I have to admit that today’s move by Putin caught me completely off-guard. My first impression was that by asking the folks in the Donbass to postpone the referendum, Putin was basically tossing aside a valuable bargaining chip. Even more disturbing was his apparent backing for the upcoming May 25th presidential election.
Let me also say, however, that the notion of Putin “caving in” never even crossed my mind if only because categories such as “caving in” are simply not applicable in the real world of international politics – they are only good for the taking heads on the Idiot Tube and their zombified audience.
But if Putin was not “caving in” – what in the world was he doing? I submit that what Putin did is give us his reply to yesterday’s quiz. Remember what I wrote?
Let us assume that Russia does not intervene and that, with time and effort, the nationalists regain control of most of the eastern and southern Ukraine. Let is further assume that the referendum wanted by the Russian-speakers is either not held or ignored, while the Presidential election goes ahead and that Poroshenko or Tymoshenko get’s “kind of elected” in a farcical election which, however, the USA and its EU protectorate will immediately recognize as “legitimate”.
This is *exactly* the option chosen by Putin today. To see why, we have to look at this not from Moscow’s perspective, but from Kiev’s perspective. From the point of view of the junta this outcome looks something like this:
“So we have managed to get most of the East and South more or less under control. We have stopped the “terrorist’s” referendum and we got our leader Oligarchenko elected President in an election fully backed the US and Europe. What do we do next?”
This is when things get really interesting for a number of reasons. For one thing, the economy is completely dead and nobody, really nobody, has any idea as to what to do about it. Second the degree of hatred between the western Banderastan and the eastern Donbass is at an all-time high and nobody has any idea as to how to make all these people coexist together. Third, and there are a lot of signs in Kiev and elsewhere that this is already beginning to happen, social unrest triggered by the economic collapse is going to go from bad to worse with each passing week. Fourth, now that the neo-Nazi thugs do not have a “patriotic” job to do anymore – what kind of “activities” will keep them busy next?
There is a well-known experiment in psychology: you put two rats into a cage and you start giving them electrical shocks (though a grid in the cage floor). You know what they do? They immediately attack each other. Pain makes them do that – they strike out at the only enemy they see.
So just imagine the utter chaos which will take place this summer all over the Ukraine.
Now add to that the fact that the Ukraine will desperately need Russian energy for which it is both unable and unwilling to pay.
To me, this picture does not look only bleak, it look apocalyptic.
Now consider the very same picture from the US and EU’s point of view.
First, it is pretty darn obvious that they, the US & EU, “own” the Ukraine (not Russia). They overthrew Yanukovich, they backed the neo-Nazis, they promised wealth and freedom to the Ukrainians if they sign the agreement with the EU and they put their full political weight behind President Oligarchenko and his government. Frankly, their best hope was to blame any and all problems on Russia, its “agents” in the Donbass and Moscow’s support for the “terrorists”. But now that this pretext is gone – whom shall they blame next?
Maybe each other?
I can already hear the outraged comments about how all this is just a cynical rationalization for the fact that “Russia has betrayed the Russian-speakers in the southeast”. So let’s talk about them.
I don’t know about you – but I am personally unimpressed to say the least about the numbers of men who turned up to fight against the junta. Yes, some did and they are fighting hard but, again, this is not South Ossetia by a long shot. I did see small groups of determined men fighting back, but I did not see large hordes of infuriated miners organizing a mass demonstration or, even less so, attacking the junta’s forces. Did you?
So where the hell is everybody? Sitting at home and waiting for the outcome?
Furthermore, and several commentators have pointed this out, it is rather dubious that the resistance leaders have the organizational skills to simultaneously fight the junta and organize a referendum.
Add to this a very real possibility that a non-trivial part of the population is rather lukewarm, undecided or otherwise wishy washy about staying in the Ukraine or not – and you have all the ingredients of an embarrassing PR disaster.
My personal (and highly subjective) feeling is that most folks in the Donbass would prefer to live without a neo-Nazi regime and get their pay in Rubles. But they also want some “Polite Armed Men in Green” to make that happen for them. And that is something Putin has no reason at all to agree to.
When I though about submitting a quiz to you yesterday I had already firmly decided for myself that non-intervention was a much better option for both Russia and the Donbass. But when this evening I heard Putin I was totally caught off-guard and disturbed. It appeared to me that he was giving up important things for nothing and my instinctive knee-jerk reaction was, as always, to suspect the worst. But now that I had time to really think it over, what Putin is doing makes sense. Not only is he choosing the “no intervention” option (which I had expected him to do) – he is pro-actively contributing to that outcome (which I did not expect him to do at all). I had expected Russia to look “firm and stern” and not to yield on anything in order to maximize the uncertainty and anxiety of the US, EU and the freaks in power in Kiev. Also, I had not expected Putin to give the western propaganda machine such an fantastic opportunity to gloat, declare Russia a “paper tiger” and declare victory for Obama. But now that I think about that I find that a very sneaky move: let them gloat today – it will just make their inevitable fall tomorrow even much more painful to cope with.
In chess, this is called a “gambit”. You accept the loss of a piece to win a positional advantage. Except that in chess your opponent has the option to decline the gambit whereas in this case the Empire has to accept it.
I should have known better since Putin had already done exactly that when the USA was about to attack Syria: he “gave up” the entire Syrian chemical weapons arsenal in exchange for a disruption in the AngloZionist Empire’s momentum towards an attack on Syria. At the time his gambit was also greeted by a chorus of “the Russians caved in! they betrayed Assad!” and yet eight months later nobody can deny that Syria is winning the war.
I will tell you honestly that I hate gambits. In chess and in life. And when offered a gambit in chess I usually decline it. To me this is a profoundly counter-intuitive move.
I suspect that Putin must be a much better chess player then I am.
The Saker
I guess Russian non-intervention was what most on this forum suspected would happen. Putin is refusing to play the West’s games. Banderastan’s self-destruction is the desired goal. Once these people have had a few doses of IMF shock therapy, it’s possible even their Nazi street thugs will turn on the regime, paving the way for the return of a more Russian-aligned govt like Yanukovich’s. The downside is that the brave separatists who’ve risked their necks will either have to fight on without overt Russian support, or else back down entirely and face possible arrest & intimidation from the regime’s goons.
There has already been a fair bit of gloating from the online America uber Alles brigade. Phrases like “Russian pussies” & “Putin retreats” popping up a few times on various MSM sites I look up. These same little rodents just days & weeks ago have been telling everyone that Putin was this great tyrant about to resurrect the Soviet Union and invade eastern Europe! I guess this is the only thing about Putin’s “compromise” that annoys me. Long term though it’ll all blow up in the West’s face since they are only using & abusing Ukraine, not actually helping it. Putin still holds all the cards.
I believe you are correct, Saker. Putin has chosen the non-intervention option. He is giving Kiev and the West all the rope they need to hang themselves.
I would not rule out intervention just yet, however. It might be delayed by some time to let other events come to fruition in the coming months.
I believe that by asking for a delay in the referendums, pulling back his troops, and giving quasi-support to the May 25 election, Putin is offering what they call in sports, the ‘feint’, an apparent move to the left when in fact he proposes to go to the right.
He can now claim that he is giving the Ukrainians the space they need to make the changes they claim to want. He has bent to the demands of the West to actively support the May 25 elections (with rational reservations) and to pull back his troops. Now the West can only accept this and the responsibility for any bad things that happen in the future, or make further demands on Russia, making the West look like they really do not want a solution (in the eyes of the world).
In either case Russia looks good. And in either case, the US and Kiev look inept.
In the end East and West Ukraine will be at each other’s throats, and the neo-Nazis will be seen for what they really are – brutal fascists who care nothing for human life. East and West will not be able to come to an agreement.
Much societal pain will ensue with the result that the US and EU will be fighting with each other over the solution to the problem that they created, possibly even causing a serious rift between them as the US continues to blame Russia and the EU begins to realise that it is the US that continues to cause disruption, not Moscow – at that point it is checkmate for Putin..
Just an aside, because it is important:
Putin said he’d withdrawn all troops from the Ukrainian border and they are where they usually are.
NATO said he’d done no such thing.
Cast your minds back to the days of the first military aggression by the Kiev regime in the Eastern Ukraine.
Putin moved his troops to the border – as reported here by Saker – and the Kiev regime stopped their military.
Then Putin moved his troops back.
(And yep, Biden came, and the IMF came, and Kiev then went for full-out war with their own people in Eastern Ukraine.)
So – the NATO cannot ‘see’ any troop withdrawals because they’ve already happened, they’ve been in their usual places for days now.
Just another little point to show how Putin is playing NATO and the Western MSM, never mind Obama and the EU, like a violin.
Were it not for the bloodshed and for the Odessa Dead, I’d be really enjoying this Putin master class!
Inside story: interview with Ukrainian Spetsnaz officer:
http://expert.ru/2014/05/2/bez-prikaza-strelyat-ne-budem/
Basic judo principle: if someone pushes you, you don’t pushes him back, you pull him, and watch him fall.
It is very bright from Poutine. As long as Russia does not see a determined and inconditionnal mind from east Ukraine to take their destiniy in their hands, it would be folly to step in.
Here’s Pepe Escobar’s take on RT:
“So we’re back to the Ukrainian tragedy. Moscow won’t “invade.” What for? The IMF’s structural adjustment will devastate Ukraine more than a war; most Ukrainians may even end up begging Russia for help. Berlin won’t antagonize Moscow. So Washington’s rhetoric of “isolating” Russia is just revealed for what it is: juvenile delinquency.
What’s left for the Empire of Chaos is to pray for chaos to keep spreading across Ukraine, thus sapping Moscow’s energy. And all this because the Washington establishment is absolutely terrified of an emerging power in Eurasia. Not one, but two – Russia and China. Worse: strategically aligned. Worse still: bent on integrating Asia and Europe. So feel free to picture a bunch of Washington angry old men hissing like juvenile delinquents: “I don’t like you. I don’t want to talk to you. I want you to die.”
The referendum on independence will be held in the Donetsk People’s Republic on May 11 as originally planned. This decision was just made by the People’s Council of Donbass.
– “We can guarantee that the referendum will take place in all regular polling places. We have printed over three million ballots. Information that the ballots were destroyed is fake. Everything is going according to schedule without danger. If we were to postpone the referendum for a week, we would have lost the trust of the people. 15-20 minutes ago we were faced with a choice: referendum or war. We choose peace and the just fight for the right to self-determination. The election commissions now employ 15,000 people. The world must understand that when millions of people are threatened, if millions oppose the state, then the state is to blame, not the people.”
http://lifenews.ru/news/132856
I have to note a very interesting sequence of events
1. May, 4 th. Merkel talks to Putin and sends a boy to talk to him.
Sorry for this snobbish tone, but before this week I definitely knew that switzerland has a president, but never cared who it was.
2. May 6th. A scandal with Russian teacher applying to some third-grade Lausanne college plays out.
MID is being openly offensive, which they usually try to avoid.
3. May 7th. The boy arrives and stands mostly as a decoration for another Putin press conference.
3.1. Did you like the boy’s self-restraint while Putin was talking about “every time we have to clean the mess after you”?
3.2. The difference in language: mentioning Gubarev and welcoming his freedom, and not mentioning by name a single member of junta (“those currently in power in Kiev”)
3.3. Again difference in language: “may we ask you to postpone you referendum please” and “we want them to do this, that and that”
Very much was said in those subtle language differences russian language is famous for.
4. Also note how both Putin and Medvedev offered they condolences to families of Odessa massacre victims “we offer our deepest condolences to families and friends”. No mentioning of Kiev power, as if it doesn’t exist.
Peskov puts it clearly here http://itar-tass.com/politika/1163753
5. May 7th. When things are not clear, pay attention to Zhirinovsky. He is extremely smart, very goos professional and would be a great president. His role requires a lot of idiocy, but as an official clown he can say things that officials cannot say or do.
So what does our beloved Zhirik do? He sends his ball-proof car to Lugansk as a gift! And it arrived in less than 24 hours! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tn8mEk6r8I
6. It appears that 2 of radio-location stations of Ukro were destroyed by activists in just 24 hours
http://novosti.donetsk.ua/в-луганской-области-ополченцы-уничто/
So the decision is made, the signs are clear to whoever that has a little of brains. Ukrainians will have to do the job themselves with a little help from some unnamed volunteers (means 90% of Ukrainans and 10% volunteers)
I’ll probably write some thoughts why this situation is different from Crimea, but I need some time do clearly put my thoughts.
thanks for an excellent resource,
нд
This is a dance. Up until a few days ago the dance steps were known and the rhythm was predictable. A few days ago the beat was lost and the partners started stepping on each other’s toes.
What VV has done is to reimpose a rhythm and steps so once again the parties can understand what happens next. But he has changed the dance to one that suits the Russians rather more than the previous number. :)
If the ‘separatists’ (don’t like the term, many of these folks are not after secession) agree to a postponement of the referendum then that can be seen as evidence of Russian control over these people. If they refuse to postpone then Russia will point out and say ‘look we gots no control’!
Moving troops back (probably the invisible ones who have been invisibly in place for a coupe of months) makes clear that Russia is not planning an invasion. Of course they were not planning an invasion, what good reason could there be to do so? Even on ‘humanitarian’ grounds, the net loss of life would be scads greater if the Russians moved in and life would get very messy for the Russian government.
That is not to say that an invasion was not gamed out, not planned out and even set up from a logistics perspective, but not anywhere near the top of a list of options.
The US/EU were planning a trap, they just got pwned. Saker is right, now the responsibility for the mess that is Ukraine is for the US and EU to deal with.
They broke it, they buy it.
At some point Ukraine will awake from the nasty dream and end up doing that which their last, sensible, leader was trying to arrange – an escape from the unsupportable EU scheme and an agreement to work with the group that have hitherto provided the support needed without too many strings and certainly without the costs of the EU pillage agreement.
Maybe Yanukovych will be back, yet again!
Perhaps Putin got an advance copy of the following research:
Despite Concerns about Governance, Ukrainians Want to Remain One Country
Many Leery of Russian Influence, as Putin Gets Boost at Home
A clear majority of Ukrainians agree that their country should remain a single, unified state, according to a pair of new surveys conducted by the Pew Research Center in Ukraine and Russia – after Crimea’s annexation by Russia, but prior to recent violence in Odessa and other cities. The survey in Ukraine also finds a clearly negative reaction to the role Russia is playing in the country. By contrast, the poll in Russia reveals a public that firmly backs Vladimir Putin and Crimea’s secession from Ukraine.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2014/05/08/despite-concerns-about-governance-ukrainians-want-to-remain-one-country/
looks like they just refused (via their kiew puppets). obersturmbannführer parubji announced that the “anti terrorist operation” will continue, refuses to negotiate.
as i said, the regime needs war or it will collapse within a year.
Several years ago in India I was told a story in my history class. The good padre told us this the “story” to liven the class. The story was about the Yalta meeting between Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill. After a hectic meeting, the three leaders were sitting by a pool where there was a single goldfish swimming. All three leaders entereed a wager that whoever caught the gold fish would win war with Germany. Roosevelt jumped into the pool and swam after it , but after a long time failed. Churchill tried to bait the fish and still failed. Finally it was Stalin’s turn. He took the tea cup and began pouring out the water from the pool patiently. It was the Russian Red Army that smashed into Berlin wiping out the Wehrmacht and the SS Waffen on 16 April 1945. The Berlin garrison surrendered on 02 May 1945.
Putin does not have a determinant influence on the events in East and South Ukraine.
The Pew poll showed that the majority of Ukranians see Russia’ interference as negative.
“The Obama administration’s approach to events in Ukraine and the approach favored by the president’s critics are based on the same faulty premise. Both parties assume Russian President Vladimir Putin has firm control of pro-Russian forces in Ukraine. Therefore, the right combination of coercion and threats will convince him to order a retreat.
However, while pro-Russian forces in Ukraine undoubtedly enjoy Putin’s support, it is not clear that these same forces would stand down if Putin gave the order to do so. Worse, any control that Putin does have rapidly diminishes as the violence escalates.
– See more at: http://rare.us/story/dont-assume-putin-could-end-the-bloodshed-in-ukraine/#sthash.H4xPqVLt.dpuf
“Ukraine crisis: Pro-Russia rebel vote to go ahead” (BBC)
Now what are they going to do…?
Sanction Russia?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27320806
I do not see any step back in Putin proposal.
What does he propose:
1) keep the status quo: halt military operations in the east of the country
2) postpone the referendum, not abandon the idea
3) recognize separatists as part of the ukrainian society by allowing them into the negotiations
4) elect a legitimate president in Ukraine: who is going to lose power in this scenario? I think right Sector and Julya are the ones who will be put aside by a legitimate election
Moreover Putin does know that neither indipendence nor federalization have enough popular support to be implemented.
So his move now is to a long term reconquista strategy.
Finally all these comments will remain speculations since both parties (kiev and pro russia) have declared they will keep going on with their plans.
Bottom line Putin results as the only moderate leader in the situation
Because Putin has consistently relied upon sensible dialogue and forthright, logical communication – take another look at Putin’s 2007 Munich speech for example – the momentum for Putin and thus Russia is a global mass appeal advantage over the ‘discordant discourse of dishonesty’, which is the Empire’s ‘modus operandi’.
What Putin represents is one big triumph for humanity: An individual making a huge difference in a positive way, in an age of dominant oligarchic criminal networks, massive amoral institutions and seemingly immutable technocracy and technological ‘imperatives’. Cradled in a disintegrated society, where lies and cruelty had been endemic, Putin emerges as incorruptible, intelligent, capable of learning, and concerned for the people. He leads Russia brilliantly, rebuilds Russia.
Since 2007 Russia has also had the means and time to modernize key elements of its military, while making great social and infrastructural improvements. For the Empire this is unforgivable. The Empire is a totalitarian impulse, and is about destroying successful societies, perversely even its own. See McMurtry’s piece
http://www.globalresearch.ca/global-society-destruction-and-the…/5379275
In Putin imo the global commons has been blessed with a world historical figure of a very special type, not a Napoleon or Stalin or Alexander the Great who make their mark on history with an extreme reliance on the sword, but a tough leader who combines intelligence with decency, and is capable of wisdom. The momentum thanks importantly to Putin is now towards global sanity. What an opportune historical moment, in an age where darkness seemed to be unstoppably descending.
It seems that Kiev junta has decided to croak itself. They rejected Putin’s proposals and f*ck the EU as well. In return, Donetsk confirmed May 11 as a referendum date. Tomorrow is V-Day both in Russia and Ukraine. I think they are not such fools to start fighting on this day. Then, May 10 is a key date for Kiev…
DeepEye
Saker: I don’t know if you can read Spanish, but I am posting here a comment I read in a Spanish blog. I hope it is not what is really happenning in Ukraine (even though I know this kind of situation has taken place several times in history: just remember the the revolution in Germany, Rosa Luxemburg, etc). I would like to hear a comment or two about it:
“Algunos se “sorprenden” de que Rusia no entre o que no mande más refuerzos a Slavyansk o que….
– Y por qué creen que “entienden” la realidad ?
Hasta no hace muchos días resulta que el ejército ukraniano ni mandaba saludos a los maidanes y, de repente, tienes una movilización de recursos concentrada en el este.
Esto tiene varias explicaciones… y a saber cuál es la real:
1) Los maidaneros han conseguido reemplazar los mandos y tomar el control del ejército ukraniano el que, ahora, responde al “gobierno”.
2) El Ejército había fijado como “límite” de su neutralidad que NO hubiera división territorial… y los prorrusos están avanzando a la “independencia” y esa era una raya que el ejército NO estaba dispuesto a aceptar.
3) En realidad YA hubo acuerdo entre Merkel-Obama-Putin y, han decidido que se cambia la constitución a una federal, que no ingresa Ucrania a la OTAN, que Rusia se queda con Crimea y que hay elecciones para un nuevo presidente que se hará cargo de ejecutar estos términos.
Resulta que los PRORRUSOS no se avienen a respetar esto y, Putín, mira para otro lado mientras el ejército ucraniano “limpia” a los revoltosos a fin de que se hagan las elecciones y se deje todo según lo acordado.”
http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/burbuja-inmobiliaria/530336-se-liando-pardisima-ucrania-vii-191.html
Let us suppose that Odessa united the opposition such that a referendum would succeed and the productive half of the UA would break away. The remaining west UA would become a failed state, economically bankrupt and run by an impoverished NATO trained supplied fascist army. Just what the EU needs on its borders. Furthermore they would hold the gas pipes hostage and also default on the debt, bringing down heavily exposed to UA Raiffeisen and Soc Gen banks and maybe Austria/France with them along with the UA govt debt holders.
So the Germans cut a deal with Putin, they remove support from the Junta in exchange for a federal NATO-free UA. Putin cancels the war crimes threat (Nuremberg II anyone?) and the west turns a blind eye while Putin quietly metes out justice for Odessa.
The key: watch what the Germans do next…
I hate to say it, but Kerry and Obama were right when they said that “Kiev” showed restraint (even daring to label it “remarkable”). They “only” killed dozens of people willy-nilly, plus they were rather happy to ship a “sufficient” number of bloodthirsty extremists to Odessa – which they apparently upped by a couple of thousands more, after the little accident there.
Barack “Terror Tuesdays” Obama is comparing Yats’n’Turch’s behavior with his own, and that of American governments in general, and you have to admit that what Y’n’T are doing is showing “remarkable restraint” – in comparison. And because they could have been more brutal.
Why? Because they had to fear Putin. (That is assuming I’m right that they tried NOT to get Russia involved)
That has changed. Putin basically said to the putschists: The country is yours.
From now on, the east will be viciously crushed, maybe besieged for a while first. But they don’t have too much time left until May 25th. And the anti-putschists won’t be able to meaningfully defend themselves. Y’n’T have state resources at their disposal, and CIA, and the US will happy to provide them with everything they need to crush the East – including mercenaries.
Y’n’T don’t need too powerful an army either, although they have more than enough to destroy the poorly armed anti-putschists. They just let the Ukrainian version of the “caravan of death”, which is currently stopping at Odessa, travel around the country, killing all anti-putschists (and whoever happens to be in the way) city by city with the support of the army that blocks everyone from entering or leaving.
That’s not to say that Putin marching in would have been better overall. That’s my bleak view, and it’s only short-term. There were a bunch of good comments regarding the longer term, including Saker’s post.
And after all, Putin has the gas that Europe needs – not to mention oil. OK, it’s an interdependence, but the EU can’t just wean themselves off of Russian gas, and I wonder for how much longer, and for how long swing producer Saudi can meaningfully swing. Because otherwise “it don’t mean a thing”. Putin has the better hand, compared to the EU.
Anyway, let’s see how Y’n’T develop restraint-wise…
Honk
Another piece related to this from Diana Johnstone:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/05/08/to-understand-or-not-to-understand-putin/
Mikhas.
Interesting analysis Saker and good point about the Easterner’s and Southerner’s apathy, but I can feel my natural pessimism kicking in.
Do you think that the Fourth Reich will care one jot about the fate of the Ukrainians. Their conduct so far indicates not, otherwise they wouldn’t have engineered this situation in the first place. Vladimir Putin may well be an expert chess player but what good is it being an expert chess player if the enemy (and Washington has decided already that it is Russia’s enemy. It’s quite clear that the PNAC agenda is Washington’s official, if not admitted to, foreign policy) has military bases and missile “defence” systems on Russia’s border?
Both Russia and the East/South East missed a perfect opportunity by not following Crimea’s example and holding the referenda very early. On February, RT reported:
“An assembly of local deputies in Kharkov, eastern Ukraine have stated their intention to restore “constitutional order” throughout the country, aiming to create an alternative government.
“We, the local authorities of all levels, the Supreme Council of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, Sevastopol region decided to take responsibility for ensuring the constitutional order and the rights of citizens on their territory,” said the resolution approved by more than 3,000 deputies from local councils in the southern and eastern regions of the country – most of whom represent Yanukovich’s Party of Regions and its communist coalition partners.
According to the resolution, local authorities should no longer accept any edicts from Kiev for the time being. Instead, they should resort to self-administration until the crisis is resolved.
Officials also intend to protect arms depots, preventing radical opposition activists from looting and staging the takeover of such venues. Citizens are encouraged to form local militias to protect public order. Local authorities are to fund and support those militias.”
As you have stated, the reaction to that has been massively disappointing.
They could/should have organised referenda there and then to coincide with Crimea’s. On getting a positive (i.e. anti Junta) result, they could then have asked for Russian assistance in organising, training and equipping their self-defence units, and there would have been little that the Fourth Reich or it’s EU Axis “partners” could have done about it. That opportunity has now been lost.
The impression I get is that Putin was caught by surprise by the coup (which seems a real intelligence failure since they already had the recording of the Noodleman [apparently Nuland’s real name] Pyatt conversation, so must have known something was up). Since then he’s seemingly been playing catch-up. Now there can be advantages with adopting a defensive strategy (Kursk being a shining example), but it can also be dangerous to always hand the enemy the initiative. If a defensive posture is adopted, a corresponding counter-attacking strategy must accompany it. Perhaps Putin is planning to make the Ukraine the Fourth Reich’s Stalingrad. We can only hope.
Mindfriedo on 08 May, 2014 09:08 said….
Salamunalaikum
It took me some time to find this:
Here’s the link:
http://www.duas.org/battles.htm
Dearest Mindfriedo,
Salam dear brother,
From the above link which you posted, it gives the definition of Kharjite as “one who rebel against the religion.” This, is wrong definition.
Kharjite means, “went out, foreigner and so forth”. Even in Urdu it means, “foreigner”.
Let us look at the definition given by Prophet Mohammad (saws). According to him, “There always will be people in every time, who will hate his progeny. These people will:
1. have long beards.
2. will have marks on their foreheads from too much worshiping.
3. they will recite the Holy Quran like a bubul but they won’t be able to sallow it (meaning they will fail to understand it).
4. they will wear short dresses for piety.
5. They will go out the religion as fast as the arrow leaving the bow for the hunt.
Thus, they will be outcast from the religion. Today, the Wahhabis are the Kharjites. A very derogatory term for the enemies of the progeny of Prophet Mohammad, like the Wahhabis of today.
The Kharjites of then, attached Imam Ali (as) from the water being at their back. Imam Ali (as) drove them to the water, leaving them no choice. They asked Imam Ali (as) for forgiveness, and he forgave them knowing very well that one day their progeny will become one of the best Muslims. This was Imam Ali (as) habit. The fanatic Sunnis still blame Imam Ali (as) for this, as finding fault with him is always been their favorite past time.
After he forgave them. Those who didn’t repent, become outcasts and they lived at the outskirts of the town. See the irony in it.
The Ibada are almost like Shia in their belief. Remember, they once were loyal followers of Imam Ali (as). They like Shia don’t believe in Caliphate and believe in Imamat. The Shia believe that the Imams are divinely chosen, the Ibada believed as such until they parted, now they believe that Imams are chosen by the believers and if a Imam becomes incapable then he can be removed by the same believers.
Best regards,
Mohamed.
@Saker Dear saker first i have to express my utmost respect and thanks for your very good informed and extended site.
Next I think thsi outcome from Putin excellent. I always had in mind justcontrarely what Yanukovitch did, waiting and acting too late against the Nazi coup and should act totally with invasion like in Hungary 1956, but that should PR technically and human technically desastrous.
My hope for the people of Ukraine is Russia especially Putin as the most smart and strong leader and resistance against tje Jewish_Zionistic power from Wash DC and IsraHel.
p.s. Excuse my english i’m from Holland(btw a total corrupted country by monarchy and Justice and slave of the US/Nata)
@Saker Dear saker first i have to express my utmost respect and thanks for your very good informed and extended site.
Next I think thsi outcome from Putin excellent. I always had in mind justcontrarely what Yanukovitch did, waiting and acting too late against the Nazi coup and should act totally with invasion like in Hungary 1956, but that should PR technically and human technically desastrous.
My hope for the people of Ukraine is Russia especially Putin as the most smart and strong leader and resistance against tje Jewish_Zionistic power from Wash DC and IsraHel.
p.s. Excuse my english i’m from Holland(btw a total corrupted country by monarchy and Justice and slave of the US/Nata)
deepEye
Good link, Mikhas.
I agree with the saker: this is grand chess, and the Russians at very good at it.
On the other hand, those who should be really concerned right now are the Western powers; but they are not seeing the abyss coming ‘cause the long years of corruption have blinded them. They are now a substantial part of It. The same with de masses in the West: they have swallowed the one-sided propaganda in so large quantities that now they are absolutely punched-drunk. They are living in the gloomy limbo of unconsciousness. Sad but hardly new. Europe’s is a foretold (or a retold) tragedy. The danger are not the Russians (they never were). The real danger (das Unheimliche) is inside. The Nihilism that is the essence of the West is surfacing again as the ugly face of Fascism and disintegration. And there are not any lights in sight.
2 quickies:
In chess, when a “gambit which cannot be refused” occurs mid-late game, it often signifies a shift in the games strategic balance. From where I sit, there is now no way out of the endgame for the dear leaders in Kiev.
Vague reports of Odessa perpetrators committing suicide:
“Polite Men in Anything-But-Green” letting them know that their commitment to the cause did not go unnoticed? Keep an eye out for an epidemic of vague suicides.
Erebus
I agree with erebus 15:10 on both counts.
Further, I think that the Odessa massacre may be having an even more unsettling effect on the Kiev Junta than did the Maidan snipers expose. They clearly know exactly what happened and that it was far and away worse than even the initial red arm-banded provocateur false-flag operation that preceded it implies.
There were some seriously vicious people inside Trade Union House – on a par with the depravity of the Syrian liver-eaters in fact and now commonplace in US-backed destablisation operations. There is substantial public-domain evidence that they murdered many more people than the official death toll implies employing systematic, sadistic depravity.
For those with a strong stomach, this site provides a shocking English resume.
The first two video’s (after the horrifying photos) on this page are especially relevant too.
All of this information should be disseminated as widely as possible in the English-speaking world – and elsewhere – because it is emblematic of the pure unadulterated evil that Anglo-US-NATO is prepared to employ to further its agenda.
One last point. I rely to a large extent on Saker’s intepretations for the tactical situation which is becoming impossibly complex and shrouded in the fog of real, if hitherto fairly restrained, war. However, what I am quite certain about is the dogged strategic intent of Anglo-US-NATO. It is to destroy Russia and prevent and rapprochement between Europe – especially Germany – and Russia. That is a given and should never be lost sight of.
Here is an example of the mood of Western Europeans about Russia.
Yesterday , at Eurosong contest in Copenhagen, Denmark, Danish nazi-pigs booed the Russian representatives, sisters Tolmachevy :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AusIj3Hnrhs
So, now we see why Putin is hesitating on Ukraine. But it is useless anyway. They hated Russia even before all of this. Americans killed 1 million people in Iraq, and Danish people love them. Russians still did not kill anybody and they got this treatment.
Something is rotten in the state of Denmark!
@Erebus
Excellent analysis. Sun Tzu = Putin.
@Wikispooks
Great comments and website. I spent some time there yesterday and appreciate the concise and fair presentations.
To your comment that the DPR guys appear to be well-disciplined.
Yes.
@jc
“What’s Putin going to do after the election if the winner invites the US to put military base(s) there?”
Next step is allow NATO put their missiles in the Kremlin’s basement.
Well, well, well, it looks like Putin goes for it all. Sure, he could go and get East now and, with some wrangling likely the South, two. Sure, the US and its NATO puppies would bitch aloud, while being happy to move their missile “defense” system onto banks of Dnieper. (It’s a bit closer to that dreadful and dangerous Iran, isn’t it?)
But, with that move Putin would dilute the Russian factor, Russian influence in the Ukraine that got thinner already, with hacking the Crimea out. With another move like that he will drive a NATO splinter into Russia’s historic entity. That’s not in interest of Russia. Sure that’s what the US has spend $5 billion on to happen, and that what may eventually happen, but Putin gives himself another chance yet, not to give up any part of Ukraine to for US control.
Ideal resolution for Russia is to see as if nothing had happen; just only Ukraine became the federation of regions/ nations, not unlike supersized Switzerland. And still keep the EU into its development, and like Finland, Ukraine must not to be a member of NATO.
The West’s promises of better life, better times to come is tempting, but now Russian blood is spilt and that’s mortal sin. Run on current rage, presidential elections, if played fair, should give Putin the president to crush Yatsis and the Nazi factor. But is there anyone like that, with trust of the people?
In spite of Kazaks’ traditions of cherish bravery, freedom and rebellion, Ukrainians seems to be politically shy. Political participation, democracy is something new there, for all they ever knew was respect of authoritarian khans, tzars, or “comrade” commissars. So, is there leader among Ukrainians? Obviously, Yanukovich is not, for he has not been.
I am surprised no one like Lukashenka of Belarus or Field Marshal Sisi of Egypt had shown up there, yet.
I think Putin still sees chance in united Ukraine. Any president who will implement his federalization of Regions and who may prosecute(for his own good)all directly or indirectly responsible for blood shed of recent months will be his president. Yats under hidden identity will sick refuge in his sister basement in New York and his regime, Sector Nazis and other opportunists for welfare checks in the West will run. The EU and the US then better embrace for new wave of refugees, big one.
If the new president will not be his or no path for Ukrainian Federation seriously pursuit then what should have happen now will happen then. Nothing more to loose. Votes for declaration of independence will be called. New independent Republics declared, immediately seeking protection from mother Russia, what Putin will welcome with brotherly embrace. Sure it will cost him to upgrade these newly acquired Regions, even up to Russia’s standards. But what don’t you do for your “brat”. Germans did it to Ozies; had couple harder years and do not regret the unification, and are better of and stronger now.
Russia would end up with the US missiles in Kiev, but still it’s better then seeing them some 200 miles away form Volgograd.
There is risk however, of loosing current impetus. But, with a few more lives, that can be pumped up again, as the pros from CIA can attest. Loosing one is tragedy, loosing hundreds is statistics. Was it Stalin who used to say that?
@Scan
@jc
“What’s Putin going to do after the election if the winner invites the US to put military base(s) there?”
Next step is allow NATO put their missiles in the Kremlin’s basement.
08 May, 2014 19:10
Nope, not now. Here’s why. Public opinion in Ukraine is against NATO. The legitimate government and the current junta have bot said that NATO is not on the table for Ukraine, although I had understood, maybe incorrectly, that part of the EU association agreement included some form of NATO access.
So, it is unlikely that any government in Ukraine is going to voluntarily go along with NATO and certainly not as one looks eastward in Ukraine.
I reckon the only way that NATO gets on the table is if some group chooses to underwrite the Ukraine economy to such a degree that Ukraine is once again stable. The US can’t afford it. The EU won’t afford it and Russia isn’t going to set things up for NATO so they won’t do it.
Russia’s suggestions in respect of a tripartite rescue package fell upon deaf ears but that is the only way to get the scale of aid needed and, of course if that were to happen, NATO would be off the table.
Right now, Russia is safe from NATO in Ukraine, that policy goal is attained.
Saker is spot on about the inability of NATO to engage Russia in Ukraine, at least not for some time and I’d bet that if signs of such activity grew strong that Russia would roll their tanks westward and pre-empt such moves before they got anywhere.
No, the deal is done. Ukraine is condemned to a generation or more of penury and probably dissolution.
Next move on the chessboard, in Europe at least is, of course, Belarus.
Not to be nitpicking, but the word ´Gambit´ in the title is misspelled as ´gamit´.
Good you recovered from the flu!