Dear friends,
To my surprise many (most?) of the comments I got yesterday were related to my question about whether to write about the history of the Russian Orthodox Church in the 20th century or not. Thanks to all those who replied! And the various comments have given me an idea which I want to run by you:
What if, instead of writing a 10’000 words essay (I am only slightly exaggerating!) about the history of the Russian Orthodox Church in the past 100 years (or more!) I did something much, much simpler? Here is my idea:
It is my claim that 95% or more of so-called “Christian denominations” are Christian only in name and that this is empirically and logically provable! The *only* element required to be able to do so is a correct understanding of what the original Christians (at the time of Christ, His Apostles and the Fathers) adopted as their “criteria of truth”! Once you (really) “get” “just” that it becomes comically simple to prove that modern “Christianity” has almost nothing in common with the original Christianity of Christ and the Church He Founded.
This is as true for the Latins, as it is for the MP or for the innumerable sects resulting from the Reformation. Furthermore, I also note with horror that 95% or more of the people who sincerely think of themselves as “Christians” don’t even know the very basics of what Christianity is. So the real problem is not that this or that off-shot of Christianity sincerely, but mistakenly, thinks of itself as “Christian”, the problem is that the overwhelming majority of those who seek to truly follow the commandments and teachings of Christ do not have the means to find out what these commandments and teachings are!
Yeah, yeah, I know, solo scriptura and all that! Sounds good in theory, but in practice this is literally a chain-reaction like phenomenon in which the more the slogan solo scriptura is chanted, the more denominations result from this. Not exactly what Saint Paul intended when wrote “One Lord, one faith, one baptism“…
So rather than dealing with lofty and subtle issues of Patristic teachings on ecclesiology or dogmatic anthropology, which would be a waste of time in our post-Christian societies, why don’t I “go minimal“? What I am thinking is to start a series of short “Christian vignettes” dealing with basic but important issues: what is the purpose of our life? what is our nature? what is a “saint”? what is the “Church”? What did Christ teach about His Church? How did the Fathers deal with heresies and schisms? What is the “symphony of power” and how is it different from the “caesaropapism” invented by western “theologians”? How did the Fathers deal with all the innumerable crises (persecutions, heresies, schisms, infiltrations by enemies. etc.) the Church of Christ faced in its history (especially since “there is nothing new under the sun” and we have no commandment to reinvent the wheel over and over and over again!)? etc. etc. etc. Yes, one could write several PhD theses on any of those deceptively “simple” questions, but my goal would be to write a short vignette and maybe add a few useful links to some relevant text.
Again, I won’t be “going after” the Latins, the Sergianists or anybody else. I will just present what I believe is the “real thing” and you can them compare and contrast it with whatever putatively “Christian” denomination at your own leisure (or not).
Believe me, when, for example, the Latins and the Orthodox use the exact same words (Virgin Mary, Church, grace, sin, redemption, tradition, authority, obedience, etc.) they appear to be using the same categories. In reality they never do, because the meaning they give to these concepts are radically different. So I would probably start with simply worded Orthodox definitions (understanding) of some basic concepts.
Here is my underlying view of the original of the Church: Christ very much came into the world to create an “organized religion”, in fact I would even describe it as *highly* organized (at least in theory, on the day to day parish life, not so much, alas!). He created His Church. Over the centuries, the external power, influence and authority of this Church in the world went through many ups and downs, and the fall of the entire West into schism and heresy resulted in the post-Christian society we live in today. That original Church of Christ still exists today, but it is small, almost tiny. But compared to the times of, Saint Maximos the Confessor, the Church of Christ is booming and doing great! In fact, any QUANTITATIVE argument in defense of any faith is a logical and spiritual fallacy and was, therefore, never used by the Fathers. It so happens that my life has lead me to this tiny “spiritual island” (the traditional image would be one of a vessel with Christ at its helm) which is in the world, but not of the world, and which truly (in its essence) is still the same, a-temporal, Church Christ founded 2000 years ago. I want to share what I found there, if only to convincingly prove that that which is nowadays is commonly referred to as “Christianity” has nothing in common with the real thing. What I propose to do is to begin my demonstration with the very basics.
My suggestion for a first such vignette? The question of “how much is enough”, i.e. how big (# of followers or # of bishops) or small can the Church of Christ be to still qualify as the original Church of Christ? Would one true Christian (however you defined this concept) on a desert island still be “The Church”? How about 10 Christians and I will even toss in 4 deacons, 2 priests and even one bishop! So “Church” or “no-Church”? True, I did hint at the correct answer above, but I did not explain it. So – interested or not?
Let me repeat here: the original Church, as created by Christ and His Apostles still exists today, this Church has lived through very different historical periods and it has therefore appeared to be externally changing. And sometimes this Church did change. Externally. But in its essence, we know two things: that the Church of Christ is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth which will never and, in fact, cannot “change”, if only because “change” is something which happens over time, whereas the (real) Church is “outside time”.
The Latins call themselves “The Church” and even lapsed-Latins STILL call the Latin Church “The Church”. Why? Well, because of the Pope, of course! What other religion can claim to be headed by this putatively “infallible” superstar with his Papamobiles and an opinion about everything, especially secular matters?! (note for non-Latins: Latins do NOT claim that the Pope is always right, but only when he speaks “officially”, in his quality of Pope, and on issues of faith and morality. But still, this is a crazy notion, especially if one accepts the Augustinian/Thomistic views on original sin and salvation!).
“Infallibility” is another perfect example! The original Christians have always believed that the True One Church of Christ is infallible in its essence being the Theandric Body of Christ filled with the Holy Spirit. But while the ENTIRE CHURCH is infallible, no single individual, not even a saint, is infallible. The Latins trasferred that which was always considered an attribute of the entire Conciliar Church into one man. Do yes, both Christians and Latins speak of “infallibility” – but what we mean by that are diametrically opposed concepts!
The truth is that real Christianity is completely in-compatible with not only modern “values”, it is in direct contradiction with the vast majority of the tenets/beliefs/certitudes of our post-Christian world. So all the forms of “Christianity” which “go with the times” and innovate are, by definition, axiomatically NOT Christian. Again, that could be the topic of a short “vignette” which can demonstrate that in 2, max 3, paragraphs.
So I want to set the record strait: I only propose to restate present what I believe is a truly Christian understanding of issue/concept “X” and I leave you, the reader, the freedom to choose to accept or reject what I submit (like in an AA meeting!). I could start with a vignette entitled “a Christian view of pragmatism” or “why are there so many religions?” or even “what is progress” or can dogmas change and, if yes, which ones?”. I am really talking about the basic “building blocks” of the original Christianity.
So, rather than dealing with the Papacy, the MP or the innumerable Evangelical sects, I will simply present you with a short summary how of original Christianity was different. Then, at least, you will be equipped to try to ascertain the degree of actual Christianity in your own denomination (or in the denominations you criticize if you are an agnostic/atheist).
Finally, I will place these “vignettes” in my “sandbox” for two reasons: first, this is probably not a topic most readers will be interested in; second these will be short, quickly written, items (“vignettes”) which do not fit into any other category (and I sure am not creating a new, separate, category for that).
So, good idea or goody idea?
Kindest regards to all,
The Saker
PS: one more idea I just had: I could ask a person (I trust does know real, Patristic, Christianity) for his/her “vignette” on this or that topic. That would make this all much more interesting since different persons would present their understanding of these issue, not just one guy!
IMPORTANT PPS: speaking of “just one guy”. Yes, I do have a formal (academic) education in Patristics (aka Traditional Orthodox Theology), but that still leaves me “just a guy”! I have NO clerical title, NO blessing from anybody to teach (though, technically speaking, by Licentiate does give me that right, at least in a seminary) and I claim NO original insights whatsoever, nevermind anything even remotely resembling any “authority” of any kind. I have received absolutely NO charisma whatsoever besides my baptism! I am but a sinful layman, please never forget that, and never let me forget that either!
Well this is an interesting thought.
My first response is who do you see as the Jan Huss of 2021?
I doubt if anyone is going down that path.
Why are you so sure Mr Richard F. Ames of TV note isn’t answering some or all of the important questions?
Why are some of the truly profound understandings taught by Mr Herbert W. ARMSTRONG insufficient?
Many of your audience could probably eat you for breakfast, metaphorically speaking.
Are you not therefore at risk of offending them?
My first response is who do you see as the Jan Huss of 2021?
With all due respect to Jan Huss, the 15th century is not much of a reference to me. My system of reference is more focused on the first 900 years of Christianity, preferably the first 3-4 centuries (and, of course, Saint Gregory Palamas, arguably the most brilliant theologian since Saint Maximos the Confessor!).
But if you mean a man of total faith (as Jan Huss) or of truly Apostolic/Patrastic dimension, I can think of quite a few in the 20th century, but I doubt that you would have heard about them. There still is one such bishop today in the USA. Remember that bishops are also sinful humans, even the saints, so it is unhelpful to personalize things too much. Besides, Jan Huss is a major historical figure, as was Bishop Bishop Josip (Strossmayer) – it is very unfair to compare even a very good bishop to these giants. I always says this: “ALL which I ask of my bishop is that he be TRULY Orthodox”. That is the ONLY quality I am entitled to demand from him. Other than that, who am I to dare judge any bishop living in our truly terrible times!
Saker:
Would one true Christian (however you defined this concept) on a desert island still be “The Church”?
Answer:
“For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.” Matthew 18:20
I think Bibblicism Institute has done a bang-up job on that question of yours, especially as they tackle that question here:
https://biblicisminstitute.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/church-services-are-not-biblical/
I think along with your vignettes, you should post some of their stuff here as well and propagate the biblical truth even further. You and BI could become the “where 2 or 3 are gathered” in that verse.
Blessings.
“To avert from men God’s wrath
Jesus sufferred in our stead;
By an ignominius death
He a full atonement made;
And by His most precious blood
Brought us sinners, nigh to God”
“But examine first your case,
Whether you be in the faith;
Do you long for pardoning grace?
Is your only hope His death?
Then, however your soul’s opprest,
Come you are a worthy guest”
Composed by John Huss, circa 1400, several years before his martyrdom. Oldest Moravian Hymn known.
Chris Hedges … a journalist and graduate of the Harvard Divinity School. Maybe a dialog?
FYI Saker :-)
As a writer and thinker/philosopher, I have immense respect for Chris Hedges and I love his books! But in religious terms, Hedges is a said product of modern pseudo-theology with no roots in Christianity (other than the Christian ethics, and even that only to some moderate degree).
Please get me right: I have ZERO interest in what modern “Christian” “theologians” have to say about Christianity. Zero. Sub-zero even!
With a few very notable exceptions (the names of Met. Cyprian of Blessed Memory and Archb. Chrysostomos, and Saint Justin Popovich come to mind, Archp. George Florovsky, Met Antonii Khrapovitskii, Saint Filaret, Father Lev Lebedev, Father John Romanides, Father Seraphim Rose, Vladimir Losskii, and quite a few others), I stay away from “theologians”.
Put it differently – since there really is NOTHING really new under the son, whatever was good enough for the Church Fathers is good enough for me. The rest is mostly a waste of precious time.
So – talk to Hedges would be a dream come true for me, but I would stay away from theological topics :-)
Cheers
Oh and “Harvard Divinity School” is not something I take seriously, sorry, I really can’t!
Dear Saker,
I would be very interested to read your vignettes. I know little about the Orthodox Church. But do you believe that all persons who consider themselves Christians are not Christian if they do not belong to the Orthodox faith? I understand that the zeitgeist is un-Christian, but is it not possible to be Christian in such a world, and is it not possible to a Christian without being Orthodox?
okay, one vote counted, thank you!
I am in the same category as Mr. Johnson and would be very interested in reading your vignettes. Thank you!
I’m anxiously awaiting your vignettes. My Mother was Russian Orthodox and my Father was Baptist. They settled on raising their children Episcopalian. I don’t think I learned a damn thing about Jesus Christ and quit church after high school. That was 35 years ago and now I realize our society is morally bankrupt and can’t help but think turning away from God is the reason why.
Let me tell you something you might not expect:
You have A HUGE advantage over all those putative Christians!!! HUGE!
My entire life I have seen that agnostics, military atheists, even pagans are MUCH easier to educate in true Christianity than those poor souls who sincerely believe that they are Christians and that they belong to THE CHURCH (all in caps!). Their real tragedy is that they must UN-learn almost everything they thought they knew about Christianity! Compared to post-Christians pagans are all at least potential-Christians.
There is nothing harder than to prove to a Latin that he is not a Christian. Not because this demonstration is objectively hard, but because before you place the right thing inside a soul you have to first remove all the rot which currently pollutes it.
Heck! I might even make a vignette just about that :-)
Thank you!
Saker: I vote FOR the vignettes.
Your comment about needing to unlearn everything they thought they knew . . . . touched a vital spot in my mind.
I view my entire intellectual journey as a continuous process of discovering that I had been misinformed about — pretty much everything.
Spent six years in a Latin church religious order seminary. You might say I had a lot to unlearn. Not sure how much I really did learn. Your occasional writings on this blog about religion have poured water on a very dry area of my soul.
While we are here, what about the Emperor Flavius story, that he invented Jesus and the New Testament to add a peaceful chapter to the Jewish hateful anger against the Roman occupiers, this referred to in the Death Sea Rolls?
There is a clear difference in tone between the old and new testament. Actually the thought of Roman conspiracy stroked myself when I searched, before I saw it mentioned in discussions on the net.
What if it is all one big scam, like all the other scams? We believed the oil would end year 2000, we believed the earth was flat because the Pope said so, we believed the weather is changing to disasters, because cows fart.
——-
Let’s try this thought experiment: 10 people, all numbered from 1 to 10, give their answer to the question 2+2=?
#1 says 1, #2 says 2, #3 says 3 etc.
So we get 10 different answers. Nine of which are incorrect.
Is that a reason to abolish or ridicule arithmetics?
The Saker
The story of ‘Emperor Flavius’ inventing Jesus is unadulterated BS excreted by unscrupulous hoaxers who will always find morons ready to buy it.
Even religious Jews don’t buy that crap!
Tells you how ignorant such view really is
It reminds about group thinking. Multi-choice, four actors says 2+2=7 and the fifth guy says the same because he cant go against the group (authority).
Personally Im 100% in on the God and Jesus narrative but only because it is logical and the only telling which make sense of our life and universe.
But it requires a bone to cut through all the smoke, and I understand why non-believers are running away screaming when they see the hypocrisy and money making in organised religion. Satan, the deceiver. Pharisees.
The unbelievers are running away screaming because they do not want to follow the commandments of the Christ. They find them to harsh, spoiling their fun!
You place the right thing (faith) inside a soul? Faith is a gift from the FATHER. It sounds as a blasfemy to me to judge the faith of millions not being God. I admire your site but sometimes you are too much audacious.
Mark Twain” “It is far easier to fool a man than to convince him he has been fooled.”
Chris Hedges – I read his 2009 book Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle”.
It barely rose above clickbait status. As an author, Hedges worked from a cardboard-cutout understandng of the US, and had cherry-picked his vignettes. Were any of his other books far better ?
Empire of Illusion: The End of Literacy and the Triumph of Spectacle”. is a fantastic and most interesting book, imho
Yip. Can’t fill a cup that’s already full… Avatar
This sounds like a fruitful project.
noted and vote counted, thank you!
The sandbox destination seems a propitious idea :)
sarcasm?
but okay, the humble sandbox it will be. Size does NOT matter in issues of faith!
The Saker
Nope, just the respect for humility :)
Why not?
OO – Poetic (Efrem the Syrian, Yared, Narsai, Gregory of Narek, Jacob of Serugh)
EO – Philosophical, rather imperious
RC – Judicial, quite imperious
Pr – literalist (incoherent)
I was reading Lossky, and it struck me that Chalcedon was marked out as producing an anomalous ‘positive’ statement of faith. I’d like a nuanced explanation of how the miaphysites, including official state churches predating that of the Roman Empire, the Armenian and Ethiopian, and that of the outstanding intellectual centre of the time, Alexandria, and those speaking Aramaic who had all always condemned Eutychianism, yet continue to be imperiously called monophysites, were wrong. usually, the argument seems to be ‘we say so’, smells heavily of pure politics, that directly led to divide and ergo easy rule of islam. Apparently some french guys have made ‘water-tight’ mental gymnastics in favor of EO. Man can rationalize anything, and i think both groups of orthodoxy are to focus on inexpressible, direct, prayerful experience. The OO even criticize hesychasm as an over formulaic systematization of something inexpressible.
I dunno, there’s always the ‘he said she said’ that can take forever to sort out. this seems like a tough question and i’d honestly welcome a convincing argument
Saker,
I’ve been to four Orthodox monasteries in the ME and several in the US.
Typical response to my questions about my questions about origins was met with – why do you want to know? Everything has been resolved.
Count me in.
Interesting! Monasteries are THE reference, THE true core, THE source and root of real Christianity.
You stayed in several Orthodox monasteries, which give you a huge advantage because, unlike the western “Christian” denominations, Orthodoxy is not scholastic, it is mystical and existential. Orthodox wisdom does not come from abstract mental constructs, but from ACTUAL EXPERIENCE. I do believe that a non-Orthodox like you would almost inevitably “catch” some of that mystical experience which no intellectual discourse can try to describe.
T1 – our Lord granted you a rare and precious gift: to live next to those who seek to live like angels!
Most sincerely and with kind regards
The Saker
St Katherine monastery in Sinai was digitizing their library ten years ago, don’t know the progress. I wish that Mar Wanna would do the same.
Sorry about typo. It should read Mar Sabba.
@saker
When I read actual experience above, I said to myself — that’s right. That’s the only true Christian. And only from that standpoint would I comment with the scriptures as my only authority and source (my own personal choice and belief, which would probably stumble others — imagine that; quoting actual scriptures stumbling confessed Christians).
If that is acceptable, then of course I can participate, with my only motivation being to explore what truly Christ’s passion and His redemption means to the objects of his purpose for salvation. In other words what I would call the marriage of all scriptures into one, where seemingly contradictory scriptures are reconciled and not ranked — for I believe that the Word is infallible and if it does seem contradictory, it’s because the recipient hasn’t received a true revelation of it, for Christ being the Word cannot contradict Himself. My analogy would be similar to looking at a hand and viewing it as an eye, which like you, I believe that most so called Christianity is indeed apostate.
If those are views that you might welcome, then count me in. If not, then respond and let me know to zip it.
I will let you, and everybody else, know how we will organized this thingie
right now I am listening to suggestions
this will take a while :-)
(silly comment removed by me, the Saker)
The peddling of Latin propaganda is forbidden by moderation rule #21.
please stop it and respect the rule of this blog or leave it.
Thank you
TheSaker
I’d love to read these vignettes.
Long overdue……writing about your true love, the truth of Christianity. Most people I encounter today can’t get past the resurrection (tis but a myth they say) let alone what Christ said.
Never has the message of the Bible been more important than today.
This will be your greatest accomplishment. There is no greater truth than that of the Lord.
Dear Saker
I would just like to echo what Randy Brady said above.
My opinion? I love this idea.
I am a pagan who embraced Christianity. What does that mean exactly? I grew up in First Nations spirituality, grounded in animism and belief in ancestors, and I am a member of a First Nation. However – I did not live on the reserve year round, and the society beyond the bounds of the reserve presented itself to me as Christian. So I became a pagan who believes in Jesus Christ, and truthfully, I thought that made me a Christian. And I sincerely do believe in Jesus Christ, but I get completely lost in discussions of the Christian Church and Christianity, specifically, whether there is proper Christianity in the Christian Church. (I am a pagan at heart.) As an outsider in that sense, I am very curious to read your vignettes.
@EVERYBODY – I have a request: please do not post comments listing modern theologians as some kind of resource. I have two reasons for this request: first, the chances that you will list a theologian of some relevance to our topic is pretty close to zero (if you feel otherwise, please do post your “fav 20th cent theo” – but don’t complain if the mods (or I!) intercept it.
Also, I have an idea I also want to run by you: we all know how effective trolls (sincere or paid) are at sidetracking and obfuscating literally ANY issue.
I am thinking of restricting the rights to comment under the planned vignettes ONLY to those who have requested it, signed up and I have approved.
This way I can weed out all the trolls (including Latin who go bezerk every time they are told that they are not “The Church” and that their “traditions” mostly come from very recent councils (Vat1 and Vat2) both of which resulted in schisms).
FYI – The moderation rule #21 (full list here: /moderation-policy/) bans not only Latin propaganda, but also all of the following:
1) National-Socialism (Nazism, Fascism)
2) Wahabism (Takfirism)
3) Zionism (rabbinical “Judaism”, aka “Phariseism”)
4) National-Socialism (Nazism, Fascism)
5) Wahabism (Takfirism)
6) Zionism (rabbinical “Judaism”, aka “Phariseism)
7) Wokeness in all its forms and
8) Homopride in all its forms.
Last, but not least, today is the Feastday of the Royal New Martyrs of Russia and those murdered with them. Those saints are the very people which the Sergianists :
1) initially accused of being “enemies of the people”
2) denied that Russian true Christians were martyred for their faith by the Bolsheviks
3) declared that their glorification by the ROCOR was a “political act by schismatics”
4) then, under popular pressure, they did glorify them, but “only as passion-bearer” (which is nonsensical from an Orthodox point of view) and with plenty of “caveats” (such as, we need the rehabilitation of anybody condemned by the Soviet regime before we can decide whether we hold them for true saints or not!”).
Clearly, to have to glorify (“canonize” in western parlance) the Czar Martyr was as pleasant as smashing your thumb with a heavy hammer: they did it, but boy was that hard, painful and, frankly, blasphemous.!
Anyway, if you, like my three children, carry the name of a New Royal Martyr, I extend my congratulations and best wishes to you. Here is an icon of these true Christian martyrs:
https://i.postimg.cc/BQPyxVz6/The-Royal-New-Martyrs-of-Russia.jpg
The Saker
First and foremost for understanding what the ‘original’ Church was, is and will be, is the Confession of Faith (the Nicean Creed/ Σύμβολον τῆς Νικαίας/Symbolum Nicaenum) made when joining the Church through the Mysteries of Christian Initiation: Baptism “in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit”, Chrismation conferring “The seal of the gift of the Holy Spirit”/Σφραγὶς δωρεᾶς Πνεύματος Ἁγίου, Eucharist/εὐχαριστία/Communio, And to understand that the Creed was not the result of intellectual inquiries and deliberations, but revealed by the Christ Himself and transmitted by the Holy Apostles:
”Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth. 13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. 15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. 16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” (2 Peter 1-21).
Alas, in spite of the long scriptural quote, you are completely missing what the notion of “Church” meant to Christ, his Apostles or even the Fathers! I wish I could call that “minimalist” but, frankly, I call that ignorance, because that is what this is.
The Saker
Ignorance of what?
”But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. 18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. 21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day”.
The Orthodox Church interprets the ‘rock’ on which the Church is built, as the Confession of Peter. Actually of all the Apostles to whom the question of Jesus is addressed. Peter in fact speaks in the name of all.
Ignorance of what?
Of even basic Christian ecclesiology.
Also: if you really believe that the Bible is the sole authority and the only true word of God you need to read this, very VERY URGENTLY: http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/whichcamefirst.aspx
For those too lazy to read even a short article: “the Bible” is a COLLECTION of books which were declared “canonical” BY THE CHURCH. No Bible ever existed outside some Church declaring that this or that canon is correct. Furthermore, the vast majority of Bibles translated into English are based on Jewish forgeries called the “Masoretic Text” (MT). The ONLY true Christian Bible is the Septuagint (abbr. LXX) and there still is not a single English translation of the Greek LXX which I could honestly recommend as “authoritative”.
Yup, if you really are Bible-centered you urgently need to learn either Koine Greek or Church Slavonic (ideally both since the Slavonic text is, as any translation, also a de-facto interpretation); in other words, the Church Slavonic version of the Bible can help you expose yourself to the understanding of the Bible at the times when the Church Slavonic translation was made (it actually lasted for CENTURIES, roughly between the early liturgical texts of the 10th-13th century and the first translations into Slavonic). BTW – the “current” version of Church Slavonic is a 18th-20th century version of Church Slavonic. Comparing it with older translations (there were at least two before that) is also very wise activity.
Cheers
I read your link Saker and what comes to mind are Carrier Pigeons and the Pony Express. Why? Because of the difficulty that must have existed to communicate over those long distances. As for whether the scriptures or the church came first well my thoughts on the matter is that without the scriptures which indeed were handed down first as an oral tradition there would be no Church really? Acts 20:7 Even our Lord used the scriptures to get across the why of His death which his disciples after spending almost four years with Him were still oblivious to the why of it all. Luke 24:44-49 And still it took the coming of the Holy Spirit to endue them with power and wisdom and understanding / knowledge. Of course the coming of the Holy Spirit which gave birth to what would become the Church. And given the feelings of St. Paul in 2 Timothy 4:13 he must have been terribly anxious to get all the inspiration in his head down on paper.
Only Luke is with me. Get Mark and bring him with you, because he is helpful to me in my ministry. 12 I sent Tychicus to Ephesus. 13 When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls, especially the parchments.
Yeah, I guess so after the almost death of Eutyichus the last thing Paul wanted to do was more lectures that lasted half a night. And the constant repetition of preaching mostly the same material over and over again? My word what it must have been like and imagine Paul or even the Church Fathers to see our day and age with our glorious technology and still we can barely get anything right? My word how will we ever see the fulfillment of Ephesians 4:15-16:
“Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”
How can a return to the Church Fathers either in Orthodoxy or Rome ever, ever in another 2 thousand years fulfill this reality of St. Paul’s teaching and he said this way back then imagine? What in the world would he have to say about the state of affairs today? It seems to me only another day of Pentecost is going to fulfill Ephesians. The Church Universal is a disaster which only God now can fix.
Ah the bible, the bible it still perturbs me that we have so much missing information. In fact this scripture alone of a testimony by St. John 21:25 bothers me to no end well at one time anyway:
Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.
Why? Because I want to know everything and it doesn’t exist. Especially concerning the life of Mary. O what she could have shared with the world her memories of the childhood of Christ and her own life and that of Joseph. What ultimately happened to her etc etc?
and lastly Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’[d]? 35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and SCRIPTURE cannot be set aside—
My 2 cents worth.
Do russians not read the bible in plain russian? If I bought a septuagint should it be in russian or church slavonic?
Good question!
Due to the influence of Protestant sects, before the revolution there as a strong push to translate the entire Bible into Russian. The New Testament translation was a success. The Old Testament was pretty bad. So for PRIVATE use, a Russian translation of the New Testament is fine. There are SOME Old Testament books which have been since translated into Russian, some pretty good. But here is the key thing: for the Russian Orthodox Church (and a few others!) ONLY the Church Slavonic text is considered authoritative and can be used for church services.
That could be another vignette “the problems with translations of holy writ” – there are A LOT, I promise you :-)
Cheers
The Septuagint is the Greek translation ( from around 300 BC!?) and said to be the most faithful to the original, and said to be the one Jesus and Paul used.
Can you *please* stop referring to Christ and Saint Paul as “Jesus” and “Paul”?
This is terrible etiquette, at least in an early Christian context
Taken. Bad gramma and language from school and media brainwashing. Irritates myself but difficult to change.
Im better in Portuguese which is not my native language :-P.
I read the link too. Very interesting. The bible and oral church belongs together. It makes good sense.
I analysed the long centuries time laps where the Jews only made oral preaching also is logic, as we never will forget eternal truth when we have heard it once, like the water cycle as an example (only the bible describe the water cycle, not even Pharaoh had it).
Then in my opinion all churches presents some kind of God’s temple. Not all equally good, but a bad one introducing people to the spiritual world maybe a start and maybe better than no church.
So far I dont know Orthodox profound, other than it make idols (saints) like the Catholics and Pharisees are seen there too.
But it is new to me that we have to accept the Church as a living body correcting our interpretations over time.
Conclusion: We cant progress without brothers to exchange our findings with!
@ Tomsen
From Socrates, Phadrus:
“The discovery of the alphabet will create forgetfulness in the learners souls, because they will not use their memories;they will trust to the eternal written characters and not remember themselves…you give your disciples not truth but only the resemblance of truth ; they will be heroes of many things, and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing.”
and lol for Ken Leslie and his essay The People and the Unpeople: At home and abroad:
“Greatest recorded feat of memory done by a Buddhist Monk named Bhandata Vicitsara. He recited 16,000 pages of canonical text in Rangoon May 1974 Buddhist Holy Writings
Let Rhodes Scholars choke on that lol?
and for the Saker:
from Hildegarde of Bingen, Scivias:
“And it came to pass…that the heavens were opened and a blinding light of exceptional brilliance flowed through my entire brain. And so it kindled my whole heart and breast like a flame, not burning but warming …and suddenly I understood the meaning of the expositions of books..the evangelists and other Catholic books of the Old and New Testament.”
Cheers
by the way to Tomsen
That quote of Socrates is actually found in the bible as well. It goes like this:
12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil. Hebrews 5:12
Related to the present world: We understand the 2-dimensional world, on paper, on flat-screen, on television, in MSM, in politicians abstract world, but forgot to connect to our 3-dimensional childhood, the physical universe which is God’s Creation ;-).
I would love to read your vignettes. I am an American convert to Orthodoxy, and have long admired the wisdom found in your blog.
vote counted :-)
Hi Saker,
I really enjoy this site.
Could you please explain ‘It is my claim that 95% or more of so-called “Christian denominations” are Christian only in name and that this is empirically and logically provable! ‘
What do you define are a true Christian?
Thank you,
Vince
This is an acceptable proposal. However, you need to put your idea in the form of propositions. That way they can be proven one way or another. For example:
Resolved: The Scriptures teach that the church of Christ is spiritual in its nature and was established on the first Pentecost after Jesus’ resurrection from the dead.
Someone must affirm, and someone else must deny.
Certainly, other propositions could be included, but separately from one another.
Even before that we need to agree on what a “proof” actually is :-)
There is an excellent entry in the ‘Catholic Encyclopedia’ (New Advent): ”Proof”.
”… Canonists enumerate six kinds of perfect proof: the unshaken deposition of two witnesses, who are above all suspicion; a public document, or other instrument having the force of a public document, as, for instance, a certified copy of a public instrument; conclusive presumption of law; the decisive oath; judicial confession; evidence or notoriety of the fact….”
No one is less qualified to write about spiritual truth than the homophobe who lurks here.
Interesting comment!
May I ask a few questions?
1) whom were you referring to and why this oblique finger-pointing?
2) “phobe” means both fear and hatred; which meaning were you referring to and what is your evidence for such emotions by anybody in this blog?
3) why would homophobia (however defined) preclude anybody from “writing about spiritual truth”. Please give a logical reason for this statement.
Last, but not least: are you aware that your comment is a slogan substantiated by exactly *nothing*? Even if you are 110% correct, you are mistaken if you believe that a pontificating statement alone, even delivered with superb gravitas, cannot convince anybody capable of logical thought?
The Saker
Saker – just ignore such an ignorabimus…he’s talking about himself like all the sociopaths do. He’s probably paid troll
Forwarded to Saker for review. Mod-DA
so because i see homosexuality as a sin and degenerate i “hate or fear” homosexuals?
Wut??
How did you make that conclusion, pulled it out of ur ar#se perhaps?
I fear God`s wrath and only that, i hate no man or woman dead or alive even tho it is very hard at times in this insane time we live in.
As I understand, my forefathers were Protestants in Ukraine, who were deported to Central Asia because of their ethnicity. There they got ‘reformed’ into Evangelicals of the 7DA by ‘American’ missionaries.
One of the major distinguishing points is the belief in the exclusivity of being Christian based on the Holy Book alone. (And “false” witnesses like Ellen White.)
A brief description of what the Orthodox basic canonical beliefs are and the difference to the sect of 7DA would be of interest to me. Particularly, to the backdrop of the more recent phenomenon of a multitude of sects getting a foothold in Russia.
I have received only a very timid response from relatives in that matter. They are appalled by the recent prosecution of 7DA in Russia. I do not belong to this group anymore. I’d like to read your position on this problem too.
Please allow me tp comment here.
The Deep State use a lot of actors to undermine foreign societies for their robberies. The Vatican is one such trojan horse inside foreign countries, but they also use most NGO’s controlled by Deep State and religious sects as spies inside foreign nations, the innocent in the front line and the Deep State at the top.
This pattern has partly changed to involve multinational companies where spies and hidden agendas can more easily can be hidden, as the previous use and spy tradition is generally known today.
So when I see Russia being tough on JW and/or 7DA I think to myself, either the FSB must know more about these groups than we do, or they simply erase them for being financed from US/UK and therefore risky.
Are you from the Volga Germans which Stalin moved to Kazakhastan?
No, from the region around ‘Zhytomyr Oblast’ and Northwest of Kiew. “Dekulakization” for most in the 30s (others died in the “Trudarmija”) with subsequent deportation by the NKVD to Kazakhstan. Religious persecution started there anew with many ‘ecapes’ through all the Central Asian republics.
Please Saker. I’d love that history.
Very interesting idea. Pls allow me a few comments:
– “Christ very much came into the world to create an “organized religion””.
No, Christ came into this world to release those who by heart believed and believe in him, and instructed his apostles and followers to spread the news about his sacrifice.
Then why did he create Bishops, Presbyters and Deacons? Why 12 and then 70 Apostoles
The Saker
– The Papacy is a joke. The very long history of flat earth, inquisition, atrocities, paedophilia, the Vatican’s Audience Hall a formed like a snake inside and outside, weird rituals with young boys and profane idols.
There may be serious believers and priests among Catholics, but the head is too rotten.
– Something which confuses me about the testaments, is the time laps.
Moses is said to have lived around 1450 BC and spoke paleo-Hebrew. There is no original nor copy of Moses scriptures.
The oldest scriptures is said to be from 950-1000 BC, Aleppo Codex from 924 BC in modern Hebrew found only in parts in 1947-58. In the same time period the Dead Sea Rolls were found.
Codex Sinaiticus first published in 1879. Same with New Testament, dated 130-150 AD about 100 years after Christ’s death and first discovered in 1934???
So we have a time lap of 500 years between Moses 1450 BC and the first scriptures said to originate in 950 BC, and these scriptures first found in the 1900’th and 2000’th century???
What strikes me is the dating and found and different languages of these scriptures when we know the intrigues of Rome and Jews and Israel. Falsifications is a close possibility.
Just saying the Bible has a very confusing and 1000+ interpretations story through the millenniums.
However, I reached the conclusion that the text itself is evidence of eternal truth and make logical sense if we see through the symbolic in the bible.
But how anyone can get 1 true original church out of this mess is a mystery I would much like someone competent to answer.
great! now you won the beauty contest, go set up your own blog!
Because the message is more important than the messengers. We must never forget that. Humility, away with our self-importance, “freely ye have received, freely you shall give”.
Rablais once wrote “science without conscience is but the ruin of the soul”.
You list factoids, mixing fact and fiction, and you end up in a spiritual no man’s lands
Don’t you feel the emptiness of it all?
Not really. Opposite. Going through the mess and still keeping the faith made me feel stronger. I dont need that goods anymore. Pls forgive me to challenge you guys to the edge.
I have a sound quote from JW founder that JW today are reluctant to recognize because they are also crazy about organisation like you. Enjoy:
“Beware of organisation. It is wholly unnecessary. The bible rules will be the only rules you will need.
Do not seek to bind others consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God’s word to-day, and to continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day.”
All the best. I can see someone is starting getting touchy :-D.
.
This sounds very interesting, but if you do it, please define all the terms and movements being mentioned for those of us who have no idea what they are. Thanks!
Yes that’s a fantastic idea! I think it’s a great idea that you are going to explain what you believe Christianity to be rather than to go after any particular denomination or sect.
Also think that’s a very wise commenting policy…..as theological discussion often get even more insane and wankerous than political ones.
Thanks for a great blog btw!
Sounds amazing, please do it!
Saker:
I heartily support your idea of discussing Christian religions but especially the Orthodox church. It would be so enlightening and just maybe remove many falsehoods and misunderstandings that have cropped up over the centuries.
I am a Catholic but never understood why the Western church would not come to the aide of our Eastern Brothers and Sisters as they were being attacked and over-un.
Too I never understood why crusaders, from the Western church sacked the Eastern church on their march to retake Jerusalum.
God Bless you Saker in this new venture of enlightenment.
Dear David
Thank you for your comment and open mind. Okay, you are “in” for sure, but please forgive me in advance because I will have to write many things which will shock you. However, I can promise you this: I will never deliberately deceive you! Also, while I will be critical of many aspects of the Latin (Catholic) Church, I will very much differentiate between the Latin Church until Vatican I and the Latin Church after Vatican II since while the V1 only codified and confirmed ideas which the Papacy had developed almost since its creation around the 10th-11th centuries, V2 flipped most of that on its head – and I will take these events into account.
And, finally, I will GLADLY explain the Crusades.
Anyway, welcome aboard and please be patient with me :-)
Cheers
Hi Saker – yes we understand that these vignettes are Saker’s views on Christianity. But that would be great
I would certainly read them and pass them on.
Ann
Peace and blessings,
For Muslims the original church and message of Jesus (peace be upon him) was the same as the message of holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).
Over time the message of previous prophets (AS) got diluted and new prophets (AS) came to once again revive the message.
The holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of the prophets because his message was addressed to all nations and was preserved over time. A group of people would preserve the message in letter and spirit till the last day. In every new generation you would find these scholars and sufi saints.
So in order to understand the true message of Jesus (AS) one has to understand the essence of Islam.
If Christians believe in all the previous prophets (AS) then they should explore the possibility that holy Pophet Muhammad (pbuh) did indeed preserve the message of Jesus (AS).
The essence of the message in simple words is as follows
The Real (Alhaqq) wanted His Divine names to be known. So He created man endowed with this capacity to know Him. Thus to know the Real (alHaqq) is to oprationalize these divine names in ones own essence. And this is possible only by following the correct teachings of the holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Thus man was created to know the Divine. Knowing the Divine is being His vicegerent. Being His vicegerent is to oprationalize the Divine names. The contingent can never approach the Absolute except through this slavehood. Jesus came to teach this to his nation. The holy prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came to teach this to whole mankind.
Any mistakes in understanding and in conveying are purely mine.
Wa Billahi Tawfeeq
Wa aleykum us saalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh!
The key question here is this: is there any historical evidence that Christians between the first and the seventh century held the same beliefs which you outlined in your comment.
The answer is simple: none.
Kind regards
Which means you will prove without a reasonable doubt that the beliefs held by early Christians were the same as held by Jesus (AS) himself.
For muslims who believe in the prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh), the holy quran and ahadith are proof enough as to what the mission of Jesus and other prophets (AS) was. And there is a methodology and science (ilm ar Rijal) which is employed to prove without reasonable doubt that the beliefs of mainstream muslims over the centuries are the same as held by the holy prophet Muhammad pbuh and his companions (RA).
Obviously you must have something similar in terms of methodology to go on to prove that the teachings of Jesus (AS) were the same as practised by early christians – teachings not the same as the essence of Islam.
Will follow the discussion
Wassalam
Dear Saker,
please do it!
The topic and the format you suggested would be, God Willing, an excellent educational teaching and exercise for people of diverse backgrounds and beliefs. Please do.
I approve, and look forward to this discussion. I my opinion there is no more important subject existing in the world. Especially in light of the state of the world.
I would like to study your vignettes.
Excluding trolls and idiots will improve
readability. Make Truth Great Again !!!
Thank you, Saker
Hello Saker,
my vote for it.
I would enjoy it, I had a long lecture by my grandfather a couple years ago about the church and its actions during the revolution, I would be especially interested in that time period!
Well, I probably won’t go into something that specific (remember, I am not “gunning” for the Sergianists!), I will rather outline what the early Christians believed about persecutions and their faith.
Then each one can compare it to what happened in Bolshevik Russia.
Thank you, Saker. As I read your proposal my inner voice was saying, “This is just what I need now.” Please proceed with your ‘vignettes’ as you can. I appreciate your humility about your lack of “authority”.
I don’t know enough to offer a topic to start with. I’ve recently come to seek a deeper understanding of my faith so the timing is perfect.
Jews had rejected Jesus as Christians had Mohammed. If Divine communication is provable then any Revelation preceding Qur’an is obsolete and redundant except for its historical content. Hence, any debate about Who or What is right is moot.
More important is to get behind God’s ‘swing of the bat’: God’s Intention (iro Revelation) and the Purpose of it, i.e. What is the Desired Outcome.
Worshiping God in Fear of Punishment is the religion of a Coward; Worshiping God in Hope of Reward is the religion of a Trader; but worshiping God in Love and Grace is what is required.
There are 2 major themes in Qur’an and as much as 70% of its verses relate to the 1st -‘Adl or Justice: Divine, Social and Personal. God sides with the dispossessed revolting against the elite, hence this ‘duty’ was ‘removed’ by the counter-revolutionary elite as heirs of religion after the passing of the series of Messenger/Prophets.
It was ‘deleted/hidden’ from the OT and Judaism, replaced by the Talmud; it similarly removed from the Gospels by Paul and Constantine; and Islam suffered the same fate by the coup that took place during the passing of the Prophet.
The 2nd major theme is Taqwa, or God-wariness/precaution or even piety, its weakest translation. The objective here is Return to Source!
Muslims believe they are born in a state of Fitrah or proximity to God and culture, society, family and parents ‘drag’ them away from this state to wherever they find themselves on the social and personal axis.Hence, the secondary and more difficult endeavor (lit. Jihad) is for the return of man to Source: personal and spiritual perfection…
Most religions are playing on this field only, as amateurs!
was written
Jews had rejected Jesus as Christians had Mohammed
Jew rejected Christ in about 33AD
The Prophet Mohammed was both near about 570AD
I for one would vote against. I love the military and geopolitical analyses – I actually consider them a necessity for long-term survival. I am a secular-ethics guy with very strong inner conviction and thus not interested in theology. So I would be happier if religious pursuits wouldn’t take much of your precious time.
Still, there is one single “theological” question I would like to have answered since my childhood. And since you seem to be well versed in distinguishing sub-currents within Orthodoxy, you might be the one who has the answer. I was baptized in a mainstream Orthodox church as a young boy and I remember my baptism but what I remember even more clearly is what happened immediately before the baptism. The old priest took me and my brother into a shed next to the church and after he closed the door we were crammed in the dark little room, so it was a bit spooky and made a lasting impression. Of course nothing “latin” happened there. The old guy told us to listen well and to remember the main tenet of our faith for the rest of our lives. And then he said: “God became man so that man should become God.”
Later on, the more I learned about Christianity, the more I realized that sentence was a rather strange way to summarize the Christian belief. When I started to wonder about this, the old man was already dead, so I couldn’t ask him, and I didn’t want to embarrass him (or his memory) in front of the rest of the clergy in case this shed-philosophy was something heretical. So a question to you: is this sentence something you recognize? Is it a regular feature of Orthodox baptism or faith? Is the correct interpretation that human should aspire to godhood, or godlike perfection?
@Viktor
I would say that is indeed the summary of Christianity. Reading Apostle Paul, who had the actual Christian experience and was converted as testified in the Book of acts, we find him in the book of Corinthians expounding about the first Adam (the first earthly man) and the fall, that necessitated the coming of the second Adam (Jesus Christ — the spiritual man) for redemption (return back to the original estate). Which our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as he began His first sermon as written in the book of John expounded as the actual experience of the new birth, which is indeed what starts the Christian experience and life. John 3:3 – Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. John:3:5 – Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John:3:6 – That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
And we see our Lord Jesus Christ exhort the believers whom he had taught all those years to go to the upper room and await their conversion by the new birth through the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Then and only then did the birth of the church of our Lord Jesus Christ commence right there at Pentecost — which means 50 by the old testament which signified Jubilee ( freedom from bondage after 49 years of bondage with the 50th being the Jubilee). Christ arose and for 40 days showed himself risen to the believers and ascended on high, whereas the disciples and the believers, totalling around 120, waited for 10 days after His ascension in the upper room for the promise of the redemptive power by the Holy Ghost at Jubilee, which they received as written in the book of Acts 2.
So, as you can see, Paul who underwent the same conversion as the original baptism of the Holy Ghost at Pentecost, as it’s written in the book of Acts chapter 9, testifies in 1 Corinthians chapter 15 of that which you ask, among many other scriptures by the disciples in the new testament including the Book of Acts of the Holy Spirit in the Apostles.
Let me stop here and if you are still interested in this discourse we can proceed.
Peace be upon you.
@Viktor
I should have added that the “godhood” or “godlike” is not as understood to mean in the conventional sense — you cannot be godlike as in attaining that by human effort. No. But by being a tabernacle of the living God, you can attain to it through that union with God by your conversion and ultimate resurrection with a glorified flesh body like unto Christ’s after His resurrection. I thought that important enough to clarify to your initial question.
“God became man so that man should become God.”
I find this sentence to be terribly confusing and dangerous. Nowhere in the New Testament will one find any reference to one becoming god. What it does say and indeed promise us is this:
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. Rev. 3:21
We are destined for the throne but to become god as stated in that sentence is strange language.
Beyond this the only thing that is important is to become perfect as God is Himself in holiness and righteousness. That is the goal of God for us.
I would think that given Satan’s role as god over this world any thinking to become god causes one to tread a dangerous road. I’ve lived now as a Christian for 40 years and never in all of those years did I pursue becoming God? I’m surprised to be hearing this?
@Gerry
If the Lord Jesus Christ being the Son of God became a man, and scriptures cannot be broken since John 1 testifies that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, how then would you reconcile how you believe, with 1 John 3:1 – Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John:3:2 – Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
What would “we shall be like Him” mean? What of “Sons of God”? And what about scriptures such as Hebrews 2:11 mean? Hebrews 2: 11 – For both he that sanctifieth Lord Jesus Christ) and they who are sanctified (the redeemed Sons of God) are all of one: for which cause he (Jesus Christ) is not ashamed to call them (the redeemed) brethren. Will they (the redeemed Sons of God), not be of the same essence and lifeform as the Son of God : the Lord Jesus Christ? This is indeed interwoven in the teachings of Christ and the early Fathers of the faith and is indeed the very essence of redemption, as I understand it.
Peace be unto you
Nowhere in the New Testament will one find any reference to one becoming god???
”Jesus answered [the Jews], Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, Ye are gods?’* 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? (John 10:34-36).
”Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever. (John 6:53-58).
[To live forever means to be immortal, gods are immortal]
”Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect” (Matthew 5:48).
*Psalm 81:6-8): “I have said, Ye are gods; and all [of you] children of the Most High. 7 But ye die as men, and fall as one of the princes. 8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.”
There is nothing more ridiculous than saying “I don’t need to really take God seriously to live an ethical good life”. Living as if you believe in something when you really don’t is Nietzschean slave morality, and Nietzsche coming from a throughly stale and spiritually dead Protestant background was right to have contempt for such morality. He was wrong about God and his worldview is poison, but he was correct that universal ethics divorced from from a solid metaphysical anchor are contemptible. If there is no God than absolutely everything is permissible as Ivan Karazamov observed. There is no real reason to object to even the most heinous crimes, who are we to say the suffering of a murder victim outweighs the pleasure of a murderer in a Godless cosmos? If all of our values are really just metal constructs that don’t correspond to real ontological categories than someone’s objections to greed, rape and murder hold no more value or meaning than the wants and desires of the criminals.
The world is in the mess it is today because we are living Nietzsches transvaluation of all values and it’s a living hell. If there is no God than the only consistent positions is to milk the world for every last hit of dopamine you can before you die and to hell with whoever gets in your way, or simply destroy the world entirely to end the suffering of the mass of humanity’s pointless lives. The middle ground of “I’m not hurting anyone and I can be a good man even though I don’t really believe in anything” is totally worthy of contempt. In my personal opinion this is why the most radical of anarchist and Bolsheviks hated lukewarm liberals more than they hated any monarchist.
Given all that I welcome Saker talking about the Orthodox faith more often. Knowing Gods intent behind creating man and the consequences of our fall puts the modern world in a much more understandable light. Neglecting the spiritual component of our nature is missing a huge and honestly the primary reason for why the world is in the state it’s in today.
Dear sej, thanks for your thoughts. I think you hit the nail on the head regarding the difficulties of secular morality.
“If there is no God than the only consistent positions is to milk the world for every last hit of dopamine you can before you die and to hell with whoever gets in your way, or simply destroy the world entirely to end the suffering of the mass of humanity’s pointless lives.”
I agree and I mean this without sarcasm – it is clear that there is only teeth gnashing and groveling for one who chooses to sincerely observe their finitude without belief. I do not deny that, nor the abyss of desperation and pure evil that lurks beyond the vain flickering flame of one’s own ephemeral and treacherous will.
Still, some of us choose to crawl along the path of moral philosophy without any belief, and this choice in itself is a form of (quite severe) asceticism. Maybe you haven’t thought of it this way yet.
I for one would vote against
Vote counted!
“God became man so that man should become God.”
This is a quote from St. Athanasios, a major saint and Church Father and it is the correct summary of the Dogma of Incarnation. This is already rather advanced theology which really would not fit a vignette. I am afraid that all I could do is point you maybe to a book or two if that is of interest to you.
Sorry, but some things really cannot be squeezed into a vignette :-(
Cheers
“God became man so that man should become God.”
“This is a quote from St. Athanasios, a major saint and Church Father and it is the correct summary of the Dogma of Incarnation. This is already rather advanced theology which really would not fit a vignette. I am afraid that all I could do is point you maybe to a book or two if that is of interest to you.
Sorry, but some things really cannot be squeezed into a vignette ”
Saker; Your writing the above makes me very keen to read all that you choose to write on this subject.
Much respect and thanks for all of your great ground breaking work
Dear Saker, thank you for the answer. It is a pleasure to learn something that not even google could retrieve. I looked up Father Athanasios (fitting name btw.) and indeed you were right.
“For He was made man that we might be made God.”
– On the Incarnation of the Word by St. Athanasios (54/3)
@Is the correct interpretation that human should aspire to godhood, or godlike perfection?
It is a commandment!
‘Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect’, the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mountain!
Dear Saker,
I love this idea. I would be most interested to read your vignettes.
Thank you
Please add my “yes”to the vote. And may I suggest that a topic for one of the vignettes might be something like: what is the true relationship, if any, between the Church and the natural, ecological world? Best wishes.
“That original Church of Christ still exists today, but it is small, almost tiny.”
So where is it already?
Are you looking for the church that was established by Jesus Christ on the first Pentecost after His resurrection from the dead? Or, a local congregation of Christians?
It is found in those Orthodox Churches which have not truly kept the faith unchanged and which were not infected by secularist/Masonic ideas. Now, for some rather complex (but crucial!) reasons, I cannot give you a list of Orthodox Churches which have become terminally infected or completely lapsed. The main reason is that to make such a diagnostic, a decision of a competent council is needed (long story). But what I *can* do is point you to those I am sure have NOT been so infected: the Romanian, Greek, Russian and Bulgarian traditionalist Orthodox Churches which are all in communion with each other. Here are, FYI, some of their websites:
https://manastireasfantulglicherie.ro/ (Romanian)
https://www.ecclesiagoc.gr/ (Greek)
https://bulgarian-orthodox-church.org/index.html (Bulgarian)
http://sinod.ruschurchabroad.org/index.htm (Russian)
http://www.hotca.org/ (English, USA)
Again, this is NOT an exhaustive list and to go beyond that would require some very profound and detailed discussion. In fact, the issues of where there is Grace and where there is none is once which can quickly degenerate into a kind of fanatical “gracometry” which the Fathers would have rejected in disgust. Of course, I have my strictly personal guesses about which religious groups have totally withered away and which ones have not, but these are the private opinions of a layman which I prefer to keep to myself.
I hope that the above is helpful.
Cheers
Hi Saker
Are you familiar with these resent series of talks by Fr Peter Heers on the subject.
Orthodox Ecclesiology: The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church and the Pan-Heresy of Ecumenism
…
The Russian New Martyrs and The Catacomb Church: A Type of the End Times
…
https://orthodoxethos.com/post/links-to-all-orthodox-ethos-lecture-series
Nope, as I said, I try to stay away from modern theologians, but in this case these books sound very interesting.
I will check them out, thank you!
I upvote your idea. Good for the site and good for you.
Do it. I’d love to learn more about Justin Popovich too. What a man he was.
Saker, that sounds like abloodt good idea. First principles are always an important place to start any sensible discussion.
Re your question, do write some vignettes, they will be interesting, and valuable.
Remember only, to treat those with other knowledge and experiences than yours with respect. Varied perspectives, make up a true picture of the whole, always. This fact is marvellously demonstrated by many, if not all of your visitors and commentators. What good fortune, what opportunity to grow, and to learn.
Saker, I have quietly read here for several years now and very much appreciate and rely on your analyses from within your professional competancy.
This new range of topics that you suggest interests me too. I believe it is at least as immediately important as any discussion on political and military affairs.
But with respect and assuming your hope, most of all, is to approach those who hold different views, I don’t get the impression that you have the humility to succeed in such a task. (I am not directly suggesting that you should not try) Instead I would support the idea from the PS of asking people that you trust from within the Patristic tradition to author these ‘vignettes’ .
I don’t get the impression that you have the humility to succeed in such a task
Good point! Vote counted, thank you!
Dear Saker, hello!
“In battle do nothing superfluous” (The Book Of Five Rings) Of course, neither myself nor you, nor any of your many good friends, are “samurais” but this line always striked me as vital, and wise. (I like variation too).
You dear Saker have been waging a long war -not just one battle- against the AngloZionist Empire (AZE) all on your own -certainly with your fine team-, and we are all witnesses and supporters of that. And we have all gained a lot from your analyses. In addition I was personally always inspired by the fact that those hard-nosed realistic analyses come from an Orthodox thinker who makes no secret -and is actually proud- of his faith.
To the extent that the resistance against the AZE remains your primary “focal point”, you may discover that the “vignettes” (as a permanent side project), albeit fulfilling in the beginning, might later start sucking energy from it. (Hence the initial reference to the above “The Book Of Five Rings” advise.) To put it succinctly would you consider an idea “Vignettes On Covid”? Nope; for the reasons you have given us. You did not “gag” your self, but you refused to focus -or be forced to focus- on that.
But you can always try, and see. Hey, we are fighting for FREEDOM from the AZE, aiming to a better world. Could we possibly deny FREEDOM OF CHOICE to our best “fighters”? You will follow your heart, I am certain.
Cheers,
Eric
PS Please forgive my longish input, I am Alexandria-born Greek… (Nobody is perfect… :-)
okay, I hear you, thank you!
The Church does not fight from ‘freedom from the AZE aiming for a better ‘world’, but for the ‘Kingdom of God’ which is NOT of this world, for freedom FROM the world: ” My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence”.
I vote “yes”.
Looking forward to it.
Dear Saker
I recognize your offer as a great gift for this humanity lost in a kind of labyrinth. This is a huge task and a great blessing for the guests of this generous vineyard. Thank you!!
I will be much grateful to receive this wisdom. I pray for you and your family, may Our Lord always provide all you need.
love,
Vercia V.
I am eager to read these vignettes. Please proceed with haste on this project.
Interesting indeed.
Go for it. What can it hurt?
People hear, or they don’t. That reality didn’t silence any of the messengers in original Christianity.
Dear Saker, dear readers of this blog,
I would very much like to read these vignettes.
Growing up as a protestant-orthodox (I know it is not orthodoxy as originally construed but it clarifies my interest) in northwestern Europe it always intrigued me why we were not taught in the writings and learnings of our eastern brothers and sisters. In fact, until I studied History I did not know the real differences between de western ‘church’ and the eastern church. Gradually I developed the insight that pretty much every theological dogma starting from Augustine are more based on political convenience than religious reasons.
Still, it is difficult to find proper books outlining the cases and subjects you speak of Saker, so please share your thoughts and ideas.
Greetings,
pretty much every theological dogma starting from Augustine are more based on political convenience than religious reasons.
Oh how much I disagree with this!!!
But, we can discuss that in a future vignette I suppose :-)
Kind regards
Having read some of the commentary I must say this has great potential if handled carefully. I think that Saker needs to try to help others. No-one I know is going to buy Orthodox religion even though some really cool Greek priests have featured on TV albeit many years ago. My own feeling is vignettes will have to be kind, most of all. Many people have been led astray and have misunderstandings.
Kind to others, yes, of course, but not kind with lies, heresies, falsehoods – those must be denounced in the most direct and unambiguous way possible. I can also explain that in a vignette ;-)
OK, that could be interesting. How much latitude will be allowed for dissent? Will this be another exercise in damming heretics, as with covid? Another case of ‘true Christianity/Socialism has never been tried. All previous efforts had the wrong idea. This time it will surely work, saints/comrades.’ Any toleration for ideas not at all orthodox/Orthodox?
Good question!
I have no problems with heterodox ideas, heck – I studied comparative theology and loved it – but those ideas need to be based on knowledge, not ignorance. Also, in a discussion of early (original) Christianity, modern authors should be kept to an absolute minimum (I will explain that in a future vignette)
Does that make sense?
The Saker
Thank you. Let’s see how it goes.
The issue I might have to the series is that by the time Patristic Christianity came around it was already corrupted. There is not much data to evaluate the first hundred years or so. Some of these letters are strange, like the epistle to Barnabus. The antisex bias, even for married people, started rather early as well.
the time Patristic Christianity came around it was already corrupted
With that kind of certitudes (or working hypotheses, assumptions) you probably won’t find anything of value in my proposed vignettes.
I count that as a “nay” vote.
Cheers
https://www.copticchurch.net/patrology/schoolofalex2/chapter19.html
Speaking of clement
“ He urges that the true Christian has intercourse with his wife only to have offspring, and he cautions married people against having relations once the wife has conceived. Using Seneca’s argument from the conduct of animals, he says, “Some women serve lust without any restraint.” indeed I would not compare them to dumb beasts; for beasts, when they conceive, know not to indulge their mates further with their plenty. Intercourse must be suspended until the woman can conceive again.””
Do you agree with clement?
Jerome would refuse communion to married couples if they had had sex in the last week.
This was a common view of the time.
Personally, I would really welcome this. I am Christian, read my Bible daily, pray a lot, and try to live “righteously”, but still feel there is something missing spiritually.
The modern church is a turn off, and I have started exploring the idea of Orthodoxy, because (as I understand it) the Orthodox Church actually retains the original ways the church fathers.
Long story, short: if your writing and links opens my eyes to spiritual integrity then I’m in.
“And no longer asking oneself what is good.” – Marcus Aurelius
Of course we would be interested in your thoughts. Just don’t expect to sway anybody – religion is such a personal thing – and you might need to start wearing chain mail under your shirt. It is a contentious thing too! Still, since you have the urge to do so, press on. Thoughtful souls will consider it your witness to the faith.
Those ”vignette” about original christianity are much welcome. Not the competence to do the search by myself.
Dear Saker! Thumbs-up from me, since I will be most interested to read your vignettes. Keep up the good work (and this will make it even “gooder”!). Gregory Boyer, PhD
Saker,
I would love to read what thoughts you can share… The following quote from your post deeply interests me, even as a non-Christian Chinese – who deeply reveres and acknowledges the essence of religion…
I had a couple of friends in college who once told me something similar … but the conclusion we drew was that we could know what is true Christianity.
One friend thought If we were to hypothetically take a Christian – say just an average American who goes to a church (any Church) say from 1930’s – to today’s society (say turn of the century) – he would probably think the fundamental truth about God has been lost simply by the church’s immersion in and acceptance of modern politics, culture.
Thoughts about role of church, role of God in people’s lives, role of family, role of government, purpose of life, the human condition … and then mundane things like divorce, sexuality, contraception, abortion, etc., etc. – all have changed. Would a Christian from 50-80 years back think today’s Christian to be even Christians?
From the Revelation:
From perspectives of Christians of the past, they probably would see today’s Christians as not really Christians, but people who only dress as Christians.
I remember this passage from that conversation…
Problem is today few really see ourselves and our society as wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked.… We are all so proud and wealthy and arrogant, blind to the fact of our true existence.… How the church has strayed from its roots!!!
Yet, another friend showed how all this can be flipped around. This friend is as genuine as us in terms of wanting to seek the truth, but she felt Christians of the past are also bigoted and blinded by their times and circumstances as ours.
One example she gave was of the disciplines being all men. Now to Jesus, that was probably just the product of the times. He probably didn’t mean anything by it? But if you must look to the past to seek the truth, one might interpret that Jesus actually didn’t believe females should be part of the Church, she says.
How much is the practices of a religion cultural, how much is the essence? Is this something that you truly think you can decipher from going to history? If it’s from the heart, then what’s the point of going back to history?
Coming back to your topic. Can we really figure out what is the core of Christianity? By going back to history? By appealing to the heart? Meditations? Has society truly moved beyond “Christianity”? Or are there just different versions of Christianity to suit the times? Is Christianity something to be worn? Or is there an essence that buckles time?
Allen
Can we really figure out what is the core of Christianity?
Absolutely! If not, we would have no free will or any agency.
Would that not be a vignette topic?
Cheers
Here I am with the Papacy and its schismatic clones.
Cognitive dissonance is the tension, the distance between two contradictory value systems. The greater the tension, the greater the distance between the values, the greater the manipulative potential. Are you able to realize the absolutely tremendous power of “hope in Christ’s love” versus the “power ideal of the West”? The Papacy manages to divert all the power of the former to the service of the latter. What I am talking about here is not a vague concept, but a maxim of action. To divert the force of life to kill, when this threshold was crossed, it is not possible any more to turn back. The Papacy kills for the ideal of power of the West in the name of the Love of the Father. An enraged charge eventually runs out, it consumes itself. The potential of rage that feeds on rage is limited. But when the ideal of power hijacks the teaching of Christ to kill then … it is life itself in its principle that is challenged, because the power of the Christ teaching is limitless. Do you understand the kind of warfare waged by the Papacy to establish and maintain the colonial structure that is ravaging our planet?
To become a real Christian again, your help is more than welcome. Not able to search the roots of the real Christianity by my self.
I absolutely appreciate your efforts in engaging consideration of such quite heavenly contemplation dear saker.
One thing I really appreciate and value about your passion for truth is the courage you show by proclaiming not only your beliefs, but also the foundations from which they flow. I feel inspired to share with you a link to a website that perhaps would offer you a latin perspective that is more near accurate to the one Truth than typical.
chastitysf.com
Peace.
“The Religion Of The Apostles”, written by Father Stephen De Young (orthodox priest) has given me great insight into this very subject. Can’t say enough about its attempt to define and help to understand what Christianity is!!!
Beware of modern theologians!!!
(that is something which I will repeat like a mantra I think!)
Some are very good, true.
But why go to a photocopy when you can read the original?!
cheers
My own experience with Christianity was growing up within a High Episcopal Church. I took the Priest – who went on to become a bishop – as my spiritual guide, and diligently undertook to understand and believe our articles of faith. I listened to his sermons closely and discovered a common theme: struggle against doubt. We were enjoined never to attend the services of any other denomination, but to only gather in Episcopal ceremonies weekly to reaffirm all of our articles of faith together.
When I discovered that he was more interested in my genitals than in my spiritual growth my efforts to believe started to unravel.
What I eventually came to see was that not only the Priest, but everyone in that church, were struggling to believe things which in their hearts they found to be unbelievable. I reached the conclusion that if you have to struggle to believe something, you don’t really believe it.
I have had many experiences since then of calling on churches and their pastors to speak out on issues of social and economic justice, where it was clear to me that what I was asking was aligned with the message of Jesus, and I have sadly learned to expect nothing from them. Without exception they fear to bite the hand that feeds them.
Sadly I have had to conclude that Christianity as a whole is nothing but organized hypocrisy.
I hold you in great respect, and generally read what you write. I am intrigued by the evidence that even before the Revolution, Russian civilization was different, and I welcome any help in understanding why. But for me to genuinely engage, you will have to show me that your version of Christianity does not require memorizing and struggling to believe some set of articles of faith.
Sadly I have had to conclude that Christianity as a whole is nothing but organized hypocrisy.
And I will NEVER blame you for this! I blame the Papacy for what it did to the once truly Christian West. But I always say that if I had not discovered ancient Christianity, I would have become either a Buddhist (at best) or even a militant atheist (at worst).
Let me repeat: the current rejection of Christianity by the vast majority of people in the West is a very sad, even a tragic reality, but it is NORMAL, HEALTHY and INEVITABLE.
May I ask you to please just give me a chance to explain/show/prove to you the following thesis:
“Original Christianity had nothing in common with the kind of “Christianity” which developed in the West following the 9th, 10th and 11th centuries”.
Again, all I ask for is your CRITICAL ear. And if you get bored/disgusted after a few vignettes, then ditch them and never come back again. Would that be acceptable to you?
“Again, all I ask for is your CRITICAL ear.”
And you shall have it.
Hi Saker,
I would read the series, a great idea to do it. You said it won’t be Latin bashing, maybe include some “comparative” religion along the way for context (ex. did Eastern religions have any influence on the Orthodox?)
Good idea. Count me in
I won’t be gunning after anybody, Latins included, but I will have to compare and contrast, otherwise there is no point, really. Latins have been modernists and innovators for ONE THOUSAND YEARS and they destroyed Christianity in the West. How can any Orthodox Christian *not* mention them and their historical role?
YES, please do this.
I think this is a great idea and look forward to reading your vignettes .
Do it. Do it simply with minimal explication; sort of like the truth, eh? I am not interested in discussion. Can you tell I hate academics? I rarely read comments and even more rarely do I comment myself. Admittedly, comments on the Saker are above average, just saying. I have lately started styling myself, to myself, as orthodox but I am near no churches I trust. I am reading the Fathers with much benefit and I am always in need of direction.
Can you tell I hate academics?
GOOD!! There was not a single academic amongst the 12 (or 70 as far as I know) Apostles and the way to the truth of God is NEVER speculative or scholastic.
That would make another vignette, no?
Go for it. There are a lot of young men in America who are seeking but not finding.
Oh send me a $1,000 dollar seed money and the man upstairs will reward you many times over” seems to be the sermon for the week as it replace Christianity or so the con men on T.V. would have it.
Yes a true definition of Christianity would be most interesting, and which church you think comes the closest to it, not to spark a debate on religion but just some thoughts as to true religion and what it means.
Oh send me a $1,000 dollar seed money and the man upstairs will reward you many times over” seems to be the sermon for the week as it replace Christianity or so the con men on T.V. would have it.
Alas, this is a fair description of most western “Christian” sects :-(
Dear Moderator,
Have I been banned? If so, what rule did I consistently break?
whining about moderation here comes to mind!
;-P
have you even read the rules?
Men never read instructions, ask for directions when traveling, or read the rules for anything. So, the truthful answer is, “No. I haven’t read the rules. However, if you want to send me an audio file highlighting the important ones, I’d be willing to listen…for a little while.”
Whine? Me? Never! Oh, by the way, got any cheese?
Great Idea! Having grown up where I did I know very little about the Orthodox beliefs, always good to improve our understanding and knowledge
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship between Jesus and a born again Christian. All other religions – at least the main ones – are about trying to reach up to God, whereas Christianity is God coming down to man, as Jesus did.
Jesus would not have come to this earth to be crucified and raised up again if it had not been necessary, i.e. more than one or many ways to God.
Therefore everybody needs to be (spiritually) born again by asking and accepting Jesus as their Saviour (and Lord). This is a direct appeal to Jesus to save them – which can be done without any intermediatories (although obviously Christians can pray for someone/lead them to be saved).
The true Church of Christ, is spiritual and is made up of all born again Christians; it is not a building i.e. church, that is just a meeting place for Christians, who can meet up anywhere, including out in the open. The Church of Christ – or the Bride of Christ – changes dynamically, and is not static. Christ the Head; born again, as in spiritually, Christians – the Body.
Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship between Jesus and a born again Christian.
Okay, thank you, I will count that as another “no” vote.
Kind regards!
Well go for it. The world is falling apart as modernity and all its godless unholy errors consume it. So more discussion of a return to basic Christianity can only be a benefit, even if it doesn’t solve the questions of which larger grander institution is the right one (and there can only be one). But a return to Christianity is a conversation that needs to be had. However clumsily or vaguely it may begin, the journey needs to be undertaken.
As for this – ” The Latins trasferred that which was always considered an attribute of the entire Conciliar Church into one man.”
Without getting to technicalities, it was Christ Who did this and set Peter as the rock. Heaven is hierarchial, and therefore one guy being in charge is in accordance with that. And it is not really the man who is infallible, it is the office, which the Latins believe is granted, led and protected by the Holy Spirit, Who much like He can make the Scriptures inerrant by inspiration of the writers, or the institution of THE Church at large infallible, He also naturally and logically leads the institution through an office that must also be the foundational rock of that source of infallibility. The infallibility is not the man, it is the Holy Spirit that acts through the office in which a man is placed in cooperation with God. And this remains the case even if an illicit man comes to validly hold the position. Just as a priest becomes “another Christ” or rather, Christ acts through Him to transform by miracle and mystery, bread and wine, into His divine and human flesh and blood, so too does the Holy Spirit speak infallibly through the authority of one man, which, like the priests who affect the Sacraments, is limited and procedural.
If you believe that God is actively involved with and leads His Church, then God has a means to infallibly act through it when necessary, even when a great majority of those who comprise membership in the Church may fall away as in great heresies of the past, such as that of Arius. Otherwise you’d have to conclude that God is distant and that Christ’s promises are false or misleading.
This is why the Latins profess what they do because the West has a greater propensity towards logical consistency and absolute faith in what Christ and God the Father and the Holy Spirit said and do.
Okay Johnno, you insist on primitive (and wholly non-Patristic) Latin propaganda.
I expected so much and I will have zero patience with this.
I ask you from now on to stop or be banned (rule 21 if you are interested)
Last warning
Cheers
The Saker
I didn’t know about that rule so it was not my intention to break any of them.
Having looked over them now, would you please elaborate on the following:
“Discussion and criticism of these ideologies remain allowed, but direct attempts of advocacy/propaganda is from now on banned.”
Where is the line drawn between reasonably clarifying or responding to certain things brought up in an article/discussion about “Latin Christianity (Papism, including the propaganda of the so-called “Marian apparitions” including the Fatima hoax)” that you or another commenter has made or brought up relevant to the topic, and what is seen as advocacy/propaganda?
If this cannot be made and is entirely subjectively determined by you, then am I simply better off assuming that anything I might respond with concerning any of the above is simply off-limits regardless of their content, context or character?
Hey, your site, your rules, that’s life. But I’d appreciate your further clarity, for the record…
Great Idea, please do it.
White “Christian” Terrorism – Three Hundred Fifty-Seven Million Reasons You Should Work for Peace by Jonny Wycliffe
https://www.academia.edu/40412877/White_Christian_Terrorism_Three_Hundred_Fifty_Seven_Million_Reasons_You_Should_Work_for_Peace
Only got to around page 50 or so (if I remember right). Claims fake Christianity and the terror it has spawned has its origin in the wall of obfuscation created by the entrenched calcified bureaucracy that began at the Council of Nicaea in AD 325, intentionally engineered by the Roman Emperor Caesar Flavius Constantine. If he makes a direct connection it is at least about 10% or so into a long book or I missed it.
Some posts here make assumptions I would not make, that is, relying on accepted chronology to be correct such as Akram’s post (probably only one of many examples).
“Jews had rejected Jesus as Christians had Mohammed. If Divine communication is provable then any Revelation preceding Qur’an is obsolete and redundant except for its historical content.” Implies that Mohammed was the last prophet. Perhaps, however consider this:
New Chronology by Fomenko and Nosovskiy http://chronologia.org/en/
New Chronology By Fomenko video by https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN3S8ncDehY
Argues that much of supposedly older history is a duplication of more recent events, that most history is not correct until the last several hundred years, as recently as 1600 in the case of Britain and around 1850 for Russia and the U.S.
I have barely scratched the surface, but my hunch is that his tear-down of accepted chronology is much better than his obviously and suspiciously quite Russocentric reconstruction.
Gunnar Heinsohn – Toronto conference 2016 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c876lPZ-UZU
Argues that events of Antiquity, Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages happened concurrently between 700 -930 AD
(Saker chants his mantra again!):
Stay away from modern “theologians”!
Stay away from modern “theologians”!
Stay away from modern “theologians”!
:-)
As I understand it, Jonny Wycliffe probably agrees. He is saying (as I understand it) the wrong turn happened about 325 AD with Christianity being replaced by a weaponized fake version.
Although *perhaps* you go a bit further than he does on some issues (whatever they may be).
The rest below was about history.
The place for Fomenko and Heinsohn is the lunatic asylum. It is a sign of the times that they can talk from the ‘high place’ and so many would listen and follow them. But we have been warned that ”the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires”.