Intro and caveat
I think that any analysis of the events surrounding the downing of MH17 should begin with the following admission: no matter what, the AngloZionists will blame Russia. Just like 9/11, there is no way, no amount of evidence, which would affect the unanimous chorus of Imperial doubleplusgoodthinkers in their conclusion that obviously it could only have been “the Russians”. So don’t expect to come across The Proof which will prove that the Empire is lying because if 9/11 proved anything it is that even hard, undeniable truth can be easily ignored by the elites and their media.
Second, I have to begin my “kind of analysis” with the following disclaimer: my information on air defense issues is about 25-30 years old which means that not only could my memory fail me, but things might have changed a great deal since I last was exposed to them. Finally, the place from which I observed air defense happening was a rather peculiar one: from a underground army command center’s air defense room which included a live fused (civilian+military) image of all the air traffic over an entire continent. I never got anywhere near a SAM site in my life, and I sure have never seen one being operated. Still, there are a few things which I know which might be relevant to this case.
If I got something wrong, or if things have recently changed, PLEASE CORRECT ME.
How air defense normally works
The control of airspace is done by two completely different networks: a civilian and a military one. The civilian one is the one people think of when they hear ATC (air traffic control). These are the folks who manage flight plans, who talk to pilots on different altitudes, who track the aircraft during the flight and make sure that there is enough distance between them. Depending on an airplane’s altitude and what it is doing, it remains in contact with different ATCs but they all work together. One more thing: the radars used by civilian ATC are very primitive, all they can “see” is a bearing. What helps them is that all aircraft have a so-called “transponder” to transmit a special message which indicates their ID, speed, altitude and course. The ATC then superimposes that info on his screen to get a pretty accurate idea of what the aircraft is doing. The important thing about all this is that the military is normally patched straight into that data and that it can use it to supplement the data military radars acquire by themselves. In other words, a military air defense network “sees” and “knows” everything that a civilians ATC knows and sees.
The task of military air defenses is dramatically different from the civilians ATC: the military expects to deal with aircraft who will do their utmost to remain undetected and once detected, the military air defense network has to figure out a way to hopefully shoot-down the enemy aircraft. As a result, the kind of technology used by the military is very different.
The first “layer” of a military air defense network will be long range detection radars. Their task is to try to detect an airborne target as far as possible. Although one type of radar can do this alone, typically data from different radars (including airborne ones) is fused to create a single picture. Already at this point the air defense command post will be patched in into the civilians ATC and it will have all the flight plans, airline names, aircraft types and expected flight routes. The air defense command post’s first task is to separate civilians (considered neutral) from possible hostiles. These 99% of flights are routine and regular, the folks in charge have a very good idea of what a normal sky looks like, they see the scheduled civilians aircraft doing their thing and they easily track them. Some military radars even have the capability to detect the kind of aircraft they are seeing on their radar simply by analyzing the radar signal bounced back (typically by the aircraft’s engine). If a target is ambiguous, the military can use a very different type of radar to track that target: this target acquisition radar will operate on a different frequency, it will have a much narrower beam, and it will provide the operator with much more info about the aircraft even if the aircraft does not have a working transponder (which would be most unusual for a civilian airliner). Again, modern armed forces have the means to fuse the data from any different radar types (including airborne radars) to calculate a solution to identify and track a target. The next step is the send a special signal, like a password, to check if aircraft might not be one of your own. Civilian aircraft are not capable of this kind if “electronic handshake”. Finally, if the military air defense command post believes that the target his hostile, it selects the best radar and missile combination to engage the target. Typically, this is done yet again by a highly specialized radar which sends a burst of energy to the target which is reflected by the airborne target and which is then caught either by a ground-based radar or even by the missile itself (that is called TVM track-via-missile) which then can guide itself to the target without emitting any signal (alternatively, the missile can use his own active guidance system which sends and receives radar signals). Advanced air defense networks, such as Russia’s, can automatically chose the best radar for each task, the missile most likely to hit, the number of missiles needed for the task, the most threatening target, the mode of engagement, etc. These systems are highly integrated and highly automated, which also means that they are much safer than more primitive systems (more about that later). They are also highly redundant which in practical terms means that if, say, in an ideal environment a missile system like the Buk M1 is just one part of a much bigger network of systems, it can also operate almost autonomously if needed (again, more about that later). Now we need to look at the “who had what” on the day of the tragedy. First, let’s look at
The Russikies and their capabilities.
While, obviously, they don’t share with me the details of their moves, it is a pretty safe guess to say that, especially considering the war going on right across the border, the Russians literally had it all on that day: civilians radars, of course, but also long range radars (ground based and airborne), lots of advanced advanced surveillance (long range detection) radars, lots of tracking and fire control radars numerous radio and signal interception stations. Since all the data from this integrated network of systems could be fused at the higher level command posts we can safely assume that the Russian side had something like “20/20 radar vision”: just about as good as it can get. There is no way the Russian shot down this aircraft by mistake.
What about the Ukrainians?
Here the reality is dramatically different: almost all of the Ukrainian air defense equipment is hopelessly outdated, far in excess of its normal shelf life. The Ukie air defense systems have not trained with live firing for dacades. Unlike the Russian who use contracted professionals on all crucial levels, the Ukies are known to be using conscripts simply due to a lack of funds. To illustrate the bloodly mess the Ukie air defenses are, it is enough to recall here how gross incompetence, mismanagement and outdated equipment resulted in the downing of the Siberian Airlines civilian aircraft in 2001. Since then, things in the Ukie air defenses have only gotten much worse. Still, the Ukies did have an ATC which at the very least should have reported that a civilian airline had a flight plan which would follow the points XYZ. I just cannot imagine a Ukie officer giving the order to shoot at an aircraft without checking for the available flight plans. Also, as far as I know, nobody ever reported that the transponder on the aircraft did not work and, if so, then that means that the Ukie air defense crew should have been receiving a clear signal identifying the aircraft. Let me add here that you can purchase special receivers and antennas which can receive transponder signals on the market and that they are comparatively cheap (1000 bucks range I think). Lastly, but still an option, a Ukie air defense operator could have simply lifted the phone, called the ATC and asked who such and such aircraft was. And even without that: when you see an aircraft flying right around 550 knots at 10’000m in a straight line in a civilian air traffic corridor, you can kinda guess that this is not a military aircraft on a bombing run. So regardless of the state of disrepair of the Ukie air defense forces, there is just no way that they could have mistaken this airliner for a Russian military jet flying on a combat mission. Oh, and did I mention MH17 was flying on west to east course, not from Russia, but towards Russia? Bottom line here for me is this: there is no way the Ukies could have shot down this aircraft by mistake.
The Novorussians now
Well, here again we truly have a dramatically different picture emerging. First, the Novorussians have no ATC. Second, 99% of their air defense systems are either MANPADs (man portable) or heavy machine guns. I did see footage of some kind of air defense radar and command post, but I suspect that this was simply one surveillance radar left by the Ukies. No data fusion here, no integrated air defense network, no long range missiles. Except for the few Buk M-1s which they did get as a trophy when they took control a Ukie base a month or so ago. The fact is that I am still unsure whether they really got anything operable systems at all (the Ukies claim that their soldiers had disabled them, but that might not be true). But we probably have to assume that they got their hands on a least one operational vehicle with its own surveillance radar, engagement radar and missiles. As I mentioned earlier, modern states would integrate the Buk into a full air defense network, but since in war time this might not be possible, it is possible for the Buk to detect, acquire and engage a target all by itself. Frankly, I find it very unlikely that the systems the Novorussians got their hands on would have been operational. I find it even more unlikely that they would also have the people to operate them. Still, just to cover our bases, we have to assume that with Russian aid these systems could have been more or less fixed, and that a crew could also have been sent from Russia. Unlikely? Far fetched? Yes. But, alas, not impossible.
Still, there is the flight profile issue. The real threat for Novorussians comes from close air support (low level) and from reconnaissance (medium level) aircraft. Not those flying at 10’000 meters. Also, a Boeing 777 is much larger than an An-26, Su-25, Su-24 or even Su-27. Also, ask yourself, IF you had such a capable and advanced air defense system as the Buk, would you waste it on a poorly identified target? Probably not. Still, I think that at least in theory the Nororussians could have shot down this aircraft. Now let’s look at the famous
Cui bono?
Well here at least the reply is unambiguous: only the junta in Kiev could have benefited from this tragedy. For the Russians and the Novorussians, this is something between a real pain and a disaster. Just when the Novorussians were winning without any overt help from Moscow and just when Moscow was gradually successful in denouncing the human costs of Poroshenko’s murderous policies – suddenly the entire planet focuses just on one downed aircraft and the imperial corporate media blames it all on Russia. As for Poroshenko, this disaster is God-sent: not only has everybody forgotten that much promised “surprise” turned out to be a disaster, he can now kill scores of Novorussians with no risks of that being reported in the corporate media. Not only that, but that gives the Ukies a golden excuse to ask for “”protection” from their “aggressive and threatening neighbor”. Again, the only party who can benefit from this disaster is the junta. So, in summary, we have this list of candidates:
1) A deliberate or mistaken Russian attack: superlatively unlikely
2) A mistaken Ukrainian attack: most unlikely
3) A deliberate Ukrainian attack: most likely
4) A mistaken Novorussian attack: possible
5) A deliberate Novorussian attack: most unlikely
I don’t know about you, but to me #3 is the one blinking red.
Now let’s look at some of the crazy rumors which we have heard today.
a) one or two Ukie military aircraft shadowing MH17 before it was shot down.
b) at least one parachute after MH17 was shot down.
c) an air-to-air attack.
d) an attempt as shooting down Putin’s aircraft.
I don’t know if any of these above are true, but what I do notice is that all of them, if true, only ‘fit’ scenario #3: a deliberate Ukie attack. Nobody claimed that MH17 was shadowed by Russian fighters and the Novorussians don’t have any anyway (they only have one Su-25). If somebody was shot down (the parachutes) then it was most definitely not a Russian Air Force aircraft. Ditto for an air-to-air attack. As for shooting down Putin’s aircraft, this seems far fetched to me, even for the crazy freak show in power in Kiev. However, I would not put that kind of trick passed Uncle Sam who can always blame it on the Ukies. What is sure is that the US wants Putin dead. So maybe?
The current version of the Novorussians is an interesting one: they say that a Ukie Su-25 shot down MH17 and that they then shot down the Ukie Su-25. Actually, this is not the most unlikely possibility. Of course, this also means that if the Novorussians attempted to shoot down a Ukie Su-25 they might have missed and the missile might have continued towards the MH17 especially if its radar had gone active. So a Novorussian mistake is still a “possible”, at least in my mind. If, and this is a big IF, this was a Novorussian mistake, I don’t feel that we can blame them very much. The one undeniable fact is that this disaster happened in Ukrainian ATC space and they, the Ukie ATC, had the primary responsibility to keep MH17 in a safe air corridor and not the Novorussians who had neither the technical means nor the legal obligation to do so. Also, just a few days ago the Ukies had announced that they were closing the airspace over the combat zone to an altitude of 9600m (if I remember correctly). If the Novorussians heard this, they could have easily concluded that MH17 was a military recon flight flying towards Donestk from Dnepropetrovsk. Besides, I am not at all sure that the radar on the Buk M1 can differentiate between 9’600m and 10’000m or, if it can, that the operator would have been aware of the difference this could mean.
Again, keep in mind my caveat above. I am not, repeat, not a specialist of air defenses. But I did do some air defense and monitoring work in my past, and on the basis of that experience and of what I have heard so far is here my guess:
I would say that at this point in time I am 90% in favor of the deliberate Ukie attack theory. The remaining 10% I would give to the mistaken Novorussian attack version. I am more than willing to change my mind if I get new facts.
Stuff we should look for
First, the black boxes. Even when hit, most pilots have the time to say something and that something is usually recorded and radioed. Depending on the frequency used, that “something” should have been heard by PLENTY of receivers, not only the Ukie ATC. But at the very least, we should have the voice and data recorders from the last minutes of MH17.
Second, Russian radar tracks. That is a problem. The Russian military is one of the worst offenders in terms of secrecy and short of a direct order by Putin, they are likely to be most uncooperative. Still, these guys probably have it all: ATC chatter, pilot messages, transporter signal, exact location of the missile(s) launched, point of impact, etc. As I said, they most likely had a 20/20 vision of the air space over Donetsk. The trick is to get them to share it, especially with the corporate media and the “independent” experts all already clamoring that the Russians are tampering with the flight recorders. Still, things are changing in Russia, possibly after the PR disaster following the Soviet shooting down of KAL 007 (which most definitely was a US spy mission and deliberate provocation), they are more willing to share data. A spokesman for the Russian Air Force has already disclosed that they had recorded the signals of a Ukie BukM1 battery surveillance radar at the moment of the tragedy. He even identified the exact Ukie unit involved. Hopefully, as this scandal snowballs, the Kremlin will order the Russian Air Force to make more data public. Not to convince Uncle Sam and his EU minions, of course, but at least to convince the rest of the planet.
Speaking of Uncle Sam and his EU minions. They also know. The US and NATO maintains a 24/7 surveillance of Ukie and Russian air space at least to the Urals, possibly even on the other side (though I am not sure). I bet you that Obama was told who done it within 2 hours of the tragedy happening. That info was probably shared with the Echelon countries, but not with the rest of NATO, but even they probably know thanks to their own intelligence capability (Banderastan is chock-full of EU spies not a single one of which was ever caught by the Ukie SBU since independence!). So here again we have a 9/11 kind of situation: everybody knows, but nobody will admit it.
The last question then
There is an obvious last question which we need to ask: if the Ukies did it, could they have done so without the US knowing about it? The answer, in case anybody had any doubts about this, is absolutely categorically and emphatically not. No way Jose, not this regime, not one which is 110% dependent of, and submitted to, Uncle Sam. In other words, if this was a deliberate Ukie attack, then this really was a deliberate US attack. Not quite a “false flag”, but a sneaky dirty trick, a longtime US specialty. The typical US way works like this: organized and planned by Uncle Sam, paid for by the Saudis, executed by the Israelis. At least that is the historical record for US dirty tricks. That is also most likely how 9/11 was done. Why bring in 9/11 several times at the risk of infuriating the doubleplusgoodthinking crowd yet again? No, not just for the heck of it, but to remind everybody that the folks who killed 3000+ people on 9/11 would not hesitate for a nanosecond to kill “only” 300 or so, especially if the risk of getting caught is negligible, which in this case it is. If in the case of 9/11 it is the entire Establishment which by stupidity or by cowardice which was made an accomplice of the crime, in this case the folks who did it will have the support of a rabidly russophobic Establishment which will not care one bit about the truth as long as it allows it to further flame the flames of hatred against Russia.
A provisional conclusion of sorts – Lasciate Ogni Speranza
This crime will never be properly investigated nor will the culprits ever be punished for it. Oh sure, there will be plenty of books in the future who will reveal it all in minute details but, as Michel Parenti always reminds us, history is not only written by victors, it is also written by the elites, the oligarchs, the banking establishment, the 1%ers. If anything, 9/11 has proven that our society is completely indifferent to facts and proof. Our society is ruled by ideological dogma and political expediency. In the case of MH17 the accepted dogma is that the Novorussians are the bad guys and the political expediency says that this latest crime cannot be blamed on the “heroic Euro-Ukrainian freedom fighters” or, even less so, on Uncle Sam.
Just as I wrote this last sentence above, I decided to check my favorite Imperial Mouthpiece and, sure enough, I read this: “US President Barack Obama has said a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area in east Ukraine brought down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17“. See, it is that simple! How needs flight recorders of radar tracks anyway?! If the US President said so, then it is so. Any other interpretation is a criminal delusion bordering on terrorism. Who needs proof when we got both Poroshenko and Obama saying that the Russikies did it?
I am disgusted beyond words by both of these ugly, evil, clowns.
Well, I hope that that some of you will have found the exercises above useful, regardless of all my caveats. I wish my recollection of working with air defenses was better and I wish my knowledge was not 25 year old. As always, this is the best I can do and I share it to you, my friends, in the hope to resist the imperial propaganda machine the best I can. If there are those amongst you who have a more recent and possibly more hands-on knowledge of these topics, I beg them to share that knowledge with the rest of us.
Kind regards and many thanks,
The Saker
Here are the photos of the damage to the plane by the “rods” “arrows”.
Air-to-air missile strike
I am sure that this will be the turning point for the experts.
Until the U.S. announces that the militia has MiGs and Su 27 air force in underground shelters that are connected by tunnels to Putin’s home across the border. In fact, they have photos showing Putin was flying the plane that shot the missile that downed the airliner.
They’ll display them as soon as the photoshop render kicks out the HD versions without any matte lines around his face. Fakery is tough stuff when you aren’t working with green screen originals.
Czech website asks:
Poll
Who according to you shot down a civilian aircraft over the Ukraine? (Kdo podle vás sestřelil civilní letadlo nad Ukrajinou?)
Prorussian Separtists (Proruští separatisté) 15%
Russian Army (Ruská armáda) 4%
Ukrainian Army (Ukrajinská armáda) 79%
No one, it was an accident (Nikdo, šlo o nehodu) 2%
Respondents (hlasovalo): 12965 lidí
http://www.parlamentnilisty.cz/arena/monitor/Ukrajinske-stihacky-a-napadne-podobne-letadlo-s-Putinem-Nove-zpravy-o-sestreleni-letadla-nad-Ukrajinou-327374
This is a good review of US propaganda over the years. Watch the story of the CIA BS about TWA 800 in the link provided in this article.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/18/facts-needed-on-malaysian-plane-shoot-down/
AGS,
The CIA used to be organized into operatives and old-hand analysts, two totally different jobs and types of people. I’m not talking about the guys in charge, of course, who generally were patrician psychopaths quite comfortable charting the course for Group A based on whatever knowledge they got from Group B. I think the KGB was organized differently — Saker’s talked about it before but I just don’t remember the details. What I do remember is that Putin did not work in a particularly nasty part of the agency. Bush 41 was part of the old Yalie OSS that morphed into the CIA, did some work as an operative (basically organizing other operatives) and then led the whole thing. He never sat at a desk analyzing data and writing reports so whomever could do whatever unless it was summaries of what he’d already done, so I think you really are comparing apples and oranges.
hardcore and anonymous,
I agree it sounds horrifically Conspiratoid, but if anyone you cared about was about to go in there sifting through the wreckage, wouldn’t you want that possibility ruled out first? Given the utter lack of conscience already apparent in one side of this conflict, those precautions strike me as quite prudent.
Anonymous 11:16
Aaah, good thinking! I’d been figuring Carlos was actually a Ukrainian fluent in Spanish. But yeah, somewhere else and plugged into folks still in the belly of the beast makes a whole lot more sense. Thank you!
Anonymous and Old auntie,
That same radar-disappearance act happened in LA-San Diego a short time before it did in Europe. Flights really got messed up and it was attributed, I think, to a “computer malfunction”…
The Saker’s (as usual insightful) analysis (with numerous typos corrected) is now to be seen at
http://www.serendipity.li/the_saker/speculations_about_MH17.htm
Links to this page are welcome.
There’s also the theory that the plane was brought down by a bomb placed aboard in Amsterdam airport, where Mossad apparently has free rein. Their colleagues in Ukraine then ensured the plane was guided to the right position to cause all this suspicion when it exploded.
Malaysia keeps criticising Israel, and it’s planes keep going down.
A comprehensive analysis by Sakar of the known facts and I’m sure that military radar systems have become more sophisticated in 25 years since he was last associated with them.
The US tends to take decisive action when its economic pre-eminence or energy security is under threat. Iraq was invaded because it was going to stop using the US dollar to trade its oil supplies whilst under economic sanctions. Now Russia is looking to join in with the BRICS countries to trade in a currency which will not be the USdollar. This will liberate a lot of much needed credit to developing countries and undermine US neo-colonialism.
The neo-fascist thugs in Ukraine were on the back foot due to the determined but less well equiped separatist militias going on the offensive. There was a real potential for the Ukrainian forces to be humiliated at this point so the deliberate shooting down of a civilian aircraft and its consequences is a setback for Russia and their supporters in eastern Ukraine because the corporate media machine will place the blame on them. This was a disgusting criminal act and given the level of criminality by Israeli Zionists being condoned by the US and the EU right now I wouldn’t be at all surprised if this whole episode was taken from the CIA/NSA dirty bag of tricks. After all, they’ve got form!
Let’s be sure who these dark forces represent – a very small rich and powerful elite, not the vast majority i.e. the working class and its progressive allies. The people of the US will one day rid themselves of the millionaires ‘democracy’ machine and ditch their unwavering support for Israel, Saudi Arabia and Qatar.
@Jan Verheul
Try De Wereld Morgen to write about this kind of news
@ Joke Mizée, 19 July, 2014 15:45
Question: “Can anyone shed some light on how the local authorities are handling the situation in the aftermath of the crash?”
„Alle Sachen der beim Absturz eines malaysischen Passagierjets über der Ukraine ums Leben gekommenen Fluggäste sind unversehrt und befinden sich am Absturzort. Das teilte Michael Bociurkiw, Vertreter der Ukraine-Sondermission der Organisation für Sicherheit und Zusammenarbeit in Europa (OSZE), am Samstag mit.“
http://de.ria.ru/society/20140719/269055679.html
“The belongings of the passengers killed in a Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 crash in eastern Ukraine have been safely preserved, a representative of the special mission of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in Ukraine, Michael Bochurkiv, said Saturday, adding that no distortion by the militia in the region has been noted.”
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140719/191038842/All-Passengers-Belongings-Safe-in-Place-of-Malaysia-Airlines.html
More details in the links.
To Nora: I’m perfectly aware of GHW Bush’s background vis-à-vis Putin — and the differences as such. It’s also quite clear that the circle-jerk happening on this site — making Putin into the Messiah — would strain the credulity of former politburo hacks under Stalin.
So — to summarize — you see NO probative evidence that Russia shot the missile or that Putin can be ruthless when necessary. Okay then.
The hasbara tactics are a REAL turnoff. It tends to drive away honest thinkers — and those with different points of view — and one is left with FSB vs Mossad trolls lobbing lies back and forth. Oh — and CIA/DOS throwing gas on the fire for good measure. Too bad. Good luck with that. Over. Out.
DRUID
Behind the idle day
I pass through light
Holding in my hand
A pure shadow of night.
These strong fingers
Opened many doors
And drew fine lines
Silent though they be
Netting the beams
Resting sweet or even harshly
On human destiny
A shared breach of time
To carry human souls
Beyond a demon’s grasp.
I rest within heavy bone
As blood forges
Fresh hours
A river pouring
Out passion on the slate
Of a scholar.
We live in strength
Hammered by the surface
Of a cramped rowdy street
Times crevice.
We live in air
Visible as gesture and word.
A scholar remembers
Muscles and hands
Lifted weighted surfaces
Of stone and of wood ;
Remembers metal, glass,
Sacred vessels
Stemmed to his palm.
A scholar remembers
The geometry of space
The hollow of a shaft
The presence of absence
Silk or feather in a hand.
Sound became an alphabet
Of designs in sand
Caught as though movement
Passing as a rhythm
Carved at the instant
On a door
As the name of a mind.
I give you the force
Of laughter
Signal of dispair
Laughter benign
A mere token of belief
Yes a token, a merry relic,
Of the lies that destroyed
Life relentlessly
Until today
I, the scholar
Choose to say
Life is now the mercy
Roaring in your veins
Life is now the hazard
That death faces.
jocelyn braddell©
July 19th 2014
AGS,
Come on now, I know you’re upset. Me too: yesterday’s vote on top of that plane crash and the ongoing MSM spew are all seriously hard to take. But we’re all engaged in the process here of sorting out fact from fiction and you’re a valuable voice on what I, for one, see as the right side in the battle. Will the two of us always agree on everything? Name any two people who do!
As I see it right now, the only thing anyone can say for sure about that damned plane is that Kiev had no business letting it fly where it did. There’s a bit more than that to be said about Israel or our Congresscritters voting for that bill but again, the minute we start talking about this effin’ Deep State of ours, we’re on shakier ground simply bc the facts aren’t so clear-cut, or at least we can’t yet get at the right ones.
Please stay; we need you, for real for real! Also, I’d miss you a lot. ;~)
AGS said…19 July, 2014 22:11
You sucked them right into it, didn’t you. I’ve seen the “you hurt my American patriot feelings by being down on Americans” strawman used to hijack discussions 100s of times. No make that 1000s of times. It may work on Americans, but with others, it just gives them more reason to be down on Americans.
I view this sort of whinging as the “patriotic American” version of a similar debate tactic zionists use to attack anti-zionists, IE: they accuse the person of hating Jews. The purpose of either of these versions of the tactic to distract the subject being discussed, put the critic of Americans, or zionists, on the defensive, and turn the discussion into a “yes you are – no I’m not” manurefest.
вот так
hMight be of interest
http://www.rense.com/general96/dutch.html
In a worst-case scenario, and the facts thus far point to a hair’s breadth short of worst case, the MH17 crash on the Ukraine-Russian borderlands could have been the start of a real World War Z. Conversely the shoot-down could have been an act of twisted heroism in a desperate last-minute strike to prevent biological warfare on a global scale.
The Captcha words I found for this page are –
MARTYRS fueldi
a very freaky text.
Game is over: There are too many questions to the Ukrainian authorities about their Buk air defence systems and warplanes in the area of the Malaysia Airlines Boeing-777 jetliner crash in Ukraine, a source in the Russian power structures said on Saturday, July 19.
“Unfortunately, instead of taking concrete measures to investigate the causes of the accident, specifically to ensure the security of evidence, the Ukrainian authorities, primarily the Security Council, are busy concocting all kinds of nonsense and insinuations, putting forth sweeping accusations and unconfirmed leads which are senseless to comment on,” the source said.
He noted that “there are already too many questions” to the Ukrainian authorities “about their Buks and warplanes in the area of the accident”.
“They must begin a large-scale investigation of all activities of the Air Force, the National Guard and other armed structures operating in Ukraine, which are countless and which are subordinated to no one. There are lots of things to investigate there,” the source said.
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/741475
First of all, my condolences to the family and friends of the victims. Tragic, however you slice it.
On the inside I’m speculating as much as anyone and reading just about everything I can find from sources I trust, but this story just keeps getting stranger and stranger, making it really difficult to be sure about anything. I’m waiting for some really incontrovertible info before I wade into the whodunnit and how, as strong as my suspicions are, and as sickening as the instant Russia/rebel-bashing propaganda makes me- which I did mention on Facebook, with a reminder about Iraq WMDs, Assad gas attacks, and a few other gems from MSM within minutes of the first reports.
I will, however, pass along this link- a few more oddities to add to the clusterf*ck of weirdness that surrounds this whole stinking affair. Passports in pristine condition. Screenshot from a flight info website/app showing the flight as “cancelled”. The Veterans Today article someone posted the link to was pretty interesting, also. Anyways, here it is:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/flight-mh17-conjures-mh370-exposing-western-deception-was-it-a-staged-event/5392222?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=flight-mh17-conjures-mh370-exposing-western-deception-was-it-a-staged-event
@Jan Verheul: Goed om u hier te treffen!
I didn´t even know one could be officially banned on Joop.nl!
Their moderation is all over the map, sometimes I get only 10% of (well resourced, and polite) reactions placed. Some people always get away with nasty and racist remarks. But what they hate most is criticism of their moderation policy. (so what you ask is almost impossible)
Perhaps they think you´re a paid agent?
Your short articles always seem reasonable and moderate, but as it is not the ´party line´, I´ve seen people getting very upset about it; perhaps they filed a complaint? For some folks your avatar must have been too controversial.
When too much of my stuff is blocked there, I post less for a while.
Anyway, meet you there in your new incarnation!
´fellow traveller´ Bob Schmitz
UNSC resolution is very quick on this event..280 people killed. Gaza no UNSC resolution 300 people killed?
NATO is a terrorist organization.
NATO is applying mass manipulation, psychological war around the world.
They have a program to destroy Slavic counties, Muslims and black people around the world.
@ Joke Mizée, 19 July, 2014 15:45, Continuation
Question: “Can anyone shed some light on how the local authorities are handling the situation in the aftermath of the crash?”
News allegedly from OSZE:
“TOREZ (Ukraine), July 20 (RIA Novosti) – A refrigerated five-wagon train carrying bodies of the crashed Malaysian airliner passengers has left the east Ukrainian town of Torez and is heading for the Donetsk city, a RIA Novosti correspondent reports. … There are a total of 198 bodies on the train, according to monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation (OSCE) in Europe who inspected the train ahead of the departure. Militia forces were guarding the train.”
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140720/191049670/Train-with-198-Bodies-of-Boeing-Crash-Victims-Leaves-for-Donetsk.html
TOREZ (Ukraine), July 20 (RIA Novosti) – Monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) have arrived at the railway station near the crash site of the downed Malaysia Airlines jet to inspect the train that is due to transport the victims’ bodies to Donetsk
http://en.ria.ru/world/20140720/191049293/OSCE-Monitors-Inspect-Train-with-Bodies-of-MH17-Air-Crash.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICTS_International
Fascinating little detail. Security at Amsterdam airport is run by an *** Israeli*** company ICTS. That company ownes security company Huntleigh USA, that ran ‘security’ at both 9/11 departure airports Neward and Boston-Logan.
ICTS is linked to Shin bet and Mossad.
You can’t make this stuff up.
@Old auntie: Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, if only one observer states there’s been no looting, there’s no way to say this goes for the whole disaster area.
This is all very bad publicity for the separatists, and there’s still no statement from their side as to how and why they’re handling the situation. Yesterday evening some of the Dutch media calmed down and admitted that the rumours about disturbances had remained unconfirmed, but today the whole circus started all over again, with reports that international experts get no access and that no one knows where the bodies have been taken to. A lot of Dutch folks are now convinced that the separatists are the baddies, and that Putin is right behind them.
Thank you Saker for your analysis and most of the comments have been informative and thought provoking in my opinion.
I do think that the informed observation earlier that anything in the Ukraine is just one aspect of a broader war which is raging everywhere. I particularly feel still for the people of Palestine.
Regarding the fate of the airline and who is responsible, I agree that it wouldn’t have happened if there weren’t a war going on, so having commercial flights flying over this war seems kind of foolish.
This is all a game of chess, whoever blunders first is going to unleash all hell on this earth. Practically no one respects the completely unexpected. And very few still seem to fear the potential of a divinity, taking no singular side, relplaced by the arrogance of human control. Very foolish.
It is Obvious that Anglo-America’s Evil Scheme with Ukraine was to have Russia ‘gain’ Ukraine and lose much of Continental Europe, and the Rest of the World.
I will just provide some Websites that are interesting on the Malaysian Passenger Airline Flight MH 17, and they are self explanatory.
There are some Interesting News Items with Videos Titled: What is wrong with these pictures? Malaysia Airlines MH-17 crash site compared to United 93 crash site in Shanksville at http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/what-is-wrong-with-these-pictures.html , and Titled: Ukraine Air Traffic Control routed MH17 through War Zone – not normal route and had them fly lower than they requested at http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/ukraine-air-traffic-control-routed-mh17.html , and Titled: Bombshell! Air Traffic Controller who was in Kiev said it was Ukrainian Military who shot down MH17 – Military Jets shadowing it at http://sherriequestioningall.blogspot.com.au/2014/07/bombshell-air-traffic-controller-in.html .
There are some Websites that have the Information to supplement what I have said in my other comments, and they are at http://www.opednews.com/articles/Establishment-Begins-Build-by-Donn-Marten-Demagoguery_Lies_Media_Propaganda-140718-447.html , and at http://www.opednews.com/articles/What-Happened-to-the-Malay-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-Israel_Malaysian-Plane_Propaganda_Putin-140719-124.html , and at http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2014/07/shootdown-passenger-jet-ukraine-false-flag.html , and at http://www.eturbonews.com/48079/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down- , and at http://beforeitsnews.com/global-unrest/2014/07/the-real-reason-malaysia-airlines-flight-mh17-was-shot-down-over-ukraine-2459924.html , and at http://www.infowars.com/ukraine-air-traffic-controller-suggests-kiev-military-shot-down-passenger-plane/ , and at https://www.google.com.au/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=L0nLU4OzJ8yT8QfO8YHoDA&gws_rd=ssl#q=etn+ukraine+air+traffic+controller+suggests+kiev+military+escorted+shot+down+passenger+plane .
There seems to be a change of thinking by one Anglo-American Journalists, and while the Article tells the Usual Lies, it says that Ukraine should become 2 Countries, and I have no opinion on that, because I am Serbian, and I am a Citizen of another Country at http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/comment/time-for-ukraine-to-divide-20140720-zv19c.html .
I have written several comments that explain the things I briefly mentioned in this comment, and I use the moniker of Moniker, and those comments can be read at the EUobserver Website, and the Mews Item is Titled: EU calls for ‘international investigation’ into Ukraine air crash at http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://euobserver.com/foreign/125031 .
It is Obvious that the Illegitimate Junta in Kiev wanted that Passenger Plane to crash, and that it did all it could to achieve that, and therefore it is Obvious that the Federalists in Eastern Ukraine or Russia are Completely Innocent, and Anglo-America may score an own goal by beginning a Second Cold War, and they may ‘gain’ Ukraine, and loose much of Continental Europe, and the Rest of the World.
To Nora: I have no quarrel with you — nor anyone on this site. I have a lot of respect for Putin. That doesn’t mean I don’t think he’s capable of downing this aircraft. The US is capable of it too. Frankly, the Russians (or Eastern Europeans) on this site make me dizzy with their back and forth on Putin. One minute he’s great and the next he’s a jerk. I’ve been pretty consistent with my views and expectations.
For the record — once again — no one knows who is responsible for downing that plane. I still don’t think it was Kiev (not on its own) or Novorussian resistance (not on their own). Starting to think Israel was behind it. Not that it matters what I think.
Those folks on the ground — removing the remains and the “cargo” should take extreme care. Wouldn’t go near that site without bio-hazard protection.
To Bok Tak: Sorry you think I was co-opting the thread with American patriot “whinging”. I may be one of the few unpaid/nonprofessionals on this site — so I thought it might be of interest to know how an “average” American reacts to constant haranguing about Evil-Anglo-Americans. Sorry. Brings back the old “duck and cover” days. When my kindergarten class had to dive under little desks to hide from Russian missiles whizzing overhead. We ALL have our cross to bear. Eh?
I get that you guys don’t like us very much. I’m pretty disgusted as well. But since I’m speaking to you as a friend — I tend to avoid “friends” who are overbearing and touchy when it comes to their own foibles.
I have fewer and fewer illusions. “…when you’ve robbed a man of everything he’s no longer in your power…” The Sayanim should be VERY worried that folks like me don’t have ALL our illusions shattered. 911.
This might help some people.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-people-believe-conspiracy-theoies/
AGS if you’re still looking at this thread,
This stuff is awful and seems to be getting worse at almost warp speed and I don’t think there’s a non-troll here who doesn’t get eaten alive by it sometimes — how could you not? It’s agonizing any which way. We watch Saker shuttle between his reasoned analyses and intense personal feelings but everybody else here also comes at it from wherever they are and then bounces around some in their own patented way. And we’ve all of us, myself included of course, have got to make a bit more room here, I think, for people expressing their feelings when they need to — as you did, for example — but also try and guide our discussions based on both giving everyone that room while also ensuring that any statements of fact can be backed up. Does that make any sense?
Nora: Facts and Truth are not necessarily one and the same. But I understand your message. And we agree.
I am struggling like everyone else to cope. And grieve for those poor souls caught in the middle of this horror which my former ignorance helped sustain.
You know the story of the widow woman and the empty pots? She was poor and in debt and about to die with her sons. She was told to borrow lots of pots and fill them up using one small pitcher of oil. And she did. I read that story for years thinking how great it was that Elisha got this woman get out of debt! One day I was facing a BIG challenge with one of my children. I began to re-read the story about the widow and the oil. It occurred to me that I was praying about this child as if he were the empty vessel — when in TRUTH he was the oil.
We are the oil. Not empty vessels waiting to be filled. We are pouring-forth TRUTH and blessings for ALL. That’s the work here. It’s the TRUE purpose of this site. We are here as Repairers of the Breach.
@ Joke Mizée, 20 July, 2014 14:26
I also read that “international experts get no access” and I tried to find out who would be refusing their access, at what point and on what grounds / with which excuses. I couldn’t. Obviously none of the accusers deemed their readers fit to be told. It were all passive and quasi-passive constructions of the type “were denied” “could not get access”
I drew my own conclusions from this lack of information, starting from the assumption that if it were the separatists who denied access every headline what have said so. But of course I could be wrong.May-be someone else finds more information.
AGS,
YES! — absolutely, positively, even joyfully if that’s even possible under these circumstances — to Everything. You. Said.
And that lesson about your son is one of the most beautiful and profound I have ever, ever heard. Thank you, deeply, for that gift.
To Nora: You’re a good woman. You’re smart and thoughtful and well-read and interesting. And kind-hearted. And obviously spent a lot of time developing a view.
I have learned through much trial and error to filter and protect the sanctity of my FREETHINKING. I have little tolerance for lies. It’s why I never listen to Obama speeches. I don’t personalize hatred toward him — but I am not taken-in by deceit. Americans had their consciousness stolen years ago. Some of us are only beginning to take it back. So I’m extra sensitive to those who try to manipulate it.
Gosh, I hope VV has a 24-7 phalanx praying for his protection from mental assassins. Daily metaphysical work is key to health and happiness — and these days to survival.
You’re welcome, BTW.
AGS.
Thank you! This is a conversation for the beginning of a long evening over a bottle (or two?) of wine — or tea, if you’re not into it — rather than the tail end of a blog post ;~) but yes to thinking things through and NO MORE LIES. But we didn’t get our consciousness stolen, AGS, we gave it away, all by ourselves, by focusing on other stuff and not paying enough attention. Every last one of us LET ourselves get lulled into swallowing whole one or another line of garbage.
And here we are, at a really crucial point for, dammit, every living being on earth, and we’ve got another presidential election coming up in two short years and Ron Paul is the only American politician who’s spoken out on this and he’s really too old to run. The only one, and every single potential candidate has already signed on long ago to keep doing exactly what we’re seeing right now. So that doesn’t give us a lot of time to get going here. And our biggest problem, really, isn’t even this Left-Right Culture War business, it’s that we are still looking for a leader to guide us through to a better place, rather than determining exactly what we want that place to look like, or what we insist on in anyone we choose to lead us. And abortion, gay rights, etc. are just diversions deliberately chosen by both sides to a) keep us apart; b) keep our focus as far away as possible from what the people running this show are actually doing to us; and c) get out the vote, R or D. Just like all that Buk nonsense, it’s your basic average smokescreen and we fall for it every time!
So yes, radar for manipulation is essential, but equally essential is not putting your trust in someone you *think* is on “your side” — basically bc there aren’t any: no one in Washington now got there by representing We The People, at least on anything that really matters. Also, of course, we’re all human and our leaders are every bit as fallible as we are, and more in some of the precise areas that make them want to go into politics in the first place! And I’m hardly setting myself up as any kind of expert: I’ve gotten pretty good over the years at ruling stuff out, and grasping the major outlines of what’s going on in a “process” rather than just “content” kind of way. But those are the only kind of answers I can come up with too: it’s got to be a group effect, we’ve got to unite, we’ve got to think through and pinpoint exactly what we want (lots of compromise in there, btw, if we’re going to work together, which is the only way we can do it) and we’ve got to examine different ways we can go about getting it. And all that takes time, thought and — this is the voice of bitter experience here — emotional effort bc it really is quite draining to keep getting your hopes dashed when there’s so much at stake and you feel so deeply about all of it. And yeah, I’ve gone through a lot of that over the years and kind of — but only kind of — used to rolling with the punches, getting up and slugging away at it again having hopefully learned a bit from the last time.
But mainly, we’ve just got to roll up our sleeves and get started, and this blog is just a perfect place to do that, I think!
Nora,
I don’t know if this helps but years ago my “other” son (you’ll think I raised little hellions…) did something very naughty — which included sending a rather nasty letter to a child in his class — who had blabbed to other kids something my son shared in confidence. It was a mess. With teachers and parents and everyone involved. One of those times you want to dig a big hole and jump in. Through all the screaming and tears I asked him what in the world was he thinking. His response was “Mom, I trusted him and he betrayed me”. Sigh. That is the sum of where we are today — placing trust in untrustworthy humans.
We’ve relinquished the keys to the kingdom to untrustworthy shits because we’re too consumed by greed and avarice and perversity and laziness. We stopped paying attention because we didn’t think it mattered. Or thought it was in good hands. We forgot the basic rules of husbandry. And we forgot the lessons of self-reliance and sacrifice. Change is coming. Don’t know what it will be — but am preparing myself for a BIG shift.
In terms of elections I don’t need much. I won’t vote for anyone who says, “how will this effect our good friend Israel” or use the term “Judeo-Christian”.
Yes, would love to have a chat sometime. Saker has my permission to share my contact with you.
AGS,
YES to all you said except unless we start getting our act together NOW, there never will be a pol who meets even those limited criteria! That vote didn’t happen by accident: it was a warning to every American politician about who’s really in charge.
But the other thing is, yes, the situation is dire but we’re only helpless if we fall into that trap too, and don’t even try. I sound — and feel — like a broken record here sometimes, but you’ve just got to keep slugging away at it: it’s OUR country, it belongs to ALL of us, not just the creeps sitting on top. And we’ve just got to figure out how to work together at least long enough to fix it, that’s all.
AGS,
I tried; could you pls. re-send him your info? (I think he’s had a bit on his mind lately…)
@ Joke Mizée
I suppose the beginning of the stories about separatist looting the place of the crash can be found in a false twitter report as explained here:
How rebel mourning MH17 victims was turned into looter with trophy
http://rt.com/news/174332-ukraine-plane-photo-perverted/