Intro and caveat
I think that any analysis of the events surrounding the downing of MH17 should begin with the following admission: no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia. Just like 9/11, there is no way, no amount of evidence, which would affect the unanimous chorus of Imperial doubleplusgoodthinkers in their conclusion that obviously it could only have been “the Russians”. So don’t expect to come across The Proof which will prove that the Empire is lying because if 9/11 proved anything it is that even hard, undeniable truth can be easily ignored by the elites and their media.
Second, I have to begin my “kind of analysis” with the following disclaimer: my information on air defense issues is about 25-30 years old which means that not only could my memory fail me, but things might have changed a great deal since I last was exposed to them. Finally, the place from which I observed air defense happening was a rather peculiar one: from a underground army command center’s air defense room which included a live fused (civilian+military) image of all the air traffic over an entire continent. I never got anywhere near a SAM site in my life, and I sure have never seen one being operated. Still, there are a few things which I know which might be relevant to this case.
If I got something wrong, or if things have recently changed, PLEASE CORRECT ME.
How air defense normally works
The control of airspace is done by two completely different networks: a civilian and a military one. The civilian one is the one people think of when they hear ATC (air traffic control). These are the folks who manage flight plans, who talk to pilots on different altitudes, who track the aircraft during the flight and make sure that there is enough distance between them. Depending on an airplane’s altitude and what it is doing, it remains in contact with different ATCs but they all work together. One more thing: the radars used by civilian ATC are very primitive, all they can “see” is a bearing. What helps them is that all aircraft have a so-called “transponder” to transmit a special message which indicates their ID, speed, altitude and course. The ATC then superimposes that info on his screen to get a pretty accurate idea of what the aircraft is doing. The important thing about all this is that the military is normally patched straight into that data and that it can use it to supplement the data military radars acquire by themselves. In other words, a military air defense network “sees” and “knows” everything that a civilians ATC knows and sees.
The task of military air defenses is dramatically different from the civilians ATC: the military expects to deal with aircraft who will do their utmost to remain undetected and once detected, the military air defense network has to figure out a way to hopefully shoot-down the enemy aircraft. As a result, the kind of technology used by the military is very different.
The first “layer” of a military air defense network will be long range detection radars. Their task is to try to detect an airborne target as far as possible. Although one type of radar can do this alone, typically data from different radars (including airborne ones) is fused to create a single picture. Already at this point the air defense command post will be patched in into the civilians ATC and it will have all the flight plans, airline names, aircraft types and expected flight routes. The air defense command post’s first task is to separate civilians (considered neutral) from possible hostiles. These 99% of flights are routine and regular, the folks in charge have a very good idea of what a normal sky looks like, they see the scheduled civilians aircraft doing their thing and they easily track them. Some military radars even have the capability to detect the kind of aircraft they are seeing on their radar simply by analyzing the radar signal bounced back (typically by the aircraft’s engine). If a target is ambiguous, the military can use a very different type of radar to track that target: this target acquisition radar will operate on a different frequency, it will have a much narrower beam, and it will provide the operator with much more info about the aircraft even if the aircraft does not have a working transponder (which would be most unusual for a civilian airliner). Again, modern armed forces have the means to fuse the data from any different radar types (including airborne radars) to calculate a solution to identify and track a target. The next step is the send a special signal, like a password, to check if aircraft might not be one of your own. Civilian aircraft are not capable of this kind if “electronic handshake”. Finally, if the military air defense command post believes that the target his hostile, it selects the best radar and missile combination to engage the target. Typically, this is done yet again by a highly specialized radar which sends a burst of energy to the target which is reflected by the airborne target and which is then caught either by a ground-based radar or even by the missile itself (that is called TVM track-via-missile) which then can guide itself to the target without emitting any signal (alternatively, the missile can use his own active guidance system which sends and receives radar signals). Advanced air defense networks, such as Russia’s, can automatically chose the best radar for each task, the missile most likely to hit, the number of missiles needed for the task, the most threatening target, the mode of engagement, etc. These systems are highly integrated and highly automated, which also means that they are much safer than more primitive systems (more about that later). They are also highly redundant which in practical terms means that if, say, in an ideal environment a missile system like the Buk M1 is just one part of a much bigger network of systems, it can also operate almost autonomously if needed (again, more about that later). Now we need to look at the “who had what” on the day of the tragedy. First, let’s look at
The Russikies and their capabilities.
While, obviously, they don’t share with me the details of their moves, it is a pretty safe guess to say that, especially considering the war going on right across the border, the Russians literally had it all on that day: civilians radars, of course, but also long range radars (ground based and airborne), lots of advanced advanced surveillance (long range detection) radars, lots of tracking and fire control radars numerous radio and signal interception stations. Since all the data from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can safely assume that the Russian side had something like “20/20 radar vision”: just about as good as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake.
What about the Ukrainians?
Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds. To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberian Airlines civilian aircraft in 2001. Since then, things in the Ukie air defenses have only gotten much worse. Still, the Ukies did have an ATC which at the very least should have reported that a civilian airline had a flight plan which would follow the points XYZ. I just cannot imagine a Ukie officer giving the order to shoot at an aircraft without checking for the available flight plans. Also, as far as I know, nobody ever reported that the transponder on the aircraft did not work and, if so, then that means that the Ukie air defense crew should have been receiving a clear signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap (1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10’000m in a straight line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces, there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies could have shot down this aircraft by mistake.
The Novorussians now
Well, here again we truly have a dramatically different picture emerging. First, the Novorussians have no ATC. Second, 99% of their air defense systems are either MANPADs (man portable) or heavy machine guns. I did see footage of some kind of air defense radar and command post, but I suspect that this was simply one surveillance radar left by the Ukies. No data fusion here, no integrated air defense network, no long range missiles. Except for the few Buk M-1s which they did get as a trophy when they took control a Ukie base a month or so ago. The fact is that I am still unsure whether they really got anything operable systems at all (the Ukies claim that their soldiers had disabled them, but that might not be true). But we probably have to assume that they got their hands on a least one operational vehicle with its own surveillance radar, engagement radar and missiles. As I mentioned earlier, modern states would integrate the Buk into a full air defense network, but since in war time this might not be possible, it is possible for the Buk to detect, acquire and engage a target all by itself. Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the systems the Novorussians got their hands on would have been operational. I find it even more unlikely that they would also have the people to operate them. Still, just to cover our bases, we have to assume that with Russian aid these systems could have been more or less fixed, and that a crew could also have been sent from Russia. Unlikely? Far fetched? Yes. But, alas, not impossible.
Still, there is the flight profile issue. The real threat for Novorussians comes from close air support (low level) and from reconnaissance (medium level) aircraft. Not those flying at 10’000 meters. Also, a Boeing 777 is much larger than an An-26, Su-25, Su-24 or even Su-27. Also, ask yourself, IF you had such a capable and advanced air defense system as the Buk, would you waste it on a poorly identified target? Probably not. Still, I think that at least in theory the Nororussians could have shot down this aircraft. Now let’s look at the famous
Cui bono?
Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko’s murderous policies – suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised “surprise” turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for “”protection” from their “aggressive and threatening neighbor”. Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta. So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:
1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely
I don’t know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.
Now let’s look at some of the crazy rumors which we have heard today.
a) one or two Ukie military aircraft shadowing MH17 before it was shot down.
b) at least one parachute after MH17 was shot down.
c) an air-to-air attack.
d) an attempt as shooting down Putin’s aircraft.
I don’t know if any of these above are true, but what I do notice is that all of them, if true, only ‘fit’ scenario #3: a deliberate Ukie attack. Nobody claimed that MH17 was shadowed by Russian fighters and the Novorussians don’t have any anyway (they only have one Su-25). If somebody was shot down (the parachutes) then it was most definitely not a Russian Air Force aircraft. Ditto for an air-to-air attack. As for shooting down Putin’s aircraft, this seems far fetched to me, even for the crazy freak show in power in Kiev. However, I would not put that kind of trick passed Uncle Sam who can always blame it on the Ukies. What is sure is that the US wants Putin dead. So maybe?
The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely possibility. Of course, this also means that if the Novorussians attempted to shoot down a Ukie Su-25 they might have missed and the missile might have continued towards the MH17 especially if its radar had gone active. So a Novorussian mistake is still a “possible”, at least in my mind. If, and this is a big IF, this was a Novorussian mistake, I don’t feel that we can blame them very much. The one undeniable fact is that this disaster happened in Ukrainian ATC space and they, the Ukie ATC, had the primary responsibility to keep MH17 in a safe air corridor and not the Novorussians who had neither the technical means nor the legal obligation to do so. Also, just a few days ago the Ukies had announced that they were closing the airspace over the combat zone to an altitude of 9600m (if I remember correctly). If the Novorussians heard this, they could have easily concluded that MH17 was a military recon flight flying towards Donestk from Dnepropetrovsk. Besides, I am not at all sure that the radar on the Buk M1 can differentiate between 9’600m and 10’000m or, if it can, that the operator would have been aware of the difference this could mean.
Again, keep in mind my caveat above. I am not, repeat, not a specialist of air defenses. But I did do some air defense and monitoring work in my past, and on the basis of that experience and of what I have heard so far is here my guess:
I would say that at this point in time I am 90% in favor of the deliberate Ukie attack theory. The remaining 10% I would give to the mistaken Novorussian attack version. I am more than willing to change my mind if I get new facts.
Stuff we should look for
First, the black boxes. Even when hit, most pilots have the time to say something and that something is usually recorded and radioed. Depending on the frequency used, that “something” should have been heard by PLENTY of receivers, not only the Ukie ATC. But at the very least, we should have the voice and data recorders from the last minutes of MH17.
Second, Russian radar tracks. That is a problem. The Russian military is one of the worst offenders in terms of secrecy and short of a direct order by Putin, they are likely to be most uncooperative. Still, these guys probably have it all: ATC chatter, pilot messages, transporter signal, exact location of the missile(s) launched, point of impact, etc. As I said, they most likely had a 20/20 vision of the air space over Donetsk. The trick is to get them to share it, especially with the corporate media and the “independent” experts all already clamoring that the Russians are tampering with the flight recorders. Still, things are changing in Russia, possibly after the PR disaster following the Soviet shooting down of KAL 007 (which most definitely was a US spy mission and deliberate provocation), they are more willing to share data. A spokesman for the Russian Air Force has already disclosed that they had recorded the signals of a Ukie BukM1 battery surveillance radar at the moment of the tragedy. He even identified the exact Ukie unit involved. Hopefully, as this scandal snowballs, the Kremlin will order the Russian Air Force to make more data public. Not to convince Uncle Sam and his EU minions, of course, but at least to convince the rest of the planet.
Speaking of Uncle Sam and his EU minions. They also know. The US and NATO maintains a 24/7 surveillance of Ukie and Russian air space at least to the Urals, possibly even on the other side (though I am not sure). I bet you that Obama was told who done it within 2 hours of the tragedy happening. That info was probably shared with the Echelon countries, but not with the rest of NATO, but even they probably know thanks to their own intelligence capability (Banderastan is chock-full of EU spies not a single one of which was ever caught by the Ukie SBU since independence!). So here again we have a 9/11 kind of situation: everybody knows, but nobody will admit it.
The last question then
There is an obvious last question which we need to ask: if the Ukies did it, could they have done so without the US knowing about it? The answer, in case anybody had any doubts about this, is absolutely categorically and emphatically not. No way Jose, not this regime, not one which is 110% dependent of, and submitted to, Uncle Sam. In other words, if this was a deliberate Ukie attack, then this really was a deliberate US attack. Not quite a “false flag”, but a sneaky dirty trick, a longtime US specialty. The typical US way works like this: organized and planned by Uncle Sam, paid for by the Saudis, executed by the Israelis. At least that is the historical record for US dirty tricks. That is also most likely how 9/11 was done. Why bring in 9/11 several times at the risk of infuriating the doubleplusgoodthinking crowd yet again? No, not just for the heck of it, but to remind everybody that the folks who killed 3000+ people on 9/11 would not hesitate for a nanosecond to kill “only” 300 or so, especially if the risk of getting caught is negligible, which in this case it is. If in the case of 9/11 it is the entire Establishment which by stupidity or by cowardice which was made an accomplice of the crime, in this case the folks who did it will have the support of a rabidly russophobic Establishment which will not care one bit about the truth as long as it allows it to further flame the flames of hatred against Russia.
A provisional conclusion of sorts – Lasciate Ogni Speranza
This crime will never be properly investigated nor will the culprits ever be punished for it. Oh sure, there will be plenty of books in the future who will reveal it all in minute details but, as Michel Parenti always reminds us, history is not only written by victors, it is also written by the elites, the oligarchs, the banking establishment, the 1%ers. If anything, 9/11 has proven that our society is completely indifferent to facts and proof. Our society is ruled by ideological dogma and political expediency. In the case of MH17 the accepted dogma is that the Novorussians are the bad guys and the political expediency says that this latest crime cannot be blamed on the “heroic Euro-Ukrainian freedom fighters” or, even less so, on Uncle Sam.
Just as I wrote this last sentence above, I decided to check my favorite Imperial Mouthpiece and, sure enough, I read this: “US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17“. See, it is that simple! How needs flight recorders of radar tracks anyway?! If the US President said so, then it is so. Any other interpretation is a criminal delusion bordering on terrorism. Who needs proof when we got both Poroshenko and Obama saying that the Russikies did it?
I am disgusted beyond words by both of these ugly, evil, clowns.
Well, I hope that that some of you will have found the exercises above useful, regardless of all my caveats. I wish my recollection of working with air defenses was better and I wish my knowledge was not 25 year old. As always, this is the best I can do and I share it to you, my friends, in the hope to resist the imperial propaganda machine the best I can. If there are those amongst you who have a more recent and possibly more hands-on knowledge of these topics, I beg them to share that knowledge with the rest of us.
Kind regards and many thanks,
The Saker
You don’t even need to walk on the quicksand of “nineelven” for an example. There are plenty of undisputed (any more) ones. Remember the Maine anyone ?The US blew up one of its own battleships with about 1200 men onboard, just to start a war with Spain. How about the Tonkin Gulf incident…even mainstream corporate press admit that was a set up. What about the recent sarin gas attack on Syrian peasants arranged by the degenerate govt. of Turkey with the foreknowledge and tacit approval of the Obama administration ? That’s been outed in detail by Seymour Hersh..
Surely the #1 rule of False Flag events is “Don’t get caught”.
So why would you choose a ground to air missile to take out a civilian airliner? It leaves a huge exhaust trail that is easily videod and tied back to a ground location – very dangerous.
You would use a fighter jet and an air-to-air missile wouldn’t you? At 10,000 m no one can see what’s going on from the ground, and video is impossible. And you wouldn’t trust that to a Ukie pilot in an SU-25, would you? No, you would have a US pilot in their best plane with the best missiles, that definitely wouldn’t miss, right?
And then you would say it was a Russian-supplied ground-to-air missile, and keep hammering away at that.
Sure Russia has the radar scene covered, and in the past they have always kept quiet about their capabilities, but Putin is no longer trying to engage NATO as a friend, so he could spill the beans this time.
Thanks for the analysis. This is a False Flag in the oldest tradition of the US War Party. I’m sure Russia knows exactly what happened. The ukie air space must be the most closely monitored in the world.
To JamesWPS. Here’s a question. Name a successful world leader in the last 100 years who was not ruthless. Its a prerequisite for leadership these days.
I have NEVER hopped on the bandwagon to criticize Putin just for shits and giggles. He’s a pretty pragmatic guy. He wants to move Russia forward. And he’s sick of ruthless American hegemony which is responsible for a lot of human suffering in the last century. I get all that. Given the spiraling moral depravity of ZUSA — I sympathize. But he learned his craft at KGB. If I can pull up my big-girl panties and admit that GHWBush wasn’t just some well-mannered patrician (but a ruthless CIA black-ops chief) then you can admit Putin is ruthless too. You can argue Putin has better reasons for being ruthless. Don’t know. Doesn’t matter. He wouldn’t be President of Russia if he were NOT ruthless.
I’ll say this one more time. I have NO FUCKING CLUE who shot that plane out of the air. But I would bet the farm that Obama and Putin DO know exactly who pushed the button — and why. I don’t think Kiev or Novorussia fired the missile. It’s possible. But unlikely. I believe someone WANTS us to believe Kiev or Novorussia was responsible. Ineptitude or fog-of-war is more palatable than purposeful intent when you kill a bunch of passengers and families on a civilian flight. US could have done it. We have the means and ability and are RUTHLESS enough to kill innocent civilians with missiles. Some might say we’ve had lots of practice. But no one has offered a rationale for that scenario that seems plausible. Russia had the means, expertise, opportunity and MAYBE — based on what Strelkov said was found at the crash site — a rationale for it. We will never know. Ever.
My only job — as a part of humanity — is to be a filter for TRUTH. Shilling or spinning for EITHER the blue or red team is cring-worthy. I’m too much of a snob to shill for anyone. Truth doesn’t need shilling.
Saker:
Starting from about noon today in the eastern US, the Russians have been sitting back with a wide Cheshire grin, as oppose to the suspicious panic they had yesterday.
Old Ez posted a very interesting link upthread – I would say by far this is the most interesting post on the thread.
This tells me two things. Yesterday, the Russians knew the plane had been shot down with a SAM launched in Donbass, but they weren’t sure immediately who had done it since they knew that the DNR had Buk systems obtained from Ukraine that Russia may very well have helped make recently operable. Today they were able to confirm to their own satisfaction that it was the Ukrainian military that is the guilty party, whether out of sheer incompetence as with the Transsiberia shoot down, or out of conspiratorial malice, which is my suspicion and likely theirs.
So today we see Russia rejecting the possibility of the black boxes being delivered to them and saying Kiev should lead the investigation of this mess (in other words confidently sitting back knowing they have a Royal Flush in their own military data as to exactly what happened), blaming the Kiev MOD for having brought operational AA SAM systems in theater and pointedly suggesting they were the origin point of the shoot down, and threatening to back up NAF with military force in the event of further cross-border artillery provocations. Russia in other words is sitting back and rolling with the western punches, confident that no matter what the West and Ukraine try to spin and release as “the truth”, they will be able to trump with leaks of their own intelligence data that show exactly who did it from within the Ukraine military.
Western newspapers relying on CIA/NSA/DIA sources have leaked the sort of “primitive” intelligence we might suspect the US to be capable of providing in this theater from satellites and whatever assets it has in Turkey, the Black Sea, and elsewhere nearby and correctly concluded that a missile was launched from the conflict area and not from Russia. If they have figured out more than that, such as the specific launch location or system used, they haven’t yet let on, and I am not sure they would be able to get that specific..
Russia on the other hand not only has its own air defence radar and data systems immediately adjacent to the crash site as opposed to hundreds of miles away, but also has the benefit that the Ukrainian systems (both ATC and AA defense) were all formerly operationally linked with Russia’s, with the likelihood that book door access capability still exists into their operating data, to say nothing of innumerable Russian agents with the SBU, military, and MIA able to provide human intelligence, as well as of course direct access to NAF intelligence gathering. It is therefore highly likely that Russia knows exactly where the missile was fired from, what Ukrainian unit did it, and has a voice recording of the fire command and related crosstalk from Ukrainian military coms and also from Kiev-Borispol and Dnipropetrovsk ATC.
In other words, Ukraine can spin all they want, but Russia is going to dribble the real truth out slowly unless Ukraine will just man up and explain what happened to a candid world.
Operation Northwoods was the template for 9/11. The actual documents are publicly available at the National Security Archive, http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/
As I’ve outlined, World War 3 has already begun, and the latest BRICS moves present a very big challenge to the US Empire, and the war within Ukraine is just one of many engagement fronts already occurring. Like the Hydra, the Unipolar Power is very resilient at fighting off the efforts to bring about a multi-polar world and has never wavered from shedding blood–anyone’s.
I predict the intensity on the global scale will escalate and a new “hot spot” will sprout.
I don’t know if anyone else has noticed this little item, but isn’t it funny how when 300 precious westerners are killed in Ukraine, it is an international outrage, but when Ukraine kills that many Russian among its own citizenry in the matter of perhaps a week by bombing, strafing, missiles, artillery, shooting, there is crickets chirping?
Could it be because as we already know thanks to Hitler, Streicher, Yatseniuk, and Poroshenko, Russians are subhuman? So their death’s don’t even count? Like Palestinians? Who just in one day saw as many of their compatriots die at the hands of Israel as died in MH17 crash with nary a peep of outrage from the West?
The rebels are restricting access to the crash site. Anyone know why? And according to the latest propaganda they are also removing all traces of comments from the internet regarding the downing of the plane in fear that such comments will attract blame. There is also the point that a BUK battery was seen moving towards the Russian border with one of its missiles missing.
Anyone care to comment?
Hi, Saker,
Photos of parts of fuselage taken at the crash site have now been published at a few internet sites in RU segment. The parts bear clear signs of being hit by arrow shape projectile, which means that the plane was hit by an air-to-air missile. BUK missiles have shrapnel in warhead.
weasel
Про “фальшивого” диспетчера (About the “fake” Manager)
http://colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1680221.html (trans) http://translate.yandex.net/tr-url/ru-en.ru/colonelcassad.livejournal.com/1680221.html
“After the sensational statements Spanish Manager who worked at the Boryspil airport and reported the fact of destruction of the “Boeing” Kyiv junta, was quickly brushed his Twitter (which is pointless – screenshots is more than enough) and began trying to discredit the source, saying that not the Manager and he was not such a person.
It is quite logical for fascists and their accomplices, as the Spaniard actually start torpedoed preparing a provocation. In fact, as mentioned earlier, the Spaniard more than real and flashed in the press long before history with the destruction of the “Boeing” Kyiv by the Nazis. For example, here is the note from may 9, 2014.
Spanish blogger about the situation in Ukraine: People filled with hatred
Spanish blogger Carlos (@spainbuca) used his Twitter page to offer their own vision of what is happening in Ukraine, where he has several years of experience with the air traffic controller. However, the radicals called “separatist agitator” and demand his expulsion from the country. On his Twitter page Carlos running Manager in Borispol, seeks to present objective information about the events in Ukraine without trying to join any of the conflicting parties. Unlike many large European media, he is not afraid to admit that to death in Odessa involved far-right radicals, and the Ukrainian military men are not eager to fight against their own citizens in the South-East of the country, as required by Kyiv authorities. Some readers thank him for his detailed and unbiased coverage of political crisis in Ukraine, others require for his expulsion and even death. “I have my own opinion, their own point of view, the point of view of an ordinary man with a job that does not imply any dependencies. I do not belong to the media, to any political party,” emphasizes blogger. “I think people are filled with hate . I do not see the possibility of returning to the West and East of peaceful life together. … This conflict, and the people don’t want it resolved. And hatred is so great , at least in Kyiv that this country, I think, will not be able to live in peace and tranquility,” Carlos said in an interview with RT. “My co-workers are not only intended to inform the authorities about what I give my point of view, they are urged to ensure that sent me a whole battalion to have me deported to get me killed, ” said the Spaniard. – I had a meeting with the security service of one of the European embassies, during which they told me that I better bring his family out of the country within 24 hours. In the end, I listened and day took my wife and daughter from Ukraine”.
http://so-l.ru/news/show/15524137 – zinc
Of course he they will try to shut up and try to discredit, as his testimony ideally complement the testimony of several witnesses who had seen the aircraft junta near the crash site.
PS. Also in the topic.
1. The “Buk”, which the junta was trying to pass for a Russian, was documented through Krasnoarmeysk occupied by the junta from may, it was no one rocket.
2. According to the message of Zygobranchia, “Boeing” was first fired from the Ukrainian “Buka”, calculation missed and the ship was finished with rockets “air-air” with the Ukrainian aircraft.
3. In General, various Conspirology in my opinion complicates the problem – facts indicate that the “Boeing” was shot down by a Ukrainian aircraft that was the reason of his death. The version with “Bukh” in my opinion is a false trail.”
Perhaps the Buk missile took out one of the Ukrainian fighters, which accounts for the parachute seen, and the remaining fighter then shot down the airliner.
вот так
Victor,
Perhaps they don’t want people to contaminate the crime scene. It is looking entirely possible/likely that an air-to-air missile was used, and they need protect the evidence.
As for a BUK, sounds like more noise in the endless noise around the Anglo-American Empire’s desire to maintain control of the world.
Video of that “rebel” BUK with 3 rockets according to information from ru sites is from town under complete control of the west-backed animals in Kiev.Location on video is town of Krasnoarmeisk/Красноармейск, Горького 49 .
As you said Saker Cui Bono
Look not only at the combat position on the ground (you do not need me to list that for you) but also further afield.
First you have Europe and US wholly out of step over sanctions and the EU unable to agree its new President and Foreign Minister, purely on account of Russia
Second – within hours the Israeli ground offensive starts to roll and has the best media shield money could buy!
Just to add possibilities:
Consideration against a deliberate Ukies shot downof MH17: they should know that the debris would fall in Novorussia controlloned areas and then profs possibly found.
Then, addo this.
If, for some reason, high altitude reconnaissance russian aircrafts were in the area, the Ukies tryed to hit them with such Buk missiles (recently rushed in the region). In the route was the MH17, or the aircraft/aricrafts entered in the MH17 shadow. So the missiles (such AA missiles are fired in salvos, no just one), hit the MH17 and, possibly the (or one of the) russian aircraft.
Fools think ‘the truth’ will save Russia- but the famous saying “truth is the first casualty in war” is ever true. The ‘zionists’ took control of the mainstream and fake alternative media outlets to control the ‘truth’ perceived by the sheeple- and in this aim they are 100% successful.
False flags are used because false flags work. That a false flag is a lie by definition never matters. False flags are always a small part of a well co-ordinated propaganda effort.
The aim of the West was to draw Russia into the Ukrainian situation (by threatening to eject Russia from its essential port in Crimea), but ensuring Putin did not take the big step and liberate the entire region of Novorussia. The ‘stick’ was the claim that if Russia went into Ukraine, the West would immediately go into Syria. This argument persuaded Putin to be an ‘appeaser’, and we all know how that works out.
Did you know the BBC claims that all the shelling on civilian areas in Novorussia is actually likely to be a result of rebel ground-to-ground missile strikes? You and I would choke on the thought of a lie that big, but the BBC states that lie every time it covers the situation in Novorussia.
Their evil knows no bounds. If you make the mistake of thinking that because your opponent is the West, in some sense there is ‘hope’ because the values of the West are fundamentally ‘good’, you are literally insane.
I would humbly suggest you look again at how the ‘Allies’ (the West) fought WW2. Not even Genghis Khan had the same taste for exterminating whole cities full of innocent Humans that the British and Americans used as their main method of waging war. Yes, the wartime Japanese were unthinkably evil, and the Nazis ruthless beyond all excuse, but the Allies were led by a far higher evil- one that used every aspect of WW2 to prepare the ground for one final World War- the World War we are drawing ever closer to.
Think! Peace in Palestine would be trivial for the West if it were desired. Peace in the Ukraine simply required the same solution witnessed peacefully in Czechoslovakia- a division into new nations on long-standing ethnic lines. The destruction of Libya, Syria and Iraq only happened because the West chose such evil. When the ‘Cold War’ ended, the West actually ramped up its nuclear weapons programs, ending the anti-missile treaties so ‘first strike’ nuclear strategies could be advanced.
Humanity does not want World War, but the mosters that rule the West surround themselves with various types of influential death-cult servants like the zionists and fundamental ‘Christians’ (who are not Christians, because they follow the Jewish Old Testament/Torah which Christ and his followers specifically rejected when they created their new religion).
The entire ruling class in the USA wants to see Russians subject to the same never-ending military aggression that the Palestinian people live with on a daily basis, yet Putin chooses to cosy up to the monsters of Israel, because of their historic links to Russia.
Russia’s supreme strategy is to own a nuclear arsenal far, far larger than most suspect, and to ensure that if the worst happens, they have the absolute capability of wiping out every square inch of the USA. What this fails to take into account is that the ultimate evil that has taken control of the West is anti-life. It craves the destruction of all life on Earth- to turn our planet into another lifeless body, like Mars (not so long ago, Mars was also green and blue).
Mankind has an inherent sense of self-preservation. True evil must seek to over-rule this somehow. First evil needs to take control of Man’s destiny, and this is what zionism is for. This is what the full surveillance programs revealed by Snowden are for.
I find disgusting that there is an inquiry into this tragedy and nothing about the disappearance of the Malaysian MH-370 . There should be a complete investigation of that tragedy and find out the criminals who did it. We already know who the criminals are …
the same that organized this other disaster . The same that allow the bombing of the civilian population in Novorossia and GAZA .
This state of affairs will continue untill the US dollar disappears from international trade .
Just a tiny bit of information (I can’t tell if it might be relevant to the case of the MH17): The military network can put the civilian networks of air traffic control out of order and NATO probably did just that on 5th and 10th of June 2014 over Germany, Austria, Poland and the Czech Republic as part of the maneuver “NEWFIP”.
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/flugsicherung-radarstoerungen-durch-nato-manoever-a-981575.html
http://derstandard.at/2000003227051/Flugradar-Ausfall-Nato-Uebung-als-Grund-liegt-auf-der-Hand
http://www.neues-deutschland.de/artikel/939538.halb-vom-schirm-verschwunden.html
https://netzpolitik.org/2014/elektronischer-kampf-auf-abwegen-brachte-ein-nato-manoever-57-zivile-flugzeuge-in-gefahr/
http://www.golem.de/news/elektronischer-kampf-nato-uebung-stoerte-moeglicherweise-zivilen-luftverkehr-1407-107974.html
Sorry, no time to search for an article in English. Anyway, in those two days the civil air controllers were rather desperate, because they didn’t know why civil (!) airplanes vanished from their screens and why they couldn’t get the data of speed and so on for the rest of the not-vanished planes.
I remember so well because a friend of mine was travelling on 5th of June. Many flights were cancelled or delayed, hers was delayed a long time, and I was waiting at the airport, getting more and more worried by the hour because there were already rumours among those waiting about ATC not working correctly.
AGS (15 July, 2014 16:19) writes:
The concept of “forgive and forget” is essential to a WHOLE life. It’s the basis of ones OWN redemption — not another’s. To forgive is to “give-up” or “let-go-of”. To shed something. An example is my giving-up illusions about “American exceptionalism”. To forget is to “cease remembrance of”. To literally un-see it as part of ones human history. Together “forgive and forget” is a powerful antidote to suffering. It means that the sin NEVER HAPPENED.
Yet AGS (19 July, 2014 02:26 ) writes:
…And God help any country that takes you in. You’ll ruin it just as you have America. Fuking diaspora parasite mentality running to the next victim….
..Life in America is changing. Rapidly. Those who wish to see her demise — or are actively conspiring for it — are NOT my brethren. May you rot in hell.
So What happened to our friend forgiveness meanwhile ???
Has it become an orphan, lost, and wandering the universe looking for a home??
Just sayin :-)
Seems to me that the physical evidence exhibited by the remains of the plane would show a significant difference between being hit by a Buk missile and an air-to-air missile, would it not? If as the Saker says the Buk is would explode just before hitting the plane and showering it with many small square objects (akin to flak?), this would seem different to an air-to-air missile which I presume would make direct contact with the plane and leave a large hole somewhere on the wing/fuselage?
NOTE: Really hate the method of Captcha used by this site – Not only a robot can’t read it, I can’t either and must often refresh it many times before I get something I can just make out!
Russia should be careful allowing “experts” originating from the Empire. Russia should examine the data from the black box with the authorities form Malaysia in the first place. The rebels should keep on fighting and not give a break to the junta because of this. Whatever the MSM says there is no turning back!
” disgusted beyond words” same to me
a facebook former westukrainian famale friend posted this one yesterday
http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/2404-terroristy-pospeshili-priznatsya-v-tom-chto-sbili-avialayner
Since I was a child, I had the idea the time for satanic games ended 1945.
To all friends of Novorussia here a
contribution from May, of unaltered actuallity,out of a very special viewpoint:
http://astromundanediary.blogspot.de/2014/05/washington-in-fever.html
mundanomaniac
Not for a minute do i believe that the Russian military used their electronics to target the Malaysian aircraft directly. I believe this was a local job carried out with help from Russian interlopers on Ukrainian soil.
However regarding your entire piece it is full of holes, this one stands out. You use this line to build around your theory/opinion: “since all the data from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can safely assume that the Russian side had something like “20/20 radar vision”: just about as good as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake”.
You sound very certain of yourself and the infallibility of Russian operators. Just one problem there, USS Vincennes? The most advanced multi-layered electronic warfare system in existence to date failed because of misinterpreted data by a human.
So yes I believe this atrocity was carried out without the aid of the Russian electronic warfare systems but your entire piece is deeply flawed and I quote but one example above.
the BUK-trophy
longer planned propaganda coups:
the BUK-trophy stinks, without it this coup wouldn’t have been possible
MM
Some reports are of 3 planes, then only 1. Might 2 of those have been 777’s in Malaysian Airlines livery – one the commercial flight, the other the privately owned 777 discovered parked up in Tel Aviv earlier this year?
What is puzzling regarding MH17, and quite redundant to the false flag narrative, are remarks about the condition of the bodies assumed to be from MH17.
Consider: The UN collected indisputable evidence on human organ trafficking in Kosovo. Israelis subsequently caught acting as middle-men in organs imported into USA.
If one had a Malaysia Airlines liveried plane available, would one waste it disposing of the remains of organ harvesting? I doubt it – JCB diggers are cheaper and easier. Far more tempting to save that MA plane for a 911 style attack on Malaysia itself.
As Saker says, Russian military radar logs would be helpful. Equally they might be helpful to Israel in determining missing information on the performance of Russian radars. We must rule out Russian military assistance of the type that could help clarify what happened.
Saker I would suggest that you scrap comments like the one from TerraHertz @19 JULY, 2014 05:00 which are trying to sow deliberately insane conspiracies ideas.
This is likely a ploy to sink the credibility of the blog.
“MH17 Hauled Gruesome Cargo
In Infected Corpses And Tainted Blood
World Health Organization (WHO) in sponsoring a covert biological warfare program against the population of Asia.” http://rense.com/general96/dutch.html
The actual airliner shooting and the corresponding mass propaganda are a clear indication of the “target Russia strategy” and the culpability of the puppet masters.circumstantial evidence shows it.officially facts don’t matter, they never did. the western propaganda machinery will not be distracted from it’s ultimate goal: the dismantling of Russia by all means.Voltaire net’s quote is most fitting here:
“Since the attacks of September 11, we are witnessing a transformation of the way the media report the news. They lock us in the unreal. They base truth not on the coherence of a presentation, but on its shocking character. Thus, the observer remains petrified and cannot establish a relation to reality.
The media are lying to us, but at the same time, they show us that they are lying. It is no longer a matter of changing our perception of facts in order to get our support, but to lock us in the spectacle of the omnipotence of power. Showing the annihilation of reason is based on images that serve to replace facts. Information no longer focuses on the ability to perceive and represent a thing, but the need to experience it, or rather to experience oneself through it.”
http://www.voltairenet.org/article184787.html
The Lockerbie case which turned factsupside down blaming Lybia’s Ghaddafi is a case in point (among others).
@Victor 19 JULY, 2014 06:57
Anyone care to comment?
No, we don’t feed trolls :-)
As far as I know Malaysia did indeed vex the empire when Mahathir bin Mohamad was prime minister (1981-2003), especially when he established the Kuala Lumpur War Crimes Commission in 2007. But he wasn’t prime minister any more when he did this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahathir_Mohamad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuala_Lumpur_War_Crimes_Commission
In 2007 Abdullah Ahmad Badawi was prime minister of Malaysia. Me seems he was rather corrupt, but no beef with the empire:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Ahmad_Badawi
And now it is Najib Razak, more or less like Abdullah Ahmad Badawi:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Najib_Razak#United_States
The German magazine “SPIEGEL” writes that Malaysia Airline after this second catastrophe is on the verge of going bankrupt:
http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unternehmen/malaysia-airlines-mh17-zukunft-der-airline-a-981884.html
What is going to come out of the other end of this is precisely the same as what came out of the other end of 9/11: American boots on the ground.
American troops will be joining the Ukrainian patriotic forces, until now hopelessly outmatched by Russians, within, I would say, a month.
I suppose the question is whether these American troops will assist in the invasion of Crimea.
We’re all Ukrainians now.
This is highly unlikely. War fatigue among the US population is very real. There’s no way that the US would risk a face off against an opponent (likely RF forces) who can effectively defend themselves. That’s just not how we roll.
Furthermore, there is no way the US can realistically deny pro-federation forces access to or resupply from their sanctuaries accross the border in Russia. This is a non-starter.
I shall say a few things about “Carlos”, the alleged Spanish ATC in Kiev. First, I think the guy could not have been who he claimed he was for reasons that became obvious to me as time went by.
BUT, pay attention, this doesn’t mean that all or even most of the information he gave was fake or invented. Far from it! I think he was acting as the outlet for someone in the Ukrainian military who had access to the information Carlos was offering. Even if some of it may have been disinformation at times, the only way he had of maintaining his credibility was to offer a good amount of information that was proved correct afterwards. An this he definitely did.
The reason it became apparent to me that he could not have been an ATC at the airport is that, as things began to get more and more sour in the Ukraine after the coup, he became more and more openly anti-Maidan, anti-Junta; less and less able to hide his disgust for what was going on. In addition, he was sometimes giving some very detailed and sensitive information on aircraft and military matters. For example one day, I think in early May, he said there were these foreign individuals or advisers or experts coming in the control tower and trying to manipulate things to make it look as if the Russians had invaded the Ukrainian air space the previous day. Carlos insisted that this was absolutely not true, but he added that the Russians had indeed briefly invaded the air space about 2 months before. He said the foreigners were trying to make it look as if the air space violation had happened the previous day. Sure enough, the next day or so, the US government announced that Russia had just invaded the air space. A few hours later the Ukrainian Defense Minister denied it, but nobody listened. Which proves what we all know: whatever Washington says is the truth by default.
His tweets were being widely re-tweeted since mid March. Clearly, it was impossible for the Kiev authorities not to get wind of them. And of course a Spanish ATC in Kiev is not very difficult to find. So something didn’t add up, and I concluded that he was probably not who he said he was, but still someone who was getting at least some first hand valid information.
At that time he began to be challenged by some pro-Maidan people in Spain, and shortly after he said he was traveling to Spain to take his family out of there, on the advice of some people. It all became very vague. Upon his return he said he had been detained for several hours and kicked out. Then a few weeks later he said he was going to try and make it back in.
The only pictures he ever posted of his surroundings during all those months of tweeting were of some trip in Romania, where he supposedly had gone on vacation for a few days. It is possible that he was in Romania all along while getting this info fresh from Kiev and re-tweeting it right away.
I have no idea where or who he was, but I know that much of the information he offered was accurate, not something you can just make up.
So those last tweets that have been registered by Gleb Bazov may very well contain a true account of events, at least in essence.
What I am saying is that we must refrain from dissolving the entire baby in his bathwater and throwing the whole thing out. His latest tweets may be valuable to understand the downing of the plane. Just saying.
I the next comment I will post a series of tweets that happened to copy from him in mid March, when it looked at times as if a Russian intervention was imminent. I really don’t think a person can sit there making all this stuff up
Some tweets from about March 15-16
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 1 h
Avión militar ruso pide autorización aterrizar en Sergey Prokofiev,donetsk. Escoltados por dos cazas, procedencia rusia h comunicación 20:58
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 1 h
El aeropuerto d Sergey Prokofiev deniega permiso, h 21:01
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 1 h
H 21:03 se pide abandone espacio aéreo d ukraine
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 1 h
Maniobra de aproximación. 400 m de altitud velocidad 450 k/h
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 1 h
H 21:09 paso rasante sobre Sergey Prokofiev , altitud 300, sin arribar
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 1 h
Vuelta a maniobra de aproximación, se solicita permiso para aterrizar, permiso denegado h 21:11
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 58 min
El avión militar y los cazas cambian de rumbo abandonan las proximidades del aeropuerto. Sergey Prokofiev
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 54 min
Una escuadrilla USA al completo d F16 acaba d aterrizar en Italia,
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 53 min
Avión militar q a intentado aterrizar en Sergey Prokofiev estaría dirigiendo rumbo a crimea
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 46 min
6 cazas hacen presencia visual desde la torre de control del aeropuerto d Sergey Prokofiev, tremenda pasada,
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 44 min
Los 6 cazas, toman rumbo a la frontera, avión militar d transporte sigue dirección crimea escoltado por 2 cazas
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 43 min
En formación y vuelo rasante ,espectacular,me dicen desde Sergey Prokofiev, a sido la presencia d los 6 cazas
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 38 min
La escuadrilla de F16 d usa aterrada en Italia consta de 24 cazas
Paco Яß @_oPac 41 min
@spainbuca La aviación militar ucrania sigue inactiva, ¿no?
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 38 min
@_oPac completamente inactiva
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 36 min
@Icebramovich intimidación en toda regla, espectacular la pasada
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 32 min
Espectacular, espectacular según los colegas d donetsk a sido la pasada rasante de 6 cazas, increíble
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 30 min
Creo q donetsk será el próximo objetivo después d lo q pase en crimea mañana
Ines Recio @ines_recio 30 min @spainbuca vivo en donetsk pero soy española. Como tienes esa informacion?
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 26 min @ines_recio estoy delante del radar q controla el espacio aéreo de ukraine
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 24 min Avión militar d transporte q intento aterrizar en donetsk sigue rumbo a crimea, utilizando la línea d frontera entre ukraine rusia
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 21 min En la zona rusa, frontera con donetsk 2 bombarderos rusos utilizar la línea d la frontera, sin entrar en el espacio aéreo d ukraine
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 20 min
Muchísimo tráfico aéreo militar en la frontera rusa con ukraine, en la zona d donetsk, por ahora en zona rusa
This is the last group. I regret not having copied more of his tweets.
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 16 min
Uno d los controladores d crimea expulsado d allí q esta ahora en Kiev nos cuenta q los aviones d transporte militar q llegaron la semana 1/
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 15 min
Pasada transportaban unidades de élite del ejercito ruso 2/
Leena Liukkonen @LLHelsinki 17 min
.@spainbuca says: Donetsk 2 Rus bombers use the border line, without entering the Ukr airspace, lots of other planes in the area, Rus side.
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 15 min
Los 2 aviones de la otan de vigilancia, comunican que van a entrar en espacio aéreo de ukraine
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 14 min
Mando militar de ukraine acaba de ser informado, presente aquí en la torre
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 12 min
Información muy reciente, ,4 cargueros de la USAF aterrizados en Italia ,os C130
Leena Liukkonen @LLHelsinki 16 min
If you’re interested in sudden activity of Rus air force in Ukr airspace and close, follow this guy @spainbuca In Spanish but google does ok
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 11 min
La base aérea de Kiev, tiene preparados 10 cazas para su inmediato despegue, seria la primera vez desde que esto empezó
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 6 min
A los q informan los militares desde la torre lo hacen en inglés vía traductor
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 3 min
La orden d despegue d los cazas d Kiev esta dada, pero los militares por ahora no la van a realizar,
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 3 min
El comandante jefe d la base aérea comunica muy claro al intérprete, q comunique q no va a ver despegue, no considera lo ocurrido agresión
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 2 min
Amenazas entre militares mandos en donetsk a la autoridad civil del aeropuerto por no permitir el aterrizaje del avión ruso
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 27 s
Me dice el comandante jf q en donetsk lo militares tendrán q tomar una decisión, con quien estar?
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 8 h
El mando militar pide a los aviones d la otan q abandonen el espacio aéreo d ukraine
Mercurio77 @Mercu77 8 h
De q nacionalidad son Carlos? Se puede saber? @spainbuca
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 8 h
@Mercu77 usa, uno despegó de Polonia y otro de Rumanía
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 8 h
La respuesta es afirmativa, se abandonará el espacio aéreo
Pájara 2011 @pajara2011 8 h
@spainbuca Que pasa aqui. mando militar ucraniano conpinchado con el mando militar ruso. Que verguenza.
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 8 h
@pajara2011 posiblemente esto tenga una respuesta q ne dio un militar, rusia jamás disparará contra ukraine, y al contrario tampoco
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 3 h
Terminamos el turno sin ninguna novedad, hora local 6:00
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 3 h
El mensaje para ser voluntario d la guardia nacional, es el del odio y 100/100 nacionalista, procedencia d muchos d sus voluntarios, 1/
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 3 h
Las aficiones ultras d los equipos d fútbol, esta guardia nacional esta siendo un ejército con ideología nazi, es darse una vuelta por 2/
✈ Carlos @spainbuca 3 h
Kiev y asusta su mensaje de captación, jamás escuche nada igual, esto si q puede ser peligroso, mensajes tales como por tu nación 3/
It’s laughable that the USA entirely misappropriated Mandela’s maxims on “leading from behind” to an altogether different purpose.
Mandela was expressly talking about modesty in true leadership: leaders taking the back seat in times of victory, and the corollary of taking to the frontlines in times of danger.
In the perverted Washington rhetoric, “leading from behind” means nothing more that hiding behind proxies, achieving their aims to less cost, dodging the flak and sparing American lives in the process.
Read in many MSM outlets that about 100 top AIDS researchers going to an AIDS conference in Melbourne were on board that plane. Seem to me like a huge number to be coming all from the same European airport, no?
Nice to hear from you again Mr.Pragma, much appreciated!
Mikhas.
@ DonbassBrussels
I’ve been thinking also along the probability lines, and indeed the odds seem to me prohibitive. Because to the extreme unlikelyhood of those factors you mentioned being coincidental, you need to add the factor of having the plane change its most habitual path in order to go through a war zone. Various people have shown that the path for that flight, as shown by Flighawere over the last 10 days was considerably south of that area, over the Azov Sea.
Something definitely fishy there.
Saker,
would it be OK if I use your blog to send a message to your readers in The Netherlands?
Hello all,
I have published a lot on joop.nl using as avatar a picture of Putin. I used the name Johan Vermeulen.
But I got banned after I criticised Israel’s ground invasion, yesterday.
I immediately continued with a new name: Jos Verhulst, but used the same avatar.
( Hoping the first ban was just a firm warning, and still keep my recognisable identity.)
But just now I got banned again.
If I come back on Joop, it will have to be with a new identity.
I would like to ask Bob Schmitz and Wim Roffel – who both read the Saker- to tell the readers that I was banned.
To the other Dutch readers of the Saker’s blog: Please write a few posts a day on Joop.nl about what you learn here, for it is the only site in Holland where you can write longer articles and have quite a lot of readers.
Greetings, Johan aka Jos aka Jan.
Do the Ukrainians have a 2 seater version of SU 27?
remember that there are multiple possible causes of the crash . 1. Rebels had a missile system capable of reaching it ( which is uncertain ) and shot it down. 2. Russian air defensem missiles shot it down.
3. There is some systematic fault in Malaysian 777 which caused it.
4. There was a bomb on the plane like the Lockerbie crash.
5. Ukrainian missile accidentally shot it down.
6. Ukrainian fighter jet shot it down ( eye witness reports claim to have seen these in area at time of crash).
7. Mid air collision between airliner and fighter. Until there is an investigation we do not know.
Talking about likelihood, just how likely is is that Malaysian airlines should lose two planes of the same type in a few months. There was an old Navy saying that to loose one ship was carelessness, to loose two was enemy action. ‘Enemy action’ in this case could stand for a systematic plot by somebody hostile to Malaysia or a system error that affected both planes.
There are videos which it is claimed show chaff, which would support the hypothesis that another military aircraft was involved. But the streamers alleged to be chaff could as easily be something else from the poor image – rolls of paper – toilet tissue or printer rolls.
When at the battle of Jutland Royal Navy battle cruisers exploded, eyewitnesses on other ships described the streamers formed from the rolls of plotter paper from their gun control room. This could be a similar effect. To identify chaff one would have to find it on the ground, not rely on grainy videos at a distance.
They (US, CIA, NATO, Zions, etc).
will blame Russia whatever the outcome of the investigation. There is no way back for the rebels they must keep pummeling the Ukie forces non stop. It is fundamental here the support of the other BRICS nations specially China. China should stop with this timid, coward? behavior what happens to Russia is a mirror of what the “empire” is preparing for them.China, Wake up for Gods sake!!
Recent statements by various Australian government officials indicate positions that are predetermined and hostile towards Russia. Similarly, in addition to already attributing guilt to Russia (even though the source of the missile strike has not been established and was clearly an accidental downing as no party if found guilty would benefit from such an action), Australian ABC News (government affiliated) are engaging in anti-Russian narratives and distortions (propaganda such as claiming the downing of MH17 was terrorism, Russia is an aggressor state, labelling Igor Strelkov as ‘Igor the Terrible’, etc.). But such information warfare is a component of ongoing anti-Russian actions. Indeed, several ABC assets/journalists have been agitating within and against Russia for many years.
But as Australia is an extension (partner) of the U.S./NATO Israel alliance, unfortunately such a position and actions are to be expected. In addition to supporting successive wars of aggression (Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, proxy war operations against Syria, etc.), the U.S./NATO backed offensive military operations by the Ukrainian regime (and associated war crimes) are also backed by the Australian government and media.
Some of the key agitators within the ABC and SBS are known to be affiliated with U.S. (and Israeli) intelligence (imbedded assets). Such allied information operations through media organisations have been disclosed in various reports. However demonization strategies and claims of terrorism by the ABC, SBS and various other western sources are clearly not based in reality so while such distortions may influence and manipulate domestic public opinion, the resultant prejudices resulting from such efforts to incite hatred are irrelevant to Russia.
It seems to me that the aircraft broke up in the air which would account for the bags bodies and various items not being burned.The only thing that burned was the aircraft that exploded when it hit the ground.So we have a situation where the 777 was hit depressurized broke up ejecting its contents relatively unscathed to the ground,,you see bags kids toys etc etc the passports etc undamaged because they were all blown out of the plane after it was hit.
so obviously whatever hit it caused just enough damage to cause the aircraft to break up at altitude ejecting its contents.looks like most people will have died from the fall not the explosion imho
It seems to me that the aircraft broke up in the air which would account for the bags bodies and various items not being burned.The only thing that burned was the aircraft that exploded when it hit the ground.So we have a situation where the 777 was hit depressurized broke up ejecting its contents relatively unscathed to the ground,,you see bags kids toys etc etc the passports etc undamaged because they were all blown out of the plane after it was hit.
so obviously whatever hit it caused just enough damage to cause the aircraft to break up at altitude ejecting its contents.looks like most people will have died from the fall not the explosion imho
p2. Australia’s (adversarial) position towards Russia through its official statements/ sanctions/ condemnations and ongoing anti-Russian narratives (propaganda) through its government affiliated media organisations (ABC, SBS) has been well established.
In the event of direct military conflict between opposing military blocs (whether resulting from the developing situation in Ukraine or otherwise), Australia will almost certainly act as an extension of and will be integrated with U.S./NATO military operations. The planned gradual development of anti-missile capabilities/architecture (naval based aegis systems), the increased hosting of U.S. forces, the development of interoperable military capabilities and visitational/operational hosting of nuclear capable assets indicates the strategic role Australia will play (as an operational platform) in a potential allied military operations. It is respectfully advisable for Russian strategic planning to respond accordingly.
could we get a translation of this into English?
Александр Бородай, брифинг по сбитому Боингу 19.07
It looks like the US is moving towards the position that the Russians did it. Their arguments:
– the Novorussians miss the expertise
– they have some indications that the downed An-26 may have been fired at from Russian territory.
– predictably they reject the suggestion that Kiev did it as ridiculous.
So they conclude that the Russian military – either independent or embedded with Novorussian units – did it.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukraine-plane-crash/weapon-eyed-malaysia-jet-crash-cant-tell-planes-apart-n160031
Listen to the first video in this article.
AGS said…
To JamesWPS. Here’s a question.
I was kinda hoping for an answer rather than a question
Name a successful world leader in the last 100 years who was not ruthless.
Vladimir Putin
Evo Morales
Hugo Chavez
Raphael Correa
Salvador Allende
John Fitzgerald Kennedy
Robert Fitzgerald Kennedy
Margaret Thatcher
Ok, the last one was a joke!
And what has happened to them all? They have all (except notably the last one, of course) been demonized and/or assassinated.
As far as I can see, the only evidence you put forward for Putin being ruthless is that he was once in the KGB. For this fact to have any bearing, you would have to argue that ALL KGB officers were ruthless. Do you want to make that argument and if you do, do you want to present evidence for it?
If I can pull up my big-girl panties and admit that GHWBush wasn’t just some well-mannered patrician (but a ruthless CIA black-ops chief) then you can admit Putin is ruthless too.
There is no logical connection between these two people nor with me admitting something you have about someone else apparently unconnected with Putin (or me). The proposition is therefore illogical.
For there to be a connection and for it to be logically sound, you would have to propose that ALL intelligence agents are ruthless; Putin is an intelligence agent (as was Bush) therefore he is ruthless. We’ve been here before.
As it is you are saying Bush is ruthless. Bush was an intelligence agent. Putin was an intelligence agent therefore he is ruthless.
This is on the level of my dog has four legs. Your horse has four legs. Therefore your horse is a dog!
You say you have no clue as to who perpetrated the crime of shooting down MH-17 but then go on to suggest who it might be and who it mightn’t be. There is an internal inconsistency here. Why do you say you know nothing and then go on to offer opinions that are just declarative statements with no backing at all?
My only job — as a part of humanity — is to be a filter for TRUTH.
How are you going to filter for Truth if you do not have a competency in using the tools (logic etc) for determining truth?
Russia had the means, expertise, opportunity and MAYBE — based on what Strelkov said was found at the crash site — a rationale for it. We will never know. Ever.
I am prepared to accept that as true if you are only talking for yourself. I don’t think it will hold true for others though.
If people can sort out who the perps were behind other major false flag operations using reason, I am confident the perps will be identified in relation to the MH-17 murders (if they haven’t already been identified, that is).
And you still didn’t answer my question.
The prefacing of caveats is a very welcome development – even some of the opponents such as the BBC are refering discreetly to them in their texts.
Perhaps it would also help to further acknowledge and add emphasis to our limited notions of lateral strategic scenarios – a myopia apparently fortunately shared by the opponents.
Patience is also a virtue in allowing the opponent to further and further enmesh themselves in media based on doublethink – a reference example as below:
http://www.voltairenet.org/article184787.html
Let the opponents cry wolf awhile?
I think the fighters flew close to the mh17 to make the silhouet on the radar one big blob the size of a cargo plane and with overlapping ukie military friend-or-foo beacon coming from the fighters…. The rebels could only conclude one thing, that they saw a ukie military cargoplane.
The fighters waited for the buk to launch, waited as long as possible to make the sam lock on the big target and then at the very last minute quickly manouevered left and right while the sam slammed into the mh17. Probably one of the fighters was damaged by debrie of the exploding mh17.
@ Old auntie
Regarding the military putting the civilian ATC out of order, in addition to the case you mention in June, there was one instance in April reported by the Spanish tweeter supposedly working at Borispol. He said all information disappeared from their radars, they went blank. He was kind of frantic while reporting this. The thing lasted about 20 minutes if I remember correctly.
This article coming out of the Jeff Rense site could be pure baloney and hogwash or more propaganda to muddy the already muddy waters. I post just so folks with more intelligence and sophistication can take a look. Some comments by Strelkov hint that something like this could be in the offing.
Saker, if you read this, you might want to look at the article and then decide it’s bullshit and not publish. That’s fine with me, I trust your judgement far more than my own on things like this:
http://www.rense.com/general96/dutch.html
China should stop with this timid, coward? behavior what happens to Russia is a mirror of what the “empire” is preparing for them.China, Wake up for Gods sake!!
19 July, 2014 12:06
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-09/china-president-warns-conflict-america-would-be-global-disaster
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-07-15/china-warns-us-stay-out-south-china-sea-dispute
Also, Russia seriously does not need military help for China. This is fucking Russia we are talking about. Russia can take on USA Nato on its own with redundancy.
I fully second the opinion of Larchmonter445 (19 July, 2014 02:24)… but then I find that I usually do.
Dear Saker
Here is a very useful summary of the situation. It refers to Russian radar systems, and reminds us about the false flag missile launch in the Mediterranean detected by Russia that could have been a pretext for military intervention in Syria.
The important points from the article:
And here’s what he [Putin] has done today is quite definite statement (yandexed):
i) Putin said that the cause of the plane crash was a “crime” [this word is inappropriate when it comes to technical failure]
ii) He said that the guilty country on which territory the crash happened – that is Ukraine. (“The state, on the territory of which it happened, is responsible for this terrible tragedy”).
iii) Putin promised to present evidence of his statement. (“I have already given the appropriate instructions the Ministry of defense .. that they have rendered all the necessary assistance in the investigation of this crime. We will do everything that depends on us to have an objective picture of the incident was a treasure and our public, and the public of Ukraine, and all over the world”).
iv) The US has a system of control over space, similar to the Russian early warning system. American satellites and installed in Europe radars also fix everything that flies and goes and crawls. And representatives of the American intelligence has already stated that they recorded a missile launch ground-to-air “by the Malaysian Boeing. But it did not name the place running. Said that “could not determine” the edition of the Wall Street Journal. The second part is not true. Perhaps Americans don’t want to open a public place missile launch. Why?
v) In an hour after the fall of Boeing Vladimir Putin called Barack Obama and something spoke to him. After that, according to unofficial data, the U.S. and EU agreed to consider disaster Malaysian flight MH17 “accident”. In any case, we already know that the US President on Friday will hold a meeting with the national security Council, which will provide him with all that is known about the disaster. While CNN reports that the fear of escalation of tensions in Ukraine States will try to be “extremely cautious conclusions”.
To me this seems to say Putin has evidence it was done by the Ukrainians and can provide evidence to back this up. Obama knows this.
The Ukrainians have previously (in 2001) shot down a civilian aircraft. Ukraine kept up the “it’s not us” story for 6 months, ans when supporting evidence came out stated it was “by accident” qualified by “It happens to everyone”.
“Andrew said…
Saker:
Starting from about noon today in the eastern US, the Russians have been sitting back with a wide Cheshire grin, as oppose to the suspicious panic they had yesterday.”
Andrew, I am not sure about panicking, but yes, I have same feeling. At beginning, RF blame UKR for direct the plane to war zone which pretty much means they are not sure if NAF had a hand in it or not. Now RF did not even make any noise about it. So I feel they must confident that NAF has nothing to do with it.
I only hope there is not disease’ed cargo to infect locals, and contaminate the environment.
http://europebusines.blogspot.com/
Interesting speculation
Thanks to the posters who have offered some critical evaluations and additional background suggestions to the ones Saker gave. Evaluations of who knew what when and how they responded to shape the narrative are important as we normal folk react with shock and horror, ‘shock and awe’ having become weapons of manipulation in these sordid times.
I would like to respond to Andrew at 19 July, 2014 06:39 that your comments on “the West” and crickets chirping only serve to cast question on your previous longer post. I’ve been ‘chirping’ on other forums about both ongoing war scenarios – both Palestine and Ukraine, and now I see further news of atrocities in Iraq, so the conflagration of inhuman carnage is some kind of epidemic at present.
De-humanization is a two-edged sword. Those who wield that sword diminish their own arguments. That is not to say atrocities are not being committed, have not been committed. They must be documented and remembered, but not imitated.
I know, that’s a high standard in war. But it is the only way to get to the end of it. And for the sake of the people, all people, we who are read by many must strive to end it. East, West, North, South – wherever we are.
niqnaq has got it:
http://niqnaq.wordpress.com/2014/07/19/it-would-be-simpler-just-to-say-that-kiev-used-a-buk-on-the-boeing-themselves/
it would be simpler just to say that kiev used a “buk” on the boeing themselves
An award needs to go to the Daily Mail for the single clumisets bit of agitational propaganda published.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2696847/They-shouldnt-f-g-flying-There-war-going-Ukraine-intelligence-officials-release-phone-calls-claim-PROVES-Russia-shot-Flight-MH17.html
They’ve doubled down on their previous claims that Strelkov himself personally shot down the plane.
Anon 7:10/weasel
Has it right. The body of the plane’s skin shows that the strike was with rods not cubed shrapnel the BUK uses in its missiles warhead.
This points to air-to-air missile strike. At 30,000 feet.
The plane, as in all crashes, will tell the truth.
The black box might indicate something ambiguous.The voice recorder might tell us little. But the exterior of the plane in very good condition already tells us hypersonic penetration of the skin by “arrows”.
Maybe they thought the BUK was going to work and it didn’t and so they finished the plane with a missile from a jet.
Maybe they thought it would fall into their territory and it didn’t so they couldn’t hide the evidence of a missile strike air-to-air.
The war is being run by Western non-professionals and incompetent Ukies. It is a means to an end, not a war fought to be won. After all, it is a war with Russia, not with the militia. Even the dolts in Kiev understand that much. It is meant to destroy Russia rising economically and Putin personally.
But it is boys and gays and women with no combat knowledge, specifically, CIA case officers who are stoked that military actions finally came to Ukraine, that the stooge agents they manage are following their orders moving troops and tanks and blasting cities to rubble.
This is war with all its horrors but it is an amateur hour Kievian production. Comedy movies will be made about in subsequent years, because it is farce and tragedy mixed in ideological wrappings.
In the end of this shoot down, the 777 will tell its story. It will get spun into more porridge of lies and deceit. But we already have the photographic proof of the “how”. And it tells us the “who”.
And we know the “why”.
They needed a break on the ground, not a propaganda win. That’s just a bonus. They need to break out of the boilers. They need to keep attacking Lugansk unmercifully. They need to reacquire ground lost at the airports.
And that’s what’s going on.
The militia needs to win this war of armies.
The air crash is a diversion. It is political distraction from the military moves. They should have called in the Chinese to establish a corridor to Russia for all the experts to move back and forth safely. China has interests in Ukraine. It never takes sides until things change one way or the other. And they move fast.
Know your enemy. Maybe its genetic. But Sicilians like me are born with an eye and nose for enemies. The West is so predictable. They cannot change their behavior pattern. Haven’t in a hundred years. Why is it so difficult and surprising that they would keep accusing and dominating the media with falsehoods?
The grassy knoll, the Twin Towers, the WMDs, the downed airplane . . . forked tongues, the Indians used to say.
Now this was a really shocking find.
Elena, of recent fame as Motorolla’s new wife in a video from June 18 claiming that Kiev was shadowing civilian airliners with military planes to provoke the NAF to shoot down a civilian airliner.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aKKoKmUtQXE
http://i.imgur.com/3VQOmaL.jpg
Actually, just to make sure you know the Daily Mail crapola is clumsy propaganda, Fox News in the US is repeating the same tripe, insisting that the tape of Ukrainians watching the aircraft dowining is actually Strelkov himself on tape gloating over his handiwork.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/07/19/malaysia-air-crash-missile-launcher-used-to-down-jet-likely-back-in-russia-us/
This will now be the ofifical Anglo-American “Conservative” line going forward.
juliana:
I would like to respond to Andrew at 19 July, 2014 06:39 that your comments on “the West” and crickets chirping only serve to cast question on your previous longer post. I’ve been ‘chirping’ on other forums
I am a westerner and thus a son of the West, and Saker will tell you I am examplar of a traditional Catholic “Latin”. Apparently you are a daughter of the West.
Being born in the Atlanticist Zone and descended from Anglo-Western European stock does not make you personally “The West”. “The West” is the existing interlocking revolving door elite in the senior levels of government, finance, law, media, academia, higher corporate management, military officer corps, non-profits Trusts, non-governmental organizations, political parties, Churches, and marketing/PR. I.e. the “Establishment”, the people who “make, “create”, and “put out” the news, spin, opinions, positions, and event, that drive events in the world and tell you what you should be thinking.
Unless you are on the “Inside” with these people, your good opinion on the topics you mentioned doesn’t count because you will never see it disseminated by the Establishment to the masses of millions as the line of what should be thought.
Keep the eye on the ball: what is going on is ethnic cleansing in SE Ukraine. The entertainment MSM will beat the drum of distraction on this flight forever! Saker is correct-we might never be told the truth but Obama and Putin know. The documentaries that Rt.com is doing show very clearly that the refugees are determined, capable people–one man was shown holding a baby with 10 people around him (4 women and 6 kids) saying that he was the only man in the family now and that all the others were in SE Ukraine fighting–he sighed and said he should be there too. He was probably appointed by the others to take the women and children to Russia. Jeez. human scenes: A woman crying and her son demanding in alarm–why are you crying Momma… Tears of joy, son, tears of joy.” And the dubious look on this 6 year old boy’s face was priceless. It is Unlike the welcome at the borders of the USA where children are seen as burdens and “excess” and unwanted. People are gold–a nation’s resource- in a real society but in one run by robots and drones–most are “excess”. What kind of barren world is being created?
LiveLeak.com – Better View of the Downed Plane – Images of MH17 Falling Debris
@ juliania
“..both Palestine and Ukraine, and now I see further news of atrocities in Iraq, so the conflagration of inhuman carnage is some kind of epidemic at present.”
I also think so. There is some kind of convulsive fit of sadism taking hold of the hegemon and the forces it sponsors. The atrocities just keep on going day after day in all those places.
Everything is done with total shamelessness, both the crimes and the lies. It seems almost unreal.
Now that western citizens have been killed, the West is feeling that it is touching it too closely and may be obliged under public opinion pressure to force Kiev to stop the assaults on East Ukraine and move to a negotiated deal.
Even if the Western public opinion is been brainwashed by the media that the Russians and/or their Ukrainian allies are the sole responsible for the tragedy, they will ask the West what its plan, besides ineffective sanctions,to prevent such accident in the future?
Okay, this is **really** creepy – if true:
All people’s passports which were found in the Boeing were registered on Facebook 21 April 2013
(translated via yandex)
When the journalists showed passports in turn, there were clearly visible data of passengers. Users of foreign forums not lazy and held its own mini-investigation which found that people whose passports were shown to journalists, “really exist” – have their profiles in “Facebook”. But these profiles, absolutely, it would seem, independent from other people were registered at one time: 21 April 2013 year. All these profiles are similar in that nothing but pictures uploaded on the day of registration, these pages do not. Also these users do not have neither friends nor any publications or marks on favourite pages – absolutely nothing! The pages are blank.
WSJournal
“Alexander Borodai, head of the Donetsk People’s Republic, told reporters his people are keeping the debris and bodies untouched “so far.” But he accused the international experts of dragging their feet and promised to guarantee their security on the territory his forces control.
We are in the center of Europe, and I can’t understand why they can’t drive four hours from Kiev.”
The federal government has no accurate information about the whereabouts of the flight data recorders, Mr. Lysenko said. Mr. Borodai denied earlier reports that the rebels had found them, but said if his people did they would be ready to hand them over to the experts.”
It would be simply insane to do that. Remember Lockerbie. Remember the Racak Massacre Investigation. The presence of neutrals or of one Russian expert would be worthless. What counts is the physical control of the evidence.
Since there is a threat to both cities, the evidence collected should be kept part in Donetsk part in Lugansk.
The experts visiting the location should be asked to wear tyvek overalls with sawn pockets upon leaving their vehicles. Otherwise they could drop evidence at the scene, as they did in Lockebie.
This is a big operation, involving all NATO countries. The objective is to justify hostile UN intervention as in Croatia and Bosnia, in advance of an attack on Crimea. Allow the first step, and you might as well quit now, and abandon Ukraine and Crimea.
@Andrew: An award needs to go to the Daily Mail for the single clumisets bit of agitational propaganda published.
Yes, I saw that this morning – just jaw-dropping in its transparency, it’s like the DM “reporter” wasn’t even *trying* to make it believable.
And yet – thousands of comments, all believing it, and slavering for war and retribution.
The propaganda isn’t scary (it’s baldfaced silly), but the response definitely is.
Fuck Europe!!!!!
I think Vick Fuckland just overestimated her powers
and decided to do something radical.
An RAF officer I spoke to yesterday, also told me what Saker says about the missile type from the BUK1. It explodes outside the aircraft. It is designed to remove large structural components on a fighter. Looking at the pieces on the ground on Rossia 1, that’s what happened. Ded Moroz’s army is keeping the OSCE observers away. Their vehicles were not allowed near the site. On foot, they were not allowed to inspect the wreckage. Like Ded Moroz, his army was reported to have enjoyed some vodka. Perhaps it is possible to give the command to the operaters of a BUK1 while intoxicated? No sane person can doubt it was the army of Ded Moroz that fired the missile. Strelkov was claiming he’d downed an Antonov 26 until he discovered otherwise (OTOH people here doubt 9/11, probably Kennedy etc). False flag operations like the Reichstag fire have to be small. One person who dies very quickly afterwards. More is too complicated even for the Israelis. It will backfire.
An claim in this weeks Economist might be more significant. The claim is that Ded Moroz’s army numbers in Dontetsk numbers 15,000 men of which 5000 are Russian “volunteers”. This strikes me as absurd. There is very little local support amongst the young for the seperatists. (I’ve never seen a picture of more than 1000 on Russian TV). The financial, supplies and equipment needs for a militia of 15,000 would be huge. Strelkov’s own writings suggest that he has about 700 active combatants. The slow pace of Ukranian Parliamentary operations is the need to confront them with overwhelming force to keep civilian casualties low – the Ukranians have to run the place afterwards. And the Ukranian Parliamentary forces are conscripts so not hugely competent (see Russia’s invasion of Georgia). Which is right? 15,000 and a justificaton for massive support for Ukraine or 700 sad losers overcompensating for failure elsewhere in their lives with military adventures at the expense of the civilian population. I believe the second case. When they are defeated will Russia leave them to the lynch mob. They will hardly be welcome in Russia. Putin is right to keep silent. He started provocative action to interfere with Ukraine’s EU negotiations over a year ago with a Customs Blockade (sanctions – much more rigorous than anything the US has done) which has not been let up. This whole thing has escalated from that action. It may be blanked by Russian media but the political class know it. Putin’s policy, which he restated on D day, has gained the Crimea but lost Ukraine. Even if he survives, he’s lost his authority. Can Russian leaders retire and live (Yeltsin’s mind was lost to alcohol)? Did he plan to retire after Sochi? Medvedev was coming back strongly at the time. He should make sure Rogozin has an accident while cleaning his gun first.
It has been suggested that the red/white nose paint is not too important because the HE element of the missile is unstable and would not be set up until needed.
It seems that this is untrue. The missiles are supplied as sealed systems from manufacturer to army and have a shelf life of at least ten years.
This suggests that training projectiles, even if fuelled for launch would not serve much purpose given that they are designed to not hit the target but to explode near the target.
It seems that one would not go round ‘loading’ training missiles for use and then painting the nose cone white.
Thus, if the BUK-M! unit captured or made available to the rebels had red tipped missiles, as seems not be the case then they’d not be much use. In addition, the rebels would surely be aware of the colour convention and thus know that until they acquired the requisite missiles, even assuming they assembled a trained team to use the system, that it’d be useless apart from as a propaganda toy.
Can anyone shed some light on how the local authorities are handling the situation in the aftermath of the crash? I live in the Netherlands and many people here are outraged over what some media are reporting (namely that separatists and/or locals are stalling the OSCE with their investigations, removing body parts from the scene and looting the place).