Dear friends,
It is a huge pleasure for me to submit to you a detailed analysis made by “CDN” of the circumstances of the downing of MH17.
You will notice that CDN’s analysis does not agree with my own hypothesis. The difference being that CDN does have the professional expertise (accident investigation) to write such a report while I do not. Still, CDN has specifically asked me to “please encourage readers to be critical of my analysis” which I indeed encourage you to do: his analysis does not pretend to be The One And Only Truth but instead a basis for discussion.
You can download his full report by clicking on either one of the following links:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByibNV3SiUoobnpCVDduaHVORHM/edit?usp=sharing
http://www.mediafire.com/view/61qa99yt6v3dq64/MH17Analysis_Parts_1_and_2.pdf
I am getting increasingly frustrated and angry at the fact that clearly the Dutch and the British, obviously under the orders of Uncle Sam, are sitting on the data of the flight data recorders and not releasing them. At the very least, the following countries have the recordings of the radio contacts between MH17 and the Kiev ATC:
1) The junta’s SBU
2) The USA
3) Russia
and then two more countries – France and Switzerland – which probably have them too. Even if these recordings are destroyed, there are enough people out there who by now who know what happened. The truth will come out sooner or later. In the meantime, the main task is not to discover The One And Only Truth, but first to disprove the complex of lies of the Empire and, then, to gradually get close and closer to the truth.
We all owe a huge debt of gratitude to CDN who produced a professional-grade report and made it available for us for the sole reward of advancing the cause of truth and justice. I am personally deeply grateful to CDN for choosing this blog to release his report.
I ask you all to share with us your comments, especially your critical ones, to make it possible for CDN to refine his analysis. This would be the best way to thank him for his truly excellent work.
The Saker
Saker Message:
Sanctions against Russia work “at work”
Russia response to Dobrolyot sanctions drops US, EU air carriers capitalization
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/743747
N.V.
Thank you, CDN. I understand you had to work long hours to put this report together and not many have your expertise. As a young student, the first time I wrote a report of that caliber, in a completely different field, it took me a couple of weeks at the university. Thank you for your contribution. I hope people understand how much work is behind it. Never mind criticism of details.
After reading your report, this is my conclusion: What is most important is we now know for certain the Novorossiyans didn’t do it.
That is what matters. If the plane was destroyed by a Buk, the Ukies did it. If, as some insist, it was destroyed by a SU-25, we know the Novorossiyans could not have done it. We can relax and just wait for the truth to come out.
If the investigation is biased, it is highly probable Russia will reveal the truth this time. After all, that is what Putin did when he told us _exactly_ how Khaddafi was assassinated with US help. Very unusual. The details were awesome and had one of our international courts issue a statement. This was reported in some countries, but perhaps not in the Anglosaxon world. I think Russias signal intelligence capabilities as far away as in Northern Africa was a chock for NATO and one of the reasons for Washingtons intensified Putin-bashing. Nobody wants to be caught with his pants down. I can well imagine Putin telling us exactly what happened to the airliner, if the investigation stalls. This is Ukraine, not Libya.
@Cu Chulainn,
About the decomposed bodies from MH17:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/rebel-leader-says-many-of-the-dead-bodies-in-mh17-werent-fresh.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZiHTGkG0zw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvuIhO8hACA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-J6tDSOgHk
Yesterday NPR’s All Things Considered offered up a segment named:”As Moscow beefs up its’ border presence, what’s driving Putin?” David Remnick, New Yorker editor, was interviewed.
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=338099689&m=338099690&live=1
Typical propaganda piece using pop psychology to try to analyse the Russian President.
Right off, they lost me with the flat statement by the NPR mouthpiece saying that Russia invaded Crimea.
The Malaysian plane downing was not emphasized, so perhaps the talking heads have been given new talking points.
Don’t let evil thrive on planet Earth.
Doing anything with regard to evilness is like being more wicked than the perpetrator.
If we need to go into WWIII and annihilate all lives on this planet, so be it.
@Red Shia
Look more carefully at the photographs—in many of the holes where the outer layer peals outward, the inner layer is still pointing inward. I assume that the inner layer is responsible for structural integrity, and the outer layer for chemical/other protection. I don’t see any unambiguously outward-pointing holes.
CDN says:
@Yonatan 6 August, 2014 04:30
The warhead of the Buk also fragments into cubes so the apertures in the target would be angular rather than oval (assuming cannon fire or fragmentation of air-to-air missile).
The shrapnel is heated by the explosion so that it is white hot. The precise metallurgy is unknown but it is expected that white hot cubes would quickly turn into high speed white hot blobs and take on a circular rather than a cubic shape. This accounts for the round exit holes which are larger than expected for 30mm cannon fire.
—
@Larchmonter445 06 August, 2014 05:01
I would have liked to have every good photograph of the important parts of the plane as part of the presentation
I agree. But the 777 is not an aircraft I am familiar with. The following link does provide parts identification and location on the airframe:
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/List_of_MH17_airframe_parts
—
@Daniel Rich 06 August, 2014 05:12
I have come to many of the same conclusions and am trying to compose those into a follow on post.
—
@lambert streher 06 August, 2014 05:43
Not missing. Just underestimated the amount of work required to pull all the details together. The images took a lot of time but are critical to understanding. If you are the Lambert from NC, thanks for your great work on the same topic.
—
@Frustrated Canadian 06 August, 2014 06:43
Good points.
Will revise the document after taking a breather from it.
With regards CDN, you are correct. My concern is that a group of people willing to take 298 innocent lives in pursuit of political aims would likely not hesitate to retaliate against evidence that implicates them in the shoot down.
—
@Victor 06 August, 2014 07:39
I wondered about the “missing” contrail as well. The firing position is in a rural and, judging by Google maps, sparsely inhabited, so few witness’s in the immediate area. Secondly the path of the missile would at roughly 70 degree angle. It gains altitude extremely quickly. The missile burn time appears to be relatively short. Lastly the video of MH17 ground impact shows the rising smoke being blown away to one side. If area winds were high then the contrail can be expected to have quickly dissipated.
On AP cannon rounds. I suspect these would pass right through the fuselage and never explode. They would leave only a pattern of entrance and exit holes. Depends on how the ammunition is fused.
The missile explodes from above but from a distance. It is also engineered so that the explosive force is directed forward and down. It is not like those WW2 movie images of AA burst exploding in a nice circular puff.
For the cube as a circle see prior comment.
—
@Michael McDonnell 06 August, 2014 07:56
Agreed.
But first there is the need to examine the facts and arrive at a coherent understanding of those facts. The feedback and comments here help that goal.
CDN says:
@Anonymous 06 August, 2014 11:14
I agree.
Given the speed of the missile, I doubt the pilots observed its approach. The entire cockpit and all communications gear would have been destroyed by the blast so very little on the CVDC other than interchange with ATC.
—
@Anonymous 06 August, 2014 11:17
We are all newbies when it comes to former liberal democracies supporting state terrorism.
I am unaware of the Swiss having access to the recorders.
—
@Andrew 06 August, 2014 11:40
Your excellent prior comments on Saker’s site made me ask why no news organization was even attempting to undertake a similar analysis. They all seemed busy reciting the party line, hurling invective at Russia, and inciting the population to war.
Since no one else was performing a factual analysis, I decided to take it on. It took me a few weeks. I would suspect that the US military contains groups able to perform a similar analysis within hours,if not minutes. The US is increasingly implicated in these events.
Agreed on the discrediting Malaysia and killing the right sort of people. Trying to complete a final part of the analysis from socio-political perspective.
I have a different theory in regard to the aircraft observed on scene.
With regard to actual firing sequence, it is my understanding that once the TE LARs are networked with the command vehicle then an operator in the command vehicle is able to assign missiles to targets and deliver a remote launch command. One likely result is that the fallback position will be interviews with a group of UAF servicemen who will claim they were sitting around when the missile “just went off by itself. Honest!” This claim may be true but obscures the fact that the launch command was delivered by a 3rd party at the remote command site.
I’ll check the position for the umpteenth time. Saur Moglia is about 15 km further south. The Telegraph has / had a post with a visual map reference and an image from the purported launch site toward Saur Moglia.
I am puzzled by the Russian flight track. Why did MH17 leave L-69 for L-980 and then why did it attempt to return? Is the explanation to be found in ATC communications with MH17? Are these the same communications impounded by the SBU? That last is a rhetorical question.
—
@patty donovan 06 August, 2014 11:50
I think your government is intent on a war. This impulse toward war will be furthered by the sanctions and hindrances to trade which will stall and already spluttering global economy. The root cause of the 2007-2008 crisis was never addressed, simply papered over by US money printing. This money printing has blown another huge financial bubble. When this finally pops we will all be in free fall as per the occupants of MH17.
We are all frustrated that the US is not releasing their radar tracings for when KM17 came down. The delay is very telling.
Within minutes of hearing of the crash I thought the most likely explanation is that some damn fool rebel was responsible. Probably 95% of the rest of the world thought so also. As a guess probably close to 90% of western Europeans think so also to this day.
This is a major propaganda coup for the US. Why should they spoil that by releasing the facts now?
@Daniel Rich
Putting it all together like you’ve done underlines the elaborate nature of the conspiracy.
They are silent because their every statement can only further imcrimminate — a far cry from MSM propaganda in the immediate aftermath when EVERYONE was on message.
In our modern techno-fascist reality, compartmentalization is somewhat important but participants are also ‘programmed’ to self correct when they perceive any contradictions. It is good to remember that our enemies and their minions are always on the verge of a reality crisis. We should look for moments to break through on an individual basis. Like any war, we need to fight this one trench at a time. Talking to like-minded people is insufficient.
Modern propaganda creates an unprecedented level of emotional turmoil for anyone exposed to it. Then, when people make some effort to escape the disinformation matrix, sudden glimses of reality begin seeping in. You can see the trajectory of every psyop follow a similar pattern. When the moment of truth arrives (an easily predictable and measureable pattern of response to any trauma), the emotional terrorists of the Anglo-Zionist media move to ramp up fear of Ebola or other deeply embedded and culturally programmed fears.
No con trail no missile. Simple.
R n R Saker from U.K.
All support to the antifascist resistance of Novorossia!
– from Nazi-occupied Amerika
FWIW The New Straits Times, an English language Malaysian newspaper, is running a story titled “Exclusive on MH17: Missile, cannon brought down jet?”.
The online form of the original article is a little light on detail. A Russian blogger shows an illustration supposedly of the front page of the newspaper for Wednesday 6 August.
latest maps, according to both sides:
http://spreadanidea.wordpress.com/2014/08/06/ukraine-war-latest-dubious-maps-from-both-sides/
The “Russian AggressionPreventionActof 2014”’ was introduced in the United States on May 1. (1) Actually the bill is a plan of actions to fight Russia, including subversive activities. The first attempts to put pressure on Russia by imposing economic sanctions resulted in quite opposite effect. Those European states that followed the United States were hit by strong backlash. Latvia has the trade turnover with Russia down by 18% leading to 10 percent of GDP reduction. The Dutch-British Shell has suffered much as a result of taking its filling stations out of Crimea. McDonalds expects great losses too.
Russia has started to discuss the options as it gets ready to respond. It’ll be hard to normalize the situation till Europe realizes that the self-inflicted damage by far exceeds the iffy advantage of dancing to the Washington’s tune…Of course, the response should be asymmetric and harmless for Russian economy. Is it realistic? No doubt, it is. The Internet discussions mention some non-trivial steps to be taken.
One of the options is to invite Asian companies to fill the space left vacant by the Western business. For instance, there are willing competitors in Japan, China and Thailand to rapidly substitute for McDonalds. Asian fast food is popular in Russia; it’s by far healthier than the notorious hamburgers. The same could be applied to US and European companies joining the sanctions regime.
Sanctions and Counteractions or Challenge and Response – Strategic Culture Foundation
по-русски:
Санкции и контрсанкции. Вызов и ответ – Фонд Стратегической Культуры
Б.
The post-war move to expand international law to cover human rights and provide enforcement measures was all for the good, and in the future it will hopefully prove a powerful precedent that can be built upon. However, this period of progress did not last long. It soon gave way to a hypocritical selective application of humanitarian law. The truth is that today only those nations which are relatively weak and have no great power patronage are in any danger of being called to task for gross violations of human rights. If you are the leader of some small African or Balkan state and you go on some ethnically or religiously inspired rampage, you run a real risk of being charged with crimes against humanity and hauled before the ICC, while the UN Security Council votes to send military forces into your country. On the other hand, if you are a great power, or the close ally of one, you can pretty much do what you want, where you want. Great powers hold the concept of their own sovereignty sacrosanct and the us-versus-them mindset that goes along with hubristic nationalism remains unchallenged. That goes for their allies as well who, under the protection of their patron, often commit with impunity the same crimes that land smaller, unprotected powers in deep trouble.
Israel and the Erosion of International Humanitarian Law – Counterpunch
Б.
Today there were reports in the Anglo-Zionist media concerning roughly 20000 Russian soldiers said to be massing on the Ukrainian border. Personally, I hope they’re true.
This could be a negotiating tactic but I still believe Putin will move into Ukraine. Timing is everything. He is in the strongest position now as Europe begins stockpiling gas for the winter.
If Russia does make a move, what could Europe possibly do in response? The only sanction that really matters concerns Russian efforts to develop its energy resources in the far north. The US just moved to block this so now Putin probably believes he’s seen the worst.
If Russia were to move now, not only will Europe be powerless to stop it, I suspect they will also be relieved because a space will open up where they can turn to Washington and say sorry guys — we need Russian gas or our economies will collapse and Europe will freeze.
It might be too much to hope for but it is still possible that Putin and Merkel are working on such a plan together. Merkel will denounce any Russian move but additional sanctions will be limited and the Atlantic alliance will effectively be broken.
After which Germany can dismantle the NATO occupation with very little fuss. They are riding high and may be ready to take their place at the table of great powers.
The German national interest has never been so clear and I doubt the smart folks in Berlin’s foreign policy establishment are stupid enough to miss it.
@ Rootman,
Decomposing bodies + 8 out of 12 black boxes.
Yes, ‘honest’ western MSM will point at anything to distract their readers from obtaining the truth and regurgitate blatant lies in the hope they become self-propelled semi-truths.
8 out of 12 black boxes: I heard the men say this on a video and this means the men/fighters are really clueless about the 2 orange colored flight data and cockpit voice recorders. It doesn’t mean they lied about anything.
Decomposing bodies: although no international carrier will broadcast it or mention it in any of their glossy advertisements, they do transport one or more coffins with one or more dead individuals in them from A to B. I’ve personally handled/seen them/these.
The smell of death is universal and something you’ll never forget and always remember.
I do not think Strelkov or his men lied about what they believed they saw. They said/told what they believed to be true.
They erred, but that’s something we all do. Their overall [battlefield] reporting reflects more grains of truth than I’ve ever found in western MSM bull biscuits.
JUST ANNOUNCED Black Box report to be in September!!! Blamed on lack of access to site. Not sure how that affects work in Farnborough.
Maybe they hope that Kiev will have won by then. Think that may be a bad assumption.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/08/06/dutch-safety-board-says-preliminary-report-on-ukraine-plane-disaster-delayed/
JohninMK
I checked the timeline against the Carlos tweets.
The chronology of twitter feeds appearing at the Slavyngrad.org blog gives 10:21 for his first tweet on the matter (this must be EST)
Now, according to the timeline of MH17
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/timeline-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-crash-30440503.html
“The flight lost contact and disappeared from the radar at 2.15pm GMT”
Which is 10:15 EST. So Carlos sent his first tweet only 6 minutes after MH17 is said to have disappeared from the radar.
Clearly, if the tweeter feed times are accurate, he had to be either at, or very close to, the ATC action. Or in direct communication with someone present at the ATC action. He certainly didn’t wait for the information to appear on the newswire. He was in fact the first to break it to the world.
The fact that he mentioned the persence of Ukrainian fighters near MH17 is very significant because it was confirmed just a few hours later by eyewitness in the area, who most likely werent’on tweeter, and later also by the Russians from their radar data.
I wonder who the hell this guy is. And where he is. There have been reports that it was all a fake, based on the fact that the Spanish Embassy in Kiev has apparently denied having any knowledge of him. But this is hardly proof of anything. If he was renewing his passport in Spain while on vacation, there was no reason for him to have had any contact with the embassy.
He seems to have vanished completely. I wonder if we will ever hear from him.
He certainly exists. The tweets were not creating themselves in real time.
Everyone can feel it- the calm before the storm. All media outlets, including this blog, become the equivalent of that suspicious person in the shop-doorway, late at night, head down, whistling quietly. The calm before the storm.
Since one assumes the word has gone out, and the arrival of Russia’s peace-keepers is imminent, we should now consider what happens next. And I don’t mean in Novorussia, where the Kiev neo-nazis will immediately throw down their weapons and surrender.
-Does Russia annex Novorussia?
-Does Russia move to take the whole of Ukraine?
-If Russia stops at Novorussia, will the proxies of the West attempt terror attacks against the peace-keepers?
-will Russia simply stay to arrange a peaceful partition of Ukraine, as we witnessed with Czechoslovakia?
But all this is just the (infinitely) small potatoes. What will the West do?
-immediately begin preparations to invade Syria?
-Step up Whabbi terror activity from Saudi Arabia across the Muslim world.
-Instruct the genocidal filth of Israel to attack Lebanon?
-Begin the re-unification process between North and South Korea to trigger the Japan-Korea War?
-Arrange for a false-flag to justify the USA Holocausting Iran?
A blind fool could ‘seal’ the ‘wound’ of Ukraine to avoid further ‘infection’ at that region, so Putin should be able to easily bring that story to its final conclusion. But the USA didn’t start the trouble in Kiev in the first place without understanding the Ukraine situation could be closed down perfectly by Russia at any moment.
This has always been about a FAR BIGGER PICTURE. The sanctions and propaganda attacks against Russia, from all nations in the pocket of the elites, are going to increase to an extraordinary extent. The ‘Cold War’ dribble you hear from the same people who said Putin shouldn’t send in peace-keepers, is just an utter nonsense.
What possible benefit do you think the elites get from a new ‘Cold War’? Ukraine has always been about HOT WARS, growing fires across the planet until the combined ‘heat’ causes a conflagration we call a WORLD WAR.
The Empire of the West includes all those nations whose leaders howled their approval of the Jewish-Israeli genocide in Gaza. This most assuredly includes the nuclear armed Japan- recently seen slapping Obama’s sanctions against Russia. It includes all the major nations of Africa. And this Empire is readying to go to war with the rest of the planet.
Below is an article that discusses the only US sanction that matters. Russia and Exxon have a 500 billion dollar agreement to develop arctic energy and the Anglo-Zionists are moving to threaten it.
What Do U.S. Sanctions Mean for Exxon’s Close Friendship With Russia in the Arctic?
http://tinyurl.com/mpqljcd
When Senator Cruz starts sniffing around Exxon in search of a lever with which to punish Russia, he is exposing the chasm between the two primary factions that hold sway within the Empire, i.e. Big Oil versus Big Banks.
We are accustomed to seeing the Anglo-Zionists as a monolithic force. Nothing could be further from the truth. Exxon and Rosneft are set to begin drilling together this year. If the Putin hating Jewish bankers really want to punish Russia they will have to block this development. The two primary factions in the Anglosphere are bitter rivals. The defense industry and probably the military will stand with Big Oil. The security and intelligence industries will likely stand with the bankers. Any serious move against Russia needs the approval of both and I don’t see that as likely or even possible.
All the many recent conflicts are part of the struggle to establish position in the new multi-polar world order. No one really wants to collapse the system but the Anglo-Zionists do understand that they have by far the most to lose. They need to position themselves in such a way as to allow them to pin the blame for a future economic crisis or collapse on Russian ‘revanchism.’ Actually, only the bankers have this problem. For Big Oil, in the medium to long term, prospects are limitless either way. Plenty of oil men (who meet at Bohemian Grove) would love to see Wall Street and London (Bilderberger pansies) get crushed.
Meanwhile Germany wants to tell the Anglo-Zionists to piss off, politely anyway. We are accustomed to seeing Russia and Germany as rivals but there are long historical cycles during which the two countries were close allies. I think the British have finally lost their 200 struggle to control the Eurasian continent and the Germans see the writing on the wall. Some of the media coverage in Germany including the news anchor who was supposedly fired and then started making regular appearances at anti-war protests is very suspcious. New anchors are always trained intel professionals and in this case I believe the German government was conspiring to open up space for themselves to move towards Russia.
This is one hell of a game of poker they’re playin’…
For Ukraine to have shot down MH17 a conspiracy would be necessary. Only a small one, comprising those on high shot would have ordered the shot and then the officers in charge of the battery which would have, at first, but then an ever larger one of silence among the BUK crews and other forces nearby.
The propaganda pay off would have been huge, as we see, but the risk coming from the exposure would be gigantic.
Setting aside this reports conclusion the separatist battery was not in position to do the shoot down the easiest explanation is still a stupid accident on their part.
Just some musings here on someone who always maintains skepticism about conspiracy.
The analysis in the report seems to depend on the debris continuing on for 20km after the plane is hit. Why wouldn’t it be a lot shorter? Have you got any comparision data showing how far debris falls from other aircraft breaking up at that altitude?
Also, can we have less off-topic propaganda
1) In the report
2) in the comments
These are the two primary Anglo-Zionist factions.
List of Bilderberg participants
http://tinyurl.com/ocjoyj
List of Bohemian Club members
http://tinyurl.com/c7na6t7
Notice the lack of overlap between them.
Like we’ve all said a thousand times before — Putin holds Aces.
“Within minutes of hearing of the crash I thought the most likely explanation is that some damn fool rebel was responsible. Probably 95% of the rest of the world thought so also. As a guess probably close to 90% of western Europeans think so also to this day”.
No they don’t. Going by the comments sections in western MSM relating to articles on this story the majority of the public know this for what it is, a monstrous and evil black op by the “exceptionals” and their tame Nazis in kiev.
superiorwoman,
Yes! The dog that just hasn’t barked…
Anonymous 17:54,
Huh?
latest
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1715827.html
It would be consistent that the Ukies shot down the Malaysian airliner. Wasn’t it their own anti-government snipers that shot and killed both police and protesters last winter? No doubt murdering people on their own side was considered “worth it” in the eyes of their fanatical leaders, just as murdering innocent passengers on a plane would be considered “worth it”.
Strelkov was right about the bodies not smelling or looking fresh; Just last night I’ve read somewhere on Russian site the doctor’s expose about the effect of sudden depressurization at 10.000 ft with outside temperature minus 50C. It all corroborates Strelkov’s perceptions; Only the pilot’s cabin was awashed in blood; they died first, before decompression started;
Doctor explains in detail what happens in the body at such time; all the nitrogen and gases inside expand and change the internal organs into a mash; the skin turns green; And it smells bad…
Sorry I didn’t mark the site, but even reading about it made me sick. I’ll try to find it, it was all in Russian.
The Saker’s hypothesis looks the most probable; there was no BUK, but there were 2 planes, as first witnesses reported; There could be a small rocket shot first ( there’s a large hole in the cockpit) and the remaining holes caused by 30 mm bullets; Perhaps 2 Su-25 were not detected because they flew together ( one over the other) till the moment of attack? It bothers me still that witnesses were claiming to see parachutes…
Someone sent me a link to the interview with Alfred Webre. A bit hard to watch it, as the guy is not the best speaker, but there were few interesting points there: about why they chose Malaysian plane for destruction and the Nato drill going simultaneously in UA, and how those drills have tendency “going live” … Whoever wishes to check it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DePBa_vf48o
I’m not a troll – I’d like to play devil’s advocate and ask for thoughts on any the following:
1 Can anyone explain away the report that Strelkov claimed on Twitter to have shot down a plane the morning of the downed flight?
2. Where the heck is Carlos? I read an article that attempted to discredit his Twitter persona as phony propaganda. Surely someone in Spain knows who he is? Has no one tracked this person down?
3 Has no one identified the “decomposed” bodies? Is there no chain of custody back to a family?
Has a passenger manifest been made public?
4 Would it have been possible for Russia to download black box recordings without evidence of tampering?
This explains a lot. Thanks. But
1. The Russian press conference claimed that that day’s flight was on a significantly different course to those earlier in the week.
Can CDN confirm they are right in this?
Can he confirm if it was off course enough to take it from outside to inside the range of missiles located in the active war zone?
2. There were 2 Ukrainian military aircraft shot down about 5 days later. Do we know enough to say where they were shot down from? Could it be separatists or could it be a 2nd and 3rd false flag?
3. My wild conspiracy theory is that the people who created Stuxnet must certainly have attempted to control flight auto-controls. MH370 might have been a botched test run for MH17. Crazy but it does explain why the US have not been able to help in the search for MH370 (A former top Malaysian claimed in April that the US were not helping… … because they were trying to discover just what help China was technically able to deliver) http://beforeitsnews.com/u-s-politics/2014/04/malaysia-pm-top-aide-mh370-us-hidden-agenda-military-tests-unforgivable-2466278.html
The dog that didn’t bark twice.
I am frustrated and angry that (at the least) the Russians, the Dutch, and the British, are all sitting on the data of the flight data recorders and not releasing them.
What is their excuse for such evil?
Lancet Medical Journal Denounces Israel’s Aggression, Targeting of Children, and Attempts to Kill Gaza – Seven Quotes
Posted on July 30, 2014 by Robert Barsocchini
Doctors and scientists, on behalf of 24 signatories, in the peer-reviewed medical journal The Lancet, write:
“An Open Letter for the People of Gaza”
[http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(14)61044-8/fulltext]
Seven crucial quotes:
Gaza is being killed by one of the world’s largest and most sophisticated modern military machines.
This is a “military onslaught on civilians in Gaza”
These attacks aim to terrorize
We witnessed targeted weaponry used indiscriminately and on children
We denounce the myth propagated by Israel that the aggression is done caring about saving civilian lives and children’s well-being.
Israel’s behaviour has insulted our humanity, intelligence, and dignity as well as our professional ethics and efforts.
[S]hould the use of gas be further confirmed, this is unequivocally a war crime for which, before anything else, high sanctions will have to be taken immediately on Israel with cessation of any trade and collaborative agreements with Europe.
The Lancet is a weekly peer-reviewed general medical journal. It is one of the world’s oldest and best known general medical journals, and has been described as one of the most prestigious medical journals in the world. – Wikipedia
http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/lancet-medical-journal-denounces-israels-terrorism-attempts-kill-gaza.html
Novorussia – 21st century revolutionaries.
Russia – leader of the new free world.
Putin – genius.
US – finished.
EU – finished.
Let it rock.
– from Nazi-occupied Amerika
Andrew @ 11:40
Please read carefully as this may be extremely important!
It is my understanding that MH17 was receiving and sending out falsified GPS data.
I have spoken with FlightRadar24 on Twitter. They have confirmed that the coordinates they released are genuine automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B) data picked up by their network over Ukraine. No interpolation between data points. Besides, if it was not for real, how would they know to stop at 13:21:28 UTC? The data for the last FlightRadar24 point from their database:
Latitude: 48.0403 Longitude: 38.7728 Altitude: 33000 ft Speed: 490 nm/s Heading: 118
This point should be right above Snezhnoye (Snizhne).
The Russian military released two totally different flight paths:
1) The recording of what the civilian ATC saw on their semi-analog radar screens. I do not know how these recordings are made, but I assume in the 1980s one would have a video camera pointed at the CRT screen. One source said these “tapes” are kept for two weeks.
The ATC radar somehow combines the ADS-B data transmitted by the S-mode transponder – including the GPS data – to the live data from the primary radar. Usually the GPS data would be correct. It is impossible to say what would be shown if the GPS data was wrong.
The recording confirms the GPS anomaly. The last normal data point, with full transponder data and normal speed and altitude is on the exact same flight path as the FlightRadar24 data, but 11 km short of the last point over Snezhnoye. The point is right over this forested village 51 km in direction 300 degrees from the border waypoint and at least 13 km southeast from where MH17 was hit and the cockpit separated. (I assume the map waypoint is in the middle of the small lake on the Russia–Ukraine border.) After transponder altitude data is lost – I assume the whole transponder – the ATC radar picture again merges with reality and the beep on the screen jumps 5 km north to the actual crash site of the main part of the fuselage.
2) The PowerPoint slide shows a realistic flight path from the northwest to the crash site. The path has a strange deviation to the north after Donetsk. I assume this map is based on military radar, not what the civilian air traffic controllers would have seen.
I believe the GPS anomaly is an indication of foul play and an attempt to direct MH17 to a predetermined target area. Also remember that the Indian pilot overheard MH17 being given direct routing i.e. instructed to fly by satellite and ignore land-based beacons.
Russia Defense Ministry to open social network accounts to bring unbiased info to Pentagon
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/743779
Having viewed videos of BUK launches today, I’d like to point out some things:
1) If you watch the videos, the contrail left by the BUK dissipates VERY quickly depending on the winds. So the lack of a contrail is “evidence by absence”, not real evidence.
2) The explosions reported by witnesses could have been the BUK launches, not the BUK exploding next to the plane. MH17 was not in visual range at 33,000 feet – it’s likely the BUK explosions would have been minimally able to be heard at that altitude depending on how loud they actually are. Granted if they explode with the force of a 155-mm cannon, such explosions are likely able to be heard for miles. 33,000 feet is six miles. But note that the BUK launching would probably be heard for that distance as well. And the BUK would have only needed 21 seconds to reach its target, it’s quite possible the alleged two explosions heard were the BUK launch AND the BUK explosion.
3) Even the sound of the BUK launch and travel is going to disappear quickly because it travels so fast and so high. If you’re not near by – within X miles – you’re not going to see or hear it, contrail or now.
4) I was supportive of the fighter jet attack hypothesis over the BUK missile – or at least would consider that BOTH methods were used. I still consider that an open question, especially the latter proposition. But this report clearly shows that a Ukraine BUK COULD explain ALL of the reported evidence. It especially shows that a BUK located where the Russians have SAID one was located could clearly have been the main culprit.
We have to ask why the Ukraine had BUKs in these locations at all. The militia have no aircraft to defend against. Russia is not attacking Ukraine so Ukraine would not need to defend against such. A BUK missile system is not designed for large-scale air defense in any event. So given that Ukraine HAD these weapons in position, and the positions cited by the Russians were PERFECT for an attack on MH17, it seems clear to me that the probable cause of the shoot down was a Ukraine BUK.
Again, the absence of witnesses to a contrail is not even remotely proof that no BUK was involved. It’s barely even evidence of the sort of “the dog that barked in the night”.
I still allow for the possibility that a Ukraine jet followed up on the BUK strike by a cannon attack. It is almost certain that Ukraine did have a jet there to witness the attack and act as backup if for some reason the BUK missile attack was not a success.
But I think the preponderance of the evidence (the known existence of Ukraine BUKs in the area, and the known capability of the BUK) makes a very good circumstantial case for a Ukraine BUK being the culprit.
If nothing else, as others have noted, this report clearly establishes that a militia BUK – if located where it is claimed to have been located – could not have shot down MH17. That in itself is a win.
Where-Wolf
I’m afraid you’re gravely mistaken thinking that merkel behind her image of “reasonable and calm” is anything but a rather willing uza puppet. And certainly she doesn’t care batshit about what German people desire.
—
@all
There is a point that just keeps to nag at me, the pre-dead deads, the bodies that were already dead and decomposing.
Why?
Because uza or ukratine criminals had some dead bodies somewhere and this was a good chance to get rid of them? Hardly.
Some talk about the MH370 bodies. How sensible would it be to transport them around half the world to put them in MH017? Not at all.
Because uza or ukratine had qualms about sending some hundred living real tourists to death? Hardly.
So, unless there is some mystery stuff behind it (zio has lots of weird numerology, kabalah, and whatnot habits and issues) I can only see one reason: Someone, some involved party, had some rests of a human conscience and hence qualms about killing hundreds of tourists.
Certainly not the israeli part of it (“airport security” as usual) and certainly not the uza side who’s in the habit of killing thousands and even their own tax and war animals, pardon me, I meant “citizens”; and certainly not the mass murderers of the ukratine regime mob.
Which leads me to the netherlanders, who are so frigging quiet and “rational” and want to wait for the results of the investigations.
Yeah, right. Show me the mother whose child just burned and was torn into pieces and smashed to the ground who is reasonably and calmly waiting for the results of an investigation…
Interestingly about the only noise so far from netherlands was a mayor who (dutyfully) outet president Putins daughters exact whereabouts and created some “peoples anger” against … Putin.
So, there’s a hundred or so killed netherlanders but they stay calm and reasonable, except for venting anger against Putin. Uhum.
In other words: they can and do “calmly and reasonably” contain their anger about their dead families. Because they first want to wait for the investigation result. But that very same investigation and reason and calmness is completely lost concerning Putin? Uhum.
My guess: The netherland government is deeply involved – but the netherland way, discretely and calmly – or should I say the “bilderberger way”?. No mass murders, please, and no angry netherland families having lost a member, let’s use pre-fabricated deads. And yes, we will make some limited noise against Putin; we’ll use the fact that his (Pardon me, stupid) daughter lives in a netherland city. Oh, and, please, we don’t want to be too involved in the investigation. Let’s have the brits do that; they have lots of agency cooperation experience with uza.
Dear CDN,
I see I completely forgot to thank you for your analysis of the downing of MH17. That’s a bit rude, so, let me correct myself, ‘Thank you.’
I think it is utterly critical to give/share one’s view with others. It is like we are all looking at a crystal ball [no pun intended]. It looks circular from whatever angle we look at it, but once we begin to describe what we see from our pov [have learned/seen/watched/studied/etc.] we will be able to detect it is actual a 3D object with depth.
298 innocent lives have been sacrificed on the altar of the Zianglo god of greed and selfishness. No matter what we say or do, they will never come back.
Are there any Dutch readers out there that can inform us as to how your country has dealt with all this?
Thanks in advance and again, thank you CDN.
Here is a simulation of what Singapore Air 351 pilots would have seen if a BUK missile was launched from the location indicated by Russian satellite imagery (about halfway down page):
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=22759
My conclusion: if a BUK was launched it would have easily been seen by SA351 crew and passengers.
CDN:
Your excellent prior comments on Saker’s site made me ask why no news organization was even attempting to undertake a similar analysis.
Seriously? I am honored to have been your inspiration. But you’ve gone way beyond my few suggestions. I am truly impressed with your own insights and work.
I have a different theory in regard to the aircraft observed on scene.
I am trying an Ockhams’ Razor approach – keep the actions to a small manageable storyline that does not require “a vast [Ukrainian] conspiracy”. Thus, either air defense exercises gone wrong, or air defense exercises used as cover for a larger purpose.
the TELARs are networked with the command vehicle then an operator in the command vehicle is able to assign missiles to targets and deliver a remote launch command. … interviews with a group of UAF servicemen who will claim they were sitting around when the missile “just went off by itself. Honest!”
I have heard that regarding the first point and agree with the possible scenario of the second assuming malicious action. In case of an innocent mistake, it can be blamed on system malfunction causing an accidental launch. Ukies have not practiced allegedly with live ammo since the downing of Siberian 1812.
The Telegraph has / had a post with a visual map reference and an image from the purported launch site toward Saur Moglia.
Alleged Rebel BUK at:
47^58’26” North
38^45’37” East
Exactly 2km due east of Pervomaiskyi village behind a row of trees.
The Ukrainian Buk’s at:
47^59’00″N
38^27’03″E
and
47^59’00″N
38^27’00″E
750M due south of Zaroschenske Village
I think your most conservative assumption would be to put the reported final flight bearing of 117^30′ from TAMAK Waypoint
47^51’23″N
39^13’00″E
as the flight path at impact and draw your line back from there. On Google Earth this is a direct line from the dot representing Yenakijeve and TAMAK.
An intersection point is northwest of Kirovske village. I agree with the deflection of the plane by the missile, but would suggest the diversion was a curved path, not a direct intersection. Possibly the entire fall was on a curve due to the aerodynamics of the plane breaking apart. This would account for the ejection of the cockpit and tail to the south of the fall path.
I also noticed this interesting conclusion tonight:
http://ukrainepost.blogspot.com/2014/07/mh17-tamak-waypoint_17.html
If they had fully carried through the math, thought about the detection range and flight time, they would have seen Snizhne to be impossible as they recognize the 1 minute missile flight time.
Too many people are confused and think the plane just falls down instead of taking a ballistic trajectory.
Why did MH17 leave L-69 for L-980 and then why did it attempt to return?
According to the Flight Plan I have seen, it was supposed to be flying Air Path L980. So the real question is what it was doing in L69 to begin with, as it implies it was diverted between Kiev and Dnipropetrovsk or the pilot got lost at GANRA waypoint and accidentally headed for Donetsk. At Donetsk it looks like it used Air Path W533 (?) to recover to L980 over Gorlivka.
On a related topic, others have asked why there were no witnesses and no smoke path. Well, that is because the press has focused on asking people in Torez and Snizhne about the BUK missile and crash, and not people Shakhtarsk. Also, the wind was blowing rather strongly WNW to ESE so the contrail would have dispersed towards Russia over unpopulated areas as the missile took its upward trajectory during the 15 second burn.
One commenter mentioned that the report should have a title. I’d like to suggest, “The Red Herring That Didn’t Fly”
— New Straits Times
” Was MH17 Finished Off
With a Guns Kill? “
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BuVxyeICcAAfB-X.jpg:large
An interesting piece in a Malaysian news online (first read on fr.rian.ru) states that it could have been a canon that made the holes in the cockpit indeed.
http://www.nst.com.my/node/20961
Malaysians are very interested to know the truth.
For those wishing to see families of the dead reactions, there are some in other pages of this online journal.
Hola Saker!
RE from the Doomstead Diner here.
We would like to do a Podcast with you focused on Global Geopolitics for the Collapse Cafe podcasts.
Please contact me on the Diner if you would like to do a podcast.
RE
Admin
http://doomsteaddiner.net
http://collapsecafe.com
Rutte said that it now appears “fortunately that more was done after the disaster than we thought until now.”
Local Ukrainian authorities carried out “an intensive search in the area with 800 volunteers, and there were many bodies recovered in those (first) days,” he said. LINK to Yahoo
Let it be noted that these 800 volunteers risked their lives trying to find body and body parts, while the OSCE team remained holed up in Kiev, citing nearby war skirmishes as too close and dangerous…
I guess these 800 will not be hailed as heroes in the west.
CDN 17:59
“The shrapnel is heated by the explosion so that it is white hot. The precise metallurgy is unknown but it is expected that white hot cubes would quickly turn into high speed white hot blobs and take on a circular rather than a cubic shape. This accounts for the round exit holes which are larger than expected for 30mm cannon fire.”
That defeats the purpose of fragmentation. The intent is to convert the energy of the explosive into kinetic energy of the much smaller fragments (via 1/2 * m * v * v). The missile and target may have relative speeds on several km/s so there is very little time (< 1 ms?) for this purported heating to occur along with movement from explosion point to target. The energy involved in heating the fragments would greatly detract from the energy available to increase the fragment velocity. Whilst I have not gone through approximate energy transfer calculations, I do not buy your conjectured explanation. Remember that Buks are intended to attack airplanes much smaller, much faster and much more protected (e.g. thick titanium inner cockpit in an A10) than civilian airliners. All of these factors mitigate against wasting time and energy heating metal to a molten state.
A high-explosive warhead with proximity/radar fuse is an entirely different matter.
Sure enough, “german national interest has never been so clear” but ideology usually prevails on rationality and Israel security, hence Israel interests are part of Germany “national ethos”; as Merkel said recently it is “our raison d’être”. See http://jewish-voice-from-germany.de/cms/angela-merkel-the-interview/
I read the full report and to me it makes a very good case for at the very least “malicious intent”.
Basically, no way how you spin it, this aircraft was taken down on purpose. And right back where we started on 17 July, the question can once again be asked: Who benefits?
The answer is very clear and even before the verdict was out the victim was hung.
‘News filtering into us here in the BBC News room this past few minutes. The cockpit recordings of MH17 have just been released, let’s have a listen…
“…Mr.Putin, please I beg of you to put the gun down and leave the cockpit at once, there are 300 innocent passengers on board”
“Nyet, you will all pay for what you have done to Mother Russia. But first, just let me put on my parachute”
“Mr.Putin, please God, nooooooo”
[GUNFIRE] [EXPLOSION]’
Here is a very different story:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/systematically-reconstructing-the-shoot-down-of-the-malaysian-airliner-mh17-the-guilt-is-clear-and-damning/5395070
Having halted the MH17 ‘international investigation’ and the ‘ceasefire’ around the crash site, that means that assets have been infiltrated and prepositioned for the next false flag. MH17 has been resolved: ‘we will never know’ (but Russia did it). However, the junta will do whatever it takes to try to take out the resistance without conducting an extended siege of Donetsk and Lugansk. So prepare for chemical terror, nuclear terror, possibly within the next several days so that NATO can use the excuse of the immininent ‘Russian invasion’ for fast action . . .
Report refering to image 4 says ” The green segment extending back along MH17’s track represents the distance travelled between 1623 and 1620, the time the citizens of Torez reported hearing one or two loud explosions and the time MH17 disappeared from ATC radar. The yellow segment” but the green segment which is supposed to represent 3 mins flight is far too short, it is less than the length of the yellow segment which it says “represents the 21 second flight time of the missile”. Also the circle in figure 4 should be centered on the impact point not on a point 21 seconds prior to impact since the circle represents the range of a buk from the impact point. If you want a circle from the end of the yellow line, the diameter of the circle should be set by the detection radius of the Telar radar not the missile range of 35km.
Looks like Maidan 3.0 has started. Tanks in the middle of Kiev. The mayor has barricaded himself & staff inside whatever they call their city hall.
Hilarity ensues.
Saker, thanks for the info and thanks to CDN for his work.
Can you find out if Carlos Spainbuca is alive and well? He must have a family. Is he in hiding? He should be. He is a material witness to this investigation.
I think that Every country should grow all of their own food if it is possible, and that they should not use genetically modified organisms.
They should as much as possible be Vegan, and any lack of Vitamins and Minerals should be remedied with Vitamins and Mineral supplements.
We know that the Countries of the Eurasian Customs Zone will trade in food, but they should become Vegans and grow all of their food, and Trade among Eurasian Customs Union Countries should not include food or beverages for Trade, because it could be a method of advanced Biological Warfare in the future.
Even deserts can have hydroponic, and if the cost of food is the only consideration, then perhaps Leningrad during WW 2 should be thought of to know that something could go wrong with genetically modified organisms, or that it is just sensible to never depend on others for food.
What this means is that Land should be leased to People if they will become Technological Peasants in Modern Villages to grow food, and to have at least a one year reserve of food, and the powdered and dehydrated food is the easiest to store and to transport, because it is light weight and compact.
I have read an Article on Ebola, and there is a reference to an anonymous Doctor who gives an alleged cure at http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2014/08/alternative-info-on-potential-ebola-cure-3007132.html , and I read one comment say that “ultra high dosages will not be needed for prevention, and that 12 grams of Vitamin C per day, with each 1,000 milligram tablet taken at regularly intervals for preventive purposes, but more that amount will be needed daily if a Person comes down with Ebola”, but I do not know anything on this matter, and People are free to do their own research.
It would seem that not travelling by planes might be good at this time, and I think that it is good for All Countries to be self sufficient in food, even though they can Trade with other things.
I was mistaken about the orientation of the cockpit.
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/List_of_MH17_airframe_parts
Check out hires pic of Cockpit central window frame, The seat we see undamaged seems to be the copilots seat. Seems not much is left of the pilot. But we can clearely see entry holes on the floor or the pilots area. The picture of the floor is at an angle of almost 90degrees on the ground. IF so then this was not A2A or cannon fire but a BUK missile hit. The SU25 had to have been around the 10 oc clock position to fire like this but the top of the cockpit was found 8km away without damage to the copilots side. So the missile exploded around 2 oclock on the pilots side and the sharpnel went through the floor under the pilot. We can clearly see entry holes in the hires pic. The SU25 was climbing so there it could have fired from under the plane from 7 oclock position but the floor does not show entry holes.
Remember that time when the US Navy shot down a civilian airliner, and then tried to cover it up?
See http://alb.merlinone.net/mweb/wmsql.wm.request?oneimage&imageid=5494333
I’m an old woman and my eyes glaze over with all this boy-talk about stuff I don’t know how to shoot. The first thing I said when this abomination happened was that the plane was sent off-course as a way of getting more Junta boots on the ground. Although I didn’t think they’d be “Australian” and “Dutch”, it’s still exactly what happened and all you really need to know. And the ongoing attacks there by Kiev are simply to obfuscate whatever else might still be there. Petri’s stuff, btw, is very good and very thought-provoking as to the “hows”, but I’m with james@wpc: we’re all getting sidetracked by “The Red Herring That Didn’t Fly”. ;~)
Everything going on right now has very much the feel of the run-up to WWI. If, Inshallah, that doesn’t happen, we’ll get the real details later; if it does, they won’t much matter.
ON June 14th, the militia shot down a Ukie transport plane and killed 49 men aboard.
The reaction across the world was explosive, outraged, all the principal characters making enormous statements of protests, as if the plane was sacred, not part of the war effort, protected and now violated by this act of war.
June 14. One month later, they had the world primed for another outrage. Much larger. Aimed at the pariah Putin.
But the fuckups fucked up.
What do you expect from the Nuland-Biden-CIA advisory corps?
It’s easy to burn people alive in buildings, to rape and strangle pregnant women, to maim and destroy innocent children, to rain down artillery on people in parks and in their homes.
But to nail an airliner and have it fall where you want it? And to have to use Ukie ATC under the nose of Russian Intel captures? All the while hoping the outrage will be a hundred fold over the reaction on June 14th.
Only the amateurs sociopaths teaming up with the psychopaths of Maidan could have dreamed up such a spectacular disaster for themselves.
If it wasn’t so tragic, it would make another sequel of Dumb and Dumber.
And then, you have the State Department spinwhores trying to attach the disaster to terrorists paid for by Putin (who, they insist is worth hundreds of billions of dollars).
Hell, if Putin was who they say he is, they’d elect him President of the World. The monster they make of him is the monster they dream of as their Cult Leader.
BuK, air-to-air, cannon shots—what difference does it make? (to quote Hillary).
It was a fucked up gambit and it’s all theirs.
Pardon my language. But I love words, uncensored, with their full cultural impact. It’s how I express my Freedom. Boorish. Impolite. But it harms no one.
I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it. But some time ago, months before MH17 crash, an unnamed U.S. agency (maybe CIA?) aquired two SU-27 (trainer configuration) from Ukraine, via a mysterious private U.S. company.
The perfect choice to carry out a false flag on MH17 or even MH370.
Just speculation of course.
http://acloserlookonsyria.shoutwiki.com/wiki/List_of_MH17_airframe_parts
Good photo’s on this site but and same conclusions.
Wayne Madsen at http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2014/07/21/mh-17-beware-of-the-chameleon.html
provides a gazillion details and points his finger at Israel and Kolomoisky. Madsen writes,
“The presence of a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 in Tel Aviv, the mysterious disappearance of a second Malaysian Boeing 777 on a flight from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing, and the attack on yet a third Amsterdam-to-Kuala Lumpur Malaysian Boeing 777 over eastern Ukraine may be more than coincidental. (…) The seizure of the air traffic control center at Borispol by allies of Kolomoisky shortly before the shooting down of MH-17 and Kolomoisky’s strong links to Israel, which benefitted immensely from the downing of MH-17 because it drew the attention of the world’s media away from its ground invasion of Gaza, which began just as initial reports about the fate of MH-17 were being transmitted, may be the real story behind the loss of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 and the horrible deaths of its 298 passengers and crew.”.
Here is another analysis posted by globalresearch.ca based in part on what appears to be high calibre bullet holes in cockpit of MH17- MH17 shot down by UKE fighter jets http://www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814
@ Anders 07 Aug 00:13
Quoting you:
“Just last night I’ve read somewhere on Russian site the doctor’s expose about the effect of sudden depressurization at 10.000 ft with outside temperature minus 50C. It all corroborates Strelkov’s perceptions; Only the pilot’s cabin was awashed in blood; they died first, before decompression started; Doctor explains in detail what happens in the body at such time; all the nitrogen and gases inside expand and change the internal organs into a mash; the skin turns green; And it smells bad…”
Long ago, in a past life, I was a military aviator. As part of our regular training we were exposed to altitude chamber “rides”. My recollection is that we were subjected to rapid decompression from a cabin altitude of about 5000ft (1500m) to 42000ft (13000m) in about a second. I can assure you that no one’s organs changed into mash, and neither did anyone’s skin turn green and smell bad. We simply put on our oxygen masks and continued breathing (oxygen under pressure).
A little critical thinking would quickly indicate that what you describe couldn’t possibly be correct, because if it were, aviation at such altitudes would not be safe unless everyone wore pressure suits. What you are recounting is either some fool’s imagination running wild, or deliberate disinformation. I will be polite here, and not accuse you of being a source of disinformation.
Nobody mentions kernel Berndt Biedermann, ex East German Army who is an expert on Russian air defense systems and claims buk shrapnel would ignite the airplane immediately because of friction while CDN says only if it would explode near the tank. Who is right? Its established the plane disintegrated in mid air and the fire started when it hit the ground.
As I pointed out in a more recent thread up until Saturday, the Ukies are now suddenly coming out with the claim that it was THE RUSSIANS trying to execute a false flag through the rebels by shooting down an Aeroflot Boeing, who shot down MH17 by mistake. Seems to me they’re getting pretty desperate knowing even if they pull an SBU slice and dice redaction job on the flight recorder ATC conversations the Russians and possibly the Malays have unedited copies. Thus SBU needs to claim ‘it was a Russian agent at Borispol ATC who ordered MH17 further north over a known Air Defense Zone’.
Even the trendy usually pro-Kiev Guardian’s reporter Shaun Walker isn’t buying it:
https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/497368784035147776
Ukraine’s SBU says Russia planned to shoot down Aeroflot plane as pretext for war, shot MH17 by accident. Bullshit alert levels: pretty high
RETWEETS
133
FAVORITES
64
6:08 AM – 7 Aug 2014
http://20committee.com/2014/08/07/latest-ukrainian-intelligence-news/
Good luck @20Committee aka John R. Schindler peddling your ‘SBU is a reliable source’ bullcrap to the gullible, in the tank for NSA and NATO journos.
Polish (!), pro-Maidan commenter who claims to have traveled to the ‘ATO zone’ in Eastern Ukraine tells SBU/NSA shill John R. Schindler Ukraine is lying about its KIA:
“And Ukraine lies a lot. It lowers the number of volunteer soldiers dying in the ATO zone by 5 times at least, it twists the facts as it wishes in a lot of scopes.”
http://20committee.com/2014/08/07/latest-ukrainian-intelligence-news/#comment-15999
Mr. Pragma (7.Aug, 01:55),
you’re raising two points, about the Merkel puppet, and the reasonably rotting calmness of the phree-phalling Dutchmen (sorry, but see below).
About the Merkel puppet: Yes, I agree with you 100%. Strikes me as funny how foreigners (and I’m German) keep seeing more than an obsequious Gollum like creature in Angela Merkel. She’s been placed there by the Americans and she’s doing their job, that’s the main point. Had Germany continued in the sain Gerhard Schröder vector, Europe wouldn’t be in this mess by now. Have to admit, I sometimes nurture the hope that Merkel secretly will serve Germany’s interests and not those of the occupying Western powers, but she simply doesn’t freaking deliver! Never! Granted, the position she occupies is an important one, a pivotal one, but she, as a chancellor, has been a complete failure for nearly ten years now.
Second, the rotten corpses. Again, I agree with you 100%. Those reports of rottenness simply cannot be dismissed. Why would anyone make that up? Even Western journalists reported it in the direct aftermath of the crash. That must have been one hell of a flying rotten morgue.
Origin of the corpses? Why not MH370. Could also be Guantanamo or some such institution. Call me a conspiracy fool, but I don’t believe MH370 really disappeared. I believe it was recycled over Ukraine. To me, this *proves* CIA or similar involvement.
Why not just use flying Dutchmen? The Dutch government would have objected. Word would have spread among Europe’s leaderships. Simple as that. The leaders don’t want to alienate their vassals more than necessary. Would be counter-productive.
By the way, do you remember the news on national grievance day in Holland? “Even the windmills would stand still for a minute.” I went »What?!« Wtf was that, did I hear that correctly? Sorry, but that was just too much panaché on the news.
That’s when I reach for my … search engine! Twice did I google Dutch crash victims, and twice did I run in utter and complete fakes, massive fakes, badly botched and horribly hobbled fake jobs. Please take a look at this ridiculous CNN report featuring absurdly amateurish fakers (only three and a half minutes):
Mother of MH17 victim calls out Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FKbS8PO3P8
Question is why on Earth did anyone pay these losers to do this fake job? Answer is, to try and cover up. Massive fail!
Here’s the second fake, I could hardly believe it when I read this phreakin’ phakery … First, okay, it’s probably a rumour site or something (I hadn’t seen it before), but please observe that the guy starting the topic raises a valid point (about probabilities). What I’d like to draw your attention to, though, is what happens next: A whole bunch of Dutch and Belgian phakers show up on this obscure forum to attest that they know people who knew the victims, or even knew them directly and are now grieving, and taking their grief to that forum … right … Please read, the first one says »I am a close friend of Allard.«
Facebooks of passengers on MH 17 fishy…
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message2594409/pg1
And there’s many more fakers coming (might all be crafted by a single guy, of course), and they refine their approach, adopting different tactics. I have frequently seen phorum phakes in our MSM (and they slip their fakeries here on this forum, too), but I’ve never seen such hopeless failures as in this MH17 case.
Anyway, I learnt something: These fakes are referred to as »shills«.
I Was a Paid Internet Shill
http://goo.gl/LK8VkV
Is that report authentic? I have no idea. Is it plausible based on my experience as a reader? It definitely is.
Bottom line: We’re witnessing a massive deployment of paid fakers and shills to lend credence to the meme of »Dutch victims«, but it badly backfires because of abysmal quality issues, and this happens against an unexplainable backdrop of rotten corpses. This is an unbelievably huge fail.
Good points from the system dynamics people at the Automatic Earth web site!
“Did you, in the midst of the 24/7 wall of words, manage to keep track of the fact that no part of any BUK rocket was ever found at the crash site? Are you also wondering where the Ukraine secret service took the Air Traffic Control recordings 3 weeks ago, and what we’ll be told about them, if anything, ever? It took, what, 24 hours, for the ATC logs from the still unlocated MH370 to be made public…
How about the black boxes, that had not been tampered with as Kiev had alleged? All we’ve heard so far out of the ‘lab’ in Britain where they were taken is that there was nothing out of the ordinary on them. So where’s the info? Why not go public with it?”
source:
http://www.theautomaticearth.com/debt-rattle-aug-7-2014-europe-teeters-on-the-edge/
There have been a lot of interesting and useful comments (on topic) mixed in here. I agree that it is most useful and critical to establish whether the militia could have shot down the plane and the answer seems pretty clearly to be no. Second in importance (not by much) is how (and who).
If I am not mistaken the data the Russians released says nothing about a missile launch – just talks about BUK battery placement and activity at the time of the shoot-down. If a BUK was launched why did they not say so based on their data? It is only the Americans who have said they detected a missile launch but have not released their data.
The Russians, eye witness accounts, and Carlos’ tweets all talk about 1 or two fighter jets. I believe this to be a critical fact.
I also believe that a forensic analysis by experts who are familiar with the possible range of weapons used and their effects could make short work of the ‘how’ question if they had access to the wreckage.
CDN – are you attempting a revision? Thanks for what you put together.
james@wpc said…
One commenter mentioned that the report should have a title. I’d like to suggest, “The Red Herring That Didn’t Fly”
07 August, 2014 03:42
What a nasty little troll on CDN and the work he did.
SBU says the missile was launched from Pervomaiske:
SBU: “At 16:20 from the area of ‘Pervomaiske’ village, north-east from Donetsk, near the town of Torez, terrorists shot down the Malaysian jet, which then crashed near Grabove, Donetsk region.”
http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/en/publish/article?art_id=129860&cat_id=35317
Anonymous 05:21,
Sure bothered you, didn’t it.
Why?
Oh, and btw, he’s hardly a troll! ;~)
(can’t stop laughing…)