Dear friends,
I am still sick, so I cannot write much, but I am listening to interviews and reading analytical reports. I have a couple of questions I would love to get answers to:
1) did the Ukie ATC ever explain why MH17 was told to take a route to the north of the normal route and at a lower altitude?
2) does anybody know if the transponder of MH17 continued working up to the moment of impact of the missile which hit it?
3) how are these events seen by the Malaysian media, which side does a majority the Malaysian media blame for what happened?
If you come across anything which could reply to these questions I would be most grateful.
Thanks a lot and kind regards to all,
The Saker
The Russian propaganda should focus on one very simple and obvious contradiction in the US narrative.
– The Americans are saying that the BUK system is so complex that the rebels couldn’t possibly be operating it on their own without Russian help. This means that whoever shot down the plane must have been an expert.
– The very first thing said expert must learn in his education is that you don’t shoot down planes at 10km altitude, because the chances are high that it will be a passanger plane.
– Ergo the shootdown of the plane couldn’t possibly have been a mistake. Ergo it must have been on purpose. Do Novorussians or Russians have a motive to shoot down a passanger plane? No, they don’t have a motive.
Additional arguments:
– Motorola’s wife already a month ago informed us that the Ukies were trying to bait Novorussians to shoot down a civilian airplane.
– The sky over Donbass was a frequent route for civilian aircraft.
– The expert who operated the Novorussian BUK undoubtedly had to know about this, and this even more decreases the likelihood that Novorussia shot down the plane by accident.
I think this argument is pretty damn strong and should be focused on by Russian propaganda.
@Saker:
***1) did the Ukie ATC ever explain why MH17 was told to take a route to the north of the normal route and at a lower altitude?***
They said it was because of the weather. There is no confirmation of this, neither from Cockpit association nor from the Malaysians. So far I haven’t seen an explanation why the plane flew lower.
Our guys posted all over the web that the plane inexplicably flew too north. MSM responded by saying that the sky over Donbass is a normal route and was frequently used.
My argument is that actually the MSM with their argument (“Donbass route is normal”) is playing against their own narrative, because their narrative becomes contradictory due to the reasons I explained above.
I suggest you look at Pepe Escobar’s article addressing many of these questions (Asia Times:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
Why did LifeNews just switch back into calling it Donetsk Oblast?
If it is not Rope a Dope happening now then Putin is being blackmailed.
My reading so far …
1) Shifted due to NATO/Canadian based jet war games in Romania(?)area to the south.
2) Transponder of MH17 continued working — assume ‘yes’ as flight tracking was operating (e.g. Flightradar24.com)
3) Malaysian media …?
Seems Malysian view is more measured, without prejudices:
“Meanwhile, Najib hit out at the geopolitical chess game of some countries which resulted in innocent Malaysians becoming victims.
http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v7/bu/newsbusiness.php?id=1055005
Here are some important articles and photos, videos related to debunking BUK 312.
BUK 312 refuted
The BUK is a spook. It seems to belong to the Ukes.
It doesn’t matter. Never mind. Whatever. New meme on the way.
The millions of falsehoods have taken and will forever take their toll.
“Putin did it. They are terrorists.” That was the goal in the propaganda arena. It will stick. “He who says it first is right”—Goebbels.
And it also covers up the new offensive against Lugansk.
Tangentially, it distracted from Israel’s attack on Gaza.
That’s quite a triple buy for your bucks. Death in three places with one missile shot. Friggin aces! High fives! Fist pumps all around, bro!
The Hegemon is happy on this Sunday. The day is stolen from God and humanity. The MH-17 was a splendid thing for the Satanists.
http://www.rense.com/general96/dutch.html
The plane had corpses in the cargo hold, infected with a deadly contagious disease. Same goes for the blood sacs.
Russia and NATO got wind of it and shot down the plane, intending to sterilise the infectious agent with the heat but a bomb went off onboard, bringing down the contagious corpses intact, to spread disease.
I’ve been reading articles and watching commentary but I haven’t come across any sensible statements coming from Kiev – let alone them bothering to give answers. And why should they? The West haven’t demanded them.
They certainly don’t need them. Hard facts, apart from being inconvenient in this case, are boring and often require a considerable effort on the part of the viewer/reader to keep track of them and make the necessary connections. Emotions on the other hand follow a nicely predictable pattern of behaviour. And the West are experts at playing with emotion and taking every possible advantage of deep-rooted prejudices. And I can’t say I am aware of any other prejudices more prevalent in the West than are the ones concerning Russia.
Unfortunately I’m quite confident that whoever masterminded the taking down of this flight did so with very specific reasons in mind and I’m afraid facts, evidence and witness testimony have all been rendered immaterial. It’s quickly becoming obvious that the people who “know” or at least intuit the truth need no convincing and the ones who do can never be convinced.
—————————————–
These past few days I’ve been silently fuming with anger, desperation and total disgust. I had finally begun to feel a bit optimistic about the situation in Novorussia, seeing how the Ukies’ elaborate attempts at “surprising” the militia had failed so miserably. And then this happened. We have to admit that this is a big blow. And we still have no way of telling just how big a blow it’ll turn out to be.
RE: your illness..it is because of your position in this play on the planet as facilitator of one of the most important blog information sources that the pressure is on. ( I have to cut and paste in order to send info to friends in China because that government blocks all urls that have the word blog). Perhaps you might take 10 or 20 minutes a day to reset yourself in prayer not as a “good” thing to do but as an absolute necessity for yourself and the world. Again it is the role you play..I am lucky I suppose..not important enough to attract the heat on any level. Be well, Saker
I have to think that at the Kremlin, what is happening is ‘everything’ as opposed to ‘nothing’ as it appears on the surface.
Evidence of Kiev treachery distributed to Europe in backchannels.
Lining up of political and humanitarian Novorussia support from South America and elsewhere.
Documents prepared, full recognition of Novorussia from Odessa to Kharkiv, backdated.
Guerilla actions in Ukraine.
Ultimatum text to Kiev: cease fire to allow the international investigation to proceed within 24 hours or the consequences will be immediate and irreversible.
CDN says:
Sherlock Homes once solved a case because a dog did not bark in the night.
What is strange is about the MH17 incident is that 3 days after the event there have been no eyewitness accounts of a missile contrail.
There are witness reports of 3 loud explosions, of seeing fighter jets at FL330, of viewing objects and people descending from the point of impact but there has been no reports of a missile contrail arcing up toward MH17. And as a YouTube search will confirm the BUK missile leaves a very visible and thick contrail.
The fact that Ukie state security has collected and impounded ground ATC records and ground radar tracks also is suggestive of an attempt to conceal evidence.
It is speculated that this evidence would confirm that the Ukies were shadowing MH17 with other aircraft to gain access to the conflict cauldron area to obtain recon data on ground force dispositions.
A Planeful of Corpses:
“the US and UK governments have decided to fly a “dummy plane” full of corpses so as not to alert the terrorists while avoiding casualties.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scandal_in_Belgravia
Beyond bizarre!
T1
the rebels need to transform into a real army in the next months. Their numbers must grow. I am not Russian but I beleive that American imperialism must be crushed. I hope they will manage to liberate Odessa in the future.
Airline Horror Spurs New Rush to Judgment
is an interesting report re Us intelligence [maybe the Ukies did it].
U.S. Government Lied to Pretend that Accidental Russian Shootdown of Commercial Plane Was Intentional … Three Decades Ago
The U.S. press might pause to recall how it’s been manipulated by the U.S. government in the past, including three decades ago by the Reagan administration twisting the facts of the KAL-007 tragedy.
In that case, a Soviet fighter jet shot down a Korean Air Line plane on Sept. 1, 1983, after it strayed hundreds of miles off course and penetrated some of the Soviet Union’s most sensitive airspace over military facilities in Kamchatka and Sakhalin Island.
Over Sakhalin, KAL-007 was finally intercepted by a Soviet Sukhoi-15 fighter. The Soviet pilot tried to signal the plane to land, but the KAL pilots did not respond to the repeated warnings. Amid confusion about the plane’s identity — a U.S. spy plane had been in the vicinity hours earlier — Soviet ground control ordered the pilot to fire. He did, blasting the plane out of the sky and killing all 269 people on board.
The Soviets soon realized they had made a horrendous mistake. U.S. intelligence also knew from sensitive intercepts that the tragedy had resulted from a blunder, not from a willful act of murder ….
But a Soviet admission of a tragic blunder regarding KAL-007 wasn’t good enough for the Reagan administration, which saw the incident as a propaganda windfall. At the time, the felt imperative in Washington was to blacken the Soviet Union in the cause of Cold War propaganda and to escalate tensions with Moscow.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-19/us-government-lied-pretend-accidental-russian-shootdown-commercial-plane-was-intenti
T1
The paths for the AMS to KUL flights for the previous 10 days, as they appear on Flightaware have been posted in many places. None of them went through that area, they all went over the Azov Sea.
What would be needed is to see the path that was followed over a larger period to see if it’s true that sometimes they go through that area.
The long-decomposed bodies/bodies drained of blood/large amounts of blood serum stories have to be closely followed.
Various credible “conspiracy theories” are in play dependent on the findings.
Regarding (1) and (2):
First, Ukranian military “leaked” to the rebels that they were gonna send a war jet in the said route at a given time. Then, no war jet ever went up into the air; instead, they diverted the 777 into the path.
In order for the 777 to NOT be distinguished by the rebels as a civilian one, its transponder was tampered or shut down remotely at the right moment. The technology of doing that is actually a guarded secret (as well as its existence), but we can guess that it already has been “tested” several months ago on an identical 777 that vanished inexplicably from the radars and has not been found since then, not leaving even tiniest hint. We may guess that the technology involves air-to-air interaction, hence the speculations about there being a “shadowing jet” or whatever.
Anyways, that’s basically what happened, a “perfect crime”, unfortunately.
Dear Saker,
hope you’ll completely recover soon,
hope enlightened people in Novorussia and all over Ukraine & Gaza & Syria & Lebanon & Irak & in every resilient corner of the world will defeat the evil empire.
Thanks to everyone for the precious thoughts, I feel a much better when I sense mind empathy and goodwill.
Best Wishes and Regards to you all.
MM
Allowing the experts to open the black boxes in Kiev or Washington appears suicidal. The inquiry should take place in Donetsk, in the presence of Russian experts.
Would you give your father’s signed will to crooked Uncle Charlie, to keep in his safe?
Allowing the experts to open the black boxes in Kiev or Washington appears suicidal. The inquiry should take place in Donetsk, in the presence of Russian experts.
Would you give your father’s signed will to crooked Uncle Charlie, to keep in his safe?
Hi,
Maybe we can add another question regarding the discussions between pilots and the control tower: beside those being recorded in the black-box, are these also stored by the air control tower as standard practice (since it’s a two-ways discussion it can be recorded on both sides) ? I would think they should be.
In case the plane was escorted by fighter jets, most likely the pilots would have asked the control tower what is going on.
How about the radar monitoring of UKR airspace by Russia ? I would assume that given the war situation there, there should be non-stop surveillance going of flights and communications.
Somewhere I did read that all air-traffic communications in Europe are stored centrally for a while. Maybe it’s not true, but giving the fact that it’s all digital, it’s not impossible and very easy.
On a different note, I was just thinking what will people say about this war after 100-200 years ? Can it be something along the lines that stupid-retarded slavs, who have common origin did fight against each other blinded by hate instigated by external smart asses (jesuits and jews) ?
Was this hate boiling slowly for decades there ?
You can basically ignite a new war everywhere in Europe if you start digging the past.
For example Ukraine also stole lands from Hungary, Poland and Romania and this countries, if allowed by NATO, could start a conflict in order to get them back. Not to mention that, if you dig deeper, you can discover even some genocides committed by ukrainians against local populations there. Some of it was done with a lot of help from Stalin, maybe as a way to appease them for the Holodomor ?
Another subject of discussion is about the deceits and lies coming from the idea that EU is the best place on earth. This EU deliberately destroyed economies of all the eastern European countries while also promoting the most corrupt politicians who will sell and betray their nations for a few monies. Are the ukrainians so brainwashed to not see what basket-case has become Greece ?
Do they not understand they will always be second/third grade citizens inside EU, good for cleaning toilets, working in construction or providing cheap prostitutes ?
An efficient press-campaign to reveal these aspects will help more than any war/weapons support !!!
Revealing how the euro basically works for the exclusive benefits of Germany/France/Holland (like the dollar does for USA) will also open the eyes of many.
f pro-Russian rebels used a captured Ukranian BUK (or a secret system smuggled in from Russia) and fired it from any of the rebel-controlled areas, then MH17 would have been hit, and the wreckage would have traveled far beyond the region it was found.
A BUK M1-2 TELAR (Transport Erect Launch Aquisiton Radar) unit by itself (without the big radar-only truck) can only begin to acquire an approaching target at a range of maybe 15km or so. MH17 would be approaching the launcher at a lateral closing speed of one kilometer every four seconds. That means, at best, the TELAR might begin to see MH17 approaching at 60 seconds out. Let’s say it took fifteen seconds to somehow decide it was something they wanted to shoot down and launched a missile. Fifteen more seconds after launch for the missile to travel to and hit the plane. At that time, the MH17 would have been only seven or eight kilometers in front of the launcher, but ten kilometers high and still traveling forward (until hit) at a kilometer every four seconds. It would take well over three minutes for the heaviest pieces to hit the ground, and they would have done that several kilometers beyond the launcher – much further toward the Russian border.
For the wreckage to land where it did, an oncomming plane would have to have been hit by a missile while it was still about 22 or so km away. Twenty seconds for missle flight time to be there means it would have to be launched while the plane was still 27 km away. It would still take a while to be acquired by the radar and identified as ‘unfriendly’, so you’re talking more like 30km+.
30+km is within the capability of a fully-deployed BUK battery with all the TEL and TELAR missile launchers communicating wtih a M1-1 Kupol (Tube Arm/Snow Drift) search and acquisition radar vehicle. Trouble is that the seperatist militia didn’t capture an entire battery – they jsut got a couple of TELAR trucks. The TELAR units only have a much smaller Fire Dome radar to use (the bump under the missles). That means, under the most ideal conditions, they would have engaged and hit a approaching target that was a few km, not 30km away. The wreckage from a commercial airliner hit a few km in front of the TELAR would be found a dozen kilometers further downrange.
he destruction of MH-17 happened at a point well beyond the range of any separatist captured BUK TELAR units when you consider the additional acquisition, launch and missile flight times (not simply the stated raw BUK ranges). A BUK TELAR vehicle, by itself, could have shot down MH17, but it would have to have been 10km further into Ukrainian-held territory.
There’s people that do a lot better job of explaining the dynamics of a BUK system and can give more precise numbers, but it makes sense at face value. You simply can’t shoot down an approaching jet aircraft that far out without the half-dozen or so vehicles working together as a minimum, complete SAM battery. You can’t even see the aircraft that far out without a dedicated Kupol search and acquisition radar.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-19/us-government-lied-pretend-accidental-russian-shootdown-commercial-plane-was-intenti
T1
These days news is not actually written down by local correspondents, Its news received from AFP , Reuters , AP and we all know who (or which US dept) is doing all the writing for them.
In India , A country which has been again and again supported by USSR and then by Russia , has only mentioned news from these major news sources. Extremely disappointment , Indians seems to forgets that it was the Americans who want to nuke India back in 1973 because of the Pakistan
Most of the comments are also blaming Russia.
“…I will update things as I get them, but I can say that Russia didn’t do this. It was Ukraine / US military based that shot this plane down. The MH370 was painted up to look like the MH17. The new MH17 (MH370 in disguise) was hiding newer technology that the Chinese wanted. The MH370 in disguise (made to look like the MH17) was intentionally flown into a war zone to test the technology, where the US / Ukraine intercepted it. The passengers of the MH370 are being held alive (they have intellectual property that the Chinese want) in hopes of reconstructing a new device with this new technology..
July 20, 2014 at 9:48 AM …”
from
http://psychicfocus.blogspot.com/2014/07/malaysian-flight-mh17-plane-shot-down.html
It was (as it now appears) (maybe-probably) shot down by MACHINE GUNS from the 2_UKRAINIAN_ARMY_PLANES who “escorted it”: http://opensxce.blogspot.de/2014/07/proof-contradicting-buk-missile-theory.html
At the moment that the Mh17 was taken down and the tragedy was being reported, I’ve read (somewhere) that the MH17’s transponder was active. Sorry, but I don’t remember where’s this article.
Saker, How can you be so sure it was a missile and not a bomb?
It would be much simpler to remote-detonate, and less ‘lose ends’ in the form of missile smoke-plumes and stray pictures of it etc.
From what I’ve seen, there is no evidence for a missile.
“””””Our guys posted all over the web that the plane inexplicably flew too north. MSM responded by saying that the sky over Donbass is a normal route and was frequently used.”””””
Huhh?? Did I read this correctly? Too north?? In germany the MSM have claimed it flew too south. They also provided a map where the “normal” route would go over Belarus (Way more Northwards). This is crazy that they even tell different lies in different western countries.
It is not for me to tell Russia what to do but, losing its resolve will only cause more harm in the long run.
Answers:
i) No – they have confiscated the recordings of communications with the plane. Interestingly the transition to a new route started in Poland south west of Warsaw. Maybe the Poles did the dirty deed, but that seems to be contradicted by the confiscation of Ukraine’s records. Perhaps that is a double bluff, so in the end the Ukies could say truthfully the records show nothing. In the meantime the Poles may have destroyed their records (this Ukie situation is making me far too cynical for my own good). Any records relating to the reported 2 military fighters should also be assessed.
ii) Yes – the apparent loss of signal on FlightAware.com was the result of lack of local receiver coverage in Ukraine. The signals were picked up by FlightRadar24.com, but I think the site was overloaded by browser traffic
iii) No idea, sorry
Please,please someone from Russians here translate these news just to let the people living in the West to know how we are misled here by our MSM media
http://stream.1tv.ru/live
Correction to i) in my earlier answer. I do not consider the Ukie statements that are essentially ‘bs we made up’ to be an explanation, as it was readily contradicted by a quick Google. They aren’t that stupid are they? Perhaps they think we are?
Pursuant to my comments about being unable to verify the position and possession of the BUK missing a missile on a civilian lowboy trailer, here are recent pictures of Ukraine Army moving a BUK on a civilian low boy trailer and tractor.
http://ruposters.ru/archives/7134
Also, note the red/white warhead issue is a protective cap issue, not dummy vs. live.
Have to say, though, if Russia is very conciliatory, tries to monitor, lock down the border, etc., etc. – will still find a way to win. Gotta remember, Ukraine and Russia have been there and are going to be there, long-term solutions. So easy to get caught up in the day to way war events. Russia just has to win enough to kinda reunify with Ukraine, it will take a long time though. Europe will still be there too, hopefully the US will implode domestically as soon as possible.
Colonel Cassad fingers Surkov as the leader of the Russian elite’s abandon Donbass/Ukraine movement:
“But since this idea enjoys popular support, openly negotiate with the junta and the oligarchs on the future of the “big Transdniestria” does not work. Shooters in fact does not die idea of ”big New Russia”, which Surkov & Co. mostly written off in the spring of junk.”
http://cassad.net/category/politic/232-o-chem-grustit-strelkov.html
Paul Rigby, UK
It should be emphasized that the thesis that the aircraft was attacked using a surface-to-air missile, is only an assumption made by all those who do not actually know the facts.
This assumption has been very effectively suggested by Kiev’s assertion of what happened, which was almost immediately echoed in various forms, by various Western governments and media. If these assertions are based on facts, they have not been made public.
Maybe it was not a surface-to-air missile attack, just like it was not a minor fire that destroyed WTC-7. Accepting (potentially) false assumptions leads one away from the truth.
@456def
– The Americans are saying that the BUK system is so complex that the rebels couldn’t possibly be operating it on their own without Russian help. This means that whoever shot down the plane must have been an expert.
Specialists on all sides have been saying that from the beginning.
If Russia had supplied the NAF with a BUK, it would provide the entire system (not just one relatively useless part) and most definitely a crew, because – this is what a BUK looks like on the inside:
http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=446729&d=1405683077
http://www.ausairpower.net/PVO-SV/9A317-Stations-TELAR-MiroslavGyurosi-1S.jpg
http://aviaforum.ru/attachment.php?attachmentid=446730&thumb=1&d=1405683077
Actually, the specialists have also been expressing serious doubt it was a BUK in the first place that shot down that plane. But the international community for some reason shows little interest in going to the crash site and recovering fragments of the missile that did it. Now I wonder why that might be.
Some Malasian newspapers in English, plus Pepe’s in AT
http://www.nst.com.my/node/15521
http://www.nst.com.my/node/15519
http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/political-news/299363-it-is-hell-and-it-smells-of-death.html
http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/first/299385-highlight-malaysia-airlines-releases-full-passenger-manifest-for-flight-mh17-fr.html
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/269104
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/world/article/missile-system-used-in-mh17-crash-came-from-russia-says-kerry
http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=324931:finally-proof-russia-is-behind-mh17-tragedy&Itemid=2#axzz382Oq62OR
Have only looked at a few so far.
They don’t seem to be as rabidly antagonistic as US MSM…except the one featuring Kerry
Some Malasian newspapers in English, plus Pepe’s in AT
http://www.nst.com.my/node/15521
http://www.nst.com.my/node/15519
http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/political-news/299363-it-is-hell-and-it-smells-of-death.html
http://www.theedgemalaysia.com/first/299385-highlight-malaysia-airlines-releases-full-passenger-manifest-for-flight-mh17-fr.html
http://www.malaysiakini.com/news/269104
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-01-190714.html
http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/world/article/missile-system-used-in-mh17-crash-came-from-russia-says-kerry
http://www.malaysia-chronicle.com/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=324931:finally-proof-russia-is-behind-mh17-tragedy&Itemid=2#axzz382Oq62OR
Have only looked at a few so far.
They don’t seem to be as rabidly antagonistic as US MSM…except the one featuring Kerry
“Dear friends, I am still sick…”
I’m telling you now, like I told you before: be very, very careful what you eat and drink.
Like I said a few weeks ago: they don’t have to kill you. Just make you too sick to work.
I hope you ‘only’ have flu, and nothing more serious. (What a thing: to hope it’s flu…)
But the fact is: you don’t get the same flu twice in a row. That’s not how the virus works. Your first infection granted you immunity to the strain that infected you – unless you are severely sick and immunocompromised.
And: it is very, very unflikely that you would catch two different strains of flu twice in a few weeks. That is a 1000 to 1 improbability.
You might want to stick to bottled water from now on, don’t eat anything offered by strangers, and buy groceries from different stores each time you shop.
A friend.
Dear Saker,
Perhaps this is why malaysia is attacked:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission
In short, the KLWCT convicted GW Bush, et al for the invasion of Iraq, the torture at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo, and others
by ‘Brabantian’ – Significant article today from retired Indian ambassador M K Bhadrukumar, sympathetic to Russia and how MH-17 was likely a false flag, but feeling Moscow is failing disastrously in media efforts:
« Moscow has lost the propaganda war to Washington … t has been quite apparent to any long-time observer that Moscow was being pulled in opposite directions by the so-called ‘westernists’ and ‘orientalists’, the latter on retreat. The Ukraine crisis ought to be a wake-up call. The point is, history has not ended and Russia can never be part of the Western world …
« It is about time the ‘westernists’ among the Moscow elites realize that all they have is a pipe dream …
« The Kremlin had cooperated with the Obama administration in the spirit of the (in)famous US-Russia ‘reset’ to put the screws on Iran … The ‘reset’ turned out to be a macabre joke that the Obama administration played on the Kremlin folks. And the mother of all ironies is that Russia today is being threatened with an avalanche of sanctions by the US unless it behaved properly over Ukraine, much the same way Iran used to be threatened until last year. »
M K Bhadrakumar article on Putin, Ukraine and Iran
– Brabantian
@Saker – Have you seen this yet? Robert Parry – a long-time well-repsected American journalist (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Parry_%28journalist%29 ) has published an article where he cites inside sources within the CIA who are aware that the Ukrainian military shot down MH17. This could be a big break through! :-)
“Regarding the shoot-down of the Malaysian jetliner on Thursday, I’m told that some CIA analysts cite U.S. satellite reconnaissance photos suggesting that the anti-aircraft missile that brought down Flight 17 was fired by Ukrainian troops from a government battery, not by ethnic Russian rebels who have been resisting the regime in Kiev since elected President Viktor Yanukovych was overthrown on Feb. 22.” http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/19/airline-horror-spurs-new-rush-to-judgment/
(I know this is slightly off the immediate specific topic, but worth checking out.)
An article about the public opinion in Malaysia: http://tiny.cc/5dabjx
Somewhere there was a dispute about the rights of the space above Crimea between Russia and The Ukraine as reason for to taking a route to the north of the normal route
I just found this that seems answer the first question:
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-18/ukraines-security-service-has-confiscated-air-traffic-control-recordings-malaysian-j
Fwd from Canuckkstan:
@Saker
While the answers you, and we, seek are not easily found here, let us propose a couple of other observations that will more than likely add more questions into the mix.
It is becoming obvious, based upon the heavy censorship at our “public” broadcasters website (CBC) related to geo-polical and domestic economic subjects, that the narrative is falling apart. They have systematically restricted comment access to issues about Gaza and Eastern Ukraine, which prevents from any sharing of info that counter the narrative spin.
The questions that may need answers:
Is it possible that the Right Sector is so outta control that they are preventing safe access towards the East for crash investigators?
Is it possible, considering the “scene” is swarming with reporters and volunteers, noting the lack of armed militia, that Kiev was hoping for some “attack” against the reporters? The same question can be asked a oit the rail yard.
We all know that this whole sequence of events does not support the MSM spin doctoring.
Another thought lead one to ponder whether the words being repeated that the “world” is expecting Putin to “do something” opens the door for RF to send forces to secure the area for international investigators?
Btw: CBC reporter on the ground still counters the narrative, contrary to the rest of the armchair anylists…
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741521
Specifically, the first of the three audio fragments, in which Gorlovka self-defense militia commander Igor Bezler talks about a plane shot down by the fighters, does not say anything about the type of the plane, the expert said.
At the same time, the name of the town of Yenakiyevo is clearly heard in the tape. However, the town is located about 100 km (60 miles) from the settlement of Snezhnoye where the Malaysian Boeing-777 airliner crashed.
Bezler said the talk had really taken place but the he had talked about a Ukrainian attack aircraft shot down by the militia above Yenakiyevo a day before the Malaysian airliner crash.”
Ukies have removed their “proof” against self-defence forces. Gee, I wonder why ?
Andrew,
Fwd from Canuckistan:
Maybe worth noting this article while reviewing the comments (being closed prematurely for starters) for some other technical details regarding SAMS…
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-faq-surface-to-air-missiles-1.2711697
(sorry for such short ponderings, having some interwebz issues here)
Paul Rigby, UK, a while ago, after I have read some of surkov’s writing, I said here that if Surkov is a Russia’s political rising start, then Russia is in big trouble. It did not take that for it to proof been true.
Brabantian,
Countries such as China and India are aware that the west is untruth worthy, now RF in realizing the same.
I feel it is very unfair for Novorossia to fight a war basically to stop UKR army to attach RF while Russian are watch TV and flood polls to ask restraint.
After great deal of blood and treasure, here we go again, the west charge at you with a false accusation.
They are betting on you will not go in, and give them a free hand to kill off Novorossians, after that then they will come out at you. The war can not be lost. The will find more ways to corner you. The more you retreat, the bold they become. The end results is always war.
It looks like that it’s not correct to define this as a war against Russia, it’s rather a war against half of Russia; the other half has already been conquered.
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/32315.html
It may be premature, but judging by her fruits in this tragedy, Russia seems to act like a mere antithesis to the D-Empire, not a real opponent. She has the truth, the justice on her side, she has also the means and the power to stand by them with thunder voice and iron fist, but she only stutters and scratches.
We are not even talking anymore about intervention or not, but about doing anything serious at all (please, save me the killing dollar theme, you need to stay alive to see the dollar dead).
I’m more than willing to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, but at this point the question is legitimate: who is Caesar in Russia?
The situation described in the article above is really disgusting. In such situation, it’s a miracle to still have a resistance in Novorossija, but it will not last long if the bear continues the lethargy. The Spring is long gone!
P.S. – The Malaysian airplane has been downed by a air-to-air missile, so that all the talk about BUK systems and who did it is just a waste of time (while civilians in Novorossija keeps on being slaughtered by tens daily). It’s really idiotic to continue playing by the rules set by your enemy, above all when the first of these rules says that they apply only to you.
In any case, whatever happened to the airline the Kremlin knows! Why do they hush?
Re Malaysia – Mainstream media is running pieces on how hatred of Russia is building rapidly in Malaysia. This is HUGE disaster, Malaysia is opinion leader among world’s 2 billion Muslims – long-time leader against Israel exposing its war crimes, & along with Turkey, one of the 2 Muslim countries which is considered an economic model, i.e., with strong & growing middle class.
Russia is being blamed for blocking Muslims from burying bodies quickly as they are bound to do by their religion – when of course it is the Ukies holding things up. But truth seems to matter little now – even to Russia.
With Russia handling the media war so badly – and RT Russia Today channel half-imploding – this seems far beyond incompetence, it almost seems purposeful. Am afraid we must revive the dark thoughts that Putin is indeed a sell-out, the most clever of all ‘false opposition’ who has been slowly betraying to the Western oligarch goons. I would hope this is wrong – and maybe I can be diverted again by another Saker pro-Putin pep talk – but my rational mind says something really stinks here, in Russia’s not using the propaganda tools so easily to hand. Putin, Russia and Russia’s key media are just not that stupid. This seems evidence for the worst fears.
In light of MH17, it seems clear now Russia should have gone in and partitioned Ukraine, after the Odessa massacre at the latest.
And Russia should be at 100% in media – propaganda efforts, instead of the lukewarm half-arsed mess it is across the board, with RT, Itar-Tass, Voice of Russia … May God help us all
P S Veterans Today has unconfirmed report Polish military has landed on the ground in Ukie – Donbass war
Dear Saker,
Hope you’re well soon! Sorry I haven’t the answers to your questions.
To all: if you haven’t read Paul Craig Roberts’ article on the downing of the Malaysian airline, he gets almost all the way to the truth, and in very bold terms for a Western journalist. It’s a step. The link:
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/19/happened-malaysian-airliner-paul-craig-roberts/?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed
I believe the Twitter feed of Carlos (@spainbuca), the ATC at the Kiev tower, proves convincingly that the Ukraine Interior Ministry ordered the plane shot down. I speculate since “foreigners” were present in the tower, this may have been CIA. Also, possibly the fighter escorts were Ukrainian, and forced the plane off route. Black boxes should tell.
BTW, if it hasn’t been said, the @spainbuca account has been erased from Twitter. However, I verified from a Twitter cache that his account existed and his feed was transcribed correctly.
Alexander Dugin:
… But the strength of the militias are not infinite (to put it mildly). …Scared for Novorossia, terrible for Russia …
http://vk.com/duginag?w=wall18631635_3464%2F0555c42353a114dcf2
Alexander Dugin:
… But the strength of the militias are not infinite (to put it mildly). …Scared for Novorossia, terrible for Russia …
http://vk.com/duginag?w=wall18631635_3464%2F0555c42353a114dcf2
Another Shimatsu article:
http://www.rense.com/general96/MH17.html
Was MH17 Sabotaged By An Israeli
Security Team At Amsterdam
Schiphol Airport?
Alexander Dugin:
… But the strength of the militias are not infinite (to put it mildly). …Scared for Novorossia, terrible for Russia …
http://vk.com/duginag?w=wall18631635_3464%2F0555c42353a114dcf2
MH17 all but completely proven to be Flight 370.
This article that draws from the work of NSA whistleblower, Jim Stone shows strong evidence that Flight 17 recently “shot down” over the Ukraine is none other than the missing flight 370.
http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/07/mh17-all-but-completely-proven-to-be.html
But the key here is that Gordon Duff, back when Malaysian Flight 370 had just disappeared (been re-routed to Diego Garcia) noted that the plane would likely be commandeered to be used in a False Flag shoot down over Ukraine!! This was several months ago. So the question is, how can the editor of Veterans Today be so right on months before an event of this kind? Answer, because of he is CIA and this is an inside job.
You could say he warned us….
Military Commander: Passengers dead long before plane took off
The bodies were dead for days before the flight, and smelling of rot, according to a top military commander at the scene – which would be expected if they were actually from Flight 370. They would have been loaded on the plane dead to make sure no one could speak about what went on.
From Associated Press:
MOSCOW – A top pro-Russia rebel commander in eastern Ukraine has given a bizarre version of events surrounding the Malaysian jetliner crash – suggesting many of the victims may have died days before the plane took off. The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that “a significant number of the bodies weren’t fresh,” adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.
My comment: This strongly supports MH370 as being the real shootdown plane, with all passengers dead long before and probably being taken off of ice and loaded into the plane for final disposal. If a body is already dead before a crash, crash damage will not show up the same way it will with live bodies. This is probably why so many of the bodies in the wreckage do not show serious burns or blood. A good example of this effect is to take a piece of chicken and throw it in a hot pan for a few seconds. If you remove it from the hot pan within a short time, it will look totally uncooked. Yet if you put your hand on that hot pan for even half a second, it will be badly burned, and show it. Live flesh shows injury easily because of the way living cells respond to injury. If the bodies were dead for days and possibly loaded onto the plane well chilled, it would explain a lot about their relatively undamaged appearance in the wreckage.
Additionally, MH17 returned immediately to normal flight schedules after this shootdown, and I beg the question HOW if a real MH17 plane was lost. The only incomplete flight is the shootdown flight. Flight 370 was canceled for weeks after the jet supporting it disappeared; why not the same scenario for MH17 if it really did get shot down? Answer: The shot down plane was the disposal of Flight 370, being reported as MH17 to cover it up, thus leaving MH17 in a position to return to normal immediately. Dead men tell no tales? Perhaps if they are NOT LOADED ONTO A PLANE ROTTEN.
As I suspected, MH17 is NOT supposed to overfly eastern Ukraine..
Read here the end of the article
http://www.abeldanger.net/2014/07/mh17-all-but-completely-proven-to-be.html
One of the main purposes of the false flag was to bog down supporters of Novorussia in endless, pointless, useless discussions about what may or may not have happened. Meanwhile, the mainstream media declares “Putin did it- end of” and that propaganda message is devastatingly effective in its simplistic lie.
Talking about the false flag gains you NOTHING. No truth will change the lies printed in the zionist media.
The only proper response is to work to hit the neo-Nazis even harder in defence of the Humanity in Novorussia. Ideally, Putin would finally realise how effectively his ‘friends’ (like Tony Blair- a person Putin considers his closest ally) from the West have manipulated Russia. And in doing so, finally agree to send peace-keepers into Novorussia, and begin the process of splitting Ukraine into two or more new nations along ethnic lines.
Those that told Putin NOT to go into East Ukraine (or suggested this was a ‘childish’ solution) bear prime responsibility for all the death and destruction that has subsequently happened- including the false flag. Had Russia liberated Novorussia, there would have been no point in Obama ordering the false flag, so it wouldn’t have happened.
Appeasement against dedicated, well-resourced evil only leads to even greater harm to innocent Humans. Putin chose to appease the West over Novorussia, and the price paid for this mistake is growing by the day.
People who now say “let’s discuss the false flag even more” might as well be fighting on the side of the neo-Nazis. State loudly that we know the West ordered Kiev to shoot down the airliner to create a false flag, and then move on. The zionist media is going to mock and attack our side regardless, so there is nothing to gain by discussion.
If Russia can offer definitive proof of the false flag in the near future, using their technical expertise- then great- but this process won’t be assisted by wasting time debating the details of the false flag in places like this.
I have Malaysian in laws. They are more concerned to defend the decisions of Malaysian Airlines than pin blame on Russia or the rebels. Insofar as they have an opinion it is that the rebels did it through incompetence. The US does have a fix on the launch site and MH17 went off air following launch. They don’t lie about that sort of thing.
The Malaysian press also report that there was turbulence on the usual flight path. Crossing Crimea is out because of conflict between ATC administrations. Going even further South means a Great Circle over Syria/Iraq. A choice of evils.
Russia really is a loser because she never confronted her real enemy England whom Russia really has ability to turn into a glass park with massive strikes but whom she insists on pleasing again and again.
That is why the anglos always snatch victory from mouth of Russia or her allies.
That is how they snatched victory from Mohhamad gaddafi. That is how they did f rom Assad when theysent Un kofi aman to mediate at time when British terrorists were at rope by Assad.
Now Neorusdians when at point of victory at southern cauldron are left justifying themselves. All due to weakness and stupidity of Russians who are hell bent on self destruction.
Russia really is a loser because she never confronted her real enemy England whom Russia really has ability to turn into a glass park with massive strikes but whom she insists on pleasing again and again.
That is why the anglos always snatch victory from mouth of Russia or her allies.
That is how they snatched victory from Mohhamad gaddafi. That is how they did f rom Assad when theysent Un kofi aman to mediate at time when British terrorists were at rope by Assad.
Now Neorusdians when at point of victory at southern cauldron are left justifying themselves. All due to weakness and stupidity of Russians who are hell bent on self destruction.
I agree that what is happening in the propaganda field and the informational war seems weird. As if the Russians are not trying as hard as they can.
But then I remember a quote that since the day I read it for the first time never left my mind:
“WAR DOESN’T DETERMINE WHO IS RIGHT, ONLY WHO IS LEFT”
les at 18:28 on the Borodai thread raised some interesting points and his comment is worth going back to. As I said to him there, this crash is in many ways almost an instant replay in some ways, isn’t it, and where not, it appears to be tailor-made to blame Russia, strain Resistance manpower, get more Empire boots on the ground well-camouflaged as experts, family members or whatever, and divert the world gaze from Gaza. And the degree of “investigation” done by this new swarm of “investigators” in the RT video appeared to involve walking around en masse, glancing here or there and occasionally taking a cell phone snapshot. I.e., unworthy of even a very bad movie.
Meanwhile, does anyone know for sure if there is a difference in the distribution of charred vs. intact… whatever, including the surface upon which everything lands (dry grass in this case), depending on whether the cause was a bomb, a ground-to-air missile or an air-to-air missile? Also, has anyone located a complete passenger manifest, and/or located all the relatives?
With those dodgy passports and all the rumors flying, including that the Thursday flight might have been cancelled and all passengers bumped to Friday, as well as all the other suspicious circumstances here, the null hypothesis or governing assumption here should be false flag until conclusively proven otherwise with very high levels of confidence and significance required to successfully dispute it in any way whatsoever. (yeah, yeah, I know you can lie with statistics but let’s at least make it as difficult as possible, dammit.)
Meanwhile, does anyone know for sure if there is a difference in the distribution of charred vs. intact… whatever, including the surface upon which everything lands (dry grass in this case), depending on whether the cause was a bomb, a ground-to-air missile or an air-to-air missile? Also, has anyone located a complete passenger manifest, and/or located all the relatives? With those dodgy passports and all the rumors flying, including that the Thursday flight might have been cancelled and all passengers bumped to Friday, as well as all the other suspicious circumstances here smelling far worse than those bodies, the null hypothesis or governing assumption here should be false flag with very high levels of confidence and significance required for any data that might reject any part of it in any way whatsoever. (yeah, yeah, I know you can lie with statistics but let’s at least make it as difficult as possible, dammit.)
according to sources available to me: “The Boeing 777 series of planes has a completely integrated computer system and a known security flaw. theoretically, someone could connect to a seat back USB in the passenger cabin and introduce a malicious code that could overtake the plane’s operating system.” if this is one flaw, maybe there are other back doors which could be used to shut off transponders, say, 2 hours or x amount of miles into the trip. Again, I have little computer knowledge, but I do know that the more complicated one makes a plot, the more likely to have a glitch. Keep it simple. Already the Ukies have a bit of explaining about the 200KM route change and altitude shift.
I, for one, find the increased stridency of Kiev’s media reports, as well as Western media picking up on them, a good sign – there is someone on the ground, not letting Kiev goons and shills run all over the place, hence the non stop accusations.
There is a possibility this was an actual, successful setup. if so, and the rebels shot it down by accident, I am finding their behavior strange because all they needed to do was own up to the accident. They are already outside of the law. They could have argued it was a war zone, a terrible accident etc and so on. So what if the weapons are Russian? ISIS’s entire weaponry is provided by the USA.
But they didn’t, so… there is something else going on.
At the end of the day, after a very stressful few days, I am choosing to put my faith in Putin and his strategy. He managed to get a lot done in the recent months, while being bullied by the West.
Perhaps they are conducting their own investigation – or waiting for the right moment to make grounded accusations. It does Russia no good to be drawn into an open conflict now. I am sure FSB is working overtime to figure out what is happening.
Give it a few days or weeks even. A commander in chief needs trust. Perhaps things are bad, but I choose to put my trust into him and go from there. Maybe I am wrong, but there you have it.
We’ll take our good news wherever we can find it, right? Well, how ’bout Germany!
http://rt.com/news/174196-berlin-artist-obama-embassy/
;~) I love this, I really, really, really, really, really love it.
Following the disastrous loss of troops in the cauldron, the Ukrainians have appointed a new minister of defense. In his acceptance speech, he said he feels fully qualified for the job.
George,
I’m not Saker but if I were, your statement above would be the one exception ever permitted to that “no capital letters” rule.
It really is unforgettable, at least to anyone with a conscience. Wow.
Boy, did I screw up cutting-and-pasting that other response: truly sorry, folks.
Soarintothesky,
Whatever the European group determining overflights is called, it had already given Crimea to Russia. Plus all other Malaysia flights of that plane number, both before and after this crash, took the other route. No storms in Crimea that day either; no word on whether those NATO exercises only took place on Thursday but that should be easily verifiable. Meanwhile, someone else here — and I forget whom — also wondered how the airline managed to find another plane by the very next day to replace the downed one. Apparently doing so is quite a rarity — it’s not like they’re generally just sitting around waiting (except, of course, that one parked in Tel Aviv…)
“And Russia should be at 100% in media – propaganda efforts, instead of the lukewarm half-arsed mess it is across the board, with RT, Itar-Tass, Voice of Russia … May God help us all”
+1
1- No explanation given directly from ATC about change of trajectory.
Saturday, July 19, 07:20 PM GMT +0800 MH17 Press Briefing By Liow Tiong Lai, Minister of Transport:
ON THE FLIGHT PATH:
On the matter of MH17’s flight path, I would like to refer to recent reported comments by officials from Eurocontrol, the body which approves European flight paths under ICAO rules.
According to the Wall Street Journal, the officials stated that some 400 commercial flights, including 150 international flights crossed eastern Ukraine daily before the crash. Officials from Eurocontrol also stated that in the two days before the incident, 75 different airlines flew the same route as MH17.
MH17’s flight path was a busy major airway, like a highway in the sky. It followed a route which was set out by the international aviation authorities, approved by Eurocontrol, and used by hundreds of other aircraft. It flew at an altitude set, and deemed safe, by the local air traffic control. And it never strayed into restricted airspace.
The flight and its operators followed the rules. But on the ground, the rules of war were broken. In an unacceptable act of aggression, it appears that MH17 was shot down; its passengers and crew killed by a missile.
2- Friday, July 18, 12:30 AM GMT +0800 Media Statement 1: MH17 Incident
Media Statement 1: MH17 Incident:
Malaysia Airlines confirms it received notification from Ukrainian ATC that it had lost contact with flight MH17 at 1415 (GMT) at 30km from Tamak waypoint, approximately 50km from the Russia-Ukraine border.
Friday, July 18, 01:30 PM GMT +0800 Media Statement 3 : MH17 Incident
Media Statement 3 : MH17 Incident:
The B777-200 aircraft bearing registration no. 9M-MRD that operated MH17 on 17 July, 2014 had a clean maintenance record. The aircraft’s last maintenance check was on 11 July 2014. The next check was due on 27 Aug 2014. The maintenance was conducted at Malaysia Airlines’ hangar at KLIA. The aircraft had a clean bill of health.
All communication system on the aircraft were functioning normally.
3- No information available a the moment