What was the main demand of the Maidanites? Oh yes, to expel a fat corrupt leader. Now, several months later it sure looks to me that they traded one fat and corrupt leader for another one. The big difference being that Yahukovich at least did not use force against his own people. Poroshenko has no such problems.
 |
| Ukie oligarchs v2.0 |
The other difference – of sorts – is, I suppose, that the western corporate media called Yanukovich an oligarch. Not so Poroshenko. He is no oligarch. He is a tycoon. Same difference, of course, but one designates a bad guy, while the other is spoken with a sense of admiration for the resourcefulness of the latter.
Was there ballot rigging and/or other irregularities? Yes, probably. Does it matter? No, not at all. That big money would win the election was inevitable. That is the case in all so-called democracies, including the US, why should it be different in the Ukraine?
Timoshenko got only 12.8%. That is actually pretty good news since she clearly has had mental issues every since she was freed from Yanukovich’s dungeons.
Here are the other preliminary results according to RT:
All other candidates gathered less than 10 percent of votes each, with anti-Russian populist Oleg Lyashko, the head of the Radical Party, running behind with 8 percent, former defense minister Anatoly Gritsenko taking 6.3 percent and expelled Party of Regions MP Sergey Tigipko – 4.7 percent of votes. The candidate picked by the Party of Regions of the ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich, Mikhail Dobkin, gathered just 2.1 percent. Some 1.1 percent voted for Ukrainian Communist Party leader, Pyotr Simonenko, despite his recent announcement that he had withdrawn from the elections. Ultra-right radical nationalists appeared to have completely failed in the elections, with Svoboda (Freedom) Party head Oleg Tyagnibok securing 1.3 percent of votes and Right Sector leader Dmitry Yarosh less than one percent.
The bad news is that there are 8% of Ukrainians capable of voting for a lunatic like Lyashko. The good news is that the Party of Regions, the Communist Party, the Freedom Party and the Right sector are all dead in the water with terrible results.
For Moscow this is also a case of coming full circle. Why? For all the western propaganda Yanukovich was never pro-Russia or a friend of Putin. Neither will Poroshenko. Yanukovich was corrupt, so is Poroshenko, both of them will go with the higher bidder. Yanukovich did not have what it takes to impose his authority over the Maidanites and neo-Nazis, while whether Poroshenko can do better is an open question, at least to me.
So considering the alternatives, I think that even if the election of Poroshenko was a farce in terms of democracy, it is certainly not the worst result. At least Poroshenko is not a raving lunatic and, in the context of the current situation, this is already a lot.
This is the reason why Moscow, which clearly knew that Poroshenko would purchase this election, said that Russia was willing to work with the new President: because there is some hope that Poroshenko could take a more pragmatic approach. Whether this hope is realistic is another issue, but what counts at this point in time is simply that Poroshenko is not Timoshenko. That is good enough, at least at this point in time.
Big money won. That is certain. The big question now is whether Poroshenko has what it takes to crack down on the crazies and effectively crush them. I am not so sure, but I do believe that at least with Poroshenko in power there is some hope, no matter how small, that the AngloZionist will *finally* sit down and seriously negotiate with Russia and the southeast of the Ukraine.
According to the RT article I mentioned above, Poroshenko has declared that “we will have a united and unitary, not federative state.” He also also that a “decisive step will be aimed at ending the war, ending chaos, and bringing peace to a united and free Ukraine. I am certain that our decisive actions will bring fairly quick results. We cannot discuss the seriousness of security in our region without the participation of Russia. We will find the format and definitely will meet Putin.” I personally think that these are two mutually exclusive propositions, but my hope is that the first is empty electoral rhetoric while the second is Poroshenko’s real objective. We shall see.
In the meantime, the real big story this week was not in the Ukraine, but in Shanghai were Russia the China has formalized what is clearly a strategic alliance even if they never used that term. It is deeply ironical that the AngloZionist policy of trying to prevent Russia from becoming a superpower by bringing the Ukraine under the protectorate of the EU and NATO has so greatly contributed into creating the Russia-China alliance, something for more formidable than any rapprochement between Russia and the Ukraine.
I will discuss this tectonic shift in world politics in an upcoming and separate post.
Cheers to all,
The Saker
Euro parliament election swinging to the right, what are your thoughts on it?
Dear The Saker,
I personally am not sure about Poroshenko – let’s see. Why did he have to mention Crimea esp. when everyone knows its gone…..let’s wait for the gas to be turned off….
The Euro elections are going to have an impact too and it looks like the Euro-sceptic parties are doing well and gaining seats – this could change the views within Europe too.
Rgds,
Veritas
A percentage is a relationship, a relationship to a base.
Don’t emphasise or even specify the base for maximum propaganda impact; just like they don’t when selling shampoo and toothpaste –
63.7 per cent of dentists recommend Colgate to their patients.
No one knows the base or probably ever will. The target audience however has been subject to close scrutiny for many years.
Most likely none of the internal “players” care about the numbers since they are and will express power in different ways.
Options include but are not limited to:
1. Yarosh et al to Poroshenko may perform the role of Zhirinovsky to Yelsin roughly 1993 – 96 in trying to have the EU and US react to “internal” Ukrainianconstraints/problems – the old joke from 1993 about the US sending chickens east is already circulating.
2. Or in zek, places will be arrived at by other roads.
Well being an oligarch is not synonymous with being stupid, despite what many snuggled in comfort blankets might think.
The circle is neither a circle nor full. A circle is a two dimensional construct without lateral dynamic. The future will not be the past.
Its just another moment in the dynamic interactive lateral process, where hope will likely prove the weakness through which nemesis enters.
Hope is passive; to be an observer. To be a participant flexibility, analysis, activity and resolve are required.
Today another bar of chocolate was sold. That was always going to be the result – first the cakes, and then the chocolate.
The folks have a sense of humour, although to outsiders it may seem black or cynical – which ever pejorative suits.
To reference Nora, Americans tend to be impatient and perhaps you have caught some of this.
Beware of premature ejaculation – it will likely disappoint.
No he sells out to the west
Saker said
“What was the main demand of the Maidanites? Oh yes, to expel the fat corrupt leader. Now, several months later it sure looks to me that they traded on fat and corrupt leader for another one. The big difference being that Yahukovich at least did not use force against his own people. Poroshenko has no such problems.”
What is Porosenko’s authority? Is Yats still around? Right Sector?
RT’s take: a look at the underbelly of the Ukrainian presidential campaign, http://rt.com/news/161276-ukraine-election-useful-facts/
Fact 1
Presidential powers were considerably reduced in favor of the parliament right after the coup in Kiev. Oligarch Petr Poroshenko is likely to win office, according to public opinion polls. But after swearing an oath he, lacking his own party in the parliament, may find himself deadlocked on governmental decisions with Batkivschina (Fatherland) Party. Batkivshchina has strong contingent of MPs and is headed by Poroshenko’s main competitor, Yulia Tymoshenko.
Fact 2
At one point during the campaign, Tymoshenko threatened to start a new wave of street protests if Poroshenko wins. The barricades erected in central Kiev during the previous round of anti-government protest have not yet been dismantled, so all the necessary facilities for Maidan Round 3 are in place.
Hopeless. A mess.
Anon Mongoose
It is not a miracle – it is Ukrainian election: A neat stuck of pre-filled bulletins on the bottom.
And of course you see a “huge crowd”
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1601334.html#cutid1
Have some fun!
The braided lady was complaining about assets of new pres. been unfrozen recently by one eastern country. So may be this country has much more control over the situation.
saker, today there will be inaugurated Mr. Modi as priemmsinter of India who would be very amenable to Indian and thus Russian interests if the russiaan and indians play it right and exclude the intrusive americans from the indian scene.
alliance of russia-china india and iran along with germany will crush the anglosaxon parasites.
But what happens to Novorossiya?
That photograph looks like a bad teevee show.
But this whole thing is just like a hideous movie, only we’re living our lives while it’s going on instead of just sitting somewhere watching. I planted filet beans today and don’t even need to write it in my garden log: I’ll remember the date. And we were literally signing the papers for a new car (a tres rare event Chez Nora) while the Trades Union House went up in flames; came home, recoiled in horror, and the car’s name will always be Odessa. So I’m getting very emotional about this and going on and on about what a great job Putin’s doing in so very many ways but if only… and Mr. Nora just looks at me and says (choke), “He can’t.” What he meant of course is that he’s too wise and playing a long game he’s far more likely to win, with far fewer damages — and I get that — Putin’s speech yesterday was an incredible contrast with any State of the Union speech I’ve ever seen, and he handled that arrogant reporter perfectly imo. But, oh that video,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZefpTNul1E
How many of those people are going to die, and how many others everywhere else, because our leaders are so stupid and nasty and we can’t figure out how to stop them or replace them? The people in Novorossiya probably have better odds of doing that than we do!
Talking points………… sorry I’m gearing up to watch a hockey game and have started on some wine so I am breaking some of my self imposed rules.
Let’s look at the dogs that didn’t bark here. Timoshenko, Svoboda, Tyagnibok and Yarosh. Of course, this was a farce but it does give a picture of what the people on the ground want to say. Similar to the referendums in Eastern Ukraine. I’m sure that some of the “election Numbers” will be challenged and spun by everybody and his brother. Doesn’t matter much. You can’t argue much with the first round victory of such a magnitude, whether crooked or not or some combination of the two.
Now it’s up to Poroshenko. Does he double down on stupidity or does he get real. My optimistic side hopes he jettisons the idiots and comes to some accommodation. The accommodation could be a complicated structure (my ideas on this a really off the wall). But with these poll results he does have the option to run the fascists out if he wants.
More to say but the hockey game is starting.
@ Anon 23:10
Here’s my take. Evolution developed in the Naked Ape a genetic tendency to turn right whenever they see the devil is gaining on them. The devil is aware of this and uses it to advantage. The election results would thus indicate that quite a few Europeans have seen the devil.
So, whhose are the remaining parties in Ukraine?
Although Svoboda party or Pravy Sektor are abominable and wello off for the rest of the political arena,
I do not think it´s good, in a society, no one to take over politics.
In fact, that is the neoliberal dream,eliminate the state, institutions and political parties and place their technocrats-
A new feudal society, where large countries have no place, consisting of regions, afraid of each other, with a great lord leading his impoverished serfs.
Indeed, I hope people themselves, that once the conflict ended, should become politized and new alternatives.
In a society without parties, without references, only in the hands of oligarchs, I think the future holds, certainly disturbing…..
Not good times…..
Kind regards and good night
I am also feeling hopeful today after weeks of grim news and more doubling down on the crazy from the junta in Ukraine — the European Parliament elections have swept into office EXACTLY the parties the EUrofanatic and Bandera-apologist types like Yale Prof. Timothy Synder (and the Echo of Moskvy Russian ultra ‘liberals’) hate.
UKIP topped all parties in Britain with strong showings in the Midlands areas once dominated by New Labour which has sold out its British working class constituency and flooded those areas with low wage migrants. In France Marie Le Pen’s Front Nacional, purged of the anti-Semites and Vichy apologists of her father’s generation did extremely well.
The EUSSR (as the original Soviet dissident Bukovsky called it) is cracking up, and with it the Empire’s dreams of hiding its iron first in the Velvet EU glove. While I doubt Ukraine was a significant factor in the voting, the very politicians who have either complimented Putin (Farage) or denounced Russophobia and praised Russia as a part of European civilization (Marie Le Pen) have done exceptionally well. The Greeks are also putting.
Now we get to see if the European Parliament will truly act as a parliament or if it remains a powerless debating society for MPEs to blow off steam while the unelected commissioners/bureaucrats make all the real decisions. Undoubtedly the EUrocrats will also have to admit that their PR campaigns, MSM dominance have all failed pathetically and they will either double down or try to play divide and conquer with the euroskeptic parties by buying them off with token concessions and bribes. Either way, to use Steinmeier’s rant language from the other day, das EU ist KAPUT!
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-27567744
http://www.france24.com/en/20140525-live-eurosceptics-spotlight-eu-votes/
Vive le France! Long live the (Celtic) Christian England, Scotland and Wales of pre-Empire!
American Kulak
Saker
Seen this article on Kolomoisky?
Чудовищная жестокость и безнаказанность Коломойского (Monstrous brutality and impunity Kolomoisky)
http://www.km.ru/world/2014/05/25/protivostoyanie-na-ukraine-2013-14/740809-chudovishchnaya-zhestokost-i-beznakazanno
The relationship between Kolomoisky and Poroshenko is described, though from the translation I was unable to say for sure who was leashed to whom. If P is under K’s thumb, then it means the nazis have won by default. Even if it’s the other way around, and P is K’s superiour, that still leaves the Israeli-American fascists, who most definitely own and operate the nazi death squads and also own P. What may happen is P will be used as the “moderate and reasonable” figurehead, while on the ground, the zionazis continue their terrorism and destabilisation.
@VINEYARDSAKER
With the entire Новороссия (alias the full southeastern half (!) of “Ukraine”) not voting on the 25th, how can you talk of an “election” taking place … much less of some “president” being “elected”?
The main question, however, is why does Putin so eagerly participate in this farce? What is his “game”? What does he intend to achieve? It seems as if he is cozying up to his western “partners” sensing the limits of Russia’s power … or/and perhaps hoping to “trade” (Russian folks across the border in exchange for who knows what …). The thing has already gone much too far to be explained away by some “clever tactics” of Putin…
http://a.disquscdn.com/uploads/mediaembed/images/1045/1061/original.jpg
While you do have a point in saying that Poroshenko is the lesser of the evils here, I think it should also be noted that another possibility exists.
The fact that the US bank rolled not just the coup, nazi brigades in the east but also this selection (I refuse to call it an election)means that they will push their agenda.
I found it especially distasteful that the US election observers delegation was led by “its worth the price[when asked about 500,000 dead babies in Iraq due to US sanctions]” Madeline Albright.
This is a bloody insult to humans; Nazi parties taking part in “democracy” while their brigades launch military assaults in east Ukraine. Sickening hypocrisy amongst the western governments.
This is how the BBC is already promoting the new representative of emperor Obama:
“Announcing he had won, the 48-year-old businessman promised to forge closer links with the EU and restore peace in restive eastern regions.
Pro-Russian separatists severely disrupted voting there. Some 20 people have died in fighting in recent days.
No polling stations were open in Donetsk city, and across the region only seven out of 12 district electoral commissions were operating. The separatists are in control of large areas of the Donestk and Luhansk regions.”
[source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27569057%5D
Notice how the narrative is now changing to that of an elected business man bringing the separatist-freedom hating-election disrupting people of the east in line.
The US is hell bent on a war and I think they will continue to push this agenda. It would be a mistake to recognize this farce as a “free and democratic” election. It is the opposite of that.
‘Vote at gunpoint,’ anyone? US keen to legitimize ‘good’ election in Ukraine
http://rt.com/news/161408-us-ukraine-support-election/
Int’l observers note vote-buying at Ukraine’s presidential election
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_25/Intl-observers-note-vote-buying-at-Ukraines-presidential-election-6999/
Voter turnout appears appear to have been rather low, lower that the regional independence referendums in the east, even with the Israeli-American ballot stuffing and “diebold help” (somebody earlier posted a photo here of very neatly stacked ballots sitting in the bottom of the clear voting boxes.
Voter turnout in Ukraine’s presidential election reaches 40%
http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_05_25/Voter-turnout-in-Ukraines-presidential-election-reaches-40-4643/
В неполном составе (Incomplete)
http://www.vz.ru/politics/2014/5/25/688347.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/www.vz.ru/politics/2014/5/25/688347.html
В ходе выборов на Украине зафиксированы 360 нарушений (During the elections in Ukraine recorded 360 violations)
http://vz.ru/news/2014/5/25/688349.html (Trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/vz.ru/news/2014/5/25/688349.html
Poroshenko will crack down on the Maidanites because the west will won’t say anything.
Kiev needs subsidized gas and money from Russia, but they won’t get it unless they give the federalists what they want. Of course the nationalists will go crazy if Poroshenko gives in to the demands of the east but if he doesn’t, there will be civil war.
Part1.
This person was already selected on Saturday in the Norwegian press. Our foreign minister Brende showed his support to him and promised that Norway would pay several millions to Ukraine. I do not like this person .
“
Weapons, Prostitutes and Drugs –These are Things Petro Poroshenko is Associated With
No matter how few people may take part in the Ukraine’s presidential election on Sunday, the outcome is known in advance – Petro Poroshenko, the US favorite rote son, will be declared the winner of the race. The result will further split the country. Many regions refuse to recognize as President this chocolate king who is notorious for pocketing government money. Poroshenko has no chance to stop the bloody conflict even scrupulously carrying out all the orders given by Joe Biden, Victoria Nuland and Geoffrey Pyatt. Besides, the mission of putting an end to bloodshed has never been set by his US bosses…
Billionaire Poroshenko started his business by laundering the money of Soviet times’ administrators. He has never been an entrepreneur to start a business of his own. The story is invented. He made a head start thanks to the criminal connections of his father sentenced for large-scale theft in 1986. Having served the sentence, Poroshenko Sr. launched his own business making his son involved in the activities. The business was dirty, it all started with plundering state property by armed gangs. The Poroshenko family had plans to expand the activities beyond Ukraine. Tatyana Mikoyan, a well-known Kiev-based lawyer, remembers what the family did in Transnistria, «It was horrible back in the 1990s: illegal arms, prostitutes, drugs – all bringing profits to father and son». Poroshenko Sr. was awarded for his merits – in 2009 he received the Hero of Ukraine decoration bought for him by his son who paid to then President Yushenko, the Godfather to Petro Poroshenko’s children. The would-be President-elect is well known for misappropriating budget funds. He has the reputation of someone who knows how to make money out of thin air. Many times he has been accused of being involved in large scale corruption schemes, open lobbying, embezzlement of budget allocations, tax evasion, illegal operations to acquire shares and physically threatening political opponents and competitors. Certainly he is not just another swindler but a tycoon, an owner of huge and diversified business empire.
Forbes lists Petro Poroshenko as the 130th richest Jew in the world with 1, 6 billion dollars. The would-be President of Ukraine
Part2.
Poroshenko was born Waltzman. Poroshenko is his mother’s name, she was also a Jew. In the past Poroshenko was a sponsor of Our Ukraine and Victor Yushchenko. His business empire also includes the 5th TV channel known for vehement anti-Russian propaganda. Until recently his Roshen confectionary manufacturing group had earned hundreds of millions in US dollars making business in Russia. As of 2012, Roshen accounted for 3, 2% of Russian market (the 6th largest producer). He always used the money earned for anti-Russian projects.
The presidential hopeful and tomorrow’s President-elect makes the return of Crimea to Ukraine and defending the country from «outside intervention» his foreign policy priorities. It’s hard to find anything stated in concrete terms in his program. There is nothing definite there. Instead it is full of empty calls for making a «free European state», «revive military might» etc. Many find his speeches repugnant, especially when Poroshenko starts telling stories about «patriotism», «national unity» and «protection of human rights».
Petro Poroshenko is a political chameleon. This tycoon was very cynical as he went into politics. He did it for personal enrichment. He is full of ambitions and outright lust for power but lacks a professional team to work effectively or impress public. He is rather led by greed than ideas.
Now Poroshenko exercises control over local authorities in the Vinnytsia, Volyn, Chernovitsy and Zaporozhye regions dreaming of spreading his power to the whole Ukraine. His propensity to get involved in monkey business can hardly be restrained. Poroshenko is one of the most odious figures in Ukrainian politics and heads the list of the country’s corrupted persons. Having suffered so many failures, he is going to become the country’s next President with Washington’s blessing.
“
https://www.facebook.com/TruthfromUkraine
Poroshenko says he wants to visit Donetsk-Lugansk for talks as one of his first moves. But:
Власти ДНР: Визит Порошенко в регион вряд ли возможен (The authorities DND: the Visit Poroshenko in the region is hardly possible)
http://www.vz.ru/news/2014/5/26/688392.html (Trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/www.vz.ru/news/2014/5/26/688392.html
“The visit Poroshenko, who won according to the exit poll on the election of the President of Ukraine, is hardly possible, stated the head of the Provisional government of the Donetsk national Republic Denis Pushilin.
“When someone is elected President, he’s always going to first visit a neighboring state. Is the way we treat his idea to come to Donbass”, – said in an interview RIA “news” the head of the Provisional government of the Donetsk national Republic Denis Pushilin.
One of the leaders of the unrecognized DND believes that any talks with the new President of Ukraine is possible only in the presence of intermediaries”. “To discuss possible only see two themes – exchange of hostages that we have and Kyiv, and the withdrawal from the territory of DND Ukrainian occupying forces”.
Meanwhile, as expected now the “election” is over:
Власти Украины объявили о возобновлении силовой операции на востоке (The Ukrainian authorities announced the resumption of military operations in the East)
http://www.km.ru/world/2014/05/26/protivostoyanie-na-ukraine-2013-14/740846-vlasti-ukrainy-obyavili-o-vozobnovlenii-s (Trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/www.km.ru/world/2014/05/26/protivostoyanie-na-ukraine-2013-14/740846-vlasti-ukrainy-obyavili-o-vozobnovlenii-s
“In the near future military operation in the Eastern regions of Ukraine will again enter into an active phase. As reported by “Interfax”, at a briefing in Kyiv stated Rada appointed the first Vice-Premier of the Republic of Vitaly Yarema.
He explained that on may 25, the security forces stopped active actions “for a more peaceful solution of the issue of the elections and with the fact that residents of the Eastern region was able to get to polling stations. Now the military operation will continue.
In confirmation of his words , ITAR-TASS informs about resumption of fighting in the vicinity of Sloviansk in Donetsk region. As has told to the correspondent of the Agency representative of the people’s militia, the security forces fired mortars at the village Semenovka.
On the eve of this town already came under artillery fire of the Ukrainian army. The result was destroyed several houses and the building of the psychiatric hospital. Injured in the shelling was not, as the staff of medical institutions have been requested to evacuate patients.
Slavyansk and surrounding villages are under fire for several days in a row. At the headquarters of the militia is believed that in this way the security forces expect to exert psychological pressure on the residents of the city and its surroundings.”
Anonymous 23:32
Mr. P, is that you?
@Veritas
Poroshenko likely mentioned Crimea to stake out ground for negotiations with Russia.
Nice to see someone from the England know so much about the Ukraine.
I wonder how those in the France and the Italy view this.
Hint; it’s “Ukraine” not “the Ukraine”.
[Sic] I forgot to fill in the sentence about Greece. The euroskeptic anti-EU austerity Syriza leftist party did well in the MEP elections, but these elections won’t lead to current governments being toppled, only possibly shaken up.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-05-25/greece-s-syriza-leading-in-eu-elections-exit-poll-shows
Greece desperately needs a euroskeptic Right that is not tainted like Svoboda or Golden Dawn with Swastikas and occultism.
Maybe a populist, pan-Orthodox, pro-Russia/China Eurasia trade, conservative euroskeptic party can achieve some results there. But it seems the so-called ‘center right’ is hopelessly divided and the Onassis-type money bags for any such party are still in the pocket of Brussels.
At least that’s my very shallow understanding of the situation, being a non-Greek who doesn’t read Greek only understanding a few Cyrillic-type letters of their alphabet.
American Kulak
Saker,
Do you really mean what you write here?
” The good news is that the Party of Regions, the Communist Party, the Freedom Party and the Right sector are all dead in the water with terrible results. “
That you put the Communist Party in the same sentence as the right sector, makes me worried. What have these people done to you to deserve such hatred. They are being harassed for their opinion, beaten, kidnapped and gets death threats. They are chased from their office in Kiev, and I understand some was tortured and killed during the maidan-coup. There are many videos, but it seems that there are few who care about them.
What is so wrong with the Communists that they deserve to be treated in such a way? They have a belief in the public benefit, and a belief in individual freedom from market forces.
I see a lot of hatred of Communists in the world, and little tolerance for other people’s opinion and conviction. It’s like a label, a kind of stigma that is used without understanding for what communism stands for in the modern era. It’s a shame, I think.
I’m curious to know what was the reason you chose to write as you did.
Sincerely
The curious.
@EVERYBODY:Hint; it’s “Ukraine” not “the Ukraine”.
I am so tired of that type of arrogant ignoramuses who want to share their “culture” with the rest of us… Does somebody have the energy to explain to this bonehead why he is wrong?
For me I don’t have the energy to do this for a fourth time…
If not, that’s ok. Makes no difference, really.
Good nite everybody.
The Saker
@The curious:What is so wrong with the Communists that they deserve to be treated in such a way?
Historically, the Communists have murdered millions of people in Russia, they have viciously persecuted the Orthodox Church and almost all social classes. And for most of its history, the Communist rule in Russia was rabidly russophobic. As for our times, I do not blame the modern communists for that past, but I find them totally out of touch, archaic and outright pathetic. I think that even if a lot of them are truly idealistic, the Communist parties of Russia and the Ukraine are anachronistic and counter-productive. I am not comparing the thugs of the Right Sector and their victims from the Communist Party, but I am happy that Communism “sells” neither in Russia nor the Ukraine. I want a new and different Russia and Ukraine, not a Russia and Ukraine which have forgotten the horrors of Communism and who are nostalgic for a imaginary Soviet past from which all the horrors and stupidities of Communism have been forgotten.
You are welcome to disagree, of course.
The Saker
@Oligarch vs Tycoon
Depends how you answer the question: What’s good for the Jews?
Yanukovich was about to arrest two “tycoons” or more modestly “business titans”, Hennadyi Korban and Boris Filatov for murder. They fled to Israel wherefrom they supported the Maidan.“We want to live in Europe, not in an outpost of the Russian empire,” said Mr. Korban,speaking by phone from Israel (from NYT).
Both were associates of Kolomoiski and Filatov was appointed Deputy governor of Dnipropetrovsk.
WizOz,
Hmmm. Did that almost-arrest help trigger the putsch? Are these guys big enough/tied in enough to Neocon Central for that to figure into “Why Now”?
@Nora,
Hard to say, but do you think that the whole Neocon pack would have jumped to “help” the Ukraine had not the “tycoons/business titans/oligarchs” belonged to the same tribe? The Kagans,the Nudelmans,the Wolfowitz, the Kristols, alight from the same regions (Poland, Lithania, Ukraine).
“The Ukraine” is perfectly adequate because the territory of the Ukrainian Soviet Republic was the result of the joining of the Ruthenian territories that had been under Muscovite rule for centuries with other territories which, while ethnically the same, had a completely different history as a result of centuries of rule by Poland and then Austria. Presumably this was done by Stalin to provide more buffer room by pushing the USSR’s western border to the Carpathians and to undercut Polish efforts to incite Ukrainian nationalism against the USSR. Stalin thus combined into one territory lands that identified with Russia and lands which defined themselves in opposition to Russia.
Ukrainian nationalists may argue that there was an embryonic Cossack state in the Ukraine following the revolt against Poland and that this state failed because its elites were bought off by other powers, most notably by Moscow. However, that was a few centuries ago and a fair bit of ethnogenesis has occurred since then.
Saker,
Perhaps in a later post you could provide your historical analysis of the events that took place in the Ukraine from the Khmelnytsky Uprising through to the Battle of Poltava and of the relationship between the Zaporozhian Sich and the Russian Empire?
@Kagans,
“among the four(people) arrested during the SBU special ops in Mukačevo was the young head of the Right Sector terrorist section, Ruslan… Kaganets” (http://7dniv.info/)
I too am disappointed with aspects of Sakers analysis. For brevity, it largely manifests in his treatment (or rather ‘elephant in the room’ lack of treatment) of the role of that forbidden topic “The Jews”. His last post at 01:27 is a case in point. He blames ‘The communists’ of post-Oct 1917 for being russophobic which is fair enough so far as it goes, but no mention of their near total domination by Jews which, to anyone who studies the period objectively, was clearly the animus behind Bolshevik/Communist hatred of Orthodox Christianity, the destruction of thousands of its churches and the systematic murder of its clergy and faithful. That dominance was gradually eroded through the latter part of the 20th century but remained a factor well into the Khrushchev period.
A personal anecdote: In the late 60’s I was a merchant navy engineer. For a period I served on a chemical tanker which transported partially fermented red wine between Oran and Novorossysk. I vividly recall one memorable drinking session with the captain, first mate and chief engineer of a similar Russian vessel in Oran on board their ship; we had no Russian and they had no English but communication improved as the night wore on. It was made clear to us that a member of the Russian crew heartily disapproved of our presence on the ship – exaggerated conspiratorial whisper, whisper throwing glances over shoulder – “political commissar”. The sneering expression of sheer contempt on that old sea-dog’s face as he added кровавый еврей has stuck in my mind these past 40 odd years. Russians were wiseing up fast to the role of Judaism in their 20th century tragedy. It’s still very much a presence but doubtful it could ever regain its previous stranglehold now – I hope and pray; but pace that classic piece of English comedy ‘Faulty Towers – The Germans’ “Don’t mention the war(Jews)” eh?
So please, let’s not pretend that Judaism has nothing whatever to do with events in Ukraine – Elephant in the room doesn’t come close to the way the subject is almost universally treated. I was even advised recently that a proposed new section titled “The Jewish Queston” on a major deep politics forum would be best not undertaken for fear of …. well for fear of what exactly? THAT really is the question.
Jews make up just 0.143% – that’s 143 Jews of each 10,000 of the Ukraine poplulation but they now have a Jewish president; Jews, most notably Kolomoisky, dominate the Ukrainian oligarchy and Dnipropetrovsk hosts the largest Jewish-cum-Holocaust centre on the entire planet. So what exactly is going on here? – I reckon that question is eminently worthy of rational discussion and debate – but it seems everyone else prefers to keep their heads firmly in the sand on it – It’s A-OK to upset just about any self-identifying group on the planet; but God forbid we upset his chosen ‘eternal victims’ eh?
Poroshenko is not Ukrainian, neither Vitali Klitschko.
poor Ukrainian people with them
Remember the shell game.
Poroshenko was “elected” on or about the 23rd of February 2014, perhaps before.
Oops – Last post should read:
“that’s 143 Jews in each 100,000 of the Ukraine population”
To see the sole hand of the laughingly designated US in everything is to obscure and deny the agency of others.
To do so shows subliminal ideological acceptance of “American exceptionalism”.
Why not test the hypothesis that
Poroshenko was the candidate of all of the candidates in the election?
Is it a notion of unfairness blinding analysis.
Intelligence has purpose but no sides. The same applies to oligarchs.
To recognise the contribution soldier.
War is not a passion play but is marketed as so – the armchair warriors cheering on “their team”, the naive volunteers enthused to “get with the team”, and conscripts accepting the team – all for the primary benefit of others.
When the marketing doesn’t work then fragging takes place – a quite normal practice in armies, if not generally desribed as such.
Why vote for a representative?
You are playing in your opponents paradigm.
on poroshenko, by valeri korobin
says he is a very convenient person for the USAn strategists (hmmm … I wonder if is there such a thing in the USA)
http://www.vzgliad.ru/opinions/2014/5/23/688073.html
From a fat oligarch to a fat oligarch, indeed.
Only, this new one is kosher.
Behold, now it’s a full circle.
Anonymous said…
I wonder how those in …. France and …Italy view this.
Try this website for views from La France:
http://www.les-crises.fr/
Amuser vous bien!
26 May, 2014 01:10
@pascal managra said…
There is no negotiation. Crimea is gone. Today the choco king is now saying he is going to get Crimea back via leagal means – the guy is delusional if he thinks that is the way to get Russia on side.
The point I was making is that he is carrying on the same way as the Junta – so don’t expect anything good to come out from him being made President.
Rgds,
Veritas
An illustration of a previous entry even if the numbers are neither stated nor important.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-27559714
25% of 43% is roughly 11% of a base which excludes the under 18 year olds.
The real crowing is about 43% of a base which excludes the under 18 year olds bought the chocolate by playing the game.
They weren’t particulary active, save in playing the game.
But even on these figures 57% didn’t, although the 57% are not explicitly highlighted.
To paraphrase Karl Rove, although motivation is not established greater significance likely lie with the 57% – the ones you should concentrate on, remembering the inherent prediliction to think that bigger quantities are of more significance than smaller quantities.
Reply to everybody @ 01-19.
Its the Ukraine to differentiate it from pre-Baltika.
Not before the beer was marketed of course.
Wikispooks:
Jews make up just 0.143% – that’s 143 Jews of each 10,000 of the Ukraine poplulation but they now have a Jewish president; Jews, most notably Kolomoisky, dominate the Ukrainian oligarchy
The Prime Minister Yatseniuk is also of Jewish background, but currently worships as a Uniate.
Its fairly amazing looking at the current government, I wonder if there are any Moscow Patriarchate Orthodox Ukrainians. They only make up 65% of the population of the country.
There isn’t a single member of the government from the South or East except for in Dnipropetrovsk.
I suppose this is what passes for representative government. That’s certainly what they tell us here in the US.
Song:
the Ukrainian Soviet Republic was the result of the joining of the Ruthenian territories that had been under Muscovite rule for centuries with other territories which, while ethnically the same, had a completely different history as a result of centuries of rule by Poland and then Austria.
While they all and Great Russians used the same ethnonym in the past, Russkij, it is worth noting that Ukrainians in the west have a large percentage of ancestry coming out of Dacia/Thrace (Romania/Serbia) represented by Y chromosomes of the I2a lineage, while in the rest of the country the typical Slav R1a lineage so common in Russia, Poland, Slovakia, and Slovenia is vastly predominate.
So Banderaites and East Ukrainians are not ethnically the same, if we understand ethnicity to be a group of people of common descent. They are ethnically related due to significant overlap, but not identical.
Regarding their different history, its worth recalling that since 1250, Galacia was ruled by Moscow only from 1939 to 1941 and 1945 to 1991. Volyn was Moscow ruled only from 1803 to 1917, 1939 to 1941, and 1945 to 1991. Vinnitsya and Khmelnytkiy was only 1774 to 1991. So in 800 years, only 10-25% of the time was with Moscow. The remainder of that time was under Poland, and 150 years for Galacia with Austira/Germany. Kiev had a much longer history with Russia, but has been partly repopulated by immigration from the western provinces in the past 20 years.
This level and length of alienation from Russian culture has to be taken into account when considering thinking about Ukraine.
It was a prejudice in the time of Yeltsin.
Zhirinovsky said that his mother was a Russian and his father an accountant.
Another who will remain nameless used to say that there were 7 oligarchs and a Russian.
These phenomena did have a basis in Soviet “reality” with a pronounced after-life, but beware of the prejudice blinding analysis.
Ukraine Sitrep
IMF-World bank demands Eastern Ukraine be reunited with Ukraine as a whole. Poroshenko is ruled by greed ( why are they calling him the “chocolate king” like he is some goofy advertising construct?) so he will cooperate with any forces that will do this. There doesn’t seem to be any signs of intelligent, effective leadership in Kiev so a peaceful solution is unlikely to happen. It is sad, sad, sad to know that there will be untold stories of sufferings to come out of this brutality. The press here is saying that Poroshenko is Russian Orthodox and “makes pilgrimages to monasteries in Russia”? So since Jews are not a race and this guy does not participate in the Jewish community am I missing something about this guy being Jewish? mitochodrial DNA aside?
fun exercise: search google news over the past twenty-four hours for aritcles that have the word “oligarch” in the title – i.e., intitle:oligarch – and savour the numerous results.
actually, worldwide there are seven (7) articles. this is how propaganda works.
the western media outlets that call poroshenko by his actual moniker are:
– hintergrund.de
– Berner Zeitung
– Tiroler Tageszeitung Online
this is manufacturing consent in action
try the same exercise as i mentioned above, but with the keyword “tycoon”, and you get totally different results.
so: go to google news, search for “intitle:tycoon”, click on search tools, click on Any time and select Past 24 hours.
What you get: 5 pages of results, as opposed to 7 links (of which 3 Western media outlets).
And they said the Soviet Union controlled the news flow.
@Wikispooks,
“elephant in the room”
Think that many who emigrated to Eretz are now dual-citizens and shuttle between Eretz and Ukraine. Now imagine that by adherence to EU they would also become European citizens.
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Picgrant Singapore 2014