serb refugee’s to protect them. And even the German SS was horrified. Just how bad a murderer must you be to horrify the SS,think about that for a minute.
Hitler hated the Serbs with a passion. He considered them as bad or worse than Russians. And responsible for the destruction of Austria-Hungary during WW1. So he showed Serbs no mercy. The rump of Serbia was put under strict military control and all resistance was answered by mass shooting of civilians in reprisal. Many thousands were shot in those massacres.
Before talking about the resistance I want to say something about the Catholic Church and the Ustase. The Ustase like the Bandera movement in Western Ukraine of that period was heavily involved with the Catholic Church. The Ustase considered themselves “God’s warriors” for the Catholic Church against the Orthodox Serbs. A great many Ustase were church laymen and also many were even priests and monks. Some of the worse kill gangs of Ustase had monks or priests as commanders. As far as I know the Vatican didn’t officially encourage these killings to be done. But at the same time they didn’t denounce them either. And there is no possibility that they didn’t hear of them. There has for centuries been a great deal of mutual hatred between the Catholic and Orthodox Churches in those areas and it was all let overflow during that period. That is the root of much of the distrust by Orthodox of Catholics today.
Now we come to the resistance movements that Yugoslavia is famous for during the war. This is a very complicated story. And one with many “good,bad,and in-between elements to them”. I see a lot of misunderstandings on the “Chetniks” being posted. In all civil wars,you have few pure groups fighting in those wars. And the Chetniks and Partisans are no exception to that.
The Chetnik idea goes back to the guerrilla wars against the Ottoman Turks in past centuries. And to guerrilla fighters against the German and Austro-Hungarians in WW1. As soon as Yugoslavia was conquered and the reign of terror descended on the Serbs Chetnik bands started to form and fight.
You have to divide them in to two groups. Those in Serbia,and those outside. There are almost no Croats and Bosniaks in Serbia proper. So the Chetniks there fought against the Germans,traitor Serbs,Albanian fascists,Italians,Bulgarians,and later the Partisans. Those outside of Serbia made up of Serbs from Bosnia and Croatia fought Ustase,Bosniak Ustase allies,Italians,Germans,and later Partisans.
The Partisans,the more famous of the resistance was a multi-ethnic group. Made up of Serbs (including Montenegrin),Croats,Slovenes,Bosniaks. There leader Josip “Tito” Broz ,was a half Croat and half Slovene communist who had a Spanish Civil War background. Unlike the purely Serbian Chetniks the Partisans were able to rally fighters from all the Yugoslav ethnic groups behind them. That made them much more powerful a movement as time went on. The Chetniks started the fighting against the occupiers first. Attacking German and Italians whenever they could.
But for every attack the occupiers massacred hundreds or even thousands of Serb civilians in reprisal. Because of that they stopped open attacks in Serbia proper and concentrated on building an underground and gathering weapons for when the hoped for allied liberating armies arrived. The Chetniks outside Serbia kept fighting against the Ustase and Bosniak killers of Serb civilians. Their main desire was to protect ethnic Serbs from attacks.
And they also carried out reprisal massacres of Croat and Bosniak civilians. That is first where the bad name they acquired comes from. The Partisan movement was only started by the communists after the nazi attack on the USSR in June 1941. There main purpose at first was to tie-down as many German troops to Yugoslavia. To relieve pressure on the USSR front. To do that they started to attack German and other Axis forces troops throughout Yugoslavia. And when they could they teamed up with local Chetniks for those early attacks.
The problem was that while the Ustase protected the Croat civilians from reprisal. And Hitler respected the Bosniaks from WW1 when they served with the Austro-Hungarian armies. So he wouldn’t permit reprisals against them. The Serbs were left to suffer the reprisals for those Partisan attacks. For every early Partisan attack the Germans slaughtered Serb civilians. Being a multi-ethnic communist led group the Partisans,though while sad about that. They took the viewpoint of “oh well,that’s war”.
But to the purely Serb Chetniks that was a disaster. So they began to deal ,first with the Italians,then with the Germans. First it was a “truce,ceasefire” arrangement. Then fighting broke out between Chetniks and Partisans. And some Chetniks began to co-operate with the Germans against the Partisans. Until they ended with a civil war,within the civil war,within the big war.
We all know how it all ended. The Germans were defeated,the Chetniks were declared traitors by the allies, and by Tito’s new government,with many executed . Many Ustase were killed and many fled to the US,Australia,Canada,Argentina,etc. Quite a few of them with help from the Vatican in the infamous “Rat Line”.
They and their descendants worked against Yugoslavia for the West during the years of the Cold War. And helped Croatia and Bosnia to breakaway from Yugoslavia leading to the Yugoslav Wars of the 1990’s. From their actions during WW2 sprang the fear and hatred that fueled those wars. You could say their last gift to their “homelands” was the destruction of those lands. And here we are today.
This is not a detailed rendition of the events of that time. More an overview for those not familiar with those lands during that period.
A good overview… Could almost publish it as an essay by the name “Why everyone hates each other in former Yugoslavia”, but this is not a topic to joke about…..
“This wasn’t a case of the Serbs seizing lands that would have been independent otherwise. There was no thought among the allies of making Croatia or Slovenia,let alone Bosnia independent states. Had they not joined with Serbia Slovenia would have been split totally between Italy and Austria. And Croatia split between Italy,Serbia,with the rump staying with Hungary. While Bosnia was slated to join Serbia totally.”
– You will never be able to explain this to them as they love the story of Greater Serbia devouring the Europe and the world.
This Greater Serbia phantom was especially pushed by western powers in order to justify their intervention against the said (phantom) threat. In fact they used it every single time they intervened. Be it Krajina, Bosnia, Kosovo and Serbia.
And guess what – every time they went to save the poor oppressed people of Balkans from the Greater Serbian Monster – it ended with Serbian population being reduced to statistical error in those areas. In whole of Croatia there is now around 4,3% Serbs. Some areas like Srpska Krajina where Serbs were the majority they were redced to around 1-2%.
Same for Kosovo, once Serbian land, now with just a few percent of Serbs (around 2%)
BUT HEY! Serbs are taking it over. They are making a Great Serbia that will consume you all!
Now irony aside, some thinkers and nationalists really spoke of Serbia which included bigger territorry. They said that parts of Bosnia and Croatia historically and ‘ethnically’ belong to Serbs. But that was never the official state policy.
Imagine Aleksandr Dugin talking about Russian Empire and proposing taking of territories that were once part of it. And the all neighbours going crazy about it and claiming Russia wants to invade them! (oh wait, this is actually happening. and just as with ‘Greater Serbia’ it is used as a scarecrow).
The 1999 NATO Liberation of Kosovo involved the cleansing of all minorities: Serbs, Gypsies, Ashkaelia, Croats, and Circassians. Turks and Goranci also suffered, but were not expelled.
Thanks Uncle B,for giving some background to the complex situation in the Balkans
Tito was a Croat himself. I blame him for most of today’s problems in what used to be Yugoslavia. He also created problem for Greece by renaming Vardarska Republic into a thorny name “Makedonija” and pushing false history narrative on them.
There had never been a “Vardarska republic”, that region is named Makedonija even before the Ottoman concquests.
Makedonija or some variant of it was in use since the territory became part of the empire of Phillip II, which was a couple of 100 years before Slavic people even settled in that area. So the name pre-dates the Slavs.
The Vardar name was only used from 1913 or 14 until it became a Socialist Republic again with the name Makedonija.
The problem for the Greeks is, THEIR Macedonia is the same one, ie the other half of the territory (although with mostly Greek population) only administratively split in 1913.. Both are equally entitled to the name.
=================
The comment by Anon who started this precisely illustrates the problem with unravelling the past. How far back do we go? how far back is it reasonable? if people of your ethnicity held an area once, but have not lived there for generations, is your current group entitled to that area? what about the generations of the others who’ve lived there since?
When a majority population is allowed their own state, what about the minorities caused by this division? do they have to leave? will they be treated decently? will they, too, get their own little state? how small can we go? every village to become its own state?
Very good questions KK.
Look what Israel’s legitimacy is based on: a former colony of an empire more than a thousand miles away is invaded and then converted into a plantation by a people who rationalize their invasion by reference to myth. It doesn’t get any more inorganic/ahistorical.
But this people have built towns, cities, roads, hospitals, schools, theatres, communication systems – all concrete expressions of their recent-history. Several generations, now on its fifth have been born there. And it now has a multi-ethnic society most of whose members did not participate in the recent-history invasion.
That is why I support the two-nation state solution. You can’t unscramble an omelette.
Well, maybe it’s time to educate yourself. Look at this map:
http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/vardaska2a.jpg
Also, Kat Kan is correct as right after Otoman Empire collapsed this area was simply called Servia (Serbia today).
Sorry for dragging this out some more, if you think that this map is Serbian “propaganda”
I found similar map in Hungarian.
Somewhere in between that area was called Bulgaria as well, until it was taken away from Bulgaria in early 1900’s.
It is a cruel irony of History that :
“The first idea of a state for all South Slavs emerged in the late 17th century, a product of visionary thinking of Croat writers and philosophers [*] who believed that the only way for southern Slavs to regain lost freedom after centuries of occupation under the various empires would be to unite and free themselves from tyrannies and dictatorships.
In the 19th century, the Illyrian movement, as it came to be called, attracted many prominent Croatian intellectuals and politicians. It started gaining large momentum only at the end of the 19th century, mainly because of the Revolutions of 1848 and the policies against freedom movements of southern Slavs. However, ideas for a unified state did not mature from the conceptual to a practical state of planning, and few of those promoting such an entity had given any serious consideration to what form the new state should take…..
The Yugoslav Committee was formed on 30 April 1915 in London, and began to raise funds, especially among South Slavs living in the Americas. These Yugoslavs were Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes who identified themselves with the movement toward a single Yugoslav or South Slavic state….
As the Habsburg Empire dissolved, a pro-Entente National Council of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs took power in Zagreb on 6 October 1918. On 29 October, a Yugoslavist Croatian Sabor (parliament) declared independence and vested its sovereignty in the new State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs, and two days later it declared its wish to enter state of union with Serbia and Montenegro. Soon afterward on 5 November the National Council in Zagreb asked the Serbian military for help in controlling anarchy in Croatia.”
(I quote Wikipedia for convenience)
[*] Prominent among them was Juraj Križanić (c. 1618 – 12 September 1683), also known as Yuriy Krizhanich or Iurii Krizhanich (Russian: Крижанич, Юрий), was a Croatian Catholic missionary who is often regarded as the earliest recorded pan-Slavist…. Križanić was one of the earliest proponents of Pan-Slavism. The language he created and used in his writing (his “Common Slavonic Language”) was a mixture of several Slavic languages and was devised to serve as a symbol of and even to promote Slavic unity. He wanted to unite the Slavic nations under the Russian Tsar and unite Catholic and Orthodox against the German Protestants and Turkish Muslims.” What is interesting is that at the time the Tsar would have none of it and send Krizhanich for a while (15 years) to Siberia to cool a bit his head!
Ej bre Siniša, ne treba nam takva loša propaganda, šta može svet da misli o nama tužibabama? Izgubili smo sve ratove koje smo pokrenuli, zaboravimo sve i okrenimo se EU.
[TR: Hey f**k Siniša, we do not need such a bad propaganda, what can the world think about us tell-tale? We lost all the wars we start, let’s forget everything and turn to the EU.]
neo-Nazis + Oligarchs in a dead-end economy. does not sound like nation-building,
nor does it sound stable… or affordable.
the rest of the cordon sanitaire- Black Sea to Baltic – is stable.
so why would the IMF agree? or Germany?
or who else would want to pay for anything?
to a long term agenda of martial law on a restive population?
(your Gen. Reshetnikov sees it as predictably restive and expanding the civil war).
and why is Yats out?
you claim an American agenda, but you say the Am don’t believe in an “Operation Storm”,
and certainly not in a passive Russia. what does another failed state do to confidence in the US among allies current or future? so how does this make sense?
the US doesn’t have unlimited time or money. there’s serious weakness in dollar support
with the petro-dollar crash. (more from “blue” would benefit this site; or an interview with
Michael Hudson).
Dear Saker
I am a Croat and I support everything what Croatia did on its way to independence.
I regret only that Croatia has been turned against Russia and into an American vassal.
I have no remorse towards Serbs, nevertheles whoever of Serbs wants to be a friend to Croats, for me he is a friend and a good man.
In the struggle between the Serbs and Kosovars, my support is on the side of the Serbs.
I also support 100% Russia in this struggle against the Natoists, UKUSA and Nazi-Ukraine.
I support your view. Many errors and misinterpretations exists in this Saker text. I like to read this site because of different views and different opinions that are presented regarding fight in Ukraine but many comments after this text distort history regarding Croatia – Serbia war. If you want to see facts and similarities just check who was killing civilians at the beginning of the war. It same in Ukraine and Croatia.
I agree with the conclusion of the analysis, “Krajina” scenario is not possible in Novorussia, because situation is not the same, but very different. Results will be the same: victory for those who fight for their land but blood must be spilled for freedom.
You don’t seem to remember the young Macedonian soldier who was pulled out of his military vehicle in Split and his throat was cut and this was before the war broke out. Also you don’t seem to remember the killings of Serbian teachers, doctors and lawyers in Gospic prior to the start of the war. This was revealed by a Croatian police officer who was assassinated by nationalists for revealing this atrocity. Maybe a look at some of Drakulic’c writing (Croatian writer) and what she has to say how the events unfolded in Krajina. .This NYT article deals with Gospic http://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/25/world/evidence-in-massacre-points-to-croats.html
Good article at NYtimes. If you read carefully, it shows real picture behind main story. Like this one: “A report released today by Helsinki Watch, a human rights organization, describes and documents 14 incidents in which Serbian irregular forces killed at least 200 Croatian civilians or unarmed combatants, including 43 people in the village of Vocin in mid-December.” This is just one village. There were hundreds of atrocities like this one. These were civilians.
Croats understand Serbs in Kosovo, since they saw that when the Albanian UCK began killing them, all Croats had to flee Kosovo.
Breaking up Yugoslavia was made possible by the West and the IMF, by crushing the Yugoslav economy; until then, no traditional hatreds were noticeable, except in Kosovo, which was run by Albanians, in somehow unpleasant ways.
As for Croatia, the Ustashas began killing Serbs and blowing up their businesses one year before the war started.
Until when Germany did not give support to secession, most Croats still wanted to keep Yugoslavia. Serbs did not mind for the Croats to secede, as long as the Serb areas also could. But the West needed a war, to give a task to NATO; so they vetoed Serb secession.
“The UN then established “UN Protected Areas” or UNPAs in which the local Serbs were supposed to be safe from Croatian attacks.”
so you can vouch that serbs did not attack croatian cities for 4 years constantly? and they did not ethnically clensed krajina region of croats and burned down all the catholic churches in an effort to erase all the traces of croatian people there?
you must be delusional in one of yours “saint serbs rant”.
we feel for the poor people of donbass being attacked daily because we know how that feels because serbs along with yugoslav army did that to croatians.
your distortion of history will expose you.
Come now,explain the demographics now and before, in Croatia,Serbia and Bosnia. You can bend the truth as much as you like. How many Croats were expelled from Serbia and how many Serbs are expelled from Croatia?
And after you review the numbers,call back and apologise for making out of victims-their executioners.
And please do mention next time Orthodox churches destroyed and seized by the Croatian state and also flats,houses,businesses seized/destroyed. In that instance those are just consequences of civil war. But other way around it it planned genocide. Get real and go dig pits from Grubisno Polje to name just one. Victims of your proud predecessor state have not yet been excavated. But more bodies are piled.
We had civil war. Destruction and killing is the norm there. But let us compare some numbers and stop whitewashing state created by Hitler at the behest of Vatican. Vatican that helped many war criminals to get away using Rat channels. And finally start looking who instigated those killing and destruction and who had support from who in those times.
First time WWI slaughter in Macva in which much praised Josip Broz Tito was participant on the side of AustriaHungary. See work of Archibald Reiss for details. Tito even was lifelong president of Yugoslavia after the WWII. Imagine that! Somehow it reminds me of a Hitler jugend Pope. But everyone can redeem itself,yes. But what has he done and supported? Beatification of Alojzije Stepinac? That alone was a deed of condemnation not redemption.
Second time WWII. Jasenovac,Garavice,Grubisno Polje,Prebilovci,Pridvorica,Susnjar,Prnjavor,Divoselo,Logori Caprag i Sisak,Jastrebarsko,Glina,Kordun,Sadilovac,…
http://www.jadovno.com/ This is a link to check out
Also check this site quoted here many times. It is a fabrication to equate Ustashe genocide with crimes of Chetniks. There were crimes commited by them,we Serbs are not immune when it comes to scum among us. But numbers and state support are problem and that is why first is genocide and the others are war crimes. For every Croat and Bosniak killed how many Serbs are killed? When you compare those numbers,state support and methods used,you understand the whitewashing process in work here.
http://espressostalinist.com/genocide/fascist-croatia/
http://www.serb-victims.org/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/ This one is not complete but worth checking. It saddens me that even so many years after we still do not have complete archive. But that is the work of 5th columnist. Among others.
And now we come to 90’s. Usa,Germany helped Croatia and Saudi Arabia helped Bosnia. Nothing to be said more. Just to add one more thing. JNA Yugoslav Peoples Army was no friend of the Serbs. They played their scripted role. If they were our friends they would defend the constitution and act decisively. And please spare me the self determination BS. For Croatia it was OK to secede,even if it was against the constitution. But it was somehow not OK for Serbs to stay in Yugoslavia. Two faced hypocrisy from the west.
There is irrefutable fact that we are and will be neighbours. We have issues from the past and unless we find a way to sort them out it is only a matter of time when the Hegemon instigates another war. This time not civil(no pun intended) but between states. We are all small change to the empires that used us and will use us again. We must understand that if we want to live free,we must not bury the truth as we have done in previous times. Because that way we are sure to have more war.
I must say I strongly disagree with this “It wont matter if USA or Israel arms Ukraine” deal.
It matters a huge deal, human wars are fought with technology, just a few of the most advanced weapons in the hands of nazists in Ukraine could make life very difficult for NAF soldiers.. For example the most advanced anti-tank weapons USA has against NAF tanks from the 70’s… With these weapons an average Ukrainian soldiers or nazi volunteer could just see an NAF tank over a hill, pop up, press fire and jump down again and the missile would autotaget and hit the tank and destroy it 100%, a tank from the 70’s would not stand a chance.. And there are not so many tanks, so just a small increase in the kill rate of tanks would make a huge difference, and the difference likely wont be small either, it will likely be huge.
High tech anti-tank weapons would turn tanks that used to be bunkers into death traps.
And if you look at NAF today, they are not equipped with the latest and band most high-tech from Russia, most do not even have body armor..They mostly appear to be equipped with ww2 weapons and weapons from the early 70’s, the voentorg seems to mostly refer to fuel and ammo, not high tech.. Most of the NAF soldiers wear hunting gear as cammo..And these are the best, many wear T-shirts and various other random clothing.
You do not think the Ukrainian army being flooded by 2014 weaponry and body armor would make a difference against NAF 1945-1970s weaponry and gear?
And saying that Russia could defeat the microscopic Georgia military even thought it had USA gear and comparing that for NAF and nazists in Kiev is totally incorrect. Russias army was huge and they had high tech too.
When human fights wars, tech plays a huge central role, and don’t come and say that the Taliban or vietnamn defeated USA with low tech, because those were two different kinds of warfare, the vietcong conducted guerilla warfare and hide from the enemy, the NAF soldiers stand in the open and run towards the enemy or they run towards them, either way it is eye-to-eye conventional warfare. If one side, the side with the huge army and the 40 million people recruitment pool suddently did a tech jump 40 year tech jump in weaponry and body armor and gear that would have a huge, huge, huge effect..
There is a simple solution to this, if the enemy has the latest anti-tank weapons, don’t use tanks. Also of course Russia could respond in kind with its latest anti-tank weapons. Being at the border Russia can supply and train the rebels with these weapons much quicker. The resulting devotion of the war into one with less heavy weapons and more heavy infantry favours the rebels, since it favours defence and slows down any offensive.
I don’t think not using tanks is an option in conventional warfare.
That is a bit interesting because Russia can’t really supply the rebels with latest high-tech gear because it is illegal for a state to supply rebels in another state with weapons, so far Russia seems only to have supplied the rebels with old soviet stuff, so it is not possible to prove it is from Russia. Because it is the same old soviet stuff that the Ukrainian army and nazi volunteers uses, but if USA and Israel flood Ukraine with advanced weapons, Russia will not be able to do the same, not without losing the plausible deniability factor.
Have France, Great Britain, or the United States ever been concerned about plausible deniability in their adventures in funding and arming insurrection in Libya, Syria, Yugoslavia, Iraqi Kurdistan 1970-75 and 1991, Nicaragua, Cuba, Santo Domingo, Haiti, Chile?
Why does Russia feel obliged to pretend it follows the non-interference rules for which the “International Community” shows such contempt for?
Plausible deniability, in this case, allows Free World leaders to take the “moral high road” and preach against Russian mendacity.
No, but that is because USA, UK, and France have almost informational monopoly in the world.. If USA openly arms wahhabi terrorist to overthrow the Syrian government that is fine. But if Russia supposedly aided their own people against nazi battalions that is a a global wave of anti-Russian propaganda follow by sanctions.
But that has already happened.
Supply and deny.
I must say I strongly disagree with this “It wont matter if USA or Israel arms Ukraine” deal.
It matters a huge deal, human wars are fought with technology, just a few of the most advanced weapons in the hands of nazists in Ukraine could make life very difficult for NAF soldiers.. For example the most advanced anti-tank weapons USA has against NAF tanks from the 70’s… With these weapons an average Ukrainian soldiers or nazi volunteer could just see an NAF tank over a hill, pop up, press fire and jump down again and the missile would autotaget and hit the tank and destroy it 100%, a tank from the 70’s would not stand a chance.. And there are not so many tanks, so just a small increase in the kill rate of tanks would make a huge difference, and the difference likely wont be small either, it will likely be huge.
High tech anti-tank weapons would turn tanks that used to be bunkers into death traps.
And if you look at NAF today, they are not equipped with the latest and band most high-tech from Russia, most do not even have body armor..They mostly appear to be equipped with ww2 weapons and weapons from the early 70’s, the voentorg seems to mostly refer to fuel and ammo, not high tech.. Most of the NAF soldiers wear hunting gear as cammo..And these are the best, many wear T-shirts and various other random clothing.
You do not think the Ukrainian army being flooded by 2014 weaponry and body armor would make a difference against NAF 1945-1970s weaponry and gear?
And saying that Russia could defeat the microscopic Georgia military even thought it had USA gear and comparing that for NAF and nazists in Kiev is totally incorrect. Russias army was huge and they had high tech too.
When human fights wars, tech plays a huge central role, and don’t come and say that the Taliban or vietnamn defeated USA with low tech, because those were two different kinds of warfare, the vietcong conducted guerilla warfare and hide from the enemy, the NAF soldiers stand in the open and run towards the enemy or they run towards them, either way it is eye-to-eye conventional warfare. If one side, the side with the huge army and the 40 million people recruitment pool suddently did a tech jump 40 year tech jump in weaponry and body armor and gear that would have a huge, huge, huge effect..
Vivv on April 16, 2015 · at 10:38 am UTC said:
“I must say I strongly disagree with this “It wont matter if USA or Israel arms Ukraine” deal.
It matters a huge deal, human wars are fought with technology, just a few of the most advanced weapons in the hands of nazists in Ukraine could make life very difficult for NAF soldiers.”
Common sense – imagine 1 modern tank versus the most powerful army of say 150? years ago.
Vivo you said: “And saying that Russia could defeat the microscopic Georgia military even thought it had USA gear and comparing that for NAF and nazists in Kiev is totally incorrect. Russias army was huge and they had high tech too.”
Well sorry Bud, but Russia was perceived weakling and Georgia was used as a test No.1
Ukraine was supposed to be a bait for test No.2, but Putin rightfully so did not bite.
There might yet be a war between Russia and Ukraine, if pro-USA forces defeat the rebels Russia will have to invade to rescue them.
It looks certainly that Russia had high tech, although the BSMSM poked fun at the Russian commanders who “had to use their own mobile phones”. It is my conviction that all electronic systems have been disabled at once and that’s why the Georgian Army could not see the Russians coming (from above) despite their night vision goggles. They were too busy filming the “rusty tanks” struggling on the mountain roads and waiting to make mincemeat of them at the Roki tunnel (with the most advanced anti-tank NATO rockets), when they were already behind them.
Saker refers to Pres. Putin maybe having to do do something to protect Donbass in the event of certain events happening, public pressure etc…beeb has recently started to show a 6 part series “extreme russia”
(depends on one’s perspective-interviewers selective perspective? of course)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b05r844j/reggie-yates-extreme-russia-1-far-right-proud
first part examined Putin’s popularity and nationalist support, but mostly looking at ultranationalist movements. marches, subject of immigration in Russia—some c**p comments from programme interviewer but he does get behind the scenes a bit…..might be worth assessing the extent of these movements and their effect-impetus?
““extreme russia”
Sometimes concentrating on the what obscures the why.
Portraying Russia as the Soviet Union or a close analogue of it are very useful ideological tools.
From inception the Soviet state was at war with its people and people of other areas which the state invaded/occupied – the “Revolution” being a coup maintained by similar, but more extensive activities, than presently displayed by the junta in Kiev.
The ideology of some people within Ukraine and some people outside of Ukraine are based on lived experience.
Hence the Soviet state was not only a cause of the present junta in Ukraine, a model upon which some of the activities of the junta is based, but also used as an incantation to engage support for the present junta in Kiev.
Russia is not the Soviet Union and/or the Soviet state because the vast majority of persons in Russia, including the present representatives, have lived and/or family experience of the Soviet state. The Soviet Union and the notion perputrated under the Stalinist regime of the Russian big brother and Russian exceptionalist nationalism will not return.
The problem with the discussion of what happened during Operation Storm is that some parts are still secret. NATO had already crossed the border of bombing Serb positions and some people have claimed that the US had threatened that they do so again if Serbian forces would help the Croatian Krajna.
The goals of the US in Ukraine are vague. My impression is that they would be happy just keeping the trouble going on.
I can see a lot of parallels here. It started with providing “Nato instructors” and after the Croat army was getting beat up by Serbs American generals took over the command of Croat army. The rest is history as we know it.
Tired of rewriting everything again and again…
http://fortruss.blogspot.se/2015/04/remember-fate-of-serbian-krajina.html
Author Sacker doesn’t speak the truth. First of all, Krajina borders you see there was result of Yugoslav Army offensive and not Serbs from Krajina. After the conflict in Croatia had become a civil war between Croats and Serbs, then Yugoslav stopped advancing and withdrew from Croatia, and you know what happened after that? Serbs army from Krajina made a peace with Croats (cease fire agreement much like the Minks ones).
From 4+ years of war, Croatia have only had about a few months of war (at the beginning when Yugoslav army pressed forward), the rest was basically peaceful time, and the only breach was dropping few bombs on Croatia capital Zagreb, after which Krajina Serbs was accused of “genocide and horrific war crimes,” and then they gave their heavy weapons to West led UN peacekeeping mission.
The whole point is, Serbs from Krajina never fought Croats. You see that Krajina borders in Dalmatia… the ones going all the way to the sea? That border created general Mladic, which I think it’s important to mention since Serbs from today Croatia love to spit on him and belittle his accomplishments.
From +600.000 Serbs living in SR Croatia, they have only managed to filled army of 15.000 soldiers (from which only 8.000 were professional Kraijina soldiers), and the rest were paramilitary units like those who attacked Srebrenica: remember, when Serbs attacked Srebrenica, they only had around 400 professional VRS soldiers and the rest (2.000 strong), were locals who enlisted because they wanted the revenge for killings Wahhabi Bosnians had committed before.
Bosnians there had an army of 6.000 strong, Serbs were vastly outnumbered, but Serbs fought with heart and nothing could stop them. There were probably more Serbs in Croatian army, which numbered around half a million, then there was in Krajina army. Half the ministry in the ruling party of Craotia today were those Serbs who fought on Croatian side against their fellow Serbs from Krajina. So much for “not wanting to fight”.
The article, and the most of the comments are not telling the truth. Kraina can in no way be compared to Donbass. It is offensive to people in Donbass, first of all.
In the first place was primarily organized and run by unitaristic and Serbian nationalistic forces, backed with Peoples Army of Yougoslavia (with central command in Belgrade), and Arkan paramilitary units which has no real historical or other resonance to Croatian Serbs.
The Unit, Serbian documentary made after assassination of their prime minister, is one of best documentary about the war in Yugoslavia which explains also the formation of Kraina.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfqbjLrXlBk
There is a very strange tendency to compare Ukraine with Croatia. Croatia was bombed and attacked by unitaristic and nationalistic forces and Yugoslav army centrally run from Belgrade, very much like nationalistic junta in Kiev is now bombing Donbass. Therefore, trying to say otherwise is ill informed.
Open attack on Croatia was started with bombing of Dubrovnik from the Yugoslavian Army positions in Montenegro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU0JPXUmg44
Dubrovnik, UNESCO world heritage site was the first in the row of attacked cities, which followed with full blown attacks on other Croatian territories.
Does anyone know why exactly the attack on Croatia started with world heritage site?
….
(A hint): Geneva Convention, article 53.
You are spewing lies as well. Attack on Croatia started when they declared independence, and it wasn’t Dubrovnik that got attacked but Ilok (easternmost part of today Croatia). Dubrovnik, btw, became “Croat” city in 1939. and never before in history of Dubrovnik (that is also when people of Dubrovnik and surroundings became Croats, for they had never been Croats before 1939. Ever. All territories bellow Cetina river historically were our Serbian territories ever since we got here in 7th century from today Russia (you can google about these medieval Serbian states: Travunija, Duklja, Raska, Pagania, Zachumia and Bosnia. Here, let me help you so you wouldn’t… go astray… god forbid, lol:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Migrations_serbes_avant_1000.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Serb_lands_in_the_9th_century_%28en%29.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Central_and_Eastern_Europe_around_950_AD.png
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Serbia960AD.png)
And after we had got declaration of independence by the Croats, Serbs in SR Croatia declared their independence from Croatia and then it became civil war. It took some time – a few months for them to organize – and in the meantime, Yugoslav army fought those separatist Croat forces, yes. After that,Yugoslav army have withdrawn, true.
Ah, let me just add something very important so the readers here would better understand dynamics when Serbs from Krajina become a subject. It’s very simple. Some part, perhaps even majority, of Serbian population east of Lika (particularly Kordun and west and east Slavonia) is not ethnically Serbian, but Croat. They were Croats who became Serbs, and I am guessing many of them know it, which is why they were always so eager to accept their Croato brothers… to bring them into our presence and wash them of responsibilities for their crimes and atrocities. They brought their Croato brothers among partisan resistance to fascist occupation, especially largely after the 1943. when it became apparent that Nazis are going to lose (for their Croato brothers then massively started to go into partisans, before that they had been proud Ustashe). That is why they were never so eager to fight their brothers, you see. That is something one has always to have before his eyes if he tries to understand impulses and motivation of that part of our people. If only they were never accepted being part of us, thing would have gone different way and their Croato brothers would not have so benefited in the last century. Now the situation is what it is.
This is the first time i hear of this,Croats becoming Serbs. Other way round yes,but this is my first time hearing this. Please post some more info. Books,links,video,anything,so that i can look for it. I admit my scepticism upfront but am willing to hear this one out.
As for bringing brothers into the partisan movement,that was done by Tito. He even intervened with USSR to bring home 369th Croatian Reinforced Infantry Regiment that fought under the Stalingrad on the German side. Some of them even got medals and pensions just like those partisans that fought against the Germans in Yugoslavia. Some of the officers were killed in transit. Rest,as far as i know,were free. Bizzare?
Pa ne trebaju ti nikakve knjige ili tudja misljenja, dovoljno je da svoju glavu imas i da znades njome misliti, i naravno da neke istorijske cinjenice znades isto tako. Sigurno zandes da ovi danasnji Arvati juzno od Cetine nijesu etnicki Hrvati. Za to si cuo ja mislim, iako ni za to nikakijeh knjiga koje bi to dokazale nemas, ali imas mnogo istorijskijeh tragova i ove iznad mape ti posluziti tome mogu ka sto i kultura i jezik pojedinijeh mjesta svoju pricu pricaju.
E ne znadem ja koliko je tebi poznato da mi u Crnoj Gori imamo 11% Bosanske populacije naseljeno u jugoistocnijem cijelovima u opstinama Rozaje, Berane, Plav i Bijelo Polje, ka i da imamo nekijeh 6% Albanaca u juznijemkrajevima isto tako.
E Albanci su vecijem dijelom nepozvani dosli i naselili se, ali Bosanci nijesu, to su one poturice koje ostadose. Oni su 90-ijeh Bosancima postali, znades i to. Eto vidis i na ovome primjeru kako jedan dio populacije predje u drugi narod: prvomedju Turke, a sada u Bosance.
Sto bi to tako neobicno bilo da su i Hrvati medju Srbe prelazili. E sada treba znati da kada su Srbi bjezali pred Turcma, masovno to bjese u gorske, brdske i planinske krajeve Like koja nepristupacna bjese a i zbog toga sto su Srbi vazda vise zudili za brdima, gorama i planinama no za nizinama i ravnijem krajevima.
Takodje treba kazati da su oni nizinski krajevi koji poslije Habsburgovci prekrstise u Vojnu Krajinu bili i prije naseljeni, i da naseljenici nijesu bili Srbi, dok brdski i planinski krajevi Like i sjeverne Dalmacije to nijesu bili,i da su Srbi pred Turcima isli u planinske i brdske krajeve a ne u one naseljene nizinske.
Znaci da je bilo prilicno Hrvackoga stanovnistva u Slavoniji i Kordunu koji su tamo bili prije dolazala Srba i da zbog svoje buntovnosti ne bjese omiljeni u Becu koji je sve Hrvacke krajeve sceo germanizovati.
E kada tude jos dodas da Hrvati ni dosvojega jezika ne drze no ga ka krpu odbacise i Srpski stokavski prisvojise i svojijem proglasise, onda te nema sta cuditi cinjenica da su Hrvati i medju Srbe u pristupacnijem, nizinskijem krajevima rado prelazili ka sto su i poturice zbog povlastica rado medju Turke prelazili i 500 godna Turcima bili, iako seoni sada toga vise “ne sjecaju” (cakavski jezik je Hrvatski jezik ako nijesi znao; tijem jezikom su samo Hrvati vazda govorili, i niko vise; oni Hrvati uz krajeve uz Sloveniju su prisvojili Slovenski kajkavski jezik, dok su oni Hrvati iz Slavonije i gornje Dalmacije koji prije Hrvatskijem cakavskijem govorise prisvojili Srpski stokavski jezik,i zato kod Hrvata sada imas situaciju da oni tudje jezike “svojijem narjecjima” nazivaju razumijes?
Svako ko ima njesta u glavi znade da Srpski jezik ima 3 narjecja: ijekavski, ekavski i ikavski i to one karte povise sve dobro razlazu popitanju ikavsitne shvatas, i svako znade da je Slovenski jezik kajkavski jezik i da to njegov krnji oblik kojijem se Hrvati na sjevernoj Hrvatskoj sluze nije “Hrvacko narjecje” no tudji jezik ka sto je i stokavski Srpski tudji jezik za njijeh, da nije njihovo “narjecje.”) Eto valjda su ti sada neke stvari jasnije.
Well you do not need any books or the opinions of others, it is enough to make your head and you have to either know it think, and of course to some historical facts knowest also. Surely Andes that these today Arvati south of Cetina are not ethnic Croats. For that you’ve heard, I think, although not for that nikakijeh books that would prove you do not have, or have a lot istorijskijeh traces and above these folders you can serve it to the table and culture and language of their pojedinijeh tell stories.
E I know I do not as much as you know that we in Montenegro we have 11% of the Bosnian population settled in the southeast only country in the municipalities of Niksic, Berane, Plav and Bijelo Polje, and that we have to nekijeh 6% of Albanians in juznijemkrajevima also.
E Albanians Vecija part uninvited came and settled, but the Bosnians are not, that they are converts to Islam who were left. They are 90-IJEH Bosnians became, and knowest it. There you and in this example that some of the population to get into the other nation: prvomedju Turks, and now the Bosnians.
What would be so unusual for them to be among the Croats Serbs crossed. Now you should know that when the Serbs fleeing before Turcma, mass it had in mountainous, hilly and mountainous areas inaccessible Like that bjese and because the Serbs always yearn more for the hills, mountains and mountains but in the valleys and flatter regions.
We should also say that they are lowlands that after cross your Habsburgs in the Military Frontier was before settled, and that settlers were not Serbs, while mountain and mountain regions of Lika and northern Dalmatia that were not, and that the Serbs from the Turks went to the mountain and mountain regions and not in those populated lowlands.
So that was pretty wrestling population in Slavonia and Kordun who were there before dolazala Serbs and that because of their rebelliousness not bjese favorite in Vienna which is becoming hrvacke ends Sceo Germanize.
E tude when you add more to the Croats nor dosvojega languages do not keep it to no cloth rejected and Serbian Stokavian prisvojise svojijem and proclaimed a fast, and then there are the surprising fact that the Croats and Serbs among the more accessible, nizinskijem ends gladly switch to as the renegades are due privileges willingly among the Turks crossed and 500 Turks were unsuited, although Seon now that more “not remember” (Cakavian language is Croatian language if you did not know; tijem language are only Croats always said, and no one else; they Croats near the ends together with Slovenia are appropriated kajkavian Slovenian language, while they are Croats from Slavonia and Dalmatia to the top before hrvatskije cakavskijem talking about appropriated Stokavian Serbian language, and therefore the Croats now have a situation that those people’s languages ”svojijem dialects” called you understand?
Anyone who has something; in my head knows that Serbian language has three dialects: ijekavian, ekavski and Ikavian and that those maps raise all good degrade to issues ikavsitne realize, and everyone knows that the Slovenian language kajkavian language and to its truncated form which is the Croats Northern Croatia serve not “hrvacke dialects” but someone else’s language to what is and Stokavian Serbian foreign language for njijeh, that is not their “dialects.”) Well I guess you are now some things clearer.
As far as the language part it is excellently covered in the book by Petar Milosavljevic “Srpski filoloski program”
I would like to say that in Slavonija i Kordun, ijekavica variant of stokavica is spoken. And if we know that cakavica and kajkavica belong to Croats and Slovenes (i always mix which is whose),which is spoken in regions more to the west,than we cannot speak of that population being Croats to begin with. Which also question the part of Serbs coming to these regions and finding Croats already there. “Thing” that make that population Croatian is deception perpetrated in Novi Sad 1954. Novosadski Sporazum is the name of the agreement signed there which said that ijekavica variant of stokavica will be “centered” (still have no clue what that means) in Zagreb and rest of stokavica will be in Belgrade. And that is how ijekavica variant of stokavica became Croatian. And i would like to add that this variant is predominant in Croatia,which speak volumes in itself. Other thing that make that population Croat is their choice,pressured or not. But according to the language,they are speaking ijeakvica variant of stokavica, which actually is Serbian language.
Here i would like to draw a parallel. It is the same with Englishman and Americans. They both speak english. But how would it be if Americans started calling english language american language. Yes some of them are doing that. And people laugh at their ignorance. But be advised,in 50 years…
Same process is happening in Ukraine with the forming of Ukrainian language.
Aside from that i agree with everything else.
P.S. I see that you are speaking archaic form of language and i would like to thank you for keeping tradition alive. Also i would like to ask for your opinion on one matter. What are your thoughts of Djordjije Koprivica guslar?
Djordjije mi je rod. A nijesu se Hrvati zvanicno Srpskijem jezikom poceli sluziti sa tijem Novosanskijem sporazumom iz 1954. no 100 godina ranije, 1848. tzv. Knjizevnijem sporazumom iz Beca (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Literary_Agreement – prilicno je slabo opisano tude, ali to je ono sto dobijes sa Zapadnjackijeh izvora i na samo jednoj stranici). Sto se jezika tice, Hrvatski jezik je Cakavski. On se jos i danas govori u Liburniji, Kvarneru i primorju, a nekada je se govorio mnogo sirijem prostorom (cak i dijelom danasnje BiH recimo: sav onaj dio Autonomne Pokrajine Zapadne Bosne je govorio Cakavskijem jezikom, zbog cega na raki u postoji, ili je postojao, nesuglasje izmedju toga dijela Bosanskoga naroda posto jedan dio potjece od Srpskoga naroda dok drugi dio korijene vuce od Hrvatskoga naroda, pa su se oni i pobili bili tamo ’90-ijeh).kajkavsi jezik je Slovenski jezik, a onaj dio Hrvatskoga naroda koji zivi uz granicu sa Slovenijom je prihvatio dio toa jezika, tako da kod njijeh mozes cuti “kaj” iako ne govore zvanicnijem Slovenskijem jezikom nego mjesavinom Hrvatskoga jezika sa Slovenskijem rjecima i izricajima. Oni, usput kazavsi, nijesu Slovenci no Hrvati. pravi etnicki Hrvati. Svaku mapu koju uzmes od 7 vijeka kada su se Hrvati spustili sa prostora juzno od Volhinije dje su vjekovima, ako ne i iljadama godina imali svoju kraljevinu, jer su oni prilicno star Evropski narod, pleme, ce ti istu pricu kazati. Uostalome dovoljno je da sporvedes jedan veoma jednostavan eksperimenat pa da se uvjeris u istinitost toga: otidji u bilo koji od gradova i pripadajucijeh regija ka sto su Trebinje, Budva, Nis, Podgorica, Beograd, Novi Sad, Banja Luka, Split, Dubrovnik – dje se govori ijekavskijem, ikavskijem i ekavskijem narjecjem istoga jezika – i neces imati nikakijeh problema pri razumjevanju i sporazumjevanju sa lokalnijem stanovnistvom, dok to sa gradovima dje se govori Kajkavski i Cakavski jezik to oces. Ti Slovenca neces razumjeti, a i onoga Hrvata u zagorju neces razumjeti dobro iako oces bolje no Slovenca. Ista stvar je sa Cakavcima, iako su oni lopovlukom Bartula Kasica mnogo toga Srpskoga prisvojili, ali sigurno da ne bi veoma slabo ili nikako razumio pravoga cakavca od prije vremena stapanja kjezika i tzv. Ilirskijeh pokreta ka sto je bio slucaj sa Vatikanskijem sluganom Kasicem. To sve govori o tome sta je cemu srodno i dje sta pripada.
Djordjije my rod. And did not the Croats officially Srpskijem language began to serve with tijem Novosanskijem agreement of 1954 but 100 years earlier, in 1848 the so-called. Knjizevnijem the Vienna Agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Literary_Agreement – rather poorly described tude, but that’s what you get with Zapadnjackijeh sources and on only one page). As far as language, Croatian language is Cakavski. He is still spoken today in Liburnia, Kvarner, used to be speaking a lot Syria space (even a part of present-day Bosnia and Herzegovina say: all that part of the Autonomous Province of Western Bosnia spoke Cakavskijem language, why the crabs in there, or is there, discrepancy between this part of the Bosnian people per cent comes from one part of the Serbian people, while the second part of a background of the Croatian people, but they were there and killed ’90 -ijeh) .kajkavsi language is the Slovenian language, and the part of the Croatian people who living along the border with Slovenia has accepted part of it the language, so that at njijeh can hear “something” even though they do not speak more official Slovenian language but a mixture of the Croatian language with Slovenian words and expressions. They, by the way, saying, not Slovenes but Croats. real ethnic Croats. Each folder that you take from the 7th century when the Croats came down from the area south of Volhinije children for centuries, if not thousands of years had her own kingdom, because they are rather old European nation, tribe, will tell you the same story to tell. Uostalome enough to sporvedes a very simple experiment and see for yourself the truth of it: go to any of the cities and regions to pripadajucijeh as Trebinje, Budva, Nis, Podgorica, Belgrade, Novi Sad, Banja Luka, Split, Dubrovnik – children Spoken ijekavskijem, ikavskijem and ekavskijem dialects of the same language – and you will not have nikakijeh problems understanding these matters with more local population, and to the cities of children talking Kajkavski and Cakavski language that meshes. You will not understand the Slovenes, Croats and those in Zagorje you will not understand well although meshes better than Slovenia’s. The same thing is with Cakavian speaking, although they thievery Bartholomew Coin much more the Serb appropriated, but surely that would not be very little or no understanding of the true Cakavian speaking of the time before merging kjezika and called. Ilirskijeh movement to which was the case with Vatikanskijem lackey-based foods. It says everything about what is akin to what the children are entitled.
Thank Djordjije for singing about Janko Vukotic and sacrifice at Mojkovac made by him and his heroes. Večna im slava!
Cursed Vienna and their agreements! They never could stand independent Serbia. No matter how large or small. It was even preferable for them that Ottomans keep this territory rather than to be independent. If i remember correctly they even started calling Croats Illirians around that time. Even though that name was reserved for Serbs before that.
Vatican had crucial role in all those dealings! Same pattern we are seeing in Ukraine. Seed of discord was sown few century’s before and slowly fermented.
Creation of Ukrainian nation,at the expense of Russian ethnicity.
Ukrainian language was created which is basically Russian with few quirks. Anybody notice the pattern? Nobody reacted strongly at the time.
Zealotry created Greek Uniate church. Again at the expense of Orthodoxy. Zealotry is now masked as Ecumenistic movement.
“You will know them by their fruit”. And indeed we know them. Creation of new nations and ethnicities at the expense of Orthodox Christianity firstly and Slavs secondly. What was large and united once,as all humanity should strive to,was fragmented and century’s of uniting tribes and ethnicities into a larger group was targeted for fragmentation. And they dare call themselves unifying force. Shameful.
As for Croatian homeland south of Volhinia,can you please instruct me where to look for information about that?
Živ bio,ti i tvoji!
Ocu. Hvala. Ali da ne duzim dalje na ovome nasemu jeziku posto vidim da administrator uporno pokusava prevesti kazano, samo sto to njesta ne idje od ruke, ali time staviti do znanja valjda zeli da se sporazumijevati treba na Engleskome pa da i drugi razumjeti receno mogu, tako da cu dalje nevoljko na jeziku administratora nastaviti.
What you described is very old tactic which hoes back thousands of years. It’s called divide and conquer (divide et impera). Romans perfected and named it, but it had been used way back before Roman time. Very old. It basically means you divide your enemies, after which they waken themselves by infighting, and when they do, they become an easy prey for you. As a principle you always try to unify your forces and divide your enemies’s ones. Russia shouldn’t unite with all of today Ukraine, only with that part which contains Russian people, for you only ever unite, help and strengthen your own people else you end up like Russia in this example with Ukraine that had been subsidizing Ukraine in the last 20 years (total subsidies amounted for around 250 billion dollars in the last 20 years) only to have those West Ukrainians singing “Kill Russians! Death to the Muscovites! Etc.” (not to mention the fact they have been fighting with Russians for many a century now: they fought Russian in WW2, then in WW1 before that, and even before that they had fought Russia as a part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, etc. — they have very long history of fighting Russians). As a principle: If you are smart, you only help and support your own people, your own kind. You should ask yourself: why would anyone want to support someone who is not part of his people? You end up sacrificing your own resources at the expense of your own people and for your potential enemies of tomorrow — just like the case of Ukraine so clearly demonstrates at the moment. You don’t do, unless you are occupied or a slave of course: only slaves and occupied nations support someone against their own will. I am sure Japanese do not want to support American economy by buying American debt, but they are occupied nation since WW2 and they don’t get to have a say on the matter. Ukrainians are something West were building so they could drain Russia — exactly that principle you mentioned earlier (divide et impera). Ukraine never existed as a sovereign nation, and there have never been a nation called Ukrainians before 1991. Ukrainians were something Bolsheviks created. Best thing to picture them is comparing them to today Bosnians who also never existed before 1993. when their nation was created, and who also have no language and culture of their own (since they were never a sovereign people you see), so they go and steal the one they have been using before: Russian in the case of Ukrainians and our Serbian in the case of Bosnians. They are thieves and parasites the West created so we would fight with them and fall as an easy pray afterwards. You mentioned the case that none thinks of calling English language American, Australian or Canadian (or Austrians calling the language they are using – “Austrian” but German — which it is). You see, they strengthen their alliances by eliminating various subjects which could be used for bickering and fighting which could then lead to termination of their alliances. It’s the same for various social topics in their countries (“racism” is a good example for it; they use term to break or block every subject which could lead to fighting between different ethnicities and people living within the Empire, which could then lead to break of their Empire). You asked me about Volhynia.Volhynia is a country of East Slavic tribe called Volhynians. You can see on the map below the land they inhabited (and still do with a difference they do not call themselves thus anymore).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg
Ziv bio. Pozdrav.
Ocu. Hvala. Ali da ne duzim dalje na ovome nasemu jeziku posto vidim da administrator uporno pokusava prevesti kazano, samo sto to njesta ne idje od ruke, ali time staviti do znanja valjda zeli da se sporazumijevati treba na Engleskome pa da i drugi razumjeti receno mogu, tako da cu dalje nevoljko na jeziku administratora nastaviti.
What you described is very old tactic which hoes back thousands of years. It’s called divide and conquer (divide et impera). Romans perfected and named it, but it had been used way back before Roman time. Very old. It basically means you divide your enemies, after which they waken themselves by infighting, and when they do, they become an easy prey for you. As a principle you always try to unify your forces and divide your enemies’s ones. Russia shouldn’t unite with all of today Ukraine, only with that part which contains Russian people, for you only ever unite, help and strengthen your own people else you end up like Russia in this example with Ukraine that had been subsidizing Ukraine in the last 20 years (total subsidies amounted for around 250 billion dollars in the last 20 years) only to have those West Ukrainians singing “Kill Russians! Death to the Muscovites! Etc.” (not to mention the fact they have been fighting with Russians for many a century now: they fought Russian in WW2, then in WW1 before that, and even before that they had fought Russia as a part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, etc. — they have very long history of fighting Russians). As a principle: If you are smart, you only help and support your own people, your own kind, for if you do, you end up sacrificing your own resources at the expense of your own people and for your potential enemies of tomorrow — just like the case of Ukraine so clearly demonstrates at the moment. You don’t do it, unless you are occupied or a slave of course: only slaves and occupied nations support someone against their own will. I am sure Japanese do not want to support American economy by buying American debt, but they are occupied nation since WW2 and they don’t get to have a say on the matter. Ukraine are something the West was building so they could drain Russia — exactly that principle you mentioned earlier (divide et impera). Ukraine never existed as a sovereign nation, and there has never been a nation called Ukrainians before 1991: it was something Bolsheviks created. You asked me about Volhynia.Volhynia is a country of East Slavic tribe called Volhynians. You can see on the map below the land they inhabited (and still do with a difference they do not call themselves thus anymore).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/89/East_Slavic_tribes_peoples_8th_9th_century.jpg
Ziv bio. Pozdrav.
In the documentary “Yugoslavia, The Avoidable War” we see the reality of the fraud that the shelling of Dubrovnik was: All sound and no fury.
The Croat regime was led by a Holocaust denialist, who had accused the Jews of being in charge of the death camp Jasenovac. By the way, they destroyed the Jasenovac museum.
Zagreb carried out a campaign of religious discrimination and then terror, and Belgrade let them get away with it, just like Moscow let the Kievans get away with theirs campaigns, until Strelkov intervened.
Please send me that stuff you were inhaling/ingesting. Soooo many outright lies,half-lies,spinning,imputations,sprinkled with just a minimal amount of truth. Someone should make a study of it. You did excellent job making example of all those techniques.
More Serbs in Croatian army than in Krajina army?
Serbs and Croats not fighting?
General Mladic was the leader of Krajina army. So…
Yugoslav army offensive. Please. Those were scripted engagements. Executed and directed by the MOD and Stjepan Mesic president of the presidency of Yugoslavia. They sowed maximum confusion and made maximum PR damage possible and then fled. Bombing of Vukovar for example. Horrible atrocity i agree. Do you know how many times JNA units were stopped from advancing and returned to starting positions? Conscripts that believed in Yugoslavia were dying in droves. Along the civilians. And it was all orchestrated. By whom?
Cui bono? Croatia got a state which it would never get from their masters Germans and Vatican. And here some moan about their fate being puppets of USA. At least they gave you the state. Serbia got a repeat of WWII. Countless lives lost again. Enormous number of refugees flowed into Serbia,first from Croatia then Bosnia and in the end Kosovo. Not to forget Kosovo which got it’s quasi state.
On the subject of Crimea and Kosovo just briefly. They are the same thing. Just 50 or so years apart. Crimea was now returned and Kosovo is taken. But just as Crimea returned so will Kosovo one day.
Croats got everything they wanted: they won the war and got an ethnically cleansed state, whitewash of their Nazi/Ustasa past, NATO & EU membership and yet, astonishingly, they STILL rant against the Serbs!!!
Good grief, get a life!!!
It happens that way when all your patriotism is based on nothing but hatred of anything Serbian. If you deduct that from the equation of patriotism,you are left with nothing. So it is safe to assume that if by any chance Serbs vanish,so will the Croats. That is exactly the definition of national chauvinism. If Russians are to vanish,Ukraine would not have any reason for existence.
If not for the victims it would be comical.
I hope that we will see less chauvinism and revisionism here,so that we all can live as neighbours. Because we are neighbours. And if we are not careful we may well be reminded,again,that history has a tendency to repeat itself.
Whoever wants war,may he find it in his home. Another proverb from Serbia.
Was Oles Buzina murdered?
http://novorossia.today/journalist-and-writer-of-anti-fascist-convictions-oles-buzina-was-murdered-in-kiev/
This is appalling!!
I listened/watched his explanations on the origin of ‘the Ukraine’.
He had Cossack origins, and described how the ten Cossack regiments fled from Polish controlled territory,to the west of the Dnepr river,to form the original Novorossiya in the 1600’s.
This is a crime to silence the real history of the Russian borderlands.
A great tragedy for decent people in the Russian world.
So sad!!
Croats will always defend the theory that this intervention was ‘just’ and ‘fair’ and that ethnically cleansing their country of Serbs is 100% legit.
But this doesn’t surprise me. Because the stance of their mentors is this:
– Ethnic Croatians have a right to self-determination and Croatia should be an independent state. BUT ethnic Serbs don’t have the same right in the areas where they were majority and therefore Srpska Kraina didn’t have the right to choose.
– Bosnian muslims can have their state if they choose but the Serbs that live in that area (Republika Srpska) don’t have the right of self-determination. Even today RS is still overly Serbian, but still no support from ‘international community’ to separate.
– Ethnic Albanians can separate based on ethnicity, but Serbs in northern Kosovo don’t have right to do the same. Far north of Kosovo and Metohija is almost pure Serbian part and, again, no ‘international community’ to come and say – “Do you want to choose what country you are part of?”
In all of these countries Serbs were present as long as there is evidence of them being on Balkans. They were NOT INVADERS, they were in their homes, for centuries.
But the commie Tito & Co. cleverly made AVNOJ borders to group other ethnicities the best they could and to separate the Serbs in all the different regions. So that, when Yugoslavia was about to dissolve, everyone would get their little state and their part of population of Serbs to oust from the new state. EU and USA, of course, supported this as it would weaken the Serbs dramatically.
Therefore, all non-Serbs had the right to take the areas they have lived on + chink of areas where Serb nationals lived, but the Serbs couldn’t choose to separate in areas where they were majority.
And this is why this kind of blatant denial of facts is the ‘new normal’. Western powers made it normal. Albanians, Croats and others just took the opportunity…..
“The US-Ukie oh-so-subtle plan appears to be very similar to the “Croatian variant”: buy enough time to prepare for a massive attack and then crush the “separatists” is a short but very intense campaign. The big question is – can that work?”
Not comparable and definitely no, it cannot work.
The big difference – we had UN-rule in those blue areas and Un aided the fascists. Also we had a no-fly zone and the air was fully under the US control, including bombing of serbian positions etc.
The fascists in Ukraine do not have that sort of advantage, nor are they fighting a bunch of rag-tag poorely trained amateurs with ancient weapons and zero outside support.
Exactly. This is why Kiev insists on the use of “peace force from the West”.
Yep, first time I heard it, I was instantly reminded of “home” and the propaganda tricks used back then and I had to laugh.
They are likely to just use bunker busters and leave the area to iradiated to live in. like areas of afghanistan and iraq, theres good reason they dont like holding fallujah they know theres a 15% severe birth defect rate from radiation, higher then hiroshima or nagasaki after the war. if the world lets america give ukies dirty bombs then parts of east ukraine will be a “national sacrifice zone” thats to expensive to clean up. (most unker usters contain 100s kgs of depleted uranium, some models contain enriched uranium and traces of plutonium have also been detected at blast sites
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/depleteduraniumlegacyyugoslavia28aug13.shtml
some reading relating to my comment sry i didnt include it in original draft
Mr.moderator;
Could you tell me why my post was blocked?
I am sure I did not break any rules.
What then?
Regards
We’ve seen your 4 replies, and note you are still engaging in “whataboutism”…. “what about XYZ said nearly the same thing” which is a form of argument where you claim to be refuting something by talking about something completely different. If you believe it is “silly to talk of Nazis” in Ukraine, we eagerly await your evidence for there being no Nazis there.
I am sorry that Saker is obviously not aware of the facts regarding Serbian aggression against Croatia.
The fate of Vukovar, the city destroyed by Serbian aggression in 1991, should provide the motivation to re-educate oneself to correct the wrong picture created by Serbian propaganda. The following may provide a good start:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfX4GJBSI0g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vukovar_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vukovar
Serbian propagandists obviously look at the tragedy of Ukraine as a golden opportunity to enlist Russia on their side in their conflict with Croatia, as they obviously plan to repeat their aggression on Croatia after they partially achieved their goals in Bosnia.
It’s true that the Yugoslav army should not have tried to play honest broker between Serbia and the Ustashas. It should have withdrawn, establishing itself on the religious border between Catholics and Orthodox, before the declaration of independence. At that point, the Croat secession would have probably collapsed.
Similarly, Russia should have had its organised partisans armed and ready to take over the Eastern cities and Odessa, as soon as the Maidanites began to kill police in Kiev.
Why do Slavs insist on following quaint international rules, which the Free World normally breaks? In the West, we are agile, always ready for insurrections and invasion, whenever the opportunity presents itself.
LOL, “religious border”??? It’s like trying to find one in NY city or London, much luck with that.
How clueless can people be…
In NYC, where society is much more mobile than in Bosnia or Croatia, avenues often are racial/religious borders.
During the Bosnia war, a reporter passing through a sacked village, could tell whose damaged houses those had been: if there was an icon on the floor, this had been a Serb village; if he saw crucifixes, it meant that the village had been Croat.
Might work for some small villages, but not for anything bigger. A minor city is already so mixed (even today) that there simply are no such borders, nor are they possible.
Where would you draw the border for a mixed marriage? In the kitchen maybe?
Your opinion that “Yugoslav army tried to play honest broker” shows the level of your absurd ignorance.
Or rather, your absurd partiallity, which also makes you call Croats “Ustashas”.
If you look at the (short) video I posted above, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfX4GJBSI0g ,
you will see that the destruction of Vukovar by artillery was two orders of magnitude larger than the artillery damage inflicted on Doneck, for example. And it was done by Yugoslav army (under the leadership of mostly Serbian officers), the army which in your opinion “tried to play honest broker”, LOL.
It is true that massacres of civilians and prisoners of war were done mostly by Serbian paramilitary units (like Arkan’s, for example) but they did not have the firepower needed for destruction shown in the Vukovar video which I posted above. The army, with its huge firepower, did that because it was under the firm control of pro-Milosevic Serbian officers.
cool it a bit people, all of you. Each only knows what he was brought up on. This is your chance to sort it out, if you do it honestly and with peace as your goal. Saker has just announced a big Serbian history project, 6th item here /important-saker-blog-community-news-and-various-requests-for-assistance/ we hope all of you will contribute to.
That is true about the paramilitary units, but frankly, those were bandits without attachments to any real national values. Simple criminals.
And let’s remember that the same were not a bit better at home, so that’s also why Arkan got killed – in Serbia to boot.
Vukovar as atrocious it was is overly mythified, while facts proved that croatian leadership needed a “hero-city” to rally the int. Community.
I cant say i blame anyone here in croatia as we have been brainwashed by the state for the past 25 yrs. Our “homeland war” as its PR name state produced 12.000 casualties on our side (croatian) and on the world scale classifies as a minute conflict and not a proper war, since federal army withdrew fairly quickly.
Out of aa fighting force of roughly half a million we only had 12k casualties (civilians included) and we dare call this somekind of great patriotic war?! Our coastline was full of tourists during the so called war, and money was pouring into the presidents and co. pockets,
Amongst friends we talk about our experiences and in safe and private enviroment we agree that the whole chetnik charade was partly produced by our PR. Serbo-chetnik was the term used since day one only to instigate the population to war and to achieve the biggest heist in croatian history (the famous 200 “noble families” to be created speach by the late pres. Franjo Tudjman).
Our whole nation in modern times is founded on pure anti-serb sentiment and its a funny fact given that so many ppl have serbian names and last names. Pur minister of defenders (imagine we have a ministry for the defwnders of croatia lool) is named Predrag Matic, now thats as serbian as you get…
There is hope for us yet. Be well,bide your time and reclaim your country back. We will also,and may we all meet one day and look upon our children playing together again.
@ anonymous
Thank you for your post!
Individuals like yourself give every bit of hope to even the darkest of pessimist from “the other” side.
Divisions are and were artificial and imposed on the peoples who still do not need an interpreter to communicate with each other and never will as it is one and the same language regardless of the names given to it.
In fact it seems to be a very rich language since it can sustain the branching off into Bosnian and Montenegrin, as we speak, apart from the other two that would go under the name of Serbian and Croatian ( my apologies I am a linguist who now can add to her CV 3 more languages. :)
As for the names – stand alone testimony – Zoran Milanovic comes to mind as another example in many…
It really warms my heart to know that we are not all “insane”
Hrm. It’s “The Shock Doctrine” (Naomi Klein) brought to the next level: From “disaster capitalism” to “disaster imperialism”. No big surprise; apparently it was Lenin who said imperialism was the highest stage of capitalism, but the idea has resonated nonetheless.
Dear The Saker,
Thanks for the analysis. It now explains the Junta wanting “peace keepers” and passed the martial law bill. The US/NATO aren’t very imaginative are they? They really just use the same methods over and over again.
During his Q&A today Putin made it very clear that no war between Russian and Ukraine is possible:
http://tass.ru/en/russia/789807
I bet this is going to fire up the idiots to make sure there is one now. So how is Russia going to stop if the US pushes too far?
Rgds,
Veritas
Quote: “But even more importantly, Milosevic did betray his Bosnian-Serb and Croatian-Serb brothers and impose sanctions on them.”
He betrayed them because he was repeatedly betrayed by “brotherly” Russia and stood alone on this planet. It was just like with many other pro-Russian countries like Iraq (Russia approved UN sanctions), Libya (Russia approved by not voting against UN resolution), Iran, N. Korea, Cuba…
It was Putin who pulled a small military unit from the Pristina airport, just as he pulled a few people from Cuba. Putin betrayed more countries than Yeltsin did. After all Putin undoubtedly betrayed Novorussia. No country can rely on current Russian government.
Putin became Prime Minister on August 9, 1999, after the Pristina incident, during which General Jackson told General Wesley Clark, “I am not going to start WW3 for you, sir.”
The Russians spread throughout Kosovo.The Serbs needed the Russians to protect them, in their villages, not at the airport.
I think Mr. Saker is leaving aside another key difference between the Kiev regime and Croatia back a few years: While I expect the Croatian economy was poor, I never heard that it was actually imploding. The scenario described depends on martial law to be sufficient to hold the regime together for years. I have very serious doubts of that working.
The thing is that the economy is in such dire and deteriorating straits that the whole country (outside the Donbass, where actually I don’t really know how the economy is doing–not so good there either, but with a lot more “pulling together” I suspect) is basically falling apart. At some point, the government aren’t going to be able to pay the soldiers, and unpaid soldiers aren’t so great at suppressing riots; they may start a few of their own. And when there’s no food, no heat, no work, and no legitimacy, it can take a lot of soldiers to keep people down. The only organized force left in the country may be Kolomoisky’s, and I don’t think he or his goons have the mentality you need for holding a country together.
And the crisis goes beyond the economic. The Americans may try to hold the situation together by throwing money at it, but first, they have been reluctant to really go all out in doing so, and second, the political actors they depend on both on the inside and from the US side are all looters on side so long as they get a free hand doing kleptocracy, so no matter how much money they throw it is likely to disappear with little trace on the local reality.
Overall, by the time the Americans could train the Kiev troops into a serious force, the regime would either be gone or spending all its energy suppressing internal dissent. Stalling for time is likely to benefit the Donbass a lot more than the Kiev regime.
USAF in operation Storm? This is funny,very funny…and you consider yourself a reliable blogger?
We kicked chetnik ass cuz we were fighting in our country…against abysmal bloodsuckers and slaughterers. Every soldier that had family on parts of so called RSK killed or expelled(if they were lucky) had huge motive to set his part of country free of terrorists.
And now they are whining about their loss. you lost then,watch out for shiptars neighbours,you might get your ass kicked like in Kosovo(and then,Saker,you could see what USAF airstrikes look like).
Oh dear, I guess a differing opinion would not be welcome at all as it appears that you have monopoly on the truth.
I wish it were that simple as you obviously believe!
Referring to Serbian civilians as Chetniks is the same as referring to Croatian civilians as Ustashe.
Try to overcome this sweeping simplification as it will open new horizons of your worldview.
US-airstrikes with that ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ei9oa5d2oNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05FnUjnJOCU
The US has no modern fighter jets anymore.
Croats get upset they get referred to as “ustasa” but it’s ok for them to call us “bloodsuckers and slaughterers
You all agree on everything else, until you find out where the other is from. Think about what that means. Serbia reconciliation project starting soon on this blog, please stick around for it.
genetics says that you are Serb. Deal with it….
quote “the US-Ukie oh-so-subtle plan appears to be very similar to the “Croatian variant”: buy enough time to prepare for a massive attack and then crush the “separatists””
so why does Russia always surrender before even first victory by not pushing with the advantage like in novorussian army victory one and two and also by not supporting yemen youthis which would have weakened Americans in middle east.
Saudis who are proxies and stooge slave rather of English parasites got new lease of life with Russian action in UN.
before that witch clinton comes to the helm it was in russian interest to mortally weaken the angloamerican machinary of war militarily and through sabotage.But
russia does exxxxcatly opposite.
and gives time to the anglo enemies to attack next time
i wonder if real war with russian starts-the russians will fight then after some minor victory will call for ceasefire instead of pressing with advantage and then give back initiative to the enemies who really know how to take advantage of timing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Army
“Although Croatia acquired the S-300 long-range surface-to-air missile system in 1994, and demonstrated some of its parts on the 1995 military parade, it is believed that the system was never fully completed and operational although the training of crews was sought as late as 1998. Some sources claim that the weapon was subsequently handed-over to the USA or Israel in 2002-2004. However, officials still claim that the system is stored somewhere in Croatia.”
That is why some people think there was no-fly zone endorced by USAF.
http://www.nato.hr/Media/Default/BlogPost/pocetna/s-300-parada-jarun-1995.jpg
A few points.
1. The day of the air-force is outdated and obsolete. The air force-jets are only good against an enemy that is with 1950s tech like Iraq, Afgan, Yemen etc.. Against a formidable foe it will be wiped out within a few sorties. The militias of Donbass showed this as they more less wiped out the UA airforce ( which had comparable jets to what the USA has)
2. The USA will not fight a war against a formidable foe. One thing is for sure, Americans will never fight in mass in any foreign war against a real enemy where they die. Remember them talking of sending ground troops to Serbia. Said would be mass casualties so decided to bomb the country to shit. Wouldn’t even send ground troops to Serbia.
Also, if one were a moral philosopher, how moral is it to fight mostly against civilians by bombing infrastructure, thus starving them, cutting off water, making hospitals not work (many die thus), etc… seems the only moral fight would be soilders against soilders leaving civilians out. I mean if a mortal enemy and it was fight to death then could justify that but America was not threatened when bombed Germany, Japan, Iraq, Serbia, etc…
When is an avalanche an avalanche?
http://atimes.com/2015/04/omg-the-u-s-tries-to-put-its-pacific-trade-pact-on-the-fast-track/
http://www.globalresearch.ca/huge-trouble-is-percolating-just-under-the-surface-of-the-global-economy/5443190
The Invasion of Serbian Krajina
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/elich/krajina.html
How Germany paved the way to the Kosovo War · By Matthias Küntzel.
http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/germany-and-the-kosovo
The Invasion of Serbian Krajina
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/elich/krajina.html
How Germany paved the way to the Kosovo War · By Matthias Küntzel
http://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/germany-and-the-kosovo
A website hosted in the NATO domain is being used to systematically organise the assasination of opposition politicians and journalists in the Ukraine. Their names and addresses are published one, day, the next day they are assasinated and then a tweet is posted congratulating the assassin. See the report here http://slavyangrad.org/…/murder-of-oles-buzina-an-act-of-i…/ from lending tacit support to neo-Nazis in Ukraine, Nato has now moved to deliberately organising a Nazi reign of terror against opponents. Time for SNP to reconsider their policy of supporting NATO.
Blogs/websites are often used as dead drop boxes.
Is it a time to be sucked on country pleasures childishly?
“Time for SNP to reconsider their policy of supporting NATO.”
If it is no longer a function of conjuncture or formation, given your facility is it not time to venture into publication of the pp variety?
Sorry that URL got mangled http://slavyangrad.org/2015/04/17/murder-of-oles-buzina-an-act-of-intimidation-by-nato/
Some of the “issues” the opponents are presently considering.
1. https://www.academia.edu/11945382/The_Top_10_Online_Myths_overcome_by_the_ISIS_Program?
2. https://www.academia.edu/9079508/The_American_Failure_behind_Grand_Strategic_Cultures_and_Modern_Conflict?
3. https://www.academia.edu/11927097/Applied_Mathematics_and_Econometrics_Undergraduate_Honors_Thesis_ARE_THE_PARAMETERS_IN_FUNDAMENTAL_FACTOR_MODELS_TIME-INVARIANT?
There are contradictions within and between these papers.
In number 3 there is a recognition that linear models are not fit for purpose.
The data set is taken from the “markets” but may be subject to greater application.
“Intelligence communities” are not wholly immune to the ideological and organisational norms of their societies, and hence it is likely that practice will reflect the Emperors New Clothes and the procession will move on.
It is probable however that when added to other data it is indicative of greater oscillation amongst the opponents.
Return to the future?
http://atimes.com/2015/04/bloomberg-blackout-teleports-traders-back-to-the-80s/
Running faster to stay still?
http://rt.com/business/250497-obama-economy-china-trade/
When and why did the holocaust mutate into the shoah?
Must read.Interview with Igor Strelkov (The russian heroe who saved Donbass from Kiev Nazi)
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/2015/04/17/
” Igor Strelkov (The russian heroe who saved Donbass from Kiev Nazi)”
Perhaps Mr. Strelkov would be surprised at the role you assign to him.
Why April 18, 2015 at 10:31 am UTC?
“Byzantine” was never used for a name of Eastern Roman Empire. That name appeared in 16th century, it was created by Catholics, and was used since….Fake name from fake history made by Westerner “Historians”..
Also, “Bosniaks”, a name for Serbs of Islamic religion was created by Austro-Hungarians.
Serbs of Catholic religion, who are majority in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Slavonia, are calling themselves “Croats”.
O tempora o mores.Putin Says Once Invited Ex-German Chancellor Schroeder to Banya and It Burnt to Ground.Banya with the butcher of Serbs.
FEBRUARY 2, 1914: RUSSIAN TSAR VOWS “WE SHALL DO EVERYTHING” FOR SERBIA
tsar nikolaj ii romanov
“Greet the King for me and tell him, ‘For Serbia we shall do everything.’” Although neither man could know it at the time, Tsar Nicholas II’s parting words to Serbian Prime Minister Nikola Pašić on February 2, 1914, with a message for Serbia’s King Peter, foreshadowed the massive sacrifice Russia was about to make on behalf of her Slavic cousins exactly six months later
there is one factor youve missed in this analysis though http://childvictimsofwar.org.uk/get-informed/uranium-weapons/ which is what is a nuclear weapon, nuclear weapons were later used on serbia by NATO have been used extensivly in iraq and afghanistan the thing is bunker busters dont count as a nuke even though they are a uranium warhead with a high explosive charge inside designed to cause not partial aresolisation like a atom bomb but 100% airisolisation as they dont fission the uranium it dosnt show up on siesmographs to much but the radiation component was always the worst it about nukes read this artical if you have time it may change what you think they plan to do in donbass, i fear greatly that they will supply kiev with some of these dirty bombs and as the world hasnt raised much fuss about it up till now they may well get away with it.
fallujah for eg “An epidemiological study made in Fallujah shows a disturbing increase in cancers, leukaemia, severe birth deformities and a change in the sex-ratio, with a decrease in the number of boys being born. The conclusion was that something used in the war had created a serious mutagenic effect, worse than the studies on the atomic bomb survivors of Hisroshima and Nagasaki.” -“A further study shows that “since 2003, congenital malformations have increased to account for 15% of all births in Fallujah, Iraq. Congenital heart defects have the highest incidence, followed by neural tube defects.” It concludes that “the high prevalence of birth defects in Fallujah is impairing the population’s health and its capacity to care for the surviving children. These defects could be due to environmental contaminants which are known components of modern weaponry.”
and its not just depleted uranium they are finding enriched uranium in people all over iraq, afghanistan and any were america has droped ” bunker busters” (AKA dirty bombs)
“After the bombing of Afghanistan in 2002, a team from the Uranium Medical Research Center in Canada, took urine samples from civilians suffering symptoms of ‘fatigue, fever, musculoskeletal neurological alterations, headaches and respiratory impairment’. Soil and water samples were also taken from the bombed sites. The mass spectrometry results showed no DU, but high levels of un-depleted uranium, 100 times that of the normal range. 7 residents of Kabul were also contaminated with U-236 which meant that although the uranium had a similar isotopic ratio to natural uranium, it could not have come from a natural source.”
they never realy intended to hold onto iraq or afganistan either, who wants to live somewere that without outside dna your going to run out of viable genetic matches within 5 generations. if you have geneticly arranged births.
in america they recently delared one of there test ranges a national sacrifice zone because they couldnt afford to clean it up/couldnt be done and not even national parks wanted to touch it. http://mondediplo.com/2002/03/03uranium .
anyways read these articals if your not aware that MOST bUNKER bUSTERS CONTAIN URANIUM, 100s of kgs in some models some models obviously contain enriched uranium also from the isotopes found in exposed civillians that reported with radiation sickness then READ the LINKS :P
These Serbian answers on this topic has became typical example of Serbian imperialistic ideology. Everyone who reads all of this what Serbians write, can clearly see what Serbian nationalism and imperialism is. And reason for Balkan wars in nineties.
Everything in Balkan is Serbian. Everything belongs to Serbians. All lands are Serbian. All other peoples does not exist, they all came from air all were made up from Vatican, Tito, Germany, America …
Serbians everywhere, Serbia everywhere. Where is one Serbian grave, it is Serbia there.
This Serbian nationalistic lunacy caused all wars on Balkan in 1990’s. Today, Serbs are in conflict with ALL OTHER BALKAN PEOPLES.
They started all wars. And today they blame everyone else for what they did. And they lie, lie and lie. They say that there is not any Great Serbia as others accuse them. Of course. Because, all Balkan belongs to them so it is all naturally Serbia, not Great Serbia.
Everything they write here is lie or half-truth. When they talk about wars they talk only about Croatian military operation Storm 1995, but rarely about fact that wars started in 1991 even maybe 1990. They used Yugoslav Army with predominantly Serbian military officer structure and attacked their neighbours and countrymen who they were lived together until that day. And who were unarmed.
Serbs were strongest in the beginning and committed many, bloody crimes. Of course, they seized some lands and did mercilessly ethnic cleansing. Killing, raping, destroying catholic churches and mosques.
And after all, war luck turned against them and they lost and now blame everyone else and it is immoral. Of course that some their civilians suffered unfortunately it was impossible to avoid.
Any comparisons between Ukrainian situation with Balkan wars from nineties is nonsense. Situation is absolutely different.
Operation STORM was done after 4 YEARS od negotiations with Serbia and Serbian nationalist rebels from Croatia. It is truth that West gave green light after four years of negotiations and embargo to weapon trade imposed to Croatia. They let Croatian army to do that because it was clear that negotiate with Serbs was fruitless and at the same time Serbs were all time attacking Bosniak-held enclave Bihac in Bosnian Krajina or West Bosnia with more than 40 000 Bosniak people surrounded in extreme difficult situation. It was great danger that if that enclave was occupied by Serbian Army and paramilitary, that great massacre would follow like in Srebrenica.
West knew that Serbs are not to be trusted after all what they did, and nobody wanted reprise of Srebrenica and similar situations, and that reprise would be much bloodier than everything before.
Then when Serbs refused to stop attacking Bihac, and refused to accept so called PLAN Z-4 that offered great autonomy to Serbs in Croatia, practically one step to independence, nothing else remained on the table but military action of Croatian Army.
Plan Z-4 was made by US with wide participation of Russia and was to bi signed in Russian embassy in Zagreb. Serbs refused and if anyone is to blame it is them and nobody else.
Also, it is not true that local Serbs rebels in Croatia gave their weaponry to UN. It is lie. They have all their weapons all the time.
Also, it is big lie that NATO air and rocket forces helped to Croatian Army with attacks on some Serbian positions. It is not true.
So, Serbs started those wars with intention to create Great Serbia, they started ethnic cleansing and terror, they lost in the end and it is highly immoral when they blame anyone for their disaster which ended with NATO bombing of Serbia.
They can only blame themselves and nobody else.
Is it the Serbian fault that you Croats burned muslim civilians alive in their homes in Ahnici?
These Serbian answers on this topic has became typical example of Serbian imperialistic ideology. Everyone who reads all of this what Serbians write, can clearly see what Serbian nationalism and imperialism is. And reason for Balkan wars in nineties.
Everything in Balkan is Serbian. Everything belongs to Serbians. All lands are Serbian. All other peoples does not exist, they all came from air all were made up from Vatican, Tito, Germany, America …
Serbians everywhere, Serbia everywhere. Where is one Serbian grave, it is Serbia there.
This Serbian nationalistic lunacy caused all wars on Balkan in 1990’s. Today, Serbs are in conflict with ALL OTHER BALKAN PEOPLES.
They started all wars. And today they blame everyone else for what they did. And they lie, lie and lie. They say that there is not any Great Serbia as others accuse them. Of course. Because, all Balkan belongs to them so it is all naturally Serbia, not Great Serbia.
Everything they write here is lie or half-truth. When they talk about wars they talk only about Croatian military operation Storm 1995, but rarely about fact that wars started in 1991 even maybe 1990. They used Yugoslav Army with predominantly Serbian military officer structure and attacked their neighbours and countrymen who they were lived together until that day. And who were unarmed.
Serbs were strongest in the beginning and committed many, bloody crimes. Of course, they seized some lands and did mercilessly ethnic cleansing. Killing, raping, destroying catholic churches and mosques.
And after all, war luck turned against them and they lost and now blame everyone else and it is immoral. Of course that some their civilians suffered unfortunately it was impossible to avoid.
Any comparisons between Ukrainian situation with Balkan wars from nineties is nonsense. Situation is absolutely different.
Operation STORM was done after 4 YEARS od negotiations with Serbia and Serbian nationalist rebels from Croatia. It is truth that West gave green light after four years of negotiations and embargo to weapon trade imposed to Croatia. They let Croatian army to do that because it was clear that negotiate with Serbs was fruitless and at the same time Serbs were all time attacking Bosniak-held enclave Bihac in Bosnian Krajina or West Bosnia with more than 40 000 Bosniak people surrounded in extreme difficult situation. It was great danger that if that enclave was occupied by Serbian Army and paramilitary, that great massacre would follow like in Srebrenica.
West knew that Serbs are not to be trusted after all what they did, and nobody wanted reprise of Srebrenica and similar situations, and that reprise would be much bloodier than everything before.
Then when Serbs refused to stop attacking Bihac, and refused to accept so called PLAN Z-4 that offered great autonomy to Serbs in Croatia, practically one step to independence, nothing else remained on the table but military action of Croatian Army.
Plan Z-4 was made by US with wide participation of Russia and was to bi signed in Russian embassy in Zagreb. Serbs refused and if anyone is to blame it is them and nobody else.
Also, it is not true that local Serbs rebels in Croatia gave their weaponry to UN. It is lie. They have all their weapons all the time.
Also, it is big lie that NATO air and rocket forces helped to Croatian Army with attacks on some Serbian positions. It is not true.
So, Serbs started those wars with intention to create Great Serbia, they started ethnic cleansing and terror, they lost in the end and it is highly immoral when they blame anyone for their disaster which ended with NATO bombing of Serbia.
They can only blame themselves and nobody else.
as a Croat who was a child at the time of war i didnt understand much of what was going on. i didnt understand why Serbs were attacking us, i didnt understand why they bombed my house and why they were killing everyone in Vukovar and why they kept attacking us… few years later i just knew i felt relief when they were defeated. then few more years later i learned about history, true or false, but i learned and learned abot Miloševićs plan to cut Croatia up and leave it as it was in centuries earlier, during Turkish invasion of Europe. Thank you Bosnian Croat for clarifiying to others the objective view of what happened. no one denies it here. it was as it was. but no Serb should ever even dare to think themselves victims. your leaders made your bed while whistling to tunes at that time and they had to lie in it while paying the piper later. i do not have anything against serbian people, i only regret they had such terrible leadership to start something so vile. i regret that no peacfull solution was found because no one needed what came and much was lost on both sides. still, i reiterate, we the Croats did not want it, we did not start it but we surely wouldnt go silently in the serbian leaderships night. Ustashe as Siniša claims were indeed a regime that was nzi in nature and origin and they did terrible things as well and most people here do not condone it. however, as everywhere in the world you have the extreme right oriented people who do and that cant be helped. instead of accusing Croats of elebrating Storm, why not say what is one of your pearls of former politicans doing nowadays in serbia? burning croatian flag in city squares and spewing Četnik propaganda? why not brag about that or say that out loud? politicians are corrupt, 90% of the time. but dont be a blind sheep to supot them in their actions and view points. what was done was done. teach your kids never to do it again as we all must ours. no war is good. leave it at that.
how convenient: “but no Serb should ever even dare to think themselves victims.”
…and Croat genocide against Serbs during ww2, with about 1 million Serbs savagely murdered by Croat Clero-Fascists Ustasha in various horrific ways is now pronounced taboo, and something that should not be mentioned…similar to previous 70 years under Croat Communist Dictatorship!
For 70 years that truth was being suppressed.
No more!
p.s. genetics says that you are Serb. Deal with it….
Rubish!!!!
as a Croat who was a child at the time of war i didnt understand much of what was going on. i didnt understand why Serbs were attacking us, i didnt understand why they bombed my house and why they were killing everyone in Vukovar and why they kept attacking us… few years later i just knew i felt relief when they were defeated. then few more years later i learned about history, true or false, but i learned and learned abot Miloševićs plan to cut Croatia up and leave it as it was in centuries earlier, during Turkish invasion of Europe. Thank you Bosnian Croat for clarifiying to others the objective view of what happened. no one denies it here. it was as it was. but no Serb should ever even dare to think themselves victims. your leaders made your bed while whistling to tunes at that time and they had to lie in it while paying the piper later. i do not have anything against serbian people, i only regret they had such terrible leadership to start something so vile. i regret that no peacfull solution was found because no one needed what came and much was lost on both sides. still, i reiterate, we the Croats did not want it, we did not start it but we surely wouldnt go silently in the serbian leaderships night. Ustashe as Siniša claims were indeed a regime that was nzi in nature and origin and they did terrible things as well and most people here do not condone it. however, as everywhere in the world you have the extreme right oriented people who do and that cant be helped. instead of accusing Croats of elebrating Storm, why not say what is one of your pearls of former politicans doing nowadays in serbia? burning croatian flag in city squares and spewing Četnik propaganda? why not brag about that or say that out loud? politicians are corrupt, 90% of the time. but dont be a blind sheep to supot them in their actions and view points. what was done was done. teach your kids never to do it again as we all must ours. no war is good. leave it at that.
Im very sorry that this analisys dear The Saker, is totaly wrong, unrealistic, full of information that u digged out from some tv station! Here are people who lived during the NOT CIVIL WAR in Croatia! Why some “analists” have the urge to write about someone elses past? And make wrong ideas about presence? Well, great Job Mr Saker…do your homework better next time!
The last issue of Time Magazine in the USA maintained that Putin is the man of the year. If ever a message from America came out from this decision, looks like respect for the leader who says “No!” to Washington and does not back down. To me that feels like a “No!” to Empire. It will to the movers and shakers in Washington too. Bush 11 midnight signed into 137 new war laws, no-one but a few know:such the 6 or 8 vast tracks of land to lock up dissenters inside for as long as it takes to love the endless wars and the dragooned empire. Starvation could be ordered too…like Poroshenko ordered on Donbas, or the pitiful remains of what is left of it. Angela seems not to notice alot! Wonder if she cares?
Saker, do you see similarities between Croatian krajinas and demilitarizationed zones in Shirokino, Gorlovka and Donetsk airport?
https://news.mail.ru/inworld/ukraine/politics/21773332/
First of all – historically, something like Serbian Krajina has never existed in history. During the wars in nineties, Serbian nationalists led with Milosevic regime using all weaponry effectives they inherited from former Yugoslav Army, they occupied some areas in Croatia settled with significant percentage of ethnic Serbs, and called them SERBIAN KRAINA.
They tried to claim those areas as ethnically Serbian, despite the facts that those areas were not ethnically pure Serbian, but there were also Croats and some other ethnic groups and nationalities there, in some areas Hungarians for example.
To claim those lands as exclusively Serbian property, and to give some historical excuse to those claims, they used as argument one historical entity from Ottoman and Austro-Hungarian past.
It was HRVATSKA VOJNA KRAINA or CROATIAN MILITARY FRONTIER.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_Military_Frontier
Words KRAINA and UKRAINA have similar roots and meanings but Kraina does not mean nationality and Ukraina doses. We also have Bosnian Kraina in Bosnia and Herzegovina. KRAINA means some region along some borderline with certain foreign antagonistic military power.
So those foreign powers gone long time ago but names remained.
Croatian Military Frontier was entity created by Austrian Emperor and Government in Wienna, because, Croatia was occupied by Austrian Empire during those times. It was area along the Ottoman border, (today border between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina), and territory under strict military rule directly from Military Headquarters of Austrian Army,, because of constant attack from Ottoman Turks from other side of borderline.
People living in that area was under special military obligation all the time, and during the time specific mentality of warriors was developed during the existence of Hrvatska Voina Kraina or Croatian Military Frontier.
Ethnic and religious structure of People in Kraina was mixed, there were Catholics and Ortodoxes (later Croats and Serbs) living together, but that area was NEVER ethnically pure or clean.
Serbs settled those areas as refugees from Ottoman empire. So those lands never belonged to any Serbian state, kingdom or similar state entity.
Novorussia with Donbass was territory liberated from Ottoman Turks by Russian Empire, and belonged to Russia until one day Lenin for some reason decided to give it to Soviet Ukraine in Year 1921.. Russia settled Russians and Ukrainians there, considering them as the same people.
So, comparison between freedom fight of Novorussian people in Donbass against Kiev so-called Government put in power by USA and NATO, and Serb nationalists in Croatia backed from Belgrade in their attempt to create Great Serbia, in my opinion is insult for Donbass people.
And one more thing – when they tried to create Great Serbia and to steal lands that do ot belong to them, Serbian nationalists always find excuse in Ustasha regime from WWII, and atrocities they committed.
We have to say that Ustasha regime was established by German Nazis and never had any influence in Croatian people.
Second, we had in former Yugoslavia partisan movement with participation of all nationalities, and when Serbian nationalists claim that that partisan movement was ethnically pure Serbian, it is one more Serbian lie.
In 1945, victorious PArtisan commited heavy punishment to all Ustashas that come under partisan hand. Tens of thousand ustashas and other quislings were executed, guilty or not guilty.
It was severe punishment and we thought was enough for crimes they commited, until one day Serbian nationalist come to power, and claimed to turn Yugoslavia under Serbian domination or to create Great Serbia, finding excuse in Ustasha regime and also refusing Tito’s heritage blaiming even him as anti-Serbian character.
Also, their lunatic propaganda increased number of ustasha atrocities ten times or even more, and that way they during the time before the war, during the war and until today, they create atmosphere of more hatred and possible revenge feelings for future.
They blame Croats for ustasha nostalgia, but they do not see themselves. Unfortunatelly, it is true that such tendency exist in Croatian society, but they never came to power and never been predominantly strong to endanger stablility in Croatia, although we have to admit that they are very aggressive and noisy and economic very bad situation is fertile for such things.
But, hopefully, they will lose their ground, and current President condemned such tendencies and also Croatian Ex-President Stipe Mesic in his interview two days ago condemned western politicians for their behaviour towards Russia and Victory DAy and ignorance about nazis in Baltic State.
I only regret the fact that Croatia is today USA and NATO puppet and forced to be against Russia contrary to its own interest. Also, our politic elite is so servile to NATO and West, it is disgusting.
I do not mind if Russians and Serbs are friends and Ortodox brothers or whatever, but I think that Russians have to hear and know also what Croats have to say.
To see other side of coin.
They saw other side of coin when NDH sent 369 Croatian reinforced infantry regiment to fight against them at Stalingrad during WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/369th_Croatian_Reinforced_Infantry_Regiment_(Wehrmacht)
I fear that no amount of water muddying will help. Any real reconciliation is quite impossible until current state of Croatia publicly denounce Ante Pavelic and NDH state. And we both know that is not possible at the foreseeable future.
But you got one thing right. Those areas were never ethnically pure. Rest…is left
I already said that one part of Croatians were collaborating with Germans, especially from rural and poor areas. And one unit was send to Stalingrad.
It is shame but first of all, which occupied nation did not have quislings. Serbia also had collaborators.
Croatian puppet state was established by Germans. In some other countries their legal governments collaborated. Finland, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary
And how many took part in invasion on Russia. There were even French and Spanish divisions. Even Russians had their own collaborators, Vlasov and his army.
To me problem is that Croatia is now puppet state again, with no sovereinity. And has to take anti-Russian stance again. But this time is entire Europe in anti – russian coalition.
Yes tendencies toward historical revisionism exist today in Croatia as well. Ustasha regime and glorification and nostalgia are officially banned in Croatia but it is not enough.
But to achieve reconciliation is responsibility not only on Croatia side. Serbs also started even first with historical revisionism.
And also, any normalisation in ex-Yugoslavia is impossible because Serbs have to stop their illegal territorial pretensions toward lands that don not belong to them and never have belonged.
And we both know that is not possible at the foreseeable future
But this is topic about Russia.
It s very important Russia to survive this aggression. I am not saying this for some pan-slavic reason or something like that, because I do not believe in such illusions. But multipolar world is only possible positive future for this world. If America with help of its puppets succeeds to achieve absolute hegemony an global dictatorship, it would be historical disaster.
And only Russia and China can stop them.
Military Frontier existed as part of the Austro Hungary.
Serbs were settled there since at least after Bosnia fell to Ottoman Turks mid 15th century; before then Serbs were autochtonous population in that region.
Serbs were granted full privileges of the constitutional people within the Austrian Empire as they served in the military standing at the border with the Ottoman Empire.
Thus, this region known as Krajina never, I repeat never, was part of Croatian state as this state was non existant as an independent entity until it seceded from Federal Yugoslavia.
When Croatia seceded it broke the existing Constitution of the former country and overnight the Federal Army became “an aggressor force” according to those who seceded illigally.
When Federal Army tried to pull out there were instances that the young conscripts were slaughtered by the “unarmed, defenseless” defenders of the secession as in Sarajevo and Slovenia etc.
Serbs represented 45% of the population of the Federal Yugoslavia and probably were in similar numbers within the Army or any other institution on Federal level as that would be equal distribution of the numbers.
As for this:
” I only regret the fact that Croatia is today USA and NATO puppet and forced to be against Russia contrary to its own interest. Also, our politic elite is so servile to NATO and West, it is disgusting.”
Croatia would have never become an independent state had it not been for USA and NATO, so some gratitude and appreciation should be in order from the Croat side where it is due.
Though, Croats are not that profuse on gratitude for those who extend a brotherly/friendly hand – what comes to mind is flipping over to the winner’s side after the WWI by unifying with the Serbs into south slav kingdom; and after WWII enjoying the same country with their victims, the Serbs, who perished in enormous numbers within the Independent State of Croatia, a fascist state if ever there was one. Croats got away again.
Croats have never been made to properly acknowledge and assume responsibility for what was done in their name…so, not having learnt from history it was bound to be repeated….
“I do not mind if Russians and Serbs are friends and Ortodox brothers or whatever, but I think that Russians have to hear and know also what Croats have to say.”
Very open minded to be granted the permission. Thank you for this magnanimous gesture. As for hearing what Croats have to say – the Russians are listening right now from the Croat Ustashe volunteers in Ukraine fighting with the Azov batallion types and killing the Russians again as they have previoulsy done during WWII.
Enough said.
Yet another serbian nationalistic piece.
Military Frontier full name was Croatian Military Frontier – Hrvatska Vojna Kraina.
Serbs were settled as refuges from Ottoman Empire. Before Ottoman Empire there were not significant number od any Serbs in that region.
Also, there were not only Serbs standing at the border with Ottoman Empire but all people I that region.
Also, Serbs were not even called Serbs but Vlach – Vlasi. There were given rights from Austrian Emperor because they were new refugees settled in region of Military Frontier and received obligation to serve as border guards. That document is known as STATUTA WALLACHORUM or VLACH STATUTE. Nobody mentioned any Serbs then. But we today understand that Ortodox population in nd of 19. century become Serbs when modern nations were formed.
How much in common modern Serbs have with Vlach population from that time is open question. But, OK, today their descendants are Serbs.
All Austrian statistics from that time have only people with religious identity. And in the Croatia part of Frontier there was slightly Catholic (Croat) majority, but in the Banat part – Today Serbia, it was Ortodox (Serb) majority.
So people were mixed, and Serbian nationalistic claims for those lands as exclusively Serbian is stupid nonsense and historical falsification.
Also, to say that these lands were never part of any Croatian state is really funny. They were taken under separate military rule in 16 of century and returned under Croatia in 19. of Century, of course, Croatia was an autonomy under Habsburg power. .
And one heavy historical fact – Serbia has NEVER CROSSED DRINA RIVER in all history. So, not only Croatian lands, but also 90% of Bosnia and Herzegovina never belonged to any Serbian state or kingdom or whatever. Except one part of Eastern Herzegovina for some 150 years in Middle Age.
And one comment on that how Serbs brotherly let Croats unite with them after First World War.
Yes, we wanted to unite with Serbs in 1918. And not only Croats, but all other South Slavs, We recognised Serbian main role and that they wanted to be leading nation, and we accepted their King. Otherwise Croatia would be lost, it is true. We expected some normal life and development because we had enough of Germans, Italians and Hungarians.
But then happened that brotherly Serbs became worse and more brutal occupiers than Germans, Austrians or Italians. Nobody needs such liberation.
And all other Yugoslav nationalities share our opinion. After 23 years of Serbian hegemony, every nation in Yugoslavia was happy to get rid of hat kingdom, serbian rule and serbian hegemony. That was reason that fall of Kingdom of Yugoslavia was celebrated in all non – Serbia regions of Yugoslavia. Not arrival of Germans, but fall of tyranny.
Croatian volunteers in Azov Battalion, I heard that there are eight or ten of tem. Illiterate stupids, who have no idea who are they fighting for. Croatian media are under control of mainstream in the West and brainwashing crap, and no wonder when such idiots believe in what those media say.
I read interview with their leader, that guy is lot in the space. Anyway, nobody is going to cry when they pay price of their idiocy. Except their families, maybe.
And, about responsibility of Croat for WWII, Croats were divided on two opposite sides. Those who were on winning side have no such responsibilities. They participated in great victory.
Those who lost and who belonged to nazi collaborators, paid heavy price. That price is very visible in all those mass graves in Slovenia, where they were caught in May 1945 trying to escape to West. And not only Croatian quislings, Serbs and other Yugoslav peoples also had their Quislings who served nazi Germany and fascist Italy.
But it was really shocking and interesting lesson for all other Yugoslav nationalities when Serbs suddenly started nationalist hysteria in late eighties when Milosevic took power, with bloodthirsty propaganda and threating to others. And violent demands for redrawing Yugoslav constitution and republic borderlines.
Option for independence was not easy decision, we all knew that Yugoslavia would stop existing, but at that time was only option for those who wanted to save themselves from Serbian nationalist lunacy, very similar to today Ukrainian lunacy. And all other republics and nationalities opted for independence, not only Croats.
ENOUGH SAID. Yes, indeed.
“Byzantine” was never used for a name of Eastern Roman Empire. That name appeared in 16th century, it was created by Catholics, and was used since….Fake name from fake history made by Westerner “Historians”..
Also, “Bosniaks”, a name for Serbs of Islamic religion was created by Austro-Hungarians.
Serbs of Catholic religion, who are majority in Dalmatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina and Slavonia, are calling themselves “Croats”.
give an evidence of Croat state prior to NDH. There was none, but you can pay ViaSat History to create some fake history for you, again….as they did with “Croat Kings” series – buahahahahaaa…lmao
about Vlachs, etc…. Harvard scientist Anatole Klyosov proved by DNA analysis and genealogy, that people living in Slavonia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Dalmatia, Serbia are predominantly Serbs, who were descendants of Vinca Culture Peoples (ancient Slavs – Serbs!), living around Danube and in Balkans 12.000 years in the past. Actually, they were ORIGINAL EUROPEANS. From there Slavs went to North, East and South. Funny enough, the same DNA can be found in Northern Germany, Denmark and Southern Sweden in massive numbers (60% and more of todays population).
It is indeed very sad, how propaganda works. Croatians were fighting very hard during the WW II, against Italian fascist, Germans and Nazi puppet state NDH. The resistance was massive among the population, one of the biggest in Europe. Seems quite interesting how and why this aspect of Croatian history is getting deliberately pushed aside.
@Anonymous
Thank you. Very accurate and good analysis of the situation regarding “Krajina” in Croatia.
@Dragan
Serbia had their Hitler’s collaborationist fighting for them during Second World War just as Croatia had.
@veridiana
Yes, Serbia did have collaborators. But let us compare Draza Mihajlovic with Ante Pavelic.
Draza Mihajlovic was wanted by the Germans throughout the WWII. He was declared collaborator only after the war. And it happend by Tito. Victor of the civil war on these territories which these two fought.
Ante Pavelic was guest at Hitlers party’s. Hitler created NDH at the behest of Vatican. Which Vatican kindly repaid by saving Nazi’s after the war using Rat channels. Ante Pavelic and Ustasha used state support in mass killings.
War crimes commited by the Serbs? Yes. Genocide? No. For the genocide to happen you need state support and in those times only Croatia had a state-NDH.
@Dragan
Serbia’s Secret War: Propaganda and the Deceit of History by Philip J. Cohen,David Riesman
http://books.google.hr/books?hl=hr&id=Fz1PW_wnHYMC&q=nedi%C4%87#v=snippet&q=nedi%C4%87&f=false
During the second world war Serbia was in cooperation with Nazi Germany under the leadership of Nedić. Just like Pavelić in Croatia.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_of_the_Military_Commander_in_Serbia
“Of the 16,700 Jewish people in Serbia and the Banat, 15,000 were killed. In total, it is estimated that approximately 80,000 people were killed from 1941 to 1944 in concentration camps in Nedić’s Serbia.[95] Harald Turner, the chief of German military occupation forces in Serbia, declared in August 1942, that the “Jewish question” in Serbia had been “liquidated” and that Serbia was the first country in Europe to be Judenfrei; free of Jews”
My reply is quite large so i posted it on the second page.
@Anonymous
Thank you. Very accurate and good analysis of the situation regarding “Krajina” in Croatia.
@Dragan
Serbia had their Hitler’s collaborationist fighting for them during Second World War just as Croatia had.
@veridiana
Too many factual errors exist in your text and it is futile to engage in their disproving.
As for “Croatia would have never become an independent state had it not been for USA and NATO” I would say, Croatia won despite of NATO, West and East, which were against Croatia at the beginning. I would say Croata would became independent anyway.
“Too many factual errors exist in your text and it is futile to engage in their disproving.”
Please engage in factual errors proving Anonymous.
Hi Saker !
It sounds like joke or a treason. Shoygu wants to withdraw Russian troope from Donbas. What’s the Hell going on.
If so, he must be one of the Fifth Column, enimy insida, isn’t it?
Second, “One of Us”, just joking but for sure One of Them, pure Russian name Fridman, billioner, is told to sell his gas field in the North Sea. Interesting where they , oligarch, got the doug ????????
Vlad avoided answer during his Q&A seccion when he’ll recognizr DNR & LNR. It’s about time or pay consequances. ?Si o No ?
I hope the war will starts a.s.a.p. and Zahar will free more people from the Fashists.
Polaks are waiting too to go for Podolia i Volinia. Go guys, you are good. God and Pobieda is with you.
Polaks and Ruskis are brothers.
Dear Saker,
In my view, the Krajinas settlements were part of a concerted effort on the part of the Serbian authorities to ethnically “cleanse” traditional Croatian territory. Similar to the brutal ethnic cleansing in Palestine, Settlements/Demographics were and still are KEY.
It has never been proven [so far to my satisfaction] that 700,000 Serbs were brutally exterminated by the Croats. Just like it has never been proven that 6 million Jews were gassed [the Auschwitz numbers were legally and undeniably “reduced” 2-? times].
This 700,000 Serb victims “claim” was a counterattack due to Croatian suits against the Serbs for genocide.
And while the UN was “protecting” Serbs from “Croatian attacks”….A UN resolution was passed denying any weapons passing hands to belligerent entities, leaving the Croats defenseless against a Serbia armed to the teeth. Until the USA realized the advantage of surpporting Croatia in its quest for freedom.
Why do we consider it a right of the Donbass citizens to speak Russian? To observe traditional Russian holidays and Eastern Orthodox religion/culture? The Maidan regime called these “lustration laws”.
Why was Serbia insisting on implementing laws regulating/implementing the use of Serbian cyrillic language upon Croatian speaking populations? Negating the Croatians’ right to speak their own traditional language? Why was finance transferred to Serbian banks? And the whole of Croatian society subservient to the Serbs? Why were Catholic churches destroyed and Catholic priests/nuns brutally sacrificed?
Both the Chetniks and the Ustase collaborated with the Nazis. And of course since at least WWII we see the sometimes covert, and sometimes overt hand of the USA, as well as George Soros, CIA [OSS], IMF etc [I am simplifying here as Monsanto and Royal Dutch Shell as well as greedy Europeans— Merkel and Hollande chief among them — play their part as well]. My suspicion is that Hollande and Merkel had a lot to hide in the Debaltsevo and airport cauldron. Chaos is very lucrative for them. Peace is terrible for them.
eg, until the interference by the West, the different factions in the Middle East got along just fine, intermarrying and celebrating holidays together. As far as I am concerned, The Sunni, Shia conflict is a manufactured one first under the label al-Qaeda and now morphed into ISIS, ISIL etc. Forgive me…simplifying here.
Sarajevo was a monstrous siege by Serbians on a civilian population [not the only example] shelling the unarmed civilians just like we see in the Donbass. Greater Serbia was the goal.and from what I have been reading lately, it is my firm belief that Croatia was resisting that form of imperialism, and ethnic genocide, just as the Donbass is resisting now and YES Palestine as well.. Of course, Ustase was the wrong tactic. But I think it is a good thing that the Croats came to the rescue of Muslims. At first the Croats were hailed as Heros, but a few years later they were demonized and convicted as war criminals by the so-called “international community”.
The two sides [Croatia vs Serbs] were split ideologically since the religious split in 1054ad, and the West took advantage of long held grievances, Just as they are doing today in the Middle East and in the Ukraine, while the surrounding ex-Soviet republics are being played using those divisive cards.
Why can’t we learn from history?
In the conflict between Croatia vs Serbia I see propaganda on both sides. However, I believe we need to resist validating any history that has not been proven beyond doubt. I am still needing to read more and research more …. Certainly the Ustase were brutal, but they were answering brutality with brutality.
Brutality seeds more brutality, so I hope and pray that Donbass does not descend into such a trap…Exactly what the Money Powers want. Putin has his hands full working to prevent this. Yes Tito [a Croat] succeeded in creating a Greater Serbia, which was named Jugoslavya, but he was a Bolshevik and he used brutal Bolshevik methods.
I now understand better why my Croatian grandfather, with his family, emigrated from Croatia to the West, just around the time of WWI. They were an intellectual, artistic family, not suited to war. My beautiful aunt, an opera singer in Zagreb Opera, was unable to escape
The Croats and the Serbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUpgUGA2wbo
The above documentary is decidedly pro-Croat and while we can identify some propaganda in this work, it is a very different description of the conflict than we hear from the Serbian side, and just like the USA betrayed the Croats, they also betrayed Milosevic, and eventually will betray Poroshenko and his cohorts. Of course this will be schadenfreud? for me. Even tho I have no Donbass connections.
The end result for me personally, is I am no longer ashamed of my Croatian heritage malgre the Ustase stain upon my mother’s native country.
and dear Saker, please, please refrain from demonizing Croatia with the offensive label “Croatian” attack scenario. I liken that to a “Novarussian attack scenario”.
I am still researching, and if you can provide me with evidence to the contrary of my stated view here, please do so.
thanks for an otherwise informative analysis
Respectfully Christine
why do you lie so much? That number, 700.000 died during WW2 Croat genocide against Serbs is understatement, were you aware of that? That number did not popped out in last 20 or so years, it is a finding of Commision created by Croat Communist leadership in what was known as SFRY. After Commision gave their estimate, Croat Tito buried all later efforts to learn the truth. Caves and holes in the ground with dead Serb civilians throughout Bosnia and Croatia were sealed with concrete! Any mention of Genocide against Serbs was forbidden – because of proclaimed “brotherhood and unity” of all peoples policy of communists.
Also, that estimate was made only for Jasenovac complex of concentration camps. There are still living witnesses in Belgrade who talk of Sava river being filled with corps (Sava runs from Croatia to Serbia and Danube). Those unfortunate people were not taken into account! Just Jasenovac concentration camp complex!!! Almost all survivors of Jasenovac spoke of 1-1,5 million murdered. There was several witnesses who claim that they saw written evidence, an record of murdered people (Croats tried to copy Germans) in Jasenovac, and they claim that there was 900.000 names, in the late 1943.!!!!! Camp was working well into 1945…
Croats were not defenseless, Germans helped them with vast amounts of weapons and ammo from former E. Germany, there was an video evidence of Martin Spegelj arranging weapons to be delivered to Croats, well before any fighting started. Also, Croats took massive amounts of weapons from stashes of JNA (they simply could have not take it all)
Then, you go on with trying to equalise Ustasha and Chetniks. Chetniks collaborated with Italians, in 1941-42 . because Italians wanted to help Serb population defend themselves, sickened with Ustasha bloodthirsty rampage and murders (Dalmatia, Lika,). There are documented evidence of high German and Italian military officers being utterly disgusted with Croat crimes against Serbs. Chetniks were royalists, anti-communists, and some units used to collaborate with Germans to fight communists aka partisans. Also, some Chetnik units took retaliatory actions against Muslims and Croats as a revenge for massacres against Serbs. Nevertheless, it was not Chetniks HQ decision, but decisions of local unit leader, who were fighting guerilla warfare.
About project of “Greater Serbia”. No evidence of that. No witnesses, no documents, nothing…”Greater Serbia” project was imaginary project, an propaganda stunt made to justify everything that was done to Serbs and Serbia.
Like today, when CNN or NYT speaks of “Russian imperialism”, and Baltic and EE countries are screaming that Russia will attack them, etc. It is an lie.
But, let me say something about SFRY. SFRY was created by Communists in Jajce, on AVNOJ conference in 1943. There were representatives from all regions (Slovenia, Bosnia, Croatia, Montenegro), but not one from Serbia. Not a single representative. Why? Because Serbs in Serbia were against Communists! They did not want to be part of it. Serbia wanted its King back in power. But “Allies” dumped Chetniks (royalists) who they were supported up until 1943. and switched their support to Communists! Furthermore, Communists and “Allies” had to organise bombing campaign against Serbia, bombing Belgrade on Easter holiday, Nis, Leskovac, Sjenica, and many more all over Serbia, to FORCE Serbs into CROAT COMMUNIST TYRANNY aka SFR Yugoslavia. Moreover, after entering Serbia, Communists slaughtered thousands of Serbs, prominent citizens, in Belgrade and shipped thousands of youth into Srem Front to die in pointless fights which could not have decide anything…
Since 1945. Sebia was under Croat Communist Dictatorship. Orthodox religious practices were forbidden (“Srpska Slava”) and those who did not obey were arrested. Catholic and islamic religious practices were mildly suppressed, but not forbidden. Serb population, about half of Yugoslavia population, had effective 25% of voting power. That was achieved by drawing borderlines of future Socialist Republics in Jajce (without Serb representatives!) in 1943. and the fact that ONLY Serbia was divided into two autonomous regions, and rest of Serbia. Macedonia, which was a part of Serbia at the beginning of the 20th century became Soc. Republic.
Serbs were heavily oppressed under Croat Communist Dictator Tito’s regime, for 40 years. That story needs more space than available…
p.s. about forcing cyrillic to Croats – what an disgusting lie! in fact, croat latin was forced upon Serbs, and as a result today more Serbs write in latin than in cyrillic, more billboards and newspapers are in latin! That was an result of slow and quiet croatisation of Serbs, which is a main goal of West, so that Serbs became useful idiots and cannon fodder… like Croats.
Just stay burried where you are! Thank God there are many Serbs that I consider friends, which dont share your fanatic ideology and would gladly disagree with you outloud! Stay alone with the handfull of crepes like your self.
From Belgrade with Love!
your friends from Belgrade do not represent majority in Serbia.
by the way I am born and raised in Belgrade, a genuine Belgradian and proud Serb.
All my friends (I believe that I know much more people than you, who are visiting Belgrade, or live here temporarely) are against EU, against NATO, and share the same opinion presented by me in my post.
I am sorry (and glad, on the other hand) that I have to be the one to break it to you…
p.s. A little explanation : Parts of Belgrade are today dominated with new class, eurotrash, anti-Serbs, a group of people who led, what is now obvious, a “colored revolution” in 2000. They are in fact NATO collaborators, they do not care for Serbia or Serbs, they were payed by USA (self admitted) to bring down S. Milosevic. Our governments since 2000. are NATO puppets, taking their opinion and decisions from USA/UK/German Embassies, which they visit daily. There are people called “auto-chauvinists”, Serbs, or partly Serbs, who hate Serbs! Those are the product of Western owned and dominated media in Serbia.
Allow me to shed some light upon this controversial topic.
Ukraine secedes from USSR
Croatia secedes from Yugoslavia
In both cases borders were drawn administratively. Not as they existed before and not according to percentage of population living in those territories. It went more or less smoothly as no one was expecting breakup then. But breakup happened along those lines.
Under the Yugoslav constitution any secession had to be approved by the highest governing body. It did not happen. However,Croatia’s right to independence was supported internationally. USA,Germany and Vatican were among the first to do it. At the same time,that same right was denied to Serbs living in Croatia who wanted to stay in Yugoslavia.
This part is very important! By avoiding that fact, enforcing narrative Ukraine-Yugoslavia/Novorossia-Croatia is possible.However,if we know that,then aforementioned narrative loose traction.
War broke out.
Why? Who initiated it? Why was not possible to give Serbs right to stay in Yugoslavia?
Rest is history. Was Yugoslavia perfect country? No. Are we living better now? I personally don’t think so. And those complaining about vassalage status might agree with me. We in Serbia are also living in vassalage.Were we used? Yes.
We were used since the time of Tito,at least. All of us. If they did’d enforce brutally Brotherhood and Unity narrative and instead dug graves and pits out, we could have avoided the bloodbath of the 90’s. But,since that was not done,and instead water was muddied further, we are here.
Question remains, where we will go from here and will we learn from our mistakes?
For the end, i would like to remind all of us of one irrefutable fact. We are neighboring states. And if we don’t find a way to coexist together,those who instigated 90′ war will do it again.
Whoever want war,may he find it in his home.
@мудријаш
As I said in my post, I see propaganda on both sides of this tragedy. Calling me a liar does not prove your point.
SFRY Sources? Somewhere we can read about this?
Link to Martin Spegel video?
Where is your proof? where is the so-called documented evidence you speak of? Why spew propaganda without furnishing documentation? At least a Link where we can verify what you say.
documented evidence of high German and Italian military officers utterly disgusted with Croat crimes against Serbs?
https://www.google.com/search?q=Chetniks+with+Hitler?Vukovar&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=Gw03Vc_oLraasQSx1YDQAg&ved=0CFcQsAQ&biw=988&bih=453#imgrc=WJ9KjMRwFtzBvM%253A%3Bak7qsi0b-3FXlM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fbosniakandjewishfriendship.files.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F06%252Fserbian-prince-paul-nazi-fascists-collaborators-holocaust.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fbosniakandjewishfriendship.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F07%252F27%252Fdr-josip-pecaric-on-serbian-manipulations-with-jasenovac-camp-victims%252F%3B1343%3B924
Chetniks in Šumadija kill a Partisan through heart extraction:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/15/Chetniks_in_%C5%A0umadija_kill_a_Partisan_through_heart_extraction.jpg/220px-Chetniks_in_%C5%A0umadija_kill_a_Partisan_through_heart_extraction.jpg
Exodus: Vukovar 1991
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyxXDnSgJXw
I am not understanding Vukovar. Some say it was the Serbs who were expelled…others say it was Croats….Need to research this more.
Attack on Dubrovnik, Croatia (a UNESCO World Heritage Site)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sU0JPXUmg44
Attack on Dubrovnik, Croatia (a UNESCO World Heritage Site)
Koljem ustase povoljno-1 ustasa 1e
Uploaded on Dec 8, 2006
Attack on Dubrovnik, Croatia (a UNESCO World Heritage Site)
The ‘Pearl of the Adriatic’, situated on the Dalmatian coast, became an important Mediterranean sea power from the 13th century onwards. Although severely damaged by an earthquake in 1667, Dubrovnik managed to preserve its beautiful Gothic, Renaissance and Baroque churches, monasteries, palaces and fountains. Damaged again in the 1990s by Serbian attack, it is now the focus of a major restoration programme co-ordinated by UNESCO
dubrovnik croatia balkan hrvatska yugoslavia Macedonia Makedonia Makedonija VMRO Skopje Lavovi Serbia Sebija Albania Greek Hellas
Greater Serbia:
http://bosnian83.tripod.com/id3.html
Serbian War Crimes:
http://bosnian83.tripod.com/id5.html
EXCERPT:
“In an exhaustive report to the United Nations, a special Commission of Experts, chaired by Cherif Bassiouni of DePaul University in Chicago, concluded that globally 90 percent of the crimes committed in Bosnia-Herzegovina were the responsibility of Serb extremists, 6 percent by Croat extremists, and 4 percent by Muslim extremists. These conform roughly to an assessment drafted by the American CIA.”
On this site a foto of Chetniks with Nazi officers:
http://mprofaca.cro.net/warcrime.html
As far as Milosevic being a war criminal, I have always believed he was murdered while in his cell at the Hague.
Additionally, the fact that NATO was involved tells us that it stinks. The CIA? Ditto
Which side is lying? Perhaps Both?
Why do the common people allow criminal politicians to incite them to violence? This was orchestrated by politicians who were competing for territory. As I said before. Demographics. How was Palestine stolen? Thru violent ethnic cleansing. What are the Ukros practicing in Donbass? Ethnic Cleansing.
The solution? Don’t play the game. I thank God each and every day that my son did not join the military or the police. He was considering it.
When will men learn that they are just cannon fodder?
Take care
Christine
for starters, link to the video with Martin Spegelj
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AI02tYstUE
Martin Spegelj was high JNA officer, and in this video (I have watched it in 1990 on Serbian TV!) he is arranging weapons delivery to Croatia, one year before Civil War started…
to be continued…
@мудријаш
thank you for the Link to Martin Spegelj. Does not help me at all. If there is a translation into either English or French I would much appreciate it.
Take care
Christine
that is the problem…too little internet sites with documents and evidence, that I can provide, are in english..poor Serb propaganda, I imagine…but I will try to find some…
I would like to clarify what I mean by “playing the game”. Nationalists are fools. Driven by mischievous propaganda, they fool themselves that they are fighting for a “cause”. I would therefore urge men to resist all forms of nationalism and instead concentrate on cooperation and tolerance towards neighbors. However….
Each and every man who is living under attack and oppression/suppression is duty bound to protect his home and family.
This is where we find the Palestinians, the Novorussians, and Croatia, Bosniacs…..They have no choice. In such a situation, should my own son be confronted likewise….I would urge him to defend his homeland.
Take care,
Christine
Christine,i posted answers for you and others.
I have noticed that you did not mention Serbs, among Croats or Bosniaks. Civil war in Croatia started after numerous murders of prominent Serbs living in Croatia (eg. Zec family from Zagreb was slaughtered by Croats) and attacks on Serbs. Keep in mind that Serbs in Croatia had vivid memories of Genocide against Serbs that happened only 40 years earlier (1941.-45.). Just to add, HDZ and Tudjman were using Nazi Ustasha symbols and narrative in their campaign for first democratic elections. After wining the elections, Tudjman brought back all those symbols (flag, coat of arms, national anthem, names for military ranks and formations) from Independent State of Croatia, and declared them official !!! After that Serbs, who were living under attacks from Croats, who were loosing jobs just for being a Serb, rebelled by taking control of municipalities where Serbs were in majority or in significant percent. New Croat authorities immediately started with armed attacks (Borovo Selo) and with attacks on JNA bases and barracks, to force Yugoslav Army to fire back, which then they presented as “JNA attacking peaceful Croat civilians”. Also, one of the first actions of new Croat Government was to form paramilitary formation ZNG (Zbor Narodne Garde), prior to independence.
@Dragan
In the Constitution of Yugoslavia from the year 1974, the first statement describes rights of the Republics inside Yugoslavia to became separate republics. It is not stated that pars of the Republics can become separate entities. Kosovo and Vojvodina have special status inside Republic of Serbia.
This fact refutes your sentence about right to independence.
Narativ about Ukraine-Yugoslavia/Novorossia-Croatia is possible from the moral grounds not from legal grounds in my point of vew.
Serbia is still frustrated after events that happened and are still happening inside and around. Normal cooperation between Croatia and Serbia will be possible after Serbia solve internal problems with Kosovo.
No secession was possible unilaterally. And no vote happened. So it was not according to law. And if Croatia seceded not according to Yugoslav law why was that same right denied to Serbs,i ask again?
Please point to that first statement in 1974 constitution and if possible provide a quote. And explain how Kosovo and Vojvodina refute my statement and which one?
@ Dragan
From SFRY Constitution 1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1974_Yugoslav_Constitution)
“The introductory part of the 1974 Constitution presents 10 basic principles:
1.Government: Yugoslavia is defined as a federal republic of equal nations and nationalities, freely united on the principle of brotherhood and unity in achieving specific and common interest. Holders of the sovereignty of nations and nationalities are the republics and provinces within its constitutional jurisdiction. Decision-making in the federation is based on communication and mutual rights and obligations of the republics and provinces. Socio-economic relations are established as a socialist self-management system.” This refutes your statement “However,Croatia’s right to independence ….At the same time,that same right was denied to Serbs living in Croatia who wanted to stay in Yugoslavia.”
This gives rights to the Republics inside SFRY to seccession but not to the parts of the Republics except for Kosovo and Vojvodina which are provinces of Serbia.
Dragan, please provide source for your claim that no uniratel seccession was possible.
Wikisource
Part five
“ПРОМЕНА УСТАВА СОЦИЈАЛИСТИЧКЕ ФЕДЕРАТИВНЕ РЕПУБЛИКЕ ЈУГОСЛАВИЈЕ”
“Члан 398.
О промени Устава СФРЈ одлучује Савезно веће Скупштине СФРЈ, уз сагласност скупштина свих република и аутономних покрајина, а ако се променом Устава СФРЈ уређују само положај република и међусобни односи федерације и република — Савезно веће Скупштине СФРЈ, уз сагласност скупштина свих република”
Please provide evidence that other federal republics agreed to it. I can not show proof of something never happening but you can show proof of it happening.
As for narrative,how about this one? Croatia-Ukraine,Krajine-Novorossia? You certainly understand the tendency to draw this one. ATO-Oluja and Bljesak. American instructors. German weapons. Western international support. Prohibition of culture and language. Nato involvement even up to bombing. Ethnic cleansing. History repeating itself,again.
@Dragan
In my opinion paragraph 398 describes regular change of Constitution and first topic which describes basic principles are of much greater importance. How this right to independence is to be achieved is topic for itself and do not negate right to independence.
Regarding narrative, I agree about Croatia-Ukraine,Krajine-Novorossia in technical part, that is I believe Novorossia will not became separate entity nor part of the Russia. Putin is much more clever then Milosevic. He will try to get Ukraine as one entity which is possible because of immorality of the current Ukraine leaders. Opposite is true in Croatia, moral was on the Croatian side and that payed of. From the moral standpoint, Ukraina = Yugoslavia, Croatia = Novorussia.
If we take into account that nowhere in the constitution its own dissolution was mentioned,than even dissolution and secession fall into that category.
I state again that no such vote happened. Unilateral secession happened. Which is unconstitutional at the time, therefore illegal. In light of this, your claim regarding:
“Holders of the sovereignty of nations and nationalities are the republics and provinces within its constitutional jurisdiction.”
cannot stand. Croatia ceased to be subject of that constitution,one way or the other, therefore no parts of that constitution can be applicable anymore to Croats.
Even if you argue that aforementioned claim stand,then why Croatian state denied that same right to Serbs, that Croatia,again one way or another,claimed from Yugoslavia? I must add that Serbs had their own referendum/plebiscit in 19th august 1990. Which Croats tried to disrupt by force but were repelled.
And now we come to the root of the problem. That is why international law was violated. Neither Croats nor Serbs on the territory of ex republic of Croatia had international recognition. Right to self determination was therefore applicable to Serbs just as to Croats. But that right is given to Croats but denied to Serbs. Just as i stated above.
Why was not possible to give Serbs right to stay in Yugoslavia,i ask again?
I agree that some autonomy was offered,but only after a time of civil war. Will Novorossia accept autonomy from Ukraine? Of course they will not. So who in their right mind could ask of Serbs that? And even accuse Serbs of destroying Croatia!
Croatian state was a willing ally of AngloZionist Empire in that case.
So, narrative Croatia-Ukraine,Krajine-Novorossia stand. Although i would engage in debate regarding Yugoslavia-Ukraine,Croatia-Novorossia even if i do not agree with it.
Croatians = Civilized Good People
Serbs= [ translated into human by moderator: ” I don’t like them ” ]
You are talking about this? I think that numbers talk for themselves. Although i would advise that you take Serbian version and translate it to english to find more info.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sajmi%C5%A1te_concentration_camp
Funny that you mentioned Banat but avoided to mention 7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_SS_Volunteer_Mountain_Division_Prinz_Eugen
This list will speak even more. Two whole SS Divisions,13th and 23rd, were formed with people from territory of Kingdom of Serbs Croats and Slovenes or Kingdom of Yugoslavia.
Three more,7th,8th and 24th were partially staffed from the same territory. None of those were Serbs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Waffen-SS_divisions
As for Milan Nedic i would like to draw a parallel for all to see.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands
Governors and Bailiffs which British Government left to govern under the occupation were after the war knighted and rewarded with
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_British_Empire
So,we see double standards. Milan Nedic did collaborated with the Germans. Serbia was not independent at that time it was under German military administration. Unlike NDH,among many others that killed Serbs. On the other hand,for the same service,British crown rewards handsomely their own collaborators.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_occupation_of_Serbia
To shed some more light upon the situation in Serbia at those times
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kragujevac_massacre
So,we see,for one killed German soldier 100 Serbs were to be shot and for wounded-50. Communists didn’t mind those casualties. And so British endorsed them. Remember that invasion of England was a possibility at that time and that thru Serbia Germans were sending supplies to Athens and into Africa to Rommel. Fate of Suez canal was hanging by a thread. But chetniks did mind. After all, those were their relatives and neighbors and they,chetniks,were in fact remnants of military of Kingdom of Yugoslavia bound by oath to fight. And so they did what they could in those circumstances. Isolated incidents did happen. But some of those were partisans engaged in false flag ops,believe it or not. Gestapo also used same methods. Some were criminals that got under the radar. Some wanted money. Some were blackmailed,… But some did collaborated. However Draza Mihajlovic was sacrificed on the order of the British just as the majority of the movement. British incidentally financed whole shenanigans in 27th march 1941. which sucked Yugoslavia into war. USSR also benefited from this by delaying deployment of some German troops bound for Barbarossa. But these benefits were minor as Yugoslav army was weak at the time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat
One other incident very close to Banat comes to mind.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novi_Sad_raid
And at this instance i would like to mention one great hero. Endre Bajcsy-Zsilinszky. He alone stood against it in the Hungarian parliament when he learned that the Raid was planned by the Hungarian military and police.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endre_Bajcsy-Zsilinszky
All those links were from wikipedia which we know is very inaccurate and biased. But if we know that western powers enforced communist narrative of communists-good guys and equating chetniks and ustasha,they are very telling.
For those who would like to learn more and are not afraid to use some translator,and of course are willing to check non-wiki sources…
http://www.jadovno.com/novosti.html#.VTeVcZNax2A
http://www.jadovno.com/en-lat-352/articles/djordje-prazic-jame-nasih-stradanja-i-zabluda1.html#.VTec75Nax2B
And for a reminder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usta%C5%A1e
“Our troops have to be mute witnesses of such events; it does not reflect well on their otherwise high reputation… I am frequently told that German occupation troops would finally have to intervene against Ustaše crimes. This may happen eventually. Right now, with the available forces, I could not ask for such action. Ad hoc intervention in individual cases could make the German Army look responsible for countless crimes which it could not prevent in the past.”
You’re right.
After the first war in Afghanistan, Croatia was an important front of US/NATO to push its pawns forwards, but the situation isn’t the same, even if there are MANY similarities, especially now with the new president, who constantly mentions NATO and takes a position against Russia.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LJCyLSFOPxQ
http://m.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/01/15/croatia-elects-former-nato-official-president.html
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cv2vOoNlvo8
http://tvzvezda.ru/news/vstrane_i_mire/content/201504100210-t05q.htm
And we must take also into account internal power struggles, as in Ukraine.
http://m.tportal.hr/vijesti/364964/Kako-je-Kolinda-Grabar-Kitarovic-docekivala-Carlu-del-Ponte.html
Calling ones nation “made-up” from century or so ago is completely ludicrous.Serbs could really stop behaving as Balkan hegemons of Slavs with their constant insults and lies of our identity,language etc…especially stop with threats of invasion in future for all crimes commited against “poor” Serbs when in reality those were defeats for your veiled expansionist politics.