A number of bloggers and media outlets have suggested that maybe the Ukies had tried to down President Putin’s Il-96-300PU which externally looks like a Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777. I am frankly dubious. Yes, the junta in Kiev is evil and crazy, but not suicidal and such an attack is an act of war which would trigger an absolutely devastating retaliation from Russia. Besides, even though their liveries look similar, the Il-96-300PU is a four engine aircraft whereas the Boeing 777 has two engines. See for yourself:
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| President Putin’s Il-96-300PU |
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| Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777-200ER |
Liveries don’t make much of a difference on radar anyway, but engines are a very strong radar signal reflector.
A far more likely hypothesis would be that the Ukies wanted to shoot down just any Russian civilian airliner not necessarily Putin’s. Shooting down a Russian airliner would be consistent with the pattern of systematic provocation which the junta has been engaged in since months already and which included the kidnapping and beating up of Russian journalists, the assault of the Russian embassy in Kiev, the regular artillery strikes across the border and even one instance of a Ukie Air Force Su-25 straying into Russian air space. It so happens that Russia does operate a number of Boeing 777-300ER every similar to the Malaysian one.
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| Aeroflot Boeing 777-300ER |
I am personally inclined to think that this was no error and that the Ukies knew exactly what aircraft they were shooting down. But if we assume a case of mistaken identity, then I say that their real target was not Putin’s presidential l-96-300PU which, according to the FSO has not overflown the Ukraine in a very long time anyway, but a Russian civilian airliner like the Aeroflot Boeing shown above.
There is also the very real possibility that MH17 was not shot by a BukM1 at all, but by a Ukrainian SU-27, at least this is what the pattern of damage on the debris seems to be showing. Of course, we will have to wait to see if this information is correct. The Russian military has declared that Russian signal intelligence had detected the radar associated with a BukM1 operating in the “track” mode right at the time when the Malaysian Boeing was hit. Is that compatible with the notion of a Ukie interceptor shooting down MH17? Yes, absolutely, in fact, it would have to be part of the plan. Think of it – the Resistance has no fighters or interceptors, only one single Su-25 close air support aircraft. But it does seem to have at least some BukM1s (though whether they are operational or not is unknown). If the Ukies did use a Su-27 to shoot down MH17 it would make sense for them to switch on the engagement radar of the BukM1 just to be able to point the finger to a BukM1 battery as the source of the attack.
Right now I have the feeling that the Russians are hoping for the international community and the various investigating teams to come to the correct conclusions without any Russian input. I am not at all sure that this is the right approach, but then I have been frustrated to tears with the Kremlin’s communication policy for a long time already. Just listen to Putin’s latest statement about MH17:
I don’t know about you, but to me Putin looks nervous and even sick. Does he not act as if he was guilty or afraid of being caught? I know, I know, there is zero chance of Russia being guilty of this crime, but to many, especially in the West, appearances matter more than facts and this latest appearance is, in my opinion, a total disaster.
I always “marvel” at how incompetent Russians are in public communications and how they systematically fail to appreciate how important appearances can be. In contrast, the USA, which Chris Hedges correctly calls the Empire of Illusion, has a superb appreciation for the importance of the superficial and uses it against its enemies with devastating effectiveness.
In conclusion of these musings, I will like to repeat here: the tragedy of MH17 is being used by the Kiev junta not only to conceal its recent defeats, but to also conceal the murderous attacks against civilians all across the frontlines. Right now, as the world discusses the fate of MH17 the Ukies have open fire with barrages of heavy artillery on Luganks and Donetsk and in every town and village and they are murdering scores of civilians in an apparent retaliation for their recent setbacks. This is the big story, not MH17. This is why I want to suggest to you all that we wait until some hard facts come out about what really happened, and that we refrain from discussions ad nauseam of every hypothesis or rumor. Since what I posted above is exactly that, then let’s keep the topic of MH17 to the comments section below and let us keep the other posts MH17-free at least until we have some hard facts to discuss, okay?
I wish you all a great week, kind regards,
The Saker
A new twist in SU27 escort. Seems that the Ukies are about to admit that there were fighter jets on the tail of the Boing, and now they are trying to twist this fact against the insurgents.
http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7
Saker, agree with you 200% on the importance of good communication and media presence, and that the Russians need to really step up the efforts.
Regardless of who really shot down MH 17, millions of people in the West now believe that Putin was responsible. This, entirely on the basis of conjecture and unsubstantiated claims.
I hate to say it, but if this was a false flag operation, it has been successful.
Dear Saker,
To me Putin neither looks nervous nor scared. Like any good human being, he looks concerned and sick of all these civilians deaths.
God Bless All His Children and Show Them The Right Path.
Ameen,
Mohamed.
You have the benefit of understanding Russian and hence can better relate voice tone,inflection etc., to visual cues, so I hesitate to disagree with you. However, to me that video was not a disaster. Rather it was both decorous and properly in keeping with the gravity of the issue – and that includes facial expression and general body language.
It is in stark and laudable contrast to senior western politicos whose in-you-face determination to profit from tragedy is both disgusting and a good indicator of exactly who was responsible for it. FWIW
Putin looks absolutely sick or under big pressure. Should have got some powder on face before going on cam.
Anyway if not the flu, he he probably weighing in some huge decison and is in angst.
Machine translation:
if the witnesses have told the truth corpses were rotting, so the plane that was what he wanted to drop. It also says that the change of course was the target. There is also the problem of the rose of debris that is not clear. If all this is true then the plane Putin or one of Aeroflot do not hold up as a possibility. Only one trap that you can only stand with the Western propaganda, manipulation of data and control structures investigators. My personal thought.
Sweating Mr. Putin looks tired or sick or feverish from an overload of responsibility.
Big decisions ahead may be.
Interesting, but if true then the airspace should have been closed.
Unless the Ukrainian authorities are very foolish they will not make this claim because to do so will mean that they accept liability for allowing a civilian flight to pass over a zone that should have been closed to civilian aircraft. That’s the rules. Te rules don’t say ‘if it is not safe we will send a fighter escort’ they say, if it is not safe the airspace is closed to above the level at which combatants weapon systems can reach.
After all, what can the fighters actually do in such a case? They can hardly guarantee to shoot down a GtoA missile and it ain’t like they will scare off the folks on the ground who can’t even see them.
If they admit this then I think we are going to see that it becomes part of a gradual walking back of a series of lies. Just like a kid lies about wrong doing but when pressed and shown the ‘evidence’ he will admit to a part of the offence, then another and then another. Totally pointless as statecraft except in so far as the junta might be hoping to re-frame the overall narrative and hope that people forget what they actually did.
Saker I disagree, Putin looks a bit tired but not nervous or sick.
With all the surveillance the US has deployed from Europe, through the Black Sea to Syria, the US defence and security establishment must know exactly what happened.
The absence of any genuine fact from the US is suspicious.
“… to me Putin looks nervous and even sick.”
I beg to differ. He’s a busy guy. I hear a tonal change that signals an end of patience and (perhaps) a start of action at least for peacekeeping corridors etc.
Compare it with Obama who is still pushing the righteous anger blame theme without facts before the court — but then again he never really considered court rooms relevant in his droning programme. (see 0:38-1:18 in http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=12130 )
The common theme between the two (and probably by agreement) seems to suggest a move to the next stage of international peacekeeping etc.
BTW, my guess, unless the black boxes are safely in the hands of either the rebels or the Russians we will never see them now.
As time has passed, on a debris field with no real discipline or structure it is, IMHO, too easy for somebody who knows what to look for and who blends in with the other rebels to pick ’em up and hoik them away. From what I have seen they are not big things and made to be easy to find.
Of course he is sick; sick from the realization that his inaction took a heavy toll on the citizens of Donbass, and that all the appeasement to the West, all the good-will and ass-kissing for the past few months was for naught – just blown up in the sky (pun intended).
Question is, did Putin learn his lesson, or will he repeat his mistakes?
I personally cant see them backpedalling on this… I think even if experts findings prove it was the Ukes, itll get covered up and drowned out. I dont think I have ever witnessed the US admitting it was wrong. In for a penny, in for a pound. Or maybe Msm will find another sensationalistic disaster to distract the cattle. The damage has been done, im afraid…
Yes, he looks ill. Wouldn’t be surprise he caught a flu bug, between travelling to all those countries and then coming back to have to deal with this.
For someone who is constantly under the weather, you do not seem that sympathetic.
I think it is important to remember that Putin is human. He is a man that is trying to do the right thing for his country, but ultimately, he is just man.
Sometimes we make the mistake of making him out to be a superhero. He is not.
There are few good men. We need to protect them, be thankful that they exist.
I have said this before but it is important to remember that Russia does not have allies. Yes, there is the BRICS, and China, but those are partnership. Economic partnerships. We need to differentiate between Economic partnership that is based at looking out for ones economic interest and allies. Ultimately, there is a difference between allies and puppets. Puppets will come out to support their master, because otherwise they will get hurt.
The US has a lot of puppets. Russia has economic partners.
Have you guys seen the interview from the president of Iceland? It’s old, but it gives us a preview of why US police are buying all of these army weapons. We all know they are going to have an economic crash, and what they are doing is trying to avoid that crash.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zlzC_XMQzI
Saker,
I was curious so I tried watching it first without looking at the subtitles, just his expressions, tone of voice, etc. And I wouldn’t say nervous or sick AT ALL! The man is seriously pissed — and the effect I got, honestly, was like being dressed down and given what’s what by a controlled but very angry parent. Try it — you’ll see! I haven’t even gone back to read the subtitles but I sure do think a) he’s got the data and b) he’s gonna act on it one way or another because c) he’s had enough.
I don’t know about you, but to me Putin looks nervous and even sick.
Eventually even the toughest crumble, Putin knows that the coming decisions are going make or break him, he knows the truth behind the shooting down of MH17. I have acted like this in my job, when knowingly i try to give a false impression to fit with company politics. You can be sure the CIA, Zionist have found and deciphered all Putin’s weak points, they know how to get to him. He knows that he needs to fire Lavrov, he is inadequate to today’s politics.
Putin looks ill because he is sick to his soul about the role he is playing… knowing in his heart that what he should do is very different.
Evidence mounts that Putin has betrayed all of us, and the world … Putin our final Western fake ‘hero’
Putin joins USA in not revealing satellite data on Malaysian flight MH17 takedown … Putin joins USA in not publicising truth about 11 Sep 2001 NYC World Trade towers ‘9-11’ demolition
Obama acts like a fool discrediting USA … Putin acts like a fool as Russia is smeared and discredited in mind of global public
Malaysia is world leader in attacking US-Israeli war crimes, exposing 9-11 truth … Easiest thing in the world would be for Putin to say, US-Nato lies on MH17 smell like lies on 9-11 plane attack, Malaysians would instantly comprehend … but Putin lets himself and Russia be smeared
9-11 truth is no-brainer for Putin & Russian media, even his Atlanticist oligarchs could not complain … but Putin and Russian media hold back on what would shake the world
Putin long aware of fraud and deception of active CIA agent and liar Edward Snowden, friend of US Dick Cheney and CIA Brzezinskis, spearhead against 9-11 truth … with ex-pornographer, lying ‘Snowden journalist’ Glenn Greenwald directly funded by CIA billionaire Omidyar funding early attacks in Ukraine … Snowden fraud fully detailed in
Russian intel agency report in Putin’s hands … but Putin, after giving hints, says nothing, lets CIA liar Snowden prance in Russian media helping CIA
Putin seems now himself exposed as another fake ‘hero’ … like the CIA liar and faker Snowden he protects … like the earlier fake US ‘hero’ Obama who fooled the world … like the whole long enterprise of Western ‘fake opposition’, US Democrat-Republican parties, fake ‘brave journalists’ like Greenwald, fake ‘US dissidents’ like Snowden, fake opponents of the US empire … like Vlad Putin, it seems
Soon, perhaps, Colonel Strelkov goes back to Moscow, his ‘mission accomplished’, many dead bodies in a failed, enslaved Donbass & Ukraine, his supporters imprisoned and tortured, Russia defamed and de-fanged … maybe Putin himself perhaps sidelined from power … as Russia joins a very ugly New World Order in process of being born
We grieve along with the families of innocent dead … and so many more set to die … so many who believed in Vlad Putin
Hey Saker,
Any way that the comment format can be modified so working links can be embedded? Would be much easier to access information being posted.
Dear Saker,
Thank you for your excellent and ongoing coverage of events in Iraq and Ukraine.
I am commenting for the first time because I have a different reaction viewing Putin’s address than yours.
I see controlled anger not uncertainty and his comments are delivered firmly and with an air of personal concern for the victims.
And as for his coloring I believe it is caused by the color resolution of the film, for example compare the color balance of the flag to an actual flag and you will see his skin tone is a characteristic of the film and the lighting used.
I have a long background in public relations and film so my views are founded on personal experience.
I hope my input is useful to you in assessing the film’s qualities and please accept my sincere thanks for the fine work you are doing in informing the world on events that concern us all.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
As you pointed the other day you bet the Russians saw the same thing.
RT carrying the same story on the fighter headed toward the airliner
RF should very fast hire a top PR agency.Why not just to start,a website in 20 languages,showing the reality of the real power in Kiev(nazis,massacres etc).Historic of events since they started.Implication of mercenaries,Cia etc…the US/UE agenda etc
Graphic photos to show the truth.
This with lot of pictures,simple to understand articles,videos,audios etc
Organize a very big press conference not for the usual Moscow correspondants,but only on invitation for all the ‘big signatures’of the international press.
Making the buzz,announcing some revelations,they will all show up(their ego will love that).
More RT,in more languages,more russian NGO in the west,big donations for cultural and social projects in the west,they must to have a good part of the western neutral public on their side.
It will take some time of course,that is why it must be started urgently.
It is like in businees intelligence you must monitor the competition and provide on a regular basis new informations,actions etc
“A new twist in SU27 escort.” (@12:52 — why was the plane there in the first place? It needs no escort if its on its normal flight route much farther south. The answer appears to be “The 10-day NATO exercise code named «BREEZE 2014» has ended in Black Sea. The exercise, which included the use of electronic warfare and electronic intelligence aircraft…” (Suchan)
So, imo, the blame lies with NATO imo for fucking up international commercial activity in a busy world to strut their stuff and try and justify their budget etc. Caught out big time!
Now as the dust settles, and Russia cannot be pinned (although majorly mobbed), then it will slowly wither on the msm vine as a “mistake” by some poor lowly troops in Kiev’s military/internal security (read fascist nazi band).
Sorry for my language, I use the translator.
Yes I also noticed nervousness Putin but I can understand that. In its place, if I had to deal with a situation that could even result in the 3rd world war, it would long as my nerves would crack. I think it is a sign that something serious is brewing. Maybe we will celebrate the centenary of the Great War with a grandiose fireworks display.
The airline shot down is all part of the US war to isolate Russia from its oil markets in the west and us to take over.
Well, Su-25 has 11 hard points and variety of armaments to hook up. The part of standard armament is Molniya R-60 air to air missile with 8km range, mach 2.7 speed and it can reach 22000 meters altitude.
Russian military just released info that MH17 was trailed by Ukies Su-25 up to the moment of crash. Photos that emerged on the Internet with shrapnel damage do pint to air to air missile. BUK is probably just propaganda aimed to frame militia.
Lugansk update. OCSE observers had to leave the city after Ukrainian Airforce leveled the center of town while they were there. Apparently we may have now lost five our to seven apartments there owned by our mixed Ukrainian/Russian Ethnic Family. This was around 1.5 hours ago. ALso, two days ago Russia and Ukraine both kept the real losses under wraps on civilians. Not 15, 16, 20 – it was more like 44 in the open. That is not including the flattened residential buildings from the Artillery attacks at the time that no one could enter as they burned down. Real Casualties RADICALLY higher then is being presented. Believe Russia wants to not be drawn into war so is using lower figures.
Dear Saker,
how would you look like, with jetlag and truth in your bones? He is sick of the lies, and tired of fighting. Wouldn’t you be, considering his age?
One thing I learned in life – to have patience. It’s well worth it.
While I cannot understand what Putin was saying, my assessment of his demeanor is different. I see a man extremely tired and perhaps frustrated that all his efforts to persuade towards a speedy and appropriate examination of this tragedy are being spurned, attacked, and otherwise obstructed, whatever avenue of normal procedure he has attempted to take.
Any normal person – and I will grant that Putin is not a normal person – would evidence fatigue in this situation, and that it seems to me is what he is evidencing, extreme fatigue.
I remember back to when he had asked the separatists not to hold the referendum, but they went ahead anyway. In this present situation, he is asking for the required preservation of all evidence in the matter, and seems to be obstructed by both the separatists and the coup government forces – not to mention unflagging zeal of propaganda efforts against him that are beyond Orwellian.
The matter becomes increasingly dangerous for his government, and that would put any leader into a position of trauma.
Let us not forget that the bottom line determination is to destabilize the Russian government, fragment its federal structure, and if there is fear in Putin’s eyes, it is the fear of that and the enlargement, remorseless enlargement, of conflict.
Whether the separatists realize it or not, they are playing into the hands of the destabilizers. Yet public opinion is, I feel, opening up. Even the Guardian today made mention of the fact that the coup forces are attacking the area of that trainload of slain civilians.
Putin has called for all the right measures to be taken. He does not want the war that is being forced upon him. God bless and strengthen him and all lovers of mankind. The forces determined to cause chaos are extremely virulent, and Putin is showing human anguish at this.
I give him my support.
Saker,
The flight path diversion precludes that this was an accident. The Ukie scheme may have been to force MH17 into airspace where it was likely to be shot down by the Independence fighters (given the previous days results) or the Ukies may have shot it down themselves. I have been expecting a false flag event.
I read that a parachute came down too. Could be the missile took out one of the escort planes too.
As for Putin’s appearance, it may reflect that the situation is more critical that most expect. You have expressed that the USA is too sane to allow this to escalate to the highest degree. I am not so sure. I have had a conversation with someone that worked as an executive in Washington DC city government. While he didn’t interact with the DC elite (i.e. POTUS), he likely did interact with people one or two degrees removed from the DC elite. He surprised and scared me by saying that he did not have any respect for the Russian military. He thought Germany could wipe the floor with Russia. I believe his opinion is probably based on his conversations with “connected” people. Given his opinion and the actions of DC towards Russia over the past several years, I think it very likely that DC doesn’t have much respect for Russia’s military. Hence these provocations.
God help us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS7-b3FLn8
Breaking.
-Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Rader Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity-
*RUSSIA HAS IMAGES OF UKRAINE DEPLOYING BUK ROCKETS IN EAST: IFX
*RUSSIA: UKRAINE MOVED BUK NEAR REBELS IN DONETSK JULY 17: IFX
*RUSSIA DETECTED UKRAINIAN FIGHTER JET PICK UP SPEED TOWARD MH17
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
http://russian.rt.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSpeo5RcQQo
I saw another video of Putin and he looked extremely guilty.. his eyes were down, shifting from side to side, and blinking over and over again.
This video isn’t as bad as the video I saw earlier… he looks mostly tired here.
http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7
“””””””””
On their radar screens, the sight of a large plane with two accompanying (or circling in CAP not too far away) fighter jets was completely new and may only mean the Ukrainians were escorting an important plane. And that would be the reason why they downed it without spending too much time analyzing its transponder code and altitude.
[UPDATE 9:05 EDT] Russia’s Defense Ministry claims that a Ukrainian warplane flew within three miles of Malaysia flight MH17.
“”””””””””
If the Russians know what happened, I really wish they would just get around to saying it.
I find these SBU leaks extremely suspicious, especially the 2nd leaked tape purporting to come from 3 days before the plane being shot down. It purportedly has rebels talking about receiving a 3 man team of russian experts. If so, why wasn’t the airspace shut down? Why wasn’t this tape released immediately and only the day after while sigintel came less than an hour later of the rebels purportedly talking about the downed plane?
That being said, I’m leaning towards the rebels downing the plane. I base that on 1) Rebels claiming capture of disabled BUK giving Russia the option of giving the rebels BUK 2) Reports that made it in the Russian media of a AN-26 being brought down. 3) I highly doubt this was intentional malice and if it was a mistake it’s much more likely it was a rebel mistake considering the direction of the plan’s movement and the possibility of fighter escorts.
Dear Saker
Everything is changing quickly.
This e-newspaper had written positively about Russia in the past, now not any more.
There is a turn of 180 degrees.
This newspaper call Putin fascist and compare Putin with Hitler.
Those commentators who tried to defend Russia have been banned for good and their comments deleted.
The newspaper in question is advance.hr
I think the newspaper and journalist has received a warning that they could end up into an unknown jail or lose the job.
Here is link on the newspaper and the particular article.
http://www.advance.hr/vijesti/putinofilija-kao-fasizam-najodvratnije-vrste/
An Insert
The article was written by Mr.Marjanovic
Te manifestacije su podjednako ogavne kao i najvjerniji nacisti koji su si smještali metak u čelo čuvši da je njihov vođa u bunkeru kapitulirao na isti način 30. travnja 1945. Putinomanija počinje i poprimati brojne elemente nacističkog fanatizma, nerijetko su najveći obožavatelji ovog ujedno i obožavatelji onog. Neki od najžešćih Hitlero-fila danas su novi Putino-fili, što se očituje i u njihovim izjavama.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgS7-b3FLn8
Classic psy-ops.
It’s not that they wanted to bring down Putin’s plane (too dangerous). Just show that they could. So had to line up another one behind it.
El Sid
Another CIA false flag operation like in Kiev(nazi snipers in the hotel) and Odessa(agent provocateurs with red armbands collaborating with the police) is the most likely scenario.
I think the most effective way to expose this is to analyze the “evidence” that was fabricated by SBU and CIA (billboard in Krasnoarmeysk, missing clouds photo etc.).
The US was involved in such terrorist acts in the past:
“Declassified CIA and FBI records posted today on the Web by the National Security Archive at George Washington University identify Cuban exile Luis Posada Carriles, who is apparently in Florida seeking asylum, as a former CIA agent and as one of the “engineer[s]” of the 1976 terrorist bombing of Cubana Airlines flight 455 that killed 73 passengers.”
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/
Operation Northwoods:
“faking a Cuban airforce attack on a civilian jetliner”
http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/news/20010430/
Heavy fighting in Donetsk, goal: black boxes / railway terminal (corpses), disrupt international investigation. Office UA claim: not army, but pro-Ukraine ‘militias’ . . .
Now only UN / RF can resolve it.
Donbass is guaranteed.
I agree with Saker: without data we can discuss “ad infinitum” on the fate of MH17.
Something is sure, however: the guilt negligence (to say the less) of the Ukraine ATC and of EUROCONTROL not to have closed all flying levels above a conflict zone in which military aircrafts and AA rockets were operating from weeks.
The relatives of the victims should file a request to open a trial for complicity in a massacre in some European court against those people.
“I always “marvel” at how incompetent Russians are in public communications and how they systematically fail to appreciate how important appearances can be. In contrast, the USA, which Chris Hedges correctly calls the Empire of Illusion, has a superb appreciation for the importance of the superficial and uses it against its enemies with devastating effectiveness.”
I find that this is true of individual Russians and Americans in general. Russian immigrants here to the West, especially when they first arrive, fail to realize how important appearances are and focus on substance instead, not understanding that in most cases their bosses at work need precisely appearance and not substance. And even once they begin to understand it, many have difficulty adapting.
Perhaps the problem with the Russians is that they are still living in the world of reality where facts matter. The West has long since moved to the world of illusion where perception is everything and reality merely an inconvenient and trivial annoyance.
This is precisely why I was questioning the strength of Russian leadership last night. The present situation requires enormously powerful character and this is how I always perceived Putin. This video shows him as weak and sick. For some reasons, it made me think of a documentary called “THE CENTRAL PARK FIVE” that examines the 1989 case of five black and Latino teenagers who were convicted of raping a white woman in Central Park. The coercion of underage suspects and rush to judgment stand just behind the actual crime for horrible injustice. After hours of being interrogated and played off against one another with a complete disregard for the lack of direct evidence against them, the kids were physiologically ripped into pieces and eventually they all “confessed” to a crime they did not commit.
Putin looks like one of those kids; physiologically and physically worn out, unsure and guilty. The truth is, in the west, if you look guilty – you’re perceived as guilty.
The Zio-Nazis have no rules, no morals, no soul, no consciousness. They will stop at nothing! They’re lethal and cancerous for the entire humanity. Russia needs a leader who can deal with this type of enemy. Putin relies too much on the rule of law and politics. However, this a time of war and the rules are different. It shows that the Russian leadership was not ready for this type of warfare, in which everything is a fair game. I’m hoping that all those lives were not wasted for nothing in the fight for Novorossyia’s independence.
Anonymus @ 21 July 2014 13:38
Appears Robert Parry’s piece at Consortium news What did US Spy satellites See in Ukraine? http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/ is now supported and confirmed:
Russia just released the evidence
BREAKING
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
zerohedge post the details: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Anon Mongoose
“I am personally inclined to think that this was no error and that the Ukies knew exactly what aircraft they were shooting down. But if we assume a case of mistaken identity, then I say that their real target was not Putin’s presidential l-96-300PU which, according to the FSO has not overflown the Ukraine in a very long time anyway, but a Russian civilian airliner like the Aeroflot Boeing shown above.”
Frankly, I don’t find any of that very likely. The reality is that the risk-reward calculation for any of the parties very much militates against a deliberate shoot-down, with perhaps a “rogue” Ukrainian element as the only outside possibility of an exception.
Think about it. While it’s true that you do stand something to gain if you can pin it on somebody else, the catastrophic damage you would suffer if it were revealed that you deliberately shot down a jet liner would deter almost any decision maker.
To imagine otherwise is to delude oneself.
The overwhelming likelihood is that the shoot-down was a mistake like all the other shoot-downs: Iranian Airbus, KAL 007, Air Siberia, etc.
However, I think that one scenario that must be kept in mind is a premeditated scheme by the GoU to create a situation in which the rebels could be induced to shoot down a plane by feeding them either directly or via Russian intelligence a false picture that made them believe that MH 17 was a Ukrainian military cargo plane. That scenario makes sense in that it maximizes the benefits for the GoU and minimizes the risks.
Some of the key points that have been made here and elsewhere:
1. How did the GoU know almost from the instant the shoot down took place that it was shot down by a Buk missile?
2. Why, almost from the instant the plane was shot down did the rebels–based on the leaked recordings and the deleted tweets–assume that the plane shot down was an AN-26?
3. Was the plane diverted off its previously normal flight route. Based on the FlghtAware site, the answer is definitively yes. But, strangely, the New York Times article featured prominently showed a set of tracks based on data from the Flightradar24 site indicates just the opposite–that all recent MH 17 flights used basically the same route through the war zone. I compared the two sites for MH 17 and for the other airline flights used in the NYT article such as Lufthansa 772 and KLM 809, and there were discrepancies between the two websites for all of the flights.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/07/17/world/europe/maps-of-the-crash-of-malaysian-airlines-flight-mh17.html
This question is a significant one. I am quite suspicious of the data that the Times was using from the Flightradar24 site. Someone would do well to clarify the discrepancy.
4. Who the hell has the black box or black boxes and what do they reveal? Would they indicate any guidance the pilot received from Ukrainian or Polish air traffic control to change course?
5. The extensive array of cell phone monitoring of just the right people among the rebels to be able to develop a picture of the communications immediately after the shoot down and other rebel-Russian interactions suggests a sustained effort with the object being to lead the rebels–and hence Russia–into a carefully laid trap.
Frankly, I find the whole thing beyond the capability of the GoU alone. If such a scenario were true, then I think the Ukrainians must have had help.
“Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash – Russian military” (RT) http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
Video —
http://www.vesti.ru/only_video.html?vid=610598
@anonymous
“Putin looks ill because he is sick to his soul about the role he is playing… knowing in his heart that what he should do is very different. Evidence mounts that Putin has betrayed all of us, and the world … Putin our final Western fake ‘hero’ Putin joins USA in not revealing satellite data on Malaysian flight MH17 takedown … “
This is what disinformation looks like.
Mr. Saker good morning. I have a question for you: why Russia dont use this opportunity to enter in Novorossiya, to help the rescue of bodies and make all area be in order to the investigators? Is a huge opportunity from Moscow – enter like peacekeepers and humanitarian help.
What you think?
A hug,
Alexandre – São paulo – Brazil.
P.s.: In all my life ive never seen the midia acting so cynic like this days. Not even in the Iraq invasion.
Mr. Saker good morning. I have a question for you: why Russia dont use this opportunity to enter in Novorossiya, to help the rescue of bodies and make all area be in order to the investigators? Is a huge opportunity from Moscow – enter like peacekeepers and humanitarian help.
What you think?
A hug,
Alexandre – São paulo – Brazil.
P.s.: In all my life ive never seen the midia acting so cynic like this days. Not even in the Iraq invasion.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Russia has photos – Urk to blame.
I agree entirely with Nora. That is one pissed off man and Poroshenko had better pray he doesn’t fall into Putin’s hands.
Saker,
I think like most people you have been conditioned to accept psychopaths acting like leaders as the standard to measure real leadership by. Imitating psychopaths is not the way to go.
Putin looks and reacts differently because he is different and thank God for that.
The BusinessInsider link up top is to a propaganda piece. The “Iranian defence expert” is a writer for an English ‘combat’ magazine and has published books through English military publishers. What’s the bet he moonlights for MI6?
There is definitely a propaganda campaign afoot to paint the downing of MH-17 as a Ukrainian accident. They know the truth is coming and it is going to skewer them.
…. Just listen to Putin’s latest statement about MH17………
Well, Saker, one can, you can laugh at Putin because of this speech, or because Putin is riding a horse or because he is dancing…it is forced on people all over world to laugh at Putin no matter what is he doing.
Beware – the enemy of Russia believe
that Russia is a fort and Putin is gate, they think that to enter Russia you have to break down the gate.
Beware – the time is coming the Russian people will be persecuted as once were Jews.
Expect the flood of refugees from Russia.
Good people should prepare to assist the Russian refugees.
America prepares a plan according which Russia will end up like Carthage.
.
BBC on full court press to blame Russia and calling Putin a paper tiger that needn’t be feared and those woosie EU countries (Germany and France especially) should man up and get tough with Russia. Very hard on Merkel for still wanting to talk to the Russians. Coming down on Bordai and Strelkov as Russian agents/puppets.
Kiev trying their best to make an investigation very difficult – targeting the rail line to disrupt movement of the bodies. Full press on Donetsk.
One good thing (as I see it) is presence of international reporters at the site and in Donetsk to see reality of the situation.
Nope I detected no nervousness.What I did see was fatigue and suppressed seething anger.
RT finally released satellite data showing that an SU-25 fighter plane was near the MH-17. I wrote in some post a simple false-flag scenario involving using such a fighter plane near a civilian as bait. The purpose is to have rebels firing some missile (any type). Also, a mole infiltrated within the rebels could have been used to give them a “hint about another military cargo”. The story of the two full Kamaz trucks obliterated a while ago near Donetsk aiport involved a traitor, so there are more for sure.
Going back to the MH17, the fighter planes had also the job to launch AtoA missile, to make sure the plan gets finished.
The type of piercing from some parts of the MH17 are already proving that an AtoA missile was used.
The truth is coming out but how many people will be exposed to it? The western media is incapable of telling any kind of truth. It is made to be a tool of indoctrination, not information.
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-21/russia-says-has-photos-ukraine-deploying-buk-missiles-east-rader-proof-warplanes-mh1
Also Russia turning up the heat on Kiev about the presence of the fighter near the airliner and missile batteries nearby. Challenging the US to show their own data. From RT:
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
I don’t agree with you, Saker. I feel Putin is tired and nervous, yes — how could he not? — but I feel also his power, determination and light.
Thanks God he’s not a master of illusion like all the other culprits! These things should be felt with the heart and intuition, not processed with the mind…
Let’s send our good energy and confidence to him, not our doubts and fears…
Keep your mission and don’t let all this negativity cloud you!
Best,
Teresa
Frankly Putin speaks quite well and sensibly
Imperial media is finally reporting tentatively on the Russian claim that an SU-25 belonging to Ukraine was scrambling up to MH17 as it was shot down.
http://www.businessinsider.com/source-malaysia-flight-mh17-was-being-escorted-by-ukrainian-su-27-fighter-jets-2014-7
According to the news, Bodorai said just after the plane crash that they will allow international experts to the site but there will be no ceasefire (as militia was doing well back then). Now, as the matters have changed (probably due to the fact that Moscow had to move a lot of its heavy weaponry back) and Ukraine is taking back its territory, they are the bad ones as they don’t want a ceasefire?
You have a warmer heart than me my friend. I don’t believe Putin is subject to or shows human emotions. Politicians can’t and when they do it is always for gain. I do not think this was Putin being weak, sleepy, or guilty. Maybe disheveled, pissed off, and telling the USA, “that Iran deal is going down the drain faster than the debris from the plane.” I think it means, “I’m tired of looking nice for you. The gloves are coming off.” That’s just my Chinese interpretation anyway. I don’t know Russian!
Truly, western politicians are in a class of their own when it comes to manipulating media. Perhaps it is the media-centered focus of their populations that breeds this in them?
Novorussia should be prepared for another such ‘accident’. Previously in the Middle East, whenever a war/conflict turned decidedly against Israel, a ‘catastrophe’ or a ‘massacre’ occurred which brought international attention and pressure to enforce a cease-fire. This happened in Lebanon at Cana in 1996 or begin the process that leads to cease-fire as at Cana in 2006. The empire not only must manipulate perception to get into a war, it must manipulate it to get out.
IMHO the smell of defeat loomed large and the accident was arranged. However, it now looks like they might continue winning and so it was not leveraged to bring about a cease-fire.
The next time Novorussia appears to e on the verge of something big, another ‘incident will occur. Best to be prepared.
One minor benefit come out of this is that there are now many western journalists on the rebel side of the lines who are witnessing the actions of the Junta military instead of just parroting the press releases from Kiev.
There may be a change of tone in the reporting, just as there has been over Gaza with the output from journalists there instead of the usual situation
where they are held ‘hostage’ on the Israeli side.
http://russian.rt.com/article/41825
Just an info, not even a hypothesis:
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
Next accusation: the sarin trick, biological warfare, smuggling of Nuclear shit etc, etc..This is what Russia need to get ready for. Even if Russia totally let go of Ukraine, this whole trip is only the beginning. Because, this fight is not for Ukraine -this fight is for Russia.
No rockets, no missiles, just an air collision between a Ukie fighter in patrol or in transfer and the MH17, due to the poor training of their military pilots.
Two more thoughts on MH-17 to add to “the list” :
1. See –
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-ukraine/
where the reporter states the following:
“What I’ve been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that U.S. intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what look like Ukrainian uniforms.
The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian rebels in similar uniforms but the initial assessment was that the troops were Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered around the site, the source said.”
2. It may well be significant that the State Department has now released a so-called “government assessment” that holds Russia responsible for the airliner shootdown.
In light of the Ghouta incident, used initially by tha US to support air strikes against the Asad regime, the issuing of another ‘government assessment’ suggests there was serious doubt in US intelligence circles as to Russia’s actual guilt in this matter, and that the policy side insisted and proceeded on their own.
No, not sick and nervous. It seems that this video statement hasn’t been prepared like official statements normally are but rather made right at Putins desk. “Just speaking away” might look nervous as compared to fully prepared statements in the official press room being merely read.
My impression is that Putin is somewhat bewildered and seriously angry by the weztern freak-show that couldn’t care less about the human tragedy and simply (ab)uses it for its evil scripted show.
On the other hand I think that some grossly overestimate the power of propaganda. Sure, propaganda is one of the real and powerful weapons of the zato (zionist nato) regimes and sure, yes it works, and they have a powerful and coordinated media and propaganda machine.
But, and that’s an important but: Who cares?
Just look closer. The zato propaganda machine basically only works on *their own* people who are brainwashed from kindergarden on. And actually it’s strongly losing momentum; very many weztern people grossly mistrust “their” media and politicians.
As for Russia it doesn’t work. Sure, there is the 5th colonne but the vast majority in Russia knows that they have an excellent president and trust and likes him.
So, in a way, that powerful weztern propaganda cannon is basically but a huge masturbator.
As for ukrainia I’m confident that in a not distant future we will see the heads of the weztern marionettes and criminals roll …
Last but not least: Russia is very strongly peace minded and even tolerates a lot of insults and dirt thrown at her. But don’t be fooled, in the end Russia has the military strength to decapitate the zionist usa monstrosity. Except for the navy Russia is clearly superior militarily. Where, for instance, the zamericans have show planes surrounded by lots of superiority and high-tech blabla PR, Russia actually has working and excellent military jets.
May the ukrainian nazis rot in hell.
Ciao Saker. Qui in Italia si fa strada la teoria del complotto, con una regia simile a quella che organizzò l’11/9. Non c’era nessun Buk o missile, bensì uno o due caccia Sukoi ucraini, più un satellite americano giusto sulla verticale di zona. Inoltre si fa l’ipotesi che i cadaveri “piovuti dal cielo” siano in realtà contenitori di virus infettivi. Guerra batteriologica, insomma.
Vogliono appestare il Donbass per spopolarlo e così attuare la “pulizia etnica” Un saluto e grazie per le info
With the west pushing for War with Russia I am sure Putin is sick at heart and nervous. If the west is willing to go to these lengths what more might they do…… They stop at nothing.
But I saw this this am http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
with satellite pictures taken by Russia and more about the fighter following the jet that matches what we heard from the Spanish Controller.
Putin I think put on a good face in this clip. I saw a mainline comment about it this morning that noted he was wearing a dark suit and blue tie…..words fail me. Western media has sunk to the pits. They fill up their stories with trash and trivia.
That is light reflection not sweat. He needed a little makeup on the highlight spots.
TV production flattens, fattens and bounces light if you don’t have makeup to soften it.
He is not nervous. His normal weight-shifting from foot to foot and body adjusting goes on when he sits in a chair. Most athletes do that. It isn’t nerves.
The psycho-interpretation is very surprising from Saker. In fact, to put this bogus Putin’s plane crap on the front page today shocked me. It is the most lame notion of all. I’d rather think men from mars shot it down makes more sense.
His plane never traverses Ukraine. So, any incident would be over Poland not Ukraine. Now that would be interesting if something happened over Poland.
And his plane, I am sure travels with escort fighters in a honeycomb of AWACS electronic monitoring.
Let’s get off this distraction. People complain that the Russia propaganda-media doesn’t do a good job. Why is everyone obsessed with the ‘who done it’ of the passenger jet? Sheep. Suckers.
The war is on, and the militia is on the defensive. That was the purpose. Not Putin’s “sweat”.
Thanks Frances for pointing out the bad color, it looks yellowed. To me he looks like a person with a lot weighing on his conscience, tired, and frustrated. Maybe a little projection on your part Saker, perfectly understandable if so. I already proclaimed my position on waiting for more evidence to come out, while understanding the irresistible urge to speculate. It’s human nature. But it does take our focus off other salient issues and events, the timing of which only adds to the suspicion this was a false flag designed in part to do just that. Get well soon.
why wouldnt he look sick and nervous. he has just had a horse head left on his bed. his tit is in a wringer. it doesnt matter how he looks anyway, noone cares, he’s already been pronounced guilty and any punishment is not enough (for the slathering Western tools)
Russian Defence Ministry has stated they detected a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter in close approach to MH17 before the crash
http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/
Video of statement in Russian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXx3pTxUeT8