by Putnik
The 20th anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre has brought turmoil to the political stage in Bosnia and beyond. At the behest of certain interest groups a resolution with be forthcoming in the United Nations Security Council commemorating the tragic events in Bosnia and condemning the “genocide” that occurred. Much ink has been spilled in regards to the causes and responsibility, who killed who, who ethnically cleansed who, who started the war, who’s at fault. I will attempt to answer a few of those questions and perhaps give a more rounded less partisan view.
Bosnia today is divided, three ethnic groups, two entities diametrically opposed to each other and a political class that is entirely centered on self-gain and interest. This is something that both Nebojsa and Ahmed have written and bemoaned yet that is where their agreement ends. The Bosniaks dream of a strong unitary state which will finally allow them to fulfill their dreams. Every problem, every setback in Bosnia it seems is connected to the continued presence of the “aggressors”, and their hated, genocidal entity “Republika Srpska” which is the real reason that Bosnia is stuck and that once this issue is resolved all things will be well. Even Ahmed repeats this mantra in his article. I would like to point out that the Sudeten are now German free as is all of Poland and nobody is talking about genocidal entities. Non the less that is part of the conversation in Bosnia which in reality is no dialogue but rather monologues next to each other. The FBIH entity which Croats and Bosniaks govern, is a crazy mash-up of 10 cantons, each with its own parliament and government level, 2-3 or of those are ethnically mixed and there is another layer of craziness, ethnic vetos and national interest votes. This Washington Agreement era government madhouse has been joined at the hip with Repubika Srpska, the Serb part of Bosnia. The inhabitants of RS would like nothing further then to secede with or without war. While the political class continues to talk and fear monger with the same topics and imaginary enemies Bosnia is slowly dying an economic death. Young people in Bosnia are desperate to leave, if tomorrow by some chance the Europeans were to decide to give Bosnians free visa travel most of the young, educated, and entrepreneurial would end up leaving that country and never looking back whether they are Serbs, Croats or Bosniaks…
Yet despite this dreadful situation, economic, social and demographic collapse, the politicians continue to spin and their voters continue to affirm them vote after vote, election after election. The topics are the same as they were in1991/92, and the electoral ideas are the same. In fact many of the politicians are the Same, one can’t blame a hollow shell of a politician like Haris Silajdzic for campaigning with the same slogan of “fighting for 100% of Bosnia” after all this is what brought him to power in 1991 and that’s what has kept the nationalist in power since. Even people like former prime minister and current president of Srpska, Mr. Milorad Dodik who once represented moderate and pro-European forces among the Serbs now is representing the most hardline positions, posturing as the sole defender of the Serbs in Bosnia. The fact that the political elite in Sarajevo and Banja Luka fully cooperated when it came to skimming of the customs duty scandal is apparently lost on most Bosnians irrespective of their ethnic background.
I am disheartened that the previous author posting on this issue has that same cognitive blindside. Ahmed seems to be falling into the same trap. While his analysis of Abdic and Izetbegovic is fairly accurate, he falls for the same political traps most of his ethnic kin fixates on: the 49% percent of land awarded that the Serbs got and the fact that they dared to lay claim on Sarajevo. If we look at the 1991 census, 157000 or 29% of Sarajevo citizens declared themselves as Serbs, compared to 49% as Muslim (Bosniaks). Today there are less than 12% or a mere 35000 are Serbs. This is particularly troubling when one looks at the 1921 census which had Orthodox Christians and Moslems at a relative parity of 38.9% and 34.9% respectively. Todays “multi ethnic” Sarajevo contains ten times less Serbs then it did before the war. It is particularly galling for those Serbs who were born and grew up in that town. Many of them spent a good part of the war fighting for their town only to be labeled as aggressors and outside interloopers. For somebody who was born there those are rather painful labels.
Bosniaks often refer to the Serb entity as Republika Sumska, implying that it is mostly Forest. While Serbs do control 49% percent of the country (and controlled during the war close to 70% of BiH), the Croat-Bosniak Federation has most of the urban and industrial areas. The RS railway company operates 400 km of rail while its counterpart operates 600km of railways. I could try do dig up the industrial output figures as well but there is no sense since industry in both entities has been in a state of collapse since 1991.
The second part of Ahmeds article in particular is disconcerting as well because two key aspects of analysis are missing. Was cohabitation in a “Third Yugoslavia” as he put it possible, and what exactly has changed in that formula that would make coexistence in Bosnia possible? Bosnia was often referred to as the heart of Yugoslavia because of its intermixed populace and the fact that no part of Bosnia or Hercegovina was truly homogeneous. Like the soviet union, Yugoslavia was composed of many different peoples and like the Soviet union, it featured borders that were drawn and redrawn by communist apparatchiks and had little do with where people lived and what ethnic group they belonged to. The AVNOJ borders were created by a set of wartime communist cadre who had no democratic or elected representatives. Those same borders were then used as de-facto state borders. But none the less Ahmed is insightful in the fact that he shows us the mindset of his father’s generation which did not want to continue living in the country of the south Slavs and expect a quickie divorce that would be enforced by NATO and western powers. Nobody has really addressed the reasons for war? What was so difficult and dramatic that made live in Yugoslavia unbearable for the non Serbs, and was this something that could not have been addressed during the profound changes that all of the eastern block countries were undertaking those years. Frankly this is probably the highest and darkest mark on the rank and file members of all ethnic groups. All of their leaders from Franjo Tudjman, Slobodan Milosevic, Alija Izetbegovic and on failed to understand what the future if not the next quarter century would bring. The focus was solely on primacy of their own ethnic group at the expense of the others. Unfortunately for Izetbegovic and most of his ethnic kin, the miscalculation was severe and gross. For the Bosniaks the war came and it was long and bloody and now 25 years later we still can’t put the pieces back together.
So where can we put the blame on? Was it truly Milosevic and his nationalistic rhetoric as Ahmed puts it? Was it Izetbegovic? Tudjman? All of them? Any of them? Reform forces in the Yugoslav republics were defeated during those first multi party elections. For a long time I was asking myself why couldn’t we be like the Soviets, why couldn’t we separate ourselves peacefully and live in separate but equally miserable states. Certainly that would have been preferable to the fate of all the people who suffered through war in Yugoslavia. The truth was and always is that it truly was not entirely up to us. After all to the victor go the spoils and the cold war victory required spoils, and in our case, well we were the spoils. Brzezinski has often declared that the ideal state size of a country of less than five million people because those kind of states can offer no kind of resistance to US interests. And indeed the statelets that came to be, are all weak and depended on US/western policy. This is in stark contrast to a Yugoslavia which was the center of world politics, which could field 8 million men under arms. whose armed forces were strong enough to be too tough of a nut both for east and west.
Yugoslavia was many things to many people. What it was not is pretty clear, it was not a democracy, it did not have long established and strong institutions that would have enabled a dialogue and a transition into the new world of liberalism, capitalism, and globalization. In many ways Yugoslavia was the EU before the EU, idealistic, full of unelected officials bent on turning the “unwashed masses” into a new Yugoslav (European/Soviet) man that was better, just like the New Soviet man, the new Yugoslav and the new European man have suffered defeat or reality. As soon as the good times where over and there no longer was a need for a strong buffer state between east and west it was utterly doomed to failure. Unfortunately for the Serbs, who had chosen it as the country where all of them could live together along with the others (narodi and nardnosti). I would like to point to Iraq, after the invasion there the occupiers organized elections and celebrated those results as just that, success and transition to democracy but in fact nothing could be further from the truth, the rule of the Shia in Baghdad was so tolerant and inclusive that it opened the door to ISIS because the sunnis saw them as the lesser evil.
The similarities between the former Soviet Union don’t end just with the borders. Like the ethnic conflict in Georgia, were Abkhaz and Ossetian people were thrown out of the constitution, in Croatia shortly after the multi-party elections Serbs were thrown out of the constitution and became “guests”, in 1995 those “guests” who had lived there for centuries were evicted. In Bosnia the Serbs were more numerous and despite effort on the part of the west did not share the same fate. The Croat and Bosniak leadership in Bosnia and Herzegovina declared independence despite the fact that the right of secession was the right of the people and not of a federal republic, Serbian boycott and opposition to this were ignored and the war that followed was no surprise. Serbs, on the other hand insisted that the areas in which they were the majority remained within Yugoslavia. Two world wars and the ottoman occupation made the Serbs acutely aware that a minority status within a state often was the precursor for death, camps, and ethnic cleansing. This was the case during both world wars and remained deeply ingrained in the Serbian psyche.
Today, the region is again in the center of world attention. The latest east west conflict is upon us and again the Balkans are being used as a side theater for the great nations to settle scores. The anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre is being used as the springboard for reform of the Dayton agreements. The talk of the town in Belgrade is that EU membership for Serbia requires Serbian acquiescence on Kosovo and the defanging of Republika Srpska. While the current quisling leadership of former hardliners turned Europhiles is trying to balance their political futures with the demands from Berlin, Brussels and Washington, the writing is on the wall that the UNSC resolution discussions are just the first set of steps towards the pacification project in the Balkans. To some this is very eerie and reminds of 1941, where Germany is interested in pacifying its Backyard before it can turn its attention further east. Given the Greek “NO!” over the weekend and the Serbian hopes for a Russian veto it will be interesting to see what further developments will take. What is clear is that the local populace will continue to suffer from local political abuse and the interventions of the great powers which rarely if ever have the wellbeing of the natives on their mind.
Truth, Reconciliation and the Future.
The reality in Bosnia is that the ethnic groups are not in direct completion for resources or domination but are clearly unable to formulate a key set of principles upon which they could try to build on for the betterment of all. Instead politicians who have long outstayed their welcome on the political arena are continuing to court local populace with expired and poisonous delusions. However the biggest problem of course will be to reconcile and acknowledge the truth on all sides and move forward beyond the war and the associated ethnic approaches.
It is an undeniable fact that the Serb populace west of the river Drina (Border river between Serbia and Bosnia) has been subjected to several attempts of genocide and ethnic cleansing. These atrocities occurred at the hands of the Austrian Schutzcorps and regular army units during WWI, the German and Nazi puppet forces during WWII and most recently during the events in the 90, with the ethnic cleansing in Croatia during operation storm. This trauma has left the Serbs in general and Bosnian Serbs in particular anxious over being a minority (given the population losses and outright genocide attempted at the hands of the Ustase regime this is really not that surprising.) in a border country with Serbia. The establishment of Republika Srpska brought that security blanket. As flawed as the Dayton Peace accords were, they brought real understanding and compromise to the table. The fact that nobody walked away completely satisfied marked a remarkable success for everybody involved. The peace that has followed is now marking its second decade and we should all be content in regards to it. Going forward the Serbs in Bosnia need to find a framework in which they can cooperate with the Federal authorities in Sarajevo without weakening the entity rights of Republika Srpska. This fine balancing act has already been announced by the Serb co President of BiH and his Alliance for Change coalition members in Srpska. The current SNSD government in Srpska led by Srpska President Dodik is largely playing into the nationalist trumphed because it has nothing to show on the economic and domestic front after 8 years in power and widespread ruin in that arena.
The Bosniak parties in Sarajevo are largely divided and without clear leadership that can take them on this path. The wartime Washington Agreement bound the Bosniak and Croats together in a cantonal arrangement with a straight jacket approach of 10 cantonal governments, 10 different sets of laws and procedures with entity and federal laws and legislatures coming on top this. Their Croatian junior partners are very unhappy due to the inability of electing representatives into the government that would represent their interests. The current dilemma has been created with certain Croatian politicians being elected with the help of Bosniak votes into positions that should be reserved for Croats. And here the mess that is Federation of BiH gets really bogged down. On the one side we have real concerns of the Croatian populace about being able to elect their own representatives and the advocacy of numerous individuals pointing rightly out that in a modern European values based society there is no place for ethnically based positions and voters. Is a Croat, a real Croat or is he a Croat in name only. The wish of many Bosniak politician and citizens towards a modern plurality based system is drawn out of this morass with some justification. Calls for a 3rd entity that would give the Croats the same security blanket that the Serbs have is an anathema to most if not all Bosniak politicians. With the entry of Croatia into the European Union the question of 3rd party interference is however now throwing this entire situation into uncertainty. After all the new HDZ government in Croatia has clearly indicated that it will pay special attention to the diaspora and the position and rights of Croats in Bosnia. Bosnia’s EU prospects therefore could be conditioned on the change of status and arrangement within Bosnia and the FBiH entity in particular. This difficult situation is even acknowledged by the EU which has delayed its more critical approaches and instead is focusing on improving the economic situation inside Bosnia. This deliberate change of tactics is partly in recognition that current carrot and stick approaches have not borne fruit, and that while Bosnia flounders without progress its economy and people suffer the most.
As mentioned earlier the Croatian political forces in Bosnia are continuing their fight to achieve the nominal level of representation within Bosnia. HDZ with Dragan Covic at the helm have allied themselves with Srpska president Dodik and are hoping with the support of Croatia proper to resolve this problem. The easiest and most unlikely scenario is that a new international conference would change their status and give them the third entity that would be their own. This however is meeting stiff resistance by the Bosniak body of policy who are adamantly against any further “partitioning” of Bosnia and Hercegovina. Croatian unhappiness at current arrangement however is undermined by the fact that they are least numerous ethnic group in Bosnia. Continued migration into Croatia and the west now that their homeland is part of the EU only aggravates this problem.
The future of Bosnia and Hercegovina
The future of BiH depends on many external and internal factors. However there are define steps that could be taken to improve the long term odds of this small Balkan country. The major issue framing Bosnia of course is the “Croat question”. Should the Bosniak leadership end up with a major agreement that would satisfy the Croatians it would transform the current situation into something that could be built upon. Bosniak-Serb relations have been improving partly due to the efforts of SDS led moderates in Bosnia itself and partly due to the push by the current Serbian government to reconcile with it neighbors and put the ugly events during the Wars of the Yugoslav succession behind. This effort, currently let by Prime minister Vucic, has borne some fruit however issues over war time crimes continue to muddy the waters, the arrest and subsequent release of Naser Oric being only the latest incident.
The basic problems can be summed in 3 steps. Equal, fair and comparable representation for all 3 ethnic groups is the first step towards a better future. Strong, independent and equitable pursuit of wartime truth and reconciliation strategy (so that non Bosniak ethnic groups can get the impression that it not only jailing their wartime veterans) and Reform and joint effort at improving the economic and Social problems Bosnia is facing. It is an open question whether the local political forces will have enough strength and foresight to answer all of these challenges. The current political elite is entirely focused on their own personal gain and is completely disinterested in addressing the real and difficult problems facing Bosnia.
It is to be expected that foreign actors like the EU and the United States continue to meddle and impose their own ideas and solutions and of course the renewed cold war between Russia and the West could bring new problems and challenges that could not only have a severe impact but also seriously endanger the current fragile peace and existence of Bosnia.
Putnik was born in Sarajevo, he later emigrated to Europe and the USA.
Please correct those quotes to “alleged massacre” instead of massacre. There was simply no “massacre” there, it’s a PR stunt. Stop feeding it.
Also Dayton was in no way a compromise solution, but a clear treason – the Serbs were winning. Even that “compromise” became possible only due to a series of staggering defeats for the jihadists towards the end of the war. They lost some 20000 soldiers in just one of these battles, where they got into a trap.
As for the rest, it’s very clear who made this all happen and why. Here’s a little glimpse, from the mainstream to boot:
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Dutch Report: Us Sponsored Foreign Islamists In Bosnia
By Richard J Aldrich
Reprinted from The Guardian (LONDON)
Monday April 22, 2002
Comments by Jared Israel
[Posted 22 April 2002]
=======================================
The long-awaited Dutch government report on the Bosnian war has been released. Elsewhere we discuss the so-called massacre in Srebrenica (1), dealt with in the report. But aside from Srebrenica, the report has very important things to say about US cooperation with and sponsorship of Islamist terrorism in Bosnia. This is discussed in the Guardian article, below.
The Guardian gave their article the title: “America Used Islamists To Arm The Bosnian Muslims.”
This is misleading. The U.S. did not support *all* Bosnian Muslims, it supported the faction led by Alijah Izetbegovic. Izetbegovic is a Muslim fundamentalist who began his political career supporting the Nazis during World War II. (2)
During the fighting in Bosnia, Muslims were sharply divided between pro and anti-Izetbegovic factions. Many anti-Izetbegovic Muslims allied with the Bosnian Serbs. The Western media labeled these people, “Muslim Rebels.” But Izetbegovic’s Islamist faction was referred to as “the Muslim-backed government in Sarajevo.”
(In olden times, a priest officiated in the coronation of a European king. But in Bosnia, a government was created by the Western media.)
Even among Muslims, one could argue that Izetbegovic was not the leading politician. In the 1990 elections, the biggest vote-getter was Fikret Abdic. And it was Abdic who led the anti-Islamist Muslims who were allied with the Bosnian Serbs. For more on Mr. Abdic, see the article, “Pro-Yugoslav Muslim Leader Put On Trial,” at
http://emperors-clothes.com/docs/abdic.htm
For more on the role of foreign Islamists in the Bosnian conflict, see “Bin Laden in the Balkans” at
http://emperors-clothes.com/news/binl.htm
— Jared Israel
***
America Used Islamists To Arm The Bosnian Muslims
The Srebrenica Report Reveals The Pentagon’s Role In A Dirty War
By Richard J Aldrich
The official Dutch inquiry into the 1995 Srebrenica massacre, released last week, contains one of the most sensational reports on western intelligence ever published. Officials have been staggered by its findings and the Dutch government has resigned. One of its many volumes is devoted to clandestine activities during the Bosnian war of the early 1990s. For five years, Professor Cees Wiebes of Amsterdam University has had unrestricted access to Dutch intelligence files and has stalked the corridors of secret service headquarters in western capitals, as well as in Bosnia, asking questions.
His findings are set out in “Intelligence and the war in Bosnia, 1992-1995”. It includes remarkable material on covert operations, signals interception, human agents and double-crossing by dozens of agencies in one of dirtiest wars of the new world disorder. Now we have the full story of the secret alliance between the Pentagon and radical Islamist groups from the Middle East designed to assist the Bosnian Muslims – some of the same groups that the Pentagon is now fighting in “the war against terrorism”. Pentagon operations in Bosnia have delivered their own “blowback”.
In the 1980s Washington’s secret services had assisted Saddam Hussein in his war against Iran. Then, in 1990, the US fought him in the Gulf. In both Afghanistan and the Gulf, the Pentagon had incurred debts to Islamist groups and their Middle Eastern sponsors. By 1993 these groups, many supported by Iran and Saudi Arabia, were anxious to help Bosnian Muslims fighting in the former Yugoslavia and called in their debts with the Americans. Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation – in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.
The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah. Wiebes reveals that the British intelligence services obtained documents early on in the Bosnian war proving that Iran was making direct deliveries.
Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East. Initially aircraft from Iran Air were used, but as the volume increased they were joined by a mysterious fleet of black C-130 Hercules aircraft. The report stresses that the US was “very closely involved” in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations.
Light weapons are the familiar currency of secret services seeking to influence such conflicts. The volume of weapons flown into Croatia was enormous, partly because of a steep Croatian “transit tax”. Croatian forces creamed off between 20% and 50% of the arms. The report stresses that this entire trade was clearly illicit. The Croats themselves also obtained massive quantities of illegal weapons from Germany, Belgium and Argentina – again in contravention of the UN arms embargo. The German secret services were fully aware of the trade.
Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon’s own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations. The UN protection force, UNPROFOR, was dependent on its troop-contributing nations for intelligence, and above all on the sophisticated monitoring capabilities of the US to police the arms embargo. This gave the Pentagon the ability to manipulate the embargo at will: ensuring that American Awacs aircraft covered crucial areas and were able to turn a blind eye to the frequent nightime comings and goings at Tuzla.
Weapons flown in during the spring of 1995 were to turn up only a fortnight later in the besieged and demilitarised enclave at Srebrenica. When these shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly threatened into silence.
Both the CIA and British SIS had a more sophisticated perspective on the conflict than the Pentagon, insisting that no side had clean hands and arguing for caution. James Woolsey, director of the CIA until May 1995, had increasingly found himself out of step with the Clinton White House over his reluctance to develop close relations with the Islamists. The sentiments were reciprocated. In the spring of 1995, when the CIA sent its first head of station to Sarajevo to liaise with Bosnia’s security authorities, the Bosnians tipped off Iranian intelligence. The CIA learned that the Iranians had targeted him for liquidation and quickly withdrew him.
Iranian and Afghan veterans’ training camps had also been identified in Bosnia. Later, in the Dayton Accords of November 1995, the stipulation appeared that all foreign forces be withdrawn. This was a deliberate attempt to cleanse Bosnia of Iranian-run training camps. The CIA’s main opponents in Bosnia were now the mojahedin fighters and their Iranian trainers – whom the Pentagon had been helping to supply months earlier.
Meanwhile, the secret services of Ukraine, Greece and Israel were busy arming the Bosnian Serbs. Mossad was especially active and concluded a deal with the Bosnian Serbs at Pale involving a substantial supply of artillery shells and mortar bombs. In return they secured safe passage for the Jewish population out of the besieged town of Sarajevo. Subsequently, the remaining population was perplexed to find that unexploded mortar bombs landing in Sarajevo sometimes had Hebrew markings.
The broader lessons of the intelligence report on Srebrenica are clear. Those who were able to deploy intelligence power, including the Americans and their enemies, the Bosnian Serbs, were both able to get their way. Conversely, the UN and the Dutch government were “deprived of the means and capacity for obtaining intelligence” for the Srebrenica deployment, helping to explain why they blundered in, and contributed to the terrible events there.
Secret intelligence techniques can be war-winning and life-saving. But they are not being properly applied. How the UN can have good intelligence in the context of multinational peace operations is a vexing question. Removing light weapons from a conflict can be crucial to drawing it down. But the secret services of some states – including Israel and Iran – continue to be a major source of covert supply, pouring petrol on the flames of already bitter conflicts.
Richard J Aldrich is Professor of Politics at the University of Nottingham. His ‘The Hidden Hand: Britain, America and Cold War Secret Intelligence’ is published in paperback by John Murray in August.
richard.aldrich
(c) Guardian 2002 Reprinted for Fair Use Only http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,688310,00.html
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One more thing: there is no and can’t be any reconcilliation with criminals and with crazy jihadists. Simply not doable. You can’t make deals with psychopaths.
It will only become possible if the bosnian muslims (the little people) wake up and chase those impostors (their “leadership”) out of the country. The chances are rather small though.
One more fallacy to correct – there was never any unity between the muslims and the Croats in Bosnia – they fought each other quite a lot until their masters ordered them to stop. But even today they are also divided, an example:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/02/uk-bosnia-mostar-idUSLNE83102N20120402
“Twenty years since the start of the war, ethnicity is still a deep dividing line – no more so than in Mostar, where Croats hold the west bank, Muslim Bosniaks the east, in an uncomfortable co-existence that has resisted foreign efforts to promote reintegration.
A town of 72,000 people, it has two electricity companies, two phone networks, two postal services, two utility services and two universities.
Croat and Bosniak children go to separate classes, learning from different textbooks…”
Here’s also a very clear display of that false “unity” – the warnings on cigarettes:
http://i.imgur.com/KGYf24B.jpg
The third line is obviously cyrillic for serbs, but it’s identical to the two above except for the alphabet used.
The interesting thing is the two above, also absolutely identical to the letter, but TWICE there in latin, once for the muslims and once for the Croats. Now how’s that for unity?
Last year, I’ve traveled through Croatian part of Bosnia. I haven’t seen Bosnian flag anywhere, not even on the government & municipial buildings. Just Croatian flags.
> This is in stark contrast to a Yugoslavia which was the center of world politics, which could field 8 million men under arms. whose armed forces were strong enough to be too tough of a nut both for east and west.
Well, the problem is, that Yugoslav army was too tough of a nut for Yugoslavian economy as well. It was too much of a burden, and one of the most important (if not the most important) reasons for its collapse.
The decline of Roman Empire according to Mises (https://mises.org/library/inflation-and-fall-roman-empire) is similar to the decline of the Yugoslavian economy in the 1970s and 1980s. It could be summed up in one sentence: Printing money for the military.
That is one of the reasons, but not the main one. The main reason was the heavy sanctions for years and “freezing” of funds that destroyed the country economically, as well as usual games of the global banks and funds in collusion with domestic traitors. And of course the treachery of our “communist” government that swallowed all the IMF “reforms”, followed by privatisations etc., see Greece or similar today. Only after that was the war possible, or rather – that made it possible.
Same game, same players, same methods even back then. It was just not in the media and we had no internet to know about it. We were as stupid as the worst sheeple nowadays, late learning comes with a price tag.
IMF came near the end of 1980s, when economy was well under water.
The company I’ve worked for back then was doing industrial automation in Serbian factories, among other things. Colleagues, who installed our stuff there told me, that these factories were 100% overstaffed. Half of the employees had nothing to do on the job but drink, and organize forklift races. People kept their jobs for social reasons, and companies like Železara Smederevo were kept afloat by printed money. Consequently, inflation rate was already in the 3 digit area.
To get things in order, to make companies profitable again, roughly 50% of employees in Serbia would have to lose their jobs, there was no other option, IMF or no IMF. No regime in this world can withstand something like this. That’s why Milošević needed war. He was just another cynical banker. Reasons for the war were purely Orwellian. Nationalism was just a tool.
You had the same situation regarding employment in all socialist countries back then, that’s nothing specific for Yugoslavia (which you omitted, referring only to Serbia for whatever reason – all republics were in bad shape regarding that, except maybe Slovenia).
Milosevic neither needed nor wanted war, nor was the serbian side the one who started it. Serbs from Serbia didn’t take part in Croatia/Bosnia wars anyway, bare a handful of gangs called “volunteers”, who only joined so they can plunder at the front lines. He never fed any sort of nationalism either, quite the contrary – he was of the old communist gang who wanted to keep the socialist Yugoslavia together. He actually did all he could to prevent the war, but he had no chance against the foreign influence and the nationalists from all three sides.
Sanctions began much earlier and also the games of loans/banks/funds was going for some time before the big punch. Also for decades Yugoslavia was dependent on western money, that’s what kept it alive till the 80’s. Among other things we delivered rocket engines to americans etc. There are extensive archives about the exact details and how it came about, can’t quote that all here but it’s easy to find.
T2015 .. come on, if Serbs from Serbia were not marching along side of the tanks entering Vukovar or flying the planes strafing/dropping bombs in the fall of 1991 or “managing” the looting of private farmer & PIK farm equipment …. who then?
Would partitioning Bosnia work? Work in the sense of being tolerable, and perhaps avoiding another disaster.
Yes, let’s partition every and each country in the world until they are not bigger than a Carribaian island-nationa and completly powerless against the forces of international finance.
How about we partition the US, let’s partition down to the county level, each & every county can have it is own laws: carry guns or don’t, allow abortion or don’t, free trade or protectionism…
Oh you are not American! what UK? let’s partition that to Scotland, Weals & Londonland…You are German you say! First we split that big black eagle along federal lines, then we open our history books and sharpen our border-drawing pencils…..
Ah! you don’t like it when people want to partition your country to solve your problems, do you know.
OK, so what is your idea to bring peace there? Keep it practical, not “make banksters vanish from Earth” or “turn it into Switzerland”.
I would certainly prefer to keep countries together when possible, but it may not be feasible in certain cases. For example, I see the Ukraine as being an artificial construct that has been built as an anti-Russian entity over the last hundred years. If it could break apart peacefully, well, maybe that is the least bad choice. Thus my question about Bosnia.
We the people were never the problem, 95+% never wanted war nor would they want another one. The war was started by small groups of terrorists and mostly internationally imported (or re-imported) mercenaries.
Nowadays the country is still actually ruled by the UN-governor, the whole government charade is just that, a charade. All just corrupt puppets of the big money respectively.
As for the people, we would re-unite today, that would be no problem if there was not for foreign influence there and the few psychos with guns (as usual, the higher up the ladder you go, the more psychos you’ll find). The people are utterly defenceless and the last few generations didn’t even serve in the military (which is not mandatory any more, that was one of the first “reforms” after the invasion). All just sitting ducks nowadays, bare the few old farts.
Partitioning is not a solution. Communists (Tito) used an iron hand and kept the Yugoslavia peaceful. He, being a Croat himself kept Croats under the boot, after he took care of the fascists. Mind you, Yugoslavia was also fine after the Turks were kicked out and the king ruled.
The key is to keep the West out of it.
How do you propose to keep the West out of it? Croats are part of the West these days, aren’t they? And they are in Bosnia. And Bosnia is surrounded by Western business interests, to say nothing of geostrategic matters. And Russia and Turkey want to have influence there, so that alone means the West has to get involved. It’s the nature of the Balkans.
Your question on partition isn’t misplaced at all.The problem lays in the regions where the peoples live.Look at a map of those locations.You’ll see the Serb area is almost a half circle surrounding Bosnia.And the Croat area is in the South near the coast,with the Middle mostly Bosniak.For partition to make any real sense you’d need massive population movements.Serbs would need to be given lands further out closer to Serbia.Croats moved to regions bordering Croatia.And the Bosniaks moving into the vacated Serb and Croat lands.To replace the lands given to the other groups.It isn’t impossible.But would be horribly expensive and destructive to age old regions, regional loyalties, and memory.
It is obvious, and to be expected, that people from the various areas are not going to agree on what happened. That is why there werer wars about it in the first place.
It is time to stop calling each other names (not even killers or murderers) and talk about how to go ahead into the future. Constant continuing calls for wiping out the others will lead only to further rounds of revenge killings. None of it will bring back those who died back then.
It is wonderful to see articles here from each point of view. It is a chance for everyone to see how the others see it — which you would never know in real life because you refuse to TALK with “those killers”. So if it turns out they think the same of you? so what? listen to why they think that, how they think the events went down.
Anyone reading here should know by now, from Ukraine if nothing else, that the different sides have different stories. Tell themselves different stories. Never see or hear the other side. Have been used by outsiders. Brainwashed or paid off or both. And from outside we can tell BOTH are sometimes lying, BOTH are often mistaken, NEITHER has the whole truth.
The same applied in Yugoslavia. Start listening. Start listening, if you don’t want to be used yet again to start another World War.
Excellent comment, Kat Kan. In many parts of Eastern Europe, people are still fighting the Catholic versus Protestant fight: “you’re not really going to marry that Protestant, are you??!!” Even that is still dividing people. Of course, many in Europe view the years 1914 – 1945 as the Second Thirty Years’ War. Germans really don’t want to go for a third on their soil. They have had enough of that!
Someone said here the other day that they didn’t feel having this discussion in English would help; that they need to do it in their own language.
Someone said elsewhere that many commenting here may have been living outside their country for a god while, so not be up to date with what the people back home think and feel now.
Both of these are valid points. But those disadvantages can be turned around and made useful.
It is true that emigres, refugees, and even more so children who grew up elsewhere, but hearing the firsthand stories of what happened, will have a “frozen in time” view of the history. They have missed out the further information, the meetings with the former enemies, the revisions over time as more came to light. So in a way they represent the narrower and more extreme views. (Ukraine example of this — the rabid Naziness of the Ukrainian diaspora that moved to Canada after the war, and their kids who grew up as academics who have defined the whole Ukraine/Russia situation for ALL of North America — then exported the Naziness back into Ukraine, largely unaware of the other side’s version).
On the other hand, using English, which is shared by many other ethnicities now, gives access to information not available to ANYONE in the countries concerned. You know stories and myths and legends about your own people, where they came from, who they met and mixed with, how the language or religion or social conditions changed.
You never hear this in detail about the other people. You also never hear the scientific research aspects of it — the archeology, the international language studies, the DNA and other research into origins. Big changes on these in recent years, too. A lot of this research is available ONLY in English, some bits in German and French. The pieces for your own country done by your own researchers is also available in English, as these historians use it to communicate. with each other. You might find about your own people in your own language, but never about your neighbours. You know when and who by your country was occupied, whose empire they were part of, but not about the other side of the river.
Doing it English gives you all access to international research (and there are people here interested in these topics for all of Eurasia). You can compare notes about your neighbours’ legends and researched histories. You can compare how X new tribes arriving or Y new empire affected other people — and discover what they did to you was nothing personal against your people, it was just the way they treated everyone. And find out their reasons, what drove them, what they were fleeing from. And today they are normal nice people same as you.
So, I think doing it a common language gives ALL of us better access to all the researched facts, It makes us find the right words in a second language rather than repeating the well-learned automatic words we learned/grew up with. That search for words can help find new meanings, too, and will bring new reflections from the others making the same effort.
Even us outsiders, or peripherally involved in your histories, have learned differently about you. Not necessary an EU/Zionist/ Victors type of thing, just a reflection of what our people knew or heard about yours. That too can be mirrored back at you, while we can discover how and where we got what we think we know.
Disclaimer: I am Hungarian, grown up in Australia. I am the emigre child mentioned above, but with very educated but politically neutral parents. I learned about “the victors write the history” when I first was taught about World War 2 from British text books in school — and then got the European version from my parents, who were right there in the thick of it as it happened. Then argued with my surprised teachers about it. My 16 great-great-grandparents were 9 different ethncities, a few of which no longer exist. I spent 3 months living in Hungary (with relatives, as a local person, not as a tourist) in 1976, and again in 1994, for my pre and post Soviet personal experience.
Valid comment and reasonable path forward. However, what is perhaps being missed is best captured by Orwell [1984]: “Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know that no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
Both writers are not in the region anymore, the first one didn’t live through the troubles; this one is not clear if he emigrated before during or after the wars…..
I understand that these people have better knowledge and insight and they have the language skills to write a lengthy piece about it, but it is a known fact that emigre supporters have 100% die-hard unforgiving stance because they are not there and don’t suffer the daily consequences of conflict.
Avenge the rape of my sisters and the death of my brothers? or get water & electricity running again and schools open for my kids? that’s the reality of life.
I applaud the Saker’s ambition of starting a dialogue, but I doubt any reconciliation will result from this and as information for others each writer is biased and unreliable, so should be read with this in mind.
Well Nebojsa Malic, who wrote the initial piece last year, DID live in Sarajevo all throughout the war – and he noticed big lies in the official narrative because of it.
He also said that the Serbian-controlled part of Sarajevo ended up more damaged than the part controlled by the Bosniaks.
It is also known that the Sarajevo government kept water turned off even when it was working. The UN reports and testimony say that only 40% of the UN food sent into Sarajevo was distributed at all. So the Sarajevo government WITHHELD 60% of the food.
And of the 40% they distributed, most all of it went to the army in Sarajevo or ended up on the black market. (This is known from ICTY transcripts.)
So the official Bosnian government PURPOSELY kept the food which was getting in a large amount (by regular UN trucks/convoys) to keep the people deprived.
The government used these deprivations to SELL the war – to have Serbs be blamed and to have the people be greater victims than necessary.
The UN said that the Sarajevo government INTERFERED with the utilities MORE than the fighting itself.
So A LOT was down by Izetbegovic to make things worse and project that for the cameras.
Things were staged for the cameras and Bosnian Muslims DID target civilians and the UN in Sarajevo knowing Serbs would be blamed in the press. Meanwhile the UN personnel did spot them and catch them at times and would complain to them and their leadership but to no avail.
Now doesn’t THAT sound familiar?
“They broke the water supply, we are just trying to fix it”
“They shelled themselves again”
“They burned themselves alive just to make us look bad”
“They broke the ceasefire by shooting back”
At least today we have internet and cell phones with cameras, so it is a teeny bit easier to show the truth. For older events we need witnesses. Documents would be nice too, and someone from the other side to admit the truth. The bosses won’t say, but a few workers who were ordered to turn off the water… and not ones just fired who can be accused of just saying it for revenge.
Okay, but it is NOT literally shelling themselves, sniping themselves, etc. It was the paramilitary forces/army forces shelling civilians for PR (political reasons.) They themselves were not at the end of it – they were the ones launching. So it was pain inflicted on OTHERS but done from INSIDE their own lines.
One UN officer testified their tactic was “shoot and scoot” – the Bosnian Muslim forces in Sarajevo had very good MOBILITY, while the Serbs were in fixed positions.
They had shoulder and vehicle – mounted weapons.
Fact is when you say “shelling themselves” it sounds as if people are being suicide and themselves suffering – they were not. They were shooting OTHERS inside the lines they controlled.
There were cameras before. And there is some amazing footage.
Regarding that, it might be interesting to you to take a look at this short documentary that touches on just a couple of lies that were sold to the world.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9yCii_hrrg
There is more video material like this still circulating the Internet. It might be worth watching in order to get a better understanding of the weaponization of media.
This is from around the same time, but for different conflict. So might be a little off topic. But all these are useful as they add another piece of the puzzle when trying to understand how demonization of one nation works.
Take a look at how lobbying worked in these conflicts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Texv6vGk4HM
And this is a wife of the crook from the previous video (she deserves an Oscar for the performance)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhaAEDCjS-o
Another 3 minutes from that same show. And RIP Col. David Hackworth. He was on ‘enemy’ side, but at least he was an honourable man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TAPjKNXvQ8
If someone was to ask me, what am I as a Serb most proud of, one of the top things would be: the fact that we never did these disgusting lobbying and propaganda efforts and pay senators to do our bidding, and simply lie to get people bombed and killed.
Those who created these lies and ran the demonization campaign (as well as false flag events) made a short-term success. But truth often comes back to bite them, it just takes time…
Oh my! I have to add this too:
(from 5:46)
Calling for de-nazification and democratization of Serbia and Montenegro. Awesome.
But first warning for all these videos: they might lower your IQ and inflict a permanent damage to the brain. Watch at your own risk.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpeGXxzNn58
And believe it or not, she’s still active:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBOGESDEx8c
I will quote here Mark Sleboda from Crosstalk:2..0 RIP post,to answer what next in Bosnia.
“One of the most famous pieces of US propaganda: “It’s time to move on,forget the past.”
It’s time for accountability and acknowledgment of what has happened and holding people accountable before national and international law.”
To these words i would like to add few points.
1. Let us explore involvement of USA and Saudi Arabia in Bosnia and Germany, along entire Europe at the time, and Vatican in Croatia.
2. About corrupt politicans. Let’s take Ukraine for example. Yanukovich was corrupt and was leading country into ruin. So let us replace him with whomever. That lead to civil war. Was he good? No. Was he better than the civil war? Yes. Would you support him if you saw what the altenative would bring? Especially if the altenative is very reminiscent (if not entirely same) of WWII or before ,when your people suffered horribly? I would. Wholeheartedly. And only when no threat of escalation into another tragedy is present i would try to change things. It is madness to change government at the eve or in the middle of the war.
3. About international justice and ICC in Hague. Palestinians have high hopes of that court. Look where Serb displaced trust in that court lead us. ICC is USA controlled. Just look how many years of jail time is assigned to Serbs and how many to Croats and Bosnian muslims. I will not go into claims of genocide and collective guilt dogma. I will just mention treatment of those in custody and procedural shenanigans to cover up for involvement of those from point 1.
4. Be wary with equating ethnicity,nationality and religion. It is a slippery slope where boundaries are drawn arbitrarily,very often using force. These new boundaries,territorial,ethnic,national and religious are then exploited and more often than not lead to war.
Whatever one think of those boundaries they are very relevant today and they need to be clear cut. So that they can not be so easily exploited.
5. Masses did not wanted war. After all they were the one that would bear all the burdens of the conflict. Just as they did in previous ones. They were pushed into it. Masses still do not want war. And they will easily find the way. Just leave them be with false promises,lies,obfuscation,importing wahabi’s,privatizations,sanctions,bombings,depleted uranium munitions,destroyed infrastructure,falsifying history and present time,forced trade deals with hidden clauses,…
In short,when “civilized world” leave us “uncivilized” people alone to deal with the problems they created,only then will we able to start finding common ground.
Where to even start?
The break-up of Yugoslavia was the start of everything wrong we are seeing in the ex-Soviet states today.And not only was it a horribly tragic event for the Yugoslav peoples.But for the whole World ,as we can see today.It gave the Empire a temporarily “winning playbook” for them to follow. It confirmed what the criminal Brzezinski stated.Small states are easy to control.And they are hard at work to make sure any country that might oppose them is broken apart.They don’t have much of a problem with big states that support them (so far) as long as they are chaotic enough.Its really not a new strategy.The Romans employed it in the ancient World.But they were better with it.And actually were less greedy than the US is (they at least gave their subject peoples actual Roman citizenship,and made the areas part of their Empire).
Had the Ottomans not interfered in the Balkans we wouldn’t see the problems there today.They were the first “real” dis-stabilizers there.Without them the early Balkan states would have evolved along the same path as the rest of Europe did.Peoples that were the same people (Croats,Serbs,Bosniaks) would sooner or later have united as the German,Italian,Spanish,French,English,Russian,etc,states did.And it would have been early,before the rise of nationalism tried to separate similar peoples into “dialect nations”.But that didn’t happen.Instead nationalism overtook them.And like with Ukraine we saw the communists make matters worse during their period.
Instead of realizing that Yugoslavia needed above all unity.They catered to nationalists in the separate “Republics”.King Alexander had the right idea when he abolished the separate “Kingdoms” and reformed them into non-ethnic units (the same reason during the French Revolution the government there abolished the regions in France and made “Departments” instead).In a country where the main ethnic peoples are the same people divided by history (and in this case religion) only.You strive to unify them,not separate them even more.In Yugoslavia unity was helped by the common language.But hindered by the separate religions.But as Albania (of all countries) shows,religion doesn’t have to separate people too much.By building the common ethnic and linguistic unity,religious differences can be overcome.They blew that,by creating those “Republics” built around so-called ethnic peoples (really religious peoples).Then with the fall of the Communist governments things got even worse.Without at least the pretense of “Socialist Unity” the country was left to nationalists and foreign interference.
Is it too late to overcome those problems and at least bring unity to the separate “Republics”,let alone the whole “Yugoslav” region? I really don’t know.But what I do know is, if foreign meddling keeps being permitted. There will never be a chance for those peoples to have peace,freedom, and unity.The struggle for the Balkans is far from over.What we see now is just a “timeout”.
You had a good beginning, but the region’s history goes much further.
“Had the Ottomans not interfered in the Balkans we wouldn’t see the problems there today.They were the first “real” dis-stabilizers there.Without them the early Balkan states would have evolved along the same path as the rest of Europe did.”
Balkans had other problems before Ottomans, long story. But right before Ottomans the biggest problem were the Hungarians, who tried to conquer the yugoslav lands. That situation with Hungarians was the main reason the then-ruler of Serbia chose to go under Turkish “protection” (becoming a vassal state) because the Turks were the lesser evil in his view. Later, the problem was the Austro-Hungarian empire which conquered the land from the other side, with some areas switching between Turks and Austrians. Also Austrians created the “serbo-croatian” unified language and pushed the new reduced alphabets onto both Serbs and Croats. Basically that’s when the Serb-Croat division got created, which was purely religious within one folk before that, but then was abused to define two peoples. So actually if it wasn’t for the Turks, we’d all speak hungarian and german with austrian accent there nowadays.
Where I’m going with this, the Yugoslavs actually ARE one people of the same stock that got divided by all the invaders that came along whenever they could. Mongol invasion created the mixture that produced Bulgarians, Turks created bosnian muslims and indirectly caused the creation of Macedonians, Austrians created Serbs and Croats as distinct folks, Albanians and italian fascists created what later became Kosovo etc. Basically only Slovenians were a somewhat separate tribe, the rest came from one tribe initially. Also confirmed by genetic research. Majority of all groups (~40-50%) are Illyrians, stemming from the original natives, with some 25% slavic blood and 10% of germanic blood, the rest being almost negligible.
Certainly the Hungarians were a problem.But they could be handled.It was the Ottomans that devastated the land.That forced the depopulation of much of Serbia,Bosnia,and much of Croatia.They also brought in another religion to further divide the people.At least the other division was between to Christian faiths.And had been dealt with in the Balkans for centuries.When the Serbs in mass numbers emigrated to Croatia and Hungary Kosovo began to be settled by Albanians .Leading directly to the problems in the heartland of ancient Serbia.Language since the middle ages has mostly determined nationally.And here are maps showing the language pattern of the 5 dialects of Serbo-Croatian in the region at the beginning of Ottoman rule,and one today.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbo-Croatian#/media/File:Serbo_croatian_dialects_historical_distribution_2.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Serbo_croatian_languages2006_02.png
LMAO at that second map from 2006 – all the four listed “languages” are one language, barely enough differences to even describe them as dialects.
There is no “bosnian” language at all. It was simply invented as something separate by the bosnian muslims in the 1990’s. They have exactly zero differences to standard serbo-croatian that I learned at shool as a kid, not a single new or “own” word.
Montenegro has a little bit different dialect or rather accent, while the “new” croatian tried to restore some of the medieval dialect spoken there (which was back then also named Serbian, it was just the old slavic language, “serb” was just the old term for “slav” back then). Croats as a separate entity got invented by the Austria-Hungary during the times of Maria Theresia rule and Karadzic language “reforms”. There were croat lands before meaning the geographical area, but no croatian nationality as such. It was created by Vatican and Austria.
Still, after all these stunts, we still all speak the very same language and everyone understands each other perfectly. That map is thus outright insulting.
Old, Yugoslav era joke (1985-ish):
International demonstration of Yu army readiness. After the military exercise a Yu General answers questions from colleagues around the world. He has an answer for every possible scenario of attack on sovereing Yugoslavia soil. Eventually, the American general asks: What you gonna do if no one attacks you?
On the outskirts of Srebrenica posters of Vladimir Putin have appeared with the following caption:
“An Eastern alternative – Republic Srpska”
http://www.tanjug.rs/full-view.aspx?izb=186842
A ‘false flag’ PR stunt. MSM need a connection between Srebrenica and Putin. One of examples of how they plan to use it:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/06/28/srebrenica-as-divided-as-ever-as-bosnian-serbs-put-up-anti-eu-posters-on/
“Serbs have put up anti-European Union posters with the words “Republika Srpska,” or “Serb Republic,” on a warehouse where Serb forces executed Muslim Bosnians during the 1995 genocide. Bosnia’s Muslims want the country to be in in the EU, while Serbs don’t.”
This of course wasn’t done by pro-Russian, anti-EU Serbs as they say, but exactly the opposite, anti-Russian crowd.
As you can see, they classify it as a genocide in the report – and say anti-eu, pro Putin posters on the site of the massacre.
So, this is how they imagine the sheeple should react to this: “You support Putin – you support genocide!”
There will be more of these ‘soft PR provocations’ there. They also need to present Putin and Russia as the enemies of Muslims , to the Muslim population worldwide.
Example: “Putin and Russia are backing genocidal Serbian policy towards Muslims.”
It all psy-ops. But once you ‘train your eye’ to these things they stick out like a skyscraper.
After reading this long post, it seems to me modern “democracy” is simply a process for “persecuted” or “dis-enfranchised” or “discriminated” minorities to turn themselves into the “majority”, then turn around and do the same on the new “minorities”…..
“Srebrenica” was a provocation planned by Washington and Sarajevo. Like the other false flag massacres staged by the NATO-backed Islamic terrorists under the command of Izetbegovic before, it was a PSYOP to justify NATO bombing raids and sanctions against the Serb people. The same war strategies of NATO in the Balkan wars (false flag massacres, nazi death squads, genocide) are now applied against the Russian people.
“Srebrenica Planned in Washington and Sarajevo”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1a-_LzxDyE
“Canadian (UN) soldier testimonies from book : The Sharp End” by James D. Davis
…
Bosnians murdered their own people in well-staged attacks for PR reasons”
http://www.balkanpeace.org/index.php?index=/content/testimonies/wctu/wctu02.incl
“Self-Inflicted Atrocities”
http://web.archive.org/web/20040812211736/http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/releases/1997/iran.htm
“Labeling the Serbs as Nazis
The Role of Ruder Finn, a US-Public Relation Firm”
http://www.shofar.de/labeling-e.html
“… current president of Srpska, Mr. Milorad Dodik who once represented moderate and pro-European forces among the Serbs …”
Does this mean that only “a moderate, pro-European” way of government is acceptable to the author? It sounds soo Fashington-like…
If so, it’s already there! It’s in the form of the so-called “The UN high representative”, but a NATO spy in actuality. Just look at their names on the internet. Is the author aware of who those maggots were / are?
There is also a miscalculation of the Sarajevo Serb population before & after the war:
(pre-war) was 29%, or 157,000, which means the total population was ~541,000
(post-war) is 12% (?!), or 35,000, which makes the total population of Sarajevo to be ~292,000 today. Impossible!
If we take into the account that most of the Muslim population gravitated towards Sarajevo after the war, then the total population of the city could have only increased, thereby making the percentage of Serbs way smaller – assuming there are 12,00 of them in Sarajevo left – which is overestimation; the number generally spoken about is ~5,000.
Counting the East Sarajevo – few residential areas built for the Serbs at the outskirts of the Sarajevo proper after the war – as a part of Sarajevo itself is deceiving because these areas are populated by the very Serbs expelled from Sarajevo after the Deyton Accords, according to which, the entire city was given to the Muslims.
We Serbs were expelled from all the major cities – Sarajevo, Zenica, Tuzla, Mostar, etc., with a clear attempt to demoralize us by depriving us from industry & economic perspectives, & force us into a quiet exodus to Serbia until the Muslims become simple majority, & then via the “one man, one vote” policy, Bosnia is turned to another Croatia, where we would lose all our rights by becoming minority.
“Going forward, the Serbs in Bosnia need to find a framework in which they can cooperate with the Federal authorities in Sarajevo without weakening the entity rights of Republika Srpska.”
Completely wrong! We were deprived from over 80 entity rights – army, court, border control, etc., everything that makes a state state – agreed upon in Dayton, & thus, lost most of our statehood, which was forcefully transferred to the federal level of Bosnia with a clear goal of turning Srpska into an empty shell which will simply be removed as an entity at the end of the game. A good example of this would be Naser Oric, the thug we talked about the other day. Well, the forcefully imposed federal BiH court rescued him from the Switzerland, & set him free at home.
That’s the kind of “cooperation” we are forced into by the UN HR & the US / GB embassies – which are the real power brokers in Bosnia!
“This fine balancing act has already been announced by the Serb co President of BiH and his Alliance for Change coalition members in Srpska.”
Talking about Mladen Ivanich? With the proven quisling & traitor like that – in fact, he’s the one who helped the transfer of most of the RS entity rights onto the BiH federal level – we need no enemies! He should have been executed long time ago for what he did! He basically anulled everything we fought for.
“The current SNSD government in Srpska led by Srpska President Dodik is largely playing into the nationalist trumphed because it has nothing to show on the economic and domestic front after 8 years in power and widespread ruin in that arena.”
Hmm? Sounds familiar? This rhetoric is straight from the US ambassador in Bosnia. It’s the IMF / WB / western banks that destroyed what was left of our economy. If it weren’t for Dodik’s close ties with Russia, we’d have fallen long time ago!
“Bosniak-Serb relations have been improving partly due to the efforts of SDS led moderates in Bosnia itself and partly due to the push by the current Serbian government to reconcile with it neighbors and put the ugly events during the Wars of the Yugoslav succession behind.”
Again, kind of talk straight from the US embassy! SDS “moderates” (= spineless sellouts) is party financed by the US, and the current gov in Serbia is completely controlled by the western intel agencies. We have never had such arrogant & obvious quislings & collaborators in our history!
The “Serb-Bosniak improvement” is by definition at the Serb expense, pushing us more & more into that Frankenstein of a country.
“This effort, currently let by Prime minister Vucic, has borne some fruit…”
Prime minister Vucic? That psychologically unstable obnoxious individual? That Vucic who during 90s threatened to “kill 100 Muslims for every killed Serb?” Does the author know who are advisers of that “prime minister?” Does, e.g., Tony Blair, murderer of the century, ring a bell? BTW, Vucic was vice-president of the Serbian Radical Party until 2004, when he met Richard Armitage, & has worked for our fiercest enemies ever since.
Putnik seems to be closely associated with the US intel agencies working on dissolving the Republic of Srpska in the gradual way – as they’ve been doing so far – but now with a willing quisling in Belgrade who always offers more than they ask him for. Supposedly this is a “balanced” talk, but just look what’s being done on the terrain. Vucic slowely transfered Kosovo to the Albanian mafia, & is now turning to finish the job in Bosnia for his zionazi masters.
well, I’m going to have to print this long article, but I have read the comments…and now..for my usual ignorant comment…I love Serbs…and I think I would love Serbia although I heard that in Serbia there is blood revenge..is that true ?
Its certainly a very different culture from Canada….
Hi Ann. That Serb you killed, where was he from? Somewhere south? Or Montenegro? But in any case, blood feuds do not relate to women – only men. So you should feel free to come to Serbia, I doubt that there would be revenge…
(a joke, of course)
Now serious – blood revenge is not common anymore, and when it was, it was only in communities in south, like Kosovo, Montenegro and Albania. To this date, this ‘custom’ exists only in some communities is Albania.
Vice news even went there to make documentary about that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTrUG5EszmQ
(although personally, I don’t trust a word these propagandists say)
Or Spiegel from last year:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/blood-feuds-still-prevalent-in-albania-a-973498.html
You are thinking of Albania (and on a small scale maybe Montenegro).There is a code of revenge in Albania among the Northern mountain Gheg clans.A few centuries ago Scotland have something like that among their Highland clans too.Just maybe not as long lasting.
There is a revenge culture, but only among the Albanians in Serbia (Kosovo). There is also some of that in rural areas of Montenegro, but that is then Montenegro, not Serbia.
Let us bring some more data into this equation, before we conclude „with certainty“ that poor, poor Serbs are de facto hated by the rest of the world and the world is hell-bent on destroying them. We are talking here about HEAVENLY NATION, as they like to reffer to themselves. Not only CHOSEN, but HEAVENLY!
– Approaching the year 1389. (when much disputed Battle of the Blackbird Field took place) the Serbs were NOT a coherent and united entity – they were the subjects of many fiefdoms, the relics of short-lived Tzardom of Dushan (1346-1371). It WAS NOT a national state in todays meaning of the word, as there were Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians and others (like in any other big country) living there. Those fiefdoms warred among each other for supremacy, and one of the most distinguished among them was KNEZ (duke) Lazar Hrebeljanovich, as his wife was the daughter of Tzar Dushan – named Milica. Serbs love to call Lazar „the tzar“, for it enforces their „grandeur“.
– Before that, in 1371. The battle at river Marica (or the Battle at Chernomen) took place, where Ottoman forces defeated cca 60-70 000 Serbs, as Serbs wanted to chase the Ottomans out of Balkans to Anadolia. It was a much more important battle then the one at the Field of Blackbird! It was THE REAL defeat of the Serbs!
– To be fair, in the meantime, there was another battle in 1386. (at Pločnik) where Ottomans were defeated, but Serbs often „forget“ to mention that even then it was with the assistance of Bosnian army that assured that victory!
– After the dust settled at the Kosovo Polje (the Field of Blackbird), there realy was a tie: – serbian commander, Lazar, dead and misteriously, ottoman sultan Murat the First, also dead – including Murat’s son Yakub – killed by his brother Bayezid during the same battle! Here, again, Serbs conveniently forget to mention the assistance of the Bosnian army, led by Vlatko Vukovich, the famous BOSNIAN commander and warrior
– Bayezid hastens to Edrene (Adrianopolis) to consolidate his governance now that he had no competition for the throne, and after a very short period of time – marriage between him and Olivera, the daughter of Lazar and Milica takes place! Interesting development!
– Seven years after Kosovo Battle (Blackbird), in 1396. European forces undertake one of the last large-scale crusades and we wittnes the Battle of Nicopolis (in Bulgaria) where Europeans were heavily defeated. But, there are issues……the Ottomans were about to loose, and at the critical moment of the battle, THE BROTHER IN LAW of Ottoman sultan Bayezid – Stefan, son of Lazar and Milica, brother of Olivera – enters the battle leading cca 5 000 (some say 1500) heavily armoured SERBIAN cavalry knights and insures the victory of the Ottomans. Encyclopaedia Brittannica: „By their victory at Nicopolis, the Turks discouraged the formation of future European coalitions against them. They maintained their pressure on Constantinople, tightened their control over the Balkans, and became a greater menace to central Europe.“
The Serbs DO NOT include the Battle of Nicopolis into their primary school text-books of history! Or any other school, for that matter. I wonder why?
I personaly believe that Milica struck the deal with Bayezid at the eve of the Kosovo Battle! And cemented it with her daughter’s marriage to Bayezid! The infamous Serbian hatred of the Turks is a fake. THEY ALWAYS COOPERATED! EVER SINCE!
Now, seeing that the new era has come, the SERBIAN (nominally orthodox) church developed the new theology, teaching the people that Lazar chose „the kingdom of heaven“ instead of this earthly suffering, hence the Serbs are of the heavens and from there originates their root. No Jesus, no God, no Creator, no nothing.
The religion of Serbs is SERBDOM, and other orthodox christian nations are very much mistaken believing that Serbs have the same theology! Why did the Patriarch of Bulgaria anathemise „Saint“ Sava, the originator of the Serbian church? And the patriarch died without annulling that anathema – which means that the anathema still stands! Did you people know that Bulgarians killed much more Serbian souls in the beginning of the 20th century then the Ottomans did for FIVE HUNDRED YEARS of their rule???? Their fellow „orthodox christians“! WHY?
“A lie, trait of our patriotism” – “We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others, we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else’s misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying is a trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate intelligence. We lie creatively, imaginatively and inventively.”
written by: late Dobrica Cosic, the Serbian writer, as well as a political and Serb nationalist theorist. He was the first president of the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia from 1992 to 1993. Admirers often refer to him as the “Father of the Nation”, due to his influence on modern Serbian politics and national revival movement in the late 1980s; opponents often use that term in an ironic manner.
This is one of the reasons WHY. You, fair reader, make an effort and read „NAČERTANIJE“ (nachertanye) – the set of instructions on how to achieve Serbian supremacism and superiority in the Balkans, „authored“ by the serb Ilija Garašanin by the end of the Ottoman empire, in which he says:
„It will not be a hard task for Serbia to influence the BOSNIAKS (e.a. NOT Serbs or Bosnians) of the eastern rite. Much more consideration must be given to win the CATHOLIC BOSNIAKS. These are headed by the Franciscan monks.“ It beautifully sums it up – NO SERBS IN BOSNIA PRIOR TO THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE!!!! Orthodox christians, YES, but NOT Serbs!
And Saker, my friend…..we muslims ARE AWARE of the future „alliance for survival“ between us and the orthodox christians…..most of us are. We know that we await the same Messiah – Jesus Christ, son of blessed virgin Mary, peace and blessings of God Allmighty be upon them both. Coming in PERSON! TO DAMASCUS! There are steps already being taken in that direction in Russia and other parts (Iran, Pakistan etc). It will happen, whether we like and believe in it or not!!
But, tell that to the SERBIAN CHURCH! They say that we in Bosnia work for the West….and where was „Bondsteel“ located so many years ago???? Who played every single step by the book to focus the attention of the world at the bosnian carnage,while NATO unceremoniously entered Romania and Bulgaria? Muslims in Bosnia? Bosniaks? Come on! Western politicians enjoyed the slaughter of muslims in Bosnia! Remember John Major and that hypocrite Francoise Mitterand?
Time to wake up from their slumber, forget about Alija Izetbegović and focus on WHO IS LEADING THEM AND WHERE! Whom the NATO-Turks help more – Bosniaks or Serbs – where is the bulk of their investments? How come that „Bosnia is not safe for their investments“, but Serbia is? The Turks made the first Serbian constitution upon releasing them from their bondage and at the same time SOLD (yes, for gold) Bosniaks to the Austro-Hungarians, after slaughtering our complete intelligentsia! That, among other things, because, (contrary to Serbs), muslim Bosniaks REALLY faught the Turks and defeated them heavily in 1831. At the very Kosovo! That’s a fact!
And tell them that the only thing that saved them as they are – was THE SHARIA LAW! Without it, there would’ve been NO christians in the Balkans after 500 years of Ottoman rule! That’s a fact, too! What impaling and mass-killing they dream about? What mass-expelling of Serbs – two times they RAN AWAY under Charnoyevich, as they sold themselves to the catholic Austrians! Too much of the „TALMUDISATION“ of the serbian collective mind!!!!
But, it cannot hurt to read the reports of e.g. Trotsky, reporting for Russian newspapers during the Balkan wars from Serbia and Macedonia. He actually URGED Russian parliament to condemn and punish Serbs for attrocities and slaughter they did upon innocent muslim civilians.
And, look what their old, old friends and tutors (the Brittish) do now: proposing the UN resolution condemning the serbian attrocities! What ever happened to the famous praise “The Serbs – The Guardians of the Gate”- written by R.G.D. Laffan – an Englishman? Serbs are angels, ALL others are devils…..
They say that muslims in Bosnia accepted islam for some benefits…….but, check the facts: muslims payed much higher taxes in comparison with non-muslims, they had to serve the military for at least 8 years, (non-muslims were not soldiers in the muslim state), endure the constant wars which Ottoman empire waged all the time, from which very few returned……and many other things. And yet, they remained muslims, though they had plenty of opportunities to „turn back“ to the religion of „their forefathers“! Bullsh*t!
Muslims in Bosnia are not angels. We face with anger and sorrow and deep regret each and every crime commited in our name, without our consent. That is deplorable and unexusable and those who did it must answer for that – if for nothing else, then for the sake of our children. That is the least we can do.
We, stating to be believers and submitters to One God MUST accept His commandments and apply them:
– to kill one innocent human being is the same as killing the whole of mankind
– there is NO compulsion in religion (Serbs know very well that thousands of non-muslim families after the Ottoman conquest harboured both muslims and christian members – NO ONE WAS FORCED TO ACCEPT ISLAM!
– The People of the Book, jews and christians, are to be respected and protected as much as possible, providing they do not turn on us
– when they become friends and allies of each other, muslims are FORBIDDEN to be part of that alliance, unless they want to loose their islam
– orthodox christians ARE NOT part of that alliance, they are RUM (Byzantium) and they are NOT arrogant
Tell the Serbs to rediscover what REAL orthodox christianity is. Criticism of Serbs is NOT anti-serbism. Tell them that „the kingdom of heaven“ is not in the stratosphere, but here on earth, where God Allmighty is the sole sovereign and His laws are supreme – the same as given to Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad – peace and blessings of God Allmighty be upon them all.
Tell them that they are ordinary people, like the rest of us (this planet already has many troubles with one non-ordinary people), and if they continue with their business of enemy production, not even the Russians will find it rational to defend the indefensible any longer! Orthodox or not! And then, maybe the prophecy of Tarabich will not come to pass – he said that „there will come the time when we Serbs will be so few that we will all stand under one pear-tree“. No need to come to that!!!!
This post is so full of fallacies that I don’t have enough place to go through all the points. So just a few here:
– there was no “bosnian” people back then, Bosnia was just a geographical area, populated by ethnic Serbs (yes, back then it was clearly Serbs, because all the slavic tribes called themselves “serb” which simply meant “slav” in old slavic) of different faiths (besides Orthodox there were Bogumils and some freshly converted Catholics). They wrote in old slavic cyrillic letters too, as visible in the oldest piece of bosnian writing from Ban Tvrtko to Dubrovnik. Also the guy you named above as a battle aid has a clearly serb name
– In the post-war croatian linguistics there are such crazy things as “croatian cyrillic”. That is cyrillic and they call it “croatian heritage”, I’m not kidding you!
http://www.dugirat.com/novosti/107-mediji/16920-najstariji-pronadeni-hrvatski-dokument-pisan-je-cirilicom
http://www.matica.hr/vijenac/488/Hrvatska%20%C4%87irilica%20dio%20je%20bogatstva%20hrvatske%20povijesne%20raznolikosti/
Can’t get crazier than that!!!
– your twisted description of the serbian church is just totally wrong. There is no “serbism” or anything “heavenly” in there, it’s just the same as it ever since Kyrill and Method and Serbs are still beliving in the holy trinity. The only difference to the original faith was the addition of saints worship, which was a takeover from paganism and way older than all we discuss here
– forced islamisation under the Ottomans is extensively documented, as are many massacres etc. Just look at Cele-Kula for a nice example of turkish “tolerance” – a fort built of serb skulls for bricks, still standing today:
https://www.google.de/search?q=cele+kula&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=hquSVf_eGoO7ygODx6Io&ved=0CCEQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=837
– the battles where Serbs fought on turkish side was AFTER the Serbs became turkish vassals
And so on, to put it short, it’s a bunch of legends and deliberate misinterpretations.
As for that “we can all be friends” nonsense, here’s the historic example from the time back then as described in Gorski Vijenac:
“Ferat, zacirski kavazbasa
Jok,Serdare, ne ugadjes putom!
Vjera turska podnijet ne moze
da se haba dokle glava skoci.
Iako je zemlja pouzana,
dvije vjere mogu se sloziti,
ka u sahan sto se corbe slazu.
Mi zivimo kao dosad bratski,
pa ljubovi vise ne trebuje.
Knez Janko
Bismo, Turci, ali se ne moze!
Smijesna je ova nasa ljubav.
Grdno nam se oci susretaju,
ne mogu se bratski pogledati,
no krvnicki i nekako divlje:
oci zbore sto im veli srce.”
That answer is true, now as then.
“NO SERBS IN BOSNIA PRIOR TO THE DISINTEGRATION OF THE OTTOMAN EMPIRE!!!! Orthodox christians, YES, but NOT Serbs!”
Oh really? No Serbs in Bosnia prior to Ottomans? LOL. Well tell me, who and what exactly are Bosnians? Did they arrive to Balkans alongside Serbs and Croats? What language has been spoken there since Southern Slavs came to Balkans? Croatian? Bosniak??? Or Serbian?
Ok, so Croats speak Croatian. Bosniaks speak what, Bosniak? And Bosnian Serbs speak what, Serbian, Bosniak, Bosnian-Serbian dialect? I speak all of these languages, along with Slovenian, German, and English. In their various dialects. Yup, I’m good when it comes speaking different languages.
One doesn’t have to be Chomsky to spot the linguistic similarities between Bosniak, Croatian, or Serbian. Why? Because -bingo!- it’s the same language, just different dialect. Like American English dialect on the East Coast or down in Mississipi.
So how can Croats, Bosnian(k)s, and Serbs be different, nationally?? I mean seriously, that would be the first example of supposedly completely different nations speaking the same language from the get-go. Doesn’t that sound at least minutely strange and rather illogical?
Unless you know some super duper secret historical texts that only you know about.
What, did the bad, bad genocidal Serbs work on exterminating ancient Croatian and Bosniak languages since early middle ages and enforced upon everybody their Southern Slavic dialect??
All these divisions are artificial, because had that been true, that Croats, Serbs, and Bosniaks are so damn different, they would’ve spoken very different languages. But they don’t. Thus it’s clear the divisions were made artificially. The Austro-Hungarians did, on one hand, a damn good job to “educate” the Bosnian Croats and Muslims, that they are not the same peoples as Serbs. On the other hand, they did a poor job, linguistically speaking. All of them speak the same language and not even shoving down the Croats throat the Latin instead of Cyrillic script could’ve masked the fact they speak the same language. It’s just the different dialect of the same language.
So you can package the common language and culture with different labels, like Croatian, Bosniak, Montenegrin etc.., the fact remains: THEY SPEAK THE SAME LANGUAGE. Thus they have always been the same people, just living in different yet neighboring locations.
I forgot the translation for the rest in the still missing post, sorry:
“FERAT ZACIR, KAVAZBASA
No, no, Sirdar, you’re missing your target!
The Turk cannot let his faith be blasphemed
as long as his head is on his shoulders.
Though this country is a bit too narrow,
two faiths can live together side by side,
just as two soups can be cooked in one pot.
Let us live on together like brothers,
and we will need no other love indeed!
KNEZ JANKO
We would like to, Turks, but it cannot be!
This love of ours is a strange kind of love.
Our eyes do clash in a terrible way.
They do not look at each other friendly,
but vengefully and even savagely.
The eyes do say what the heart commands them.”
As long as that doesn’t change, there will be no reconciliation.
For those interested in the historical enmity between orthodox christians and muslims there from a few centuries ago, the lines above are from one of the most revered old works from Montenegrin/Serbian patriotic literature. It describes the mood from back then quite well:
http://www.rastko.org.rs/knjizevnost/njegos/njegos-mountain_wreath.html
One more for the russian and bulgarian readers – here’s the scan of the original book in old serbo-slavic from the 18th or early19th century, which you will be able to read and understand instantly for the most part. Much nicer than the english translation, which can only partly convey the feel.
http://www.njegos.org/gvijenac/index.htm
But besides that, it easily proves how much the austrian agents totally perverted our language within a mere century. This will help understand how all those artificial new folks on the Balkans came into being within just a few centuries.
As we are about to use poetic litterature as a „historical“ documents (typical serbian approach), so be it:
You know, Bosniak, not so long ago
I swear by the whole world
Not fifteen years have past
When in our Bosnia the Proud
And in heroic land of Herzeg
From Trebinje to the Gate of Brod
There were NO Serbs or Croats
And today, through their whims
Both aliens are comfortable amongst us
We are pressed by our „guests“
Who want to steal our most holy possession
Our NAME, proud and dear
Written by Bosniak Safvet-beg Bašagić “Poem to the Bosniak” in 1891.
And not only Bosniaks. What about contemporary poets, writers and artists of Montenegro (orthodox christian) screaming to heavens, trying to preserve their name, their church and their history from the same looters.
What about Macedonians (another orthodox christian people) whom the Serbs call „SOUTH SERBS“ and call their language „serbian with an impediment“???? What an arrogance, my God!
That’s Talmud, not the Bible.
Of course the Serbs are angry. Their programming cannot accept ANYTHING that colludes with it. They will „eat grass and tree-bark“, but not change „one jot or tittle“ in their narrative – for them, it equals the Doomsday! All others are liars, only they are „truthlovers“. Reminds one of one of the Middle Eastern „democracies“!
Nobody can rationally hate the Serbs as a collective. It is insane. IF somebody hates them, it is because of what they DO, not because of what they are.The fact is, they passionatelly hate everybody else. All others are but obstructions on their way to glory, to greatness and power. Everybody else needs a PERMITION issued by some Serb to live on „the serbian soil“ – in Trieste (Italy), in Tokyo (Japan) or in any other part of the globe. Others are….. cockroaches
WHAT WOULD DONETSK AND LUGANSK DO WITHOUT THEIR ASSISTANCE?? Surrender, that’s what.
Oh, not to forget, somebody mentioned „Gorski vijenac“, authored by Petar Petrovich Njegosh, church patriarch and ruler of Montenegro (19th century). It is the manual for genocide – no more, no less. The most anti-islamic author on the face of the earth. Confirmed by Montenegrinian learned men like Slavko Perovich, Novak Kilibarda and others (orthdox christians).
Kilibarda: „There were no Croats or Serbs in Bosnia during the Ottoman rule…………..“!!!!
One more thing: In 1907. Austro-hungarian authorities in Bosnia officially proclaimed that BOSNIAN language is FORBIDDEN for further use. Last time I checked, no one in his right mind forbids something that does not exist. Dear reader, do not trust me! Everything I write about – open your mind and check for yourself.
Today, there are Serbs and Croats in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is an undeniable fact and we live with it. Even if someone would like to change that, it is impossible – a person is that what he/she says and feels like. No force can change that. There are also Bosniaks, thanks to the Allmighty and it looks like He’s OK with that. Otherwise, I don’t know why He preserved us from their genocides!
@T2015
„As for that “we can all be friends” nonsense…………………“
Those are not my words. I am not that weak, as your „svetosavsko“ programming forces you to conclude. No, sir! I am sane enough to understand that when someone says „good morning“ to me, it doesn’t imply that he is weak and hence to be subdued. You should try to understand that NOBODY NEEDS to be your friend. Now less then ever.
You mention Čele kula (chele tower)? OK. On May 31st 1809. the battle of Chegar took place between Turks and Serbs in the vicinity of Niš. Being unable to win over much stronger turkish forces, serbian commander vojvoda Stevan Sindjelich shot from his pistol on the underground powder-depot, causing huge explosion which killed ALL of the serbian soldiers and many Turks. After the battle, the commanding turkish pasha ordered the construction of the tower in which the skulls (952) of the dead soldiers were inbuilt, as a warning to the other Serbs. You see anything religious about it?
But, you conveniently “forget” to mention what preceded this, in the same month and the same year?! Care to discus the report of the official record-keeper and biographer of the serbian supreme commander Karadjordje? His name was Antonije Protich, and he wrote that after the muslim civilians, women and children were promised the safe passage from the surrounded town of Sjenica, upon their exiting the town a slaughter ensued in which „not less then 2500 heads of women, children, elders and a few of males were cut and put on the wooden sticks“. Those are his words. Your Vuk Karadjich called it „the biggest shame in the history of Serbs“! Forced islamisation, is that it??
You posted the link
https://www.google.de/search?q=cele+kula&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=hquSVf_eGoO7ygODx6Io&ved=0CCEQsAQ&biw=1600&bih=837
which, according to you, PROVES the forced islamisation. Dear reader, open the link and see just the pictures of that tower. What does it proove? Talmud, again…..
Hey, it wasn’t me who said “let’s all be friends”, it was your conclusion in the post above. Followed by some nonsense about “serbs should re-discover the real orthodox church” and such.
It’s really funny that you are quoting Safvet-beg Bašagić, because first he claimed he was initially a Serb, then later that he was a Croat and only much later did he become “pure muslim”, with his extremist view as seen in those rhymes above. Shell we just call his outings a bunch of nonsense from a whacky source?
Go figure.
Here from croatian Wiki:
https://hr.wikiquote.org/wiki/Safvet-beg_Ba%C5%A1agi%C4%87
“”Svestranog i zaslužnog Safvet-bega Bašagića (1870-1934.), pjesnika, prevodioca, učenjaka, orijentalistu, društvenog radnika i političara neki povjesnici književnosti svrstavaju među hrvatske realiste, dok ga drugi smatraju pripadnikom hrvatske Moderne. Svojevremeno se njegovo pjesničko djelo vrlo cijenilo, ali danas se mnogo više cijeni njegov rad kao učenjaka, kulturnog povjesničara i orijentalista. On je hrvatski muslimanski preporoditelj, koji je izvršio velik utjecaj na mlađe muslimanske generacije.” ~ Ferid Karihman[3]
“Pa tko je bio Safvet-beg Bašagić?? On pripada u brojnu porodicu intelektualaca preporoditelja muslimanskog stanovništva BiH koji su koncem prošlog i početkom ovog stoljeća djelovali ističući svoju hrvatsku nacionalnu pripadnost uz pažljivo njegovanje svoje posebnosti-pripadnosti tradicijskom i kulturnom krugu Islama. U literaturi se ovaj preporoditeljski pokret u kojem sudjeluju osvjedočeni Hrvati-muslimani, naziva Hrvatski kulturni pokret BiH muslimana ili Hrvatski muslimanski napredni pokret ili jednostavno Preporodni pokret.” ~ Mirsad Bakšić[4]
“Kod Bašagića bošnjaštvo nije nacionalnost nego regionalnost; kad govori i pjeva o svome jeziku i svojoj zemlji, onda je to hrvatski jezik i hrvatska zemlja, a Bošnjaci su samo div-junaci one zemlje, koja je davala Turskoj kroz stoljeća velikane, “po kojima Zapad-Istok nas poznaje”. Upravo kao Dubrovčani, koji pjevaju i govore hrvatskim jezikom, a veličaju slobodu republike sv. Vlaha, veličaju Dubrovnik kao tlo slobode.” ~ Alija Nametak”
Quite a dense craziness to read there (croat-muslim, croatian-muslim, maybe just muslim? And then he states “there were never Serbs or Croats in Bosnia? Hmm…). Also it seems like Croats don’t view him as very “bosnian” at all, though they might not like the quote of his you posted above ;)
I also fail to see how a croat like you considers himself competent regarding islamic bosnian matters. If you allow, I strongly doubt you ever read the Koran to begin with.
Noone argued there were Bonians or Croats geographically, it’s just that there were no such nationalities there, those were just states. You would certainly not say that the Texans and the Californians are two different peoples? Or Bavarians and Berlin dwellers? That’s not worth being called an argument at all.
By the way I am not adherent to the orthodox church or any other church for that matter, that much about your “svetosavsko programming”. I am just a keen student of history (the real, not the fantasized one).
Of course Macedonians are former Serbs, their language is more like the old Serb-slavic then what they speak in Serbia today. Only thanks to their closeness to Bulgaria could they keep the language, otherwise they’d speak Turkish or Greek today, or the corrupt “serbo-croatian” concoction of Karadzic and his austrian goons.
Noone disputes that “Gorski Vijenac” is quite violent, as said I posted it so the foreign readers can see the MOOD of the people back then, on both sides. I also explicitly said that it is serb *patriotic* literature and a play, so way do you feel the need to emphasize that yet again as if I never said that?
Cele-kula proves the cruelty and bestiality of the Turks, since it is a still visible, real example. And it was certainly not built for Serbs (who knew the Turks good enough after centuries under their rule) but as a display for foreign merchants who travelled those areas while trading with Asia/Africa via Bosporus. That was the little “silk road” from back then.
I also fail to see anything “Talmud” about it, not that the Talmud even mentions architecture anywhere. It was merely a book of laws for Jews back then. First question, have you ever bothered reading it?
Here you go, quote me the part of the Talmud you are referring to:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/FullTalmud.pdf
About forced islamisation – “force” means more than just a gun pointed at one’s head. Force is also soft-power, regarding economic and political status for “citizens”.
Another bit from Wiki:
“Economic and social gain was also an incentive to become a Muslim: conversion to Islam conferred economic and social status. Under the feudal system imposed by the Ottomans, only those who converted to Islam could acquire and inherit land and property, which accorded them political rights and status usually denied to non-Muslims. A number of Christian nobles, however, were able to retain their estates early on in the Ottoman rule by fighting on behalf of the Empire, suggesting that holding on to their property was not a major incentive for early conversions to Islam. At a lower socioeconomic level, most new converts to Islam were able to turn their holdings into freehold farms. At the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder were the serfs, who constituted the majority of the population and were predominantly Christians. In addition, only Muslims could hold positions in the Ottoman state apparatus, which conferred special privileges and a much higher standard of living. Muslims also enjoyed legal privileges: Christians could not sue Muslims and their testimony could not be used against Muslims in court.[4] However, these incentives would not necessarily explain why the Bosnians and Albanians mostly converted to Islam, but most other Balkan groups (Serbs, Croats, Greeks, Romanians, and Bulgarians) did not.”
Enough force for most of the little people, even if there was no physical force involved in particular cases. As for the rest, I hope you don’t want to make me post a bunch of official history books here. Everyone can google it easily if interested.
Let’s not even talk about the turkish practice of stealing Serbian children and making them into turkish mercenaries called “Janichari”. Some five million Turks who know they are of Serbian origin are proof enough, just ask them. Hard historical facts.
Boris, what do you do when you are not trying to explain to the world how evil the Serbs actually are?
Looks like you were quite impressed by Serbs, I rarely see a person so obsessed with us.
And writing every other word in caps gives impression you’re quite hysterical about all this. Then again, when you consider the content of your posts, you might well be.
——————————————–
As the Empire falls, there will be more and more texts like this everywhere. People sense that the balance of powers is changing and that the existing order is changing. So this is time for them to ‘whitewash’ their biographies. Like this:
—————————————————–
I wasn’t aware, up to this moment, that the West (and Turks too!) were on our side, all this time!
You should try writing novels on ‘alternate history’. Those sell well. People like to think about ‘what if’ scenarios.
Or better yet, when you have such wonderful study of Serbs, you should mail that to all the western embassies so that our allies know who they supported all this time.
You must continue your quest for truth! The world needs to know about the evil Serbs! Make a Resolution and send it to United Nations to approve it.
(oh wait, the Brits already beat you to it!)
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics.php?yyyy=2015&mm=06&dd=16&nav_id=94450
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And for MODs. Although I see this as a world class bigotry:
” IF somebody hates them, it is because of what they DO, not because of what they are.The fact is, they passionatelly hate everybody else. ”
I am glad it’s all there, as it would be a little bit harder to spot the hypocrisy without it.
Cheers everybody,
– an evil, clerofascistic, chauvinistic Serb by his genocidal name Sinisa
More on turkish kidnapping of children:
“Besides the peaceful spreading of Islam, forcible measures were also adopted, which were used eventually to increase the Moslem population of South Eastern Europe. In this respect the notorious system of devshirme or “tribute in blood” immediately springs to mind. Devshirme is the Ottoman term for the periodic levy of Christian children for training to fil the ranks of Janissaries, and to occupy posts in the service of the court and the administration. Literally the term means “collecting of Dhimma children” or the collecting of children of those under Moslem protection. It is uncertain when it started, but the first contemporary reference is from saloniki in 1395. Most of the Christian population of Rumeli (European Turkey) were subject to devshirme, but exemptions were made (eg. children of craftsmen and the urban population were excluded as were the islands of Rhodes and Chios because of voluntary submission and guardians of passes or miners because of their valuable service to the Ottoman state).”
A few more details…………
There was an inscription on that Čele-kula, written upon construction, which read:
„We Cut The Heads Of Men, In Battle. Don’t You Ever Again Think Of Cutting The Heads Of Children And Women“ – inscription later on destroyed by serbian „heroes“.
Why is it always Čele-Kula? In a situation where an oppressor systematicaly forces you to change the religion and decimates your numbers – there must be many, many more similar objects and documents as proofs! Isn’ t it so? Where are they?
„Systematic deletion of the segments of the past that is not, after all, so glorious and pleasant to one’s ear is not a novelty in Serbia, the same as pressures on few individual opposing the trend. So, contemporaries were strongly accusing Vuk Karadzic of revealing the ghastly details of the massacre conducted by Serb rebels once they entered Sjenica. Milan Milicevic said it was great shame that he /Karadzic/ shared this information with the famous German historian, Leopold von Ranke. To this, Karadzic retorted, “True, that’s a shame for Serbs but doing it was also shameful. And the things that have been done should not be hidden from history.” This from the author of the first serbian dictionary.
However, not many followed Karadzic’s example in this regard. According to Dubravka Stojanovic, Serb history has been perceived as a kind of military training. Therefore, it has been both recorded and lectured in the spirit of apologetics of nation-state, complete identification with the predominant ethnic community and spread of hatred for minorities and neighbors. Serb crimes have been hushed up, whereas those committed by others exacerbated. And in all this, politicians have been trying to catch up with intellectual elites. Nothing changed after the World War II the victims of which have been arbitrarily and misguidedly assessed for decades – all this resulted in the terrifying bidding over the number of killed, which was turned into propaganda mechanism for preparation of a new war.
But the things are even worse than that in Serbia. For, paradoxically, denial has some advantages. An individual’s inability to face up the crime he has committed or the crime committed on his behalf testifies that he is ashamed of it, sees it as something utterly rotten and wishes it had never happened at all.
Is that the case in Serbia?
I wouldn’t say so. “Knife, barbed wire, Srebrenica,” crowds are shouting in stadiums. “Ratko Mladic cuts throats clean,” says a graffito on the railway station. Those creepy examples taken from the anthology of modern Serb popular lyrics testify of worrisome truth: many people know exactly what happened. And they regret not. On the contrary, they regret that the crime is over. That’s the worst outcome of the cumulative warring propaganda according to which denial of crime is nothing but benign pastime of chauvinistic intellectuals. Their denial to look the truth into the eyes is after all just a weird testimony that the truth exists, that they know about it and are ashamed of it. True, that’s an embarrassing testimony of the same moral universe we all share.
Therefore, deniers are not the real problem here. Were they not operating in the society plunged into the crime they would have sooner or later creep under the stone from which they had crept out. This is why in Serbia – unlike in France, Germany or a number of other countries – denial of crime has not become a crime itself. Instead of going to jail, deniers are bestowed literary awards and granted appanage. Denial has become a cultural model that reproduces itself and denies all those who thought that the change of generations would bring about a change. Instead of a change, new verses are added to the old ones such as the Belgrade Syndicate’s popular song “Beef” picturing a young, autarchic Serbia and its distorted perception of the world’s expectations from it. “No chance that I give up Gucha, kaimak and plum brandy/ and tolerate Croats, Borka and gay parades/ Fuck those Levy’s documentaries/ I am not ashamed of my origins!” In the country where many “bravely” look the truth into the eyes and accept the “bitter kismet” of crime for the sake of attainment of their ethno-nationalistic goal, the problem is not in denial of crime but in active or passive support for crime. Rather than investigating the phenomenology of crime we should, therefore, investigate the origins of people’s enchantment with brute power and the misery it inflicted. What force makes people identify themselves with the policy of crime by their own free will?“
LOL, you just can’t stop posting legends and nonsensical claims.
Hard proof – barbed wire was shot from the INSIDE, while the imagined “prisoners” were the people outside of it. Thankfully the Serbian TV was filming the western agents… err TV-journalists who concoted that fallacy.
http://emperors-clothes.com/Film/judge.htm
Srebrenica hoax was already explained in detail here, but once more for good measure:
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/sreb/vid.htm
http://emperors-clothes.com/sreb/location.htm
Enjoy the reading. Rant on if you want more.
Serbophobia is strong in this one!
Soros funded NGOs you must seek!
Great amount of money they would offer!
“Why is it always Čele-Kula? In a situation where an oppressor systematicaly forces you to change the religion and decimates your numbers – there must be many, many more similar objects and documents as proofs! Isn’ t it so? Where are they?”
– Want more proof? Go talk to our cousins, the Bulgarians. I’m sure they’ll be more than happy to show you proof. A lot of proof in fact.
And in your last paragraph, just switch the words like “Serbia”, “Serbians”, etc with “Croatia”, “Croatian”, etc, and you get painted picture of the situation in Croatia.
In my posts I have pointed out lots of informations, with exact dates and years – which makes it a piece of cake to dispute, if incorrect. This is Internett and I write in (I believe) understandable English, so the readers of different nations can easily check my data.
The only answers so far from (presumably) Serbian “experts” were – ad hominem. Crazy, insane, illusions……capital letters……ya-da, ya-da, ya-da.
I feel sad when somebody quotes Wikipedia as a source of information and then claims to be historian. That is really regrettable.
This was a fruitless effort from the start, and I knew it.
What is important is this: Montenegrians will be what they want to be, as well as Macedonians, Albanians and others who are forced to endure “the greatness of Serbian empire”. So will Bosniaks, in Bosnia and Herzegovina and in Sanjak and there is not much you can do about it. In fact, you can only do less by each day passing. Yes, the history can again serve you with the opportunity to try and destroy us – but the next time it will not come that cheap. We may be destroyed, but as Bosniaks. You had the chance in the 90s and you blew it – the real motive was looting, rape and indiscriminate murder. You interpreted the absence of the acts of revenge – as weakness. That is naïve to the extreme, not to say stupid. It was a wish to stop the vicious circle.
When you were bombed by the US, the Russians and the Chinese were rather silent. Not because of the weakness, but because YOU WERE MADDENED AND BECAUSE YOU BLEW IT. Remember that.
I agree on one thing you said:
I think you are preaching to the wrong audience. You see, when you speak to the western audience. you keep repeating the mantra they’ve been hearing for the past 20 years. But then again, when you are speaking to the Serbian audience – most of them know what time it is, and won’t engage you in discussion on this level of reasoning.
A wise man once said that ‘Hell is a place where there is no reason’. And you are constantly trying to drag the reader into that Hell.
I have a perfect site for you. It’s called e-novine.com. There, you can read about Nazi Serbs being the subhuman kind, the warmongers that try to take over the free world and kill all non Serbs. There, Naser Oric is hero, as well as Izetbegovic and all others. So, I think you people would have a lot to talk about and many common interests. Like Serbophobia, for example.
There is also this great site on which an expert historian exposes our secret plan for Greater Serbia: https://greatersurbiton.wordpress.com/
(by the way, are you this Marko by any chance?)
So, you guys should get together and make a REAL history of the Serbs, publish that as a book, and give it to us to educate ourselves in the right way.
And know that the hate in you will suck you in like a black hole. Remember that.
First, I’m neither serbian nor a “history expert”. I said I am a keen student of history.
That aside, so far you haven’t provided even a hint of real material to talk about, nor did you answer any of my questions, nor did you react to clearly proven refutes of your crazy claims etc.
Pray tell, when in all of history did Serbs ever try to establish an “empire”, when did they ever invade foriegn lands?
Stop referring to yourself as a “bosniak”, since your name says you are not a muslim. If you are talking about old bosnian natives (who just so happened to write in cyrillic letters and had serbian names), those were correctly called “Bosnjani”.
As for your constant references to genocide, it is the Serbs who never in history massacred any of their neighbours and co-habitants in any organized way. As opposed to say Croats who just recently “cleansed” their country of quater of a million Serbs, or nazi Albanians who also managed to make quarter of a million Serbs run away from their homeland, as opposed to countless deaths in WW2 via the hands of croatian nazis and the bosnian muslim Handjar-SS division under “Mufti of Jerusalem” Al-Hosseini. The numbers are well-known and they tell the true story, despite of whatever you or I may want to think.
So stop making yourself laughable, like for example when quoting that false convert above as some expert on muslims or on Bosnia – that is just ridiculous. Even if there were less informed people here, you’d have no audience for such utterly nonsensical claims, with zero proof to back up any of it. You’re just full of hate and hot air.
ko o čemu, Srbi o poštenju…
@Boris: Sir, I applaud you with utmost respect! Thanks for the information and sources you provided us for further “investigation” on our own. A very distinct and clear provided source is worth more than thousand rants one has to read through (luckily, it’s always the same names that reoccur on this page, so it became very easy where “to watch out” and where to “let go”).