Many major developments to report today. First, though I was trying very hard to contain my excitement over the past days, the level of success the Novorussian Armed Forces (NAF) against the Junta Repression Forces (JRF) appears to be absolutely amazing and, should Mariupol fall, which appears to be likely, I would speak of a strategic victory, something which I am normally extremely reluctant to do, especially when speaking to a force which only recently was a volunteer militia force. How could that possibly have happened?
Military situation:
I think that there is a second expression which now can be used without exaggeration: all the signs are that the JRF have reached their breaking point: this is the moment when a military force suddenly and completely collapses, like a damn which blows out under the pressure of water. The JRF is not retreating on one, two or even three directions, it is retreating everywhere (except north of Lugansk). Entire battalions are leaving the front under orders of their battalion commanders and without the approval of the Junta leaders. At least one such battalion commander is already being judged for desertion. The entire Ukie leadership seems to be in a panic mode, especially Iatseniuk and Kolomoiski, while the Nazis are mad as hell at the Poroshenko administration. There are constant rumors of an anti-Poroshenko coup by outraged Nazi nationalists. And then, there are the absolutely staggering Ukrainian losses.
[I have stricken out the following section due to protest by it’s author who accused me of “grossly exaggerating” and “misrepresenting” his figures]
There is one such list which I reader sent me who, according to my reader, was published on Zero Hedge, but I could not find it there. I did find it here though:
Ukrainian forces casualties and losses 2 May – 21 August
Casualties
Total: 32.702
Dead and wounded: 20.274
Prisoner, deserters and missing: 12.418
Destroyed or captured materiel:
I. Aviation
Attack
– 16 Su-25 (one captured 7 July)
Bomber
– 7 Su-24
Fighter
– 2 MiG-29
Recon
– 1 AN-30
– 6 drones
Transport
– 2 AN-26
– 2 IL 76
I.a Helicopters
– 20 attack and transport Mi-24, Mi-17 y Mi-8
II. Ground forces materiel
Tanks Total: 347 ( 68 captured )
– 319 T-64 ( 65 captured )
– 2 T-64 Bulat
– 7 T-72 ( 3 captured )
– 19 T-84-U Oplot
Armored vehicles Total: 602 ( 119 captured )
– 163 BMP Infantry Fighting Vehicle, tracked ( 69 capturados )
– 125 BMD IFV Paratroopers, tracked ( 9 captured )
– 312 BTR Armored Personnel Carrier, wheeled ( 39 captured )
– 2 BRDM Scout Vehicle, wheeled ( 2 captured )
Artillery Total: 180 ( 122 captured pieces )
– 4 SO-203 2S7 “Pion” 203mm
– 5 SAU 2S3 “Acacia” 152mm (1 captured )
– 30 SAU 122 2S1 Gvozdika 122mm ( 25 captured )
– 2 Mortars 2S4 Tyulpan 240mm(2 captured
– 6 Mortars SAU Nona 120mm (6 captured )
– 21 Antiaircraft guns ZU 23-2 ( 18 captured )
– 24 Rocket launcher Grad 122mm ( 24 captured )
– 11 Rocket launcher Uragan 220mm (4 captured )
– 45 howitzer D-30 122mm ( 10 captured )
– 32 mortars82mm ( 32 captured )
Trucks and cars Total: 153 (124 captured )
– 5 Hummer
– Jeep
– 25-66 GaZ
– Staff car
– Mobile crane
– 1 ZIL 131
– 2 KrAZ
– 58 Ural trucks
– 69 Kamaz trucks
– 4 UAZ 469
Last edited by von Junzt; 23 Aug 14 at 07:42.
Now I am not endorsing this list since I don’t even know who made it up or on what basis.
But I will say that it is consistent with. Check out this list and this one (thanks to GM for the link!!). Finally, this list is also consistent with all the footage shown on the various video hosting sites such as YouTube. I will even add that this list is clearly incomplete since it was made before the biggest Ukie losses occurred. But let’s not look at the exact numbers, let’s look at the suggested magnitude. This tells us that:
- 40’000+ Ukrainian soldiers have died.
- 600+ armored vehicles have been lost.
- 200+ artillery pieces have been lost (probably many more in reality).
- Most of the Ukie aviation in flying condition has been lost.
If, as it appears likely, the real number of dead JRF soldiers is anywhere near the 30’000+40’000+ figure, then this is something absolutely unique in modern warfare. There might be an exception to this I have missed, but as far I can know in every single conflict since WWII (and including WWII), civilians have died in far greater numbers than combatants. This is also absolutely true of NAF soldiers who have died in far smaller numbers than Novorussian civilians. So unless these figures are completely off the mark, and I see no reason to believe this, the Junta forces were absolutely massacred in an horrible butchery which cannot completely be explained by the superb fighting skills of the Novorussians: clearly the Junta has used these forces as cannon fodder with not even a modicum of care, nevermind support, for them. Yes, the Novorussians had God, morale, common sense, the Truth, the GRU, history, decency, international law, covert support from Russia and whatever else on their side but that does not explain the mind-boggling casualty figures of the Ukie side.
To me a life is a life, and a Ukie life is no less precious than a Russki life. Yes, I am delighted and relieved that the JRF were defeated and that the horrors which the Novorussians had to live through will possibly end soon. But I feel heartbroken and immensely said for the thousands of innocent Ukrainians who were used by their Junta and sent to die in the process of a criminal operation whose goal was the ethnically cleanse the entire Donbass of its population. And I am proud and happy by the way Russia and the Novorussians have treated the Ukie deserters and POWs. Even the worst ones, the artillery crews, which were shown videos of whom they murdered and of what they destroyed, they were confronted with their victims and sometimes they were ordered to work to rebuilt, as much as can be, the buildings which they had destroyed (some broke down in complete hysterics, by the way). But they were no shot, tortured, mistreated in any way. They received medical attention, they were washed, clothed, fed and eventually sent back home. I consider that treatment another huge moral victory for the Russian Orthodox side whose effects it will take many years to fully access.
The bottom line is this: Poroshenko promised a victory in a matter of weeks and his forces suffered one of the most total defeats in the history of warfare. Can the Ukies rearm? Yes, to some degree. Do they still have huge weapons stores? Yes, but all the (comparatively) better gear has been used by now. Can they still conduct a 4th, 5th and 6th mobilization? Possibly. Though the public mood is ominous at this time. Can the AngloZionists send them instructors, equipment and money? Yes. Will that turn the tide? Probably not. Unless the Ukies have held back and secretly trained a large number of soldiers over the past 3-4 months (like the Novorussians have done in Russia) and unless these soldiers are now ready to be sent in, fully equipped and ready to go, I don’t see the JRF bouncing back for a very long time. But the most likely thing is that this ridiculous “Banderastan” experiment has seriously begun sinking now and that many rats are leaving the ship. Last, but not least, for the very first time some mentally sane voices are being heard on Ukie TV.
For example, I have seen very interesting footage of a Ukie general (possibly retired) who, speaking in Russian, told a press conference that enough people had died and that it was wrong that people born in the same country, having the same culture and the same language (yes, he really said that!) were killing each other. He concluded “we are not only tired of shooting, we are tired of killing”. That kind of talk was never heard only weeks ago on Ukie TV. Sure, that creep Savik Shuster is still inviting Nazis on his 3 hour long weekly program, but I bet you that he has already made his suitcases and has an exist strategy ready (a move to Israel is what I suspect he will do).
NATO summit: the mouse that roared
It’s too early to call this one since it’s not over yet, but so far hot air and a general impression of irrelevance seems to be the only result from this summit. First, the US and the UK have announced more sanctions which makes me wonder about the other countries. Now they say the that US and EU will impose sanctions, but we know that the Czechs and Slovaks have promised to veto any such move. But even if they do, this will be more of the kind of symbolic nonsense like banning Russian banks (who are leaving anyway) or Russian officials (who now see that as a mark of great honor). The goofiest idea came from, what else, the British who want to cut Russia off the SWIFT network. Which makes the Russians wonder how the EU wants to pay for its gas. Oh, and then there is this 10’000 men rapid reaction force whose creation is supposed to terrify the Kremlin. Let me tell you, as a military analyst, that rapid reaction forces are – by definition – not something you can use in a conventional war against a continental power like Russia with large number of men, artillery and armor. That is absolutely laughable. But even better is this: while the US and EU are discussing the creation of this force, Putin has already given the order to DOUBLE the size of the Russian Airborne Forces which, by the way, are superior (in training, equipment and capabilities) to any comparable western force, bar none.
art: Josetxo Ezcurra |
Please understand me right: I am not dismissing NATO at all. As a militarized political organization its capability for malevolence is immense, but this is primary a problem for the EU countries which, at best, are something between a US protectorate or colony, and who have to put up with the ugly consequences of being subservient to this fully US-controlled supra-national enforcement instrument. For Russia the problem is the castrating effect NATO has on EU politicians as shown by the grotesquely stupid move by Francois Hollande to cancel (probably only *delay*) the delivery of the Mistrals to Russia. That kind of nonsense is the real by-product of NATO membership, but that hardly makes NATO a credible military threat.
Speaking of Hollande and his decision to delay the delivery of the Mistrals, the BBC gave some figures of the costs involved for France:
A French diplomat earlier said the contract was suspended until November, and the delay “could cost us 1bn euros”. The deal is worth 1.2bn euros – and Russia is reported to have paid most of it, so breach of contract would mean France having to reimburse that money. In addition, France would be liable for an extra 251m-euro penalty payment, French news website LCI reports.
Of course, the real costs of this debacle is a huge loss of credibility for France and its international image. It’s is all very well to proudly say “la France! la France!” but when you act as a poodle you get treated like one. In the polite world of international diplomacy nobody will say much, but everybody will know that everybody knows. And, of course, none of that hurts Russia one bit. At the most, the full complex of western “sanctions” against Russia are a short-term mild annoyance and a fantastic opportunity to finally tackle some much delayed and most urgently needed reforms. Frankly, I think that these sanctions are a blessing and, apparently, so do most Russians (according to recent opinion polls).
The EU – finally getting a little fed up?
There is no doubt that the EU’s abject subservience to AngloZionists has really hurt European economic and political interests. Not only that, but from an EU point of view, the situation in Banderastan is getting worse and worse and even worse. There are some signs that both the Poroshenko regime and the EU are finally becoming aware that unless they do something really, really, soon things might get much worse. And, exactly as Oleg Tsarev had predicted it, as soon as the NAF scored its first major victories the EU and Poroshenko suddenly became interested in negotiations. And, right on time, Putin offered his peace plan.
Putin’s 7 point peace plan |
As peace plans come, this one is pretty much a no-brainer and contains only rather obvious points. Hardly earth shattering, but still a very good basis, especially when combined with a clear message to the Ukies that Russia is not a part to this conflict and that everything must be negotiated in direct talks with Novorussia. As for the Novorussians, they have already basically agreed to a slightly amended version of the plan. Interestingly, so apparently has Poroshenko. In contrast, Iatseniuk is enraged and apparently wants to built a wall along the Russian border (he really seems off his meds recently). Finally, it appears that Merkel and the OSCE are fully backing the plan, while Fabius is very reluctantly “not opposed”.
Of course, we all know that the Ukies and the EU have broken every single agreement they ever committed to since this war started, but this time there is no doubt left whatsoever about the outcome should no negotiated agreement be reached. And since the Ukies and the EU need this peace plan much more than Russia, they might want to stick to their word this time. Maybe.
An important thing about this plan is that it contains only immediate to short-term elements. There is nothing at all in it about any final status for Novorussia or, for that matter, of the rest of the Ukraine. And this exact how this should be. Why? Because what is important in this plan is not what it says, but what it implies: “you have lost and we can restart this one anytime we want“. Yes, I know, neither the Novorussians nor the Russians have said any such thing, but remember that making threats is not the Russian way. Russians do not promise, they do not threaten – they just act. And if Obama, Cameron or Hollande are too stupid to understand this, Poroshenko (being, as any other Ukie “oligarch”, a Mafia boss) knows that very well. I promise you that there is a deep level of mutual understanding between Putin and Poroshenko which no western leader will ever imagine.
The smile which says it all |
For all the bullshit about nationalism and politics, they are both Russian strongmen, clan bosses, and even if Poroshenko is a tiny little insect in comparison to Putin, they still have that “clan boss” culture in common and that means that Putin has absolutely no need to make any threats to Poroshenko simply because Poroshenko already knows. For example, I heard on Ukie TV that Putin had allegedly told an OSCE official that “if he wanted he could take Kiev in two weeks”. Whether this is true or not (I doubt it – it can be done is less time) is not the point. The point is that this is exactly the kind of “explanations” which Putin does not need to convey to Poroshenko, but that he might need to “clarify reality” to some western diplomat of the “intellectual caliber” of, say, Hollande or Rasmussen.
So are the Europeans waking up? Is the Russian strategy to push a wedge between the EU and the US working? I think that this is too early to tell, but I am becoming cautiously optimistic. The way Merkel immediately endorsed the “Putin plan” might be a sign that at least Germany is starting to seriously feel the heat.
Tomorrow in Minsk?
Tomorrow will be huge. Not only is the NATO summit concluding, but the Ukies are meeting with the Novorussians under the watchful eyes of Russia and Belarus. Apparently topics will range from energy to the peace plan (the EU probably will want guarantees for its gas in exchange for supporting the plan). The biggest threat now is that the AngloZionists and their Nazi allies in the Ukraine will be very very angry if a deal is made. Frankly, Poroshenko is taking a big personal risk, but since his situation is already very precarious, he might have figured that an 11th hour “rebranding” of himself as a “peacemaker” might not be the worst possible outcome, especially if the Germans try hard to protect him. As for the US, it might turn to its time-honored tradition and simply dump Poroshenko. My biggest concern are the bona fide Nazis a la Iarosh, Timoshenko, Iatseniuk or Tiagnibok who will be absolutely outraged at any deal made with Putin. Likewise, the oligarchs like Akhmetov and Kolomoiski (who hate each other) will also be furious, as will Hunter Biden.
art: Josetxo Ezcurra |
The sad fact is that there is a entire clique of Ukrainian Nazis and oligarchs who much rather continue the war against Russia (because this is, of course, what this is really all about!) to the last Ukrainian soldier if need be rather than accepting a deal, especially a very bitter one like the one presented to Kiev right now. Because, let’s be honest here, this will be packaged in all sorts of noble and lofty words, but we are talking about a capitulation and not some kind of meaningful compromise, at least form the Ukie point of view.
What the Ukraine really needs right now is a real process of denazification. There is another “Ukraine” out there, at least potentially if not historically, which could be very different from the Banderastan the AngloZionists have created. Yes, Ukrainian nationalism is the product of centuries of west European machinations and conspiracies, but this does not mean that it has to forever remain hostage of the hateful forces which have created it. For one thing, this conflict has constantly obfuscated the fact that most Ukrainians and most Russians want an independent Ukraine to exist. This will be hard to prove at this point, but I believe that the only region of the ex-Ukraine which really wanted to join Russia was Crimea. The Donbass would have settled for much less. I am absolutely convinced that the stupid Nazis really did it to themselves, that blinded by their rabid hatred of everything Russia or Orthodox they simply could not help act the way they did, because it was “in their nature“. Now it is too late to turn things around, you cannot magically undo that horrible and crazy civil war. But it might be possible to use the reflexion about the causes and results of this outcome to push for a real denazification of the Ukraine. After all, no matter how brainwashed they currently are, most Ukrainians will come to realize that it took the crazy Ukie nationalists only 6 months to completely destroy their country and that all that this sick ideology of hatred and ignorance brought them is poverty, violence, humiliation and death. But I am looking way to far ahead.
Let’s see what tomorrow brings (or not) and then where this might lead us. What is certain is that even if tomorrow brings a vapid and meaningless NATO summit and a peace deal in Minsk, this will be way way way too early to celebrate. At best, it will be one first step in the right direction, but only one step on a long and still very dangerous road.
Stay tuned, I will try to keep you informed the best I can.
Kind regards,
The Saker
“How could that possibly have happened?”
I think the Ukraine army was under political direction to take Donetsk and Lugansk as fast as possible so they mobilised and sent people to the front without giving them time to bed in their units properly.
If true that would mean there’s a lot of blood on the hands of Poroshenko, Yatsenuk and Kolomosoiky and I wouldn’t be surprised if the Ukraine generals were very angry about it.
@Daniel Rich: If the number of wounded and dead hovers around 20K
That is exactly what I am trying to explain: this figure is *WRONG* (vastly UNDER estimated).
The Saker
As a humorous aside regarding the French decision to suspend the Mistral contract deal with Russia…
Not only will Paris have to repay to Russia the 1.2 billion euros already paid for the ships themselves, but a 251 million euro penalty. But the real kicker, France will have to return the deck components THAT WERE PROVIDED BY RUSSIA, namely the ship’s stern and keel. Which means no resale to NATO but rather spending their own resources to dismantle the ship. The remains would only be good for scrap.
Sources:
http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=522650
http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?pg=11&id=533864
http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/724458
Looks like those Russian contract lawyers have been earning their pay.
Mark Sleboda has a less sanguine view:
No, Putin is NOT “winning” in the Ukraine, the US has already done that a long time ago. No matter what happens now the US’s primary geopolitical goal of crippling Russia’s Eurasian Union and preventing the re-regionalization of the post-Soviet space, via excising Ukraine, are met, whether that means an anti-Russian Banderite Ukraine firmly in the West’s geopolitical orbit (Plan A), or a wartorn, split, and economically devastated Ukraine (Plan B), its all good for them. The US certainly doesn’t care about the Ukraine for its own sake, nor its people. They have also successfully driven a huge and potentially long-lasting wedge between Russian-European relations. Win-win for team USA.
Putin lost the Ukraine and worse the minds and historical memory of the Ukrainian nation to the US’s memetic war and Maidan Putsch in Kiev. An evolution of Color Revolution 3.0, or “unconventional warfare” per the US military manuals of the same name, exploiting existing social, ethnic, religious, and political tensions to turn a people against their own government and into a weapon of US foreign policy interests. The West has successfully turned much of the Ukrainian people against Russia perhaps for the long term. Russia is fighting a covert tactical war. The West is fighting a post-Modern memetic one (mixture of aggressive soft and covert power). #WinningHeartsandMinds
Now Putin is doing damage control. He’s winning the aftermath, a rearguard action, tactically (rather skillfully) and salvaging what he can in the areas of the Ukraine still most “Russian” and resistant to US influence. Even if the West-backed regime in Kiev collapses from economic inevitabilities, Nazi-oligarch-neoliberal in-fighting, the domestic unrest as the cost of defeat in the battlefield, or likely a combination of all three, it will still be a very pyrrhic “Victory” for Putin. Strategically, geopolitically, and possibly in the long term, it is a huge defeat for Russia. The Kremlin took its eye off the ball, naïvely trusted (and underestimated) the West as a “partner”, and lost sight of the big picture, a true clash of civilizations. Let’s hope this bitter loss causes some lessons to finally be learned in the Kremlin.
“Longer term, the situation looks worse for Putin. Russia may have already lost the Ukrainian people; as recently as 2011 84% of the population held a favorable view of Russia with only 11% holding a negative one. As of a few months ago, 60% of Ukrainians viewed Russia badly with only 35% having a positive view. Considering that Ukraine is the birthplace of Russian civilization, Putin looks to have lost the PR war [read: memetic war].”
@Nora,
You are right, but take in consideration what Saker said: “it’s not only the Ukraine which needs to become truly Orthodox again, it is also Russia”.
Well, Romania is a most Orthodox country where church attendance is the highest (not only Sundays), people keep fasts, marry in church, have a religious education, do charitable works, shun sodomy. At the same time, it bends over backwards to please EU and NATO and America! It certainly takes much more to bring people back to Orthodoxy.
@ Larchmonter445
Novorossiya…historical experience heralds a unique development in human culture
Should see it in the larger context of Eurasia. This vast tract of land known variously as Scythia, Sarmatia, was a link between the “hellenistic perimeter” which was later Byzantium and Asia. It always was a crucible of various populations.
To refer only to the recent times (since Catherine the Great) the lands of the New Russia were populated with colonists from everywhere under the direction of Prince Grigori Potemkin (1739-1791) – the Russian Empress Catherine the Great granted him the powers of an absolute ruler over the area from 1774.
“In the 19th century Novorossiya was the name of the General Government centered in Odessa, a major port on the north-west coast of the Black Sea. When it was taken from the Ottomans, the region was sparsely populated and home to several ethnic groups, of which the most numerous were Romanians and Ruthenians (Ukrainians)[citation needed]. According to the first Tsarist census of the Yedisan region conducted in 1793, after the expulsion of the Nogai Tatars, 49 villages out of 67 between the Dniester and the Southern Bug were Romanian. East of the Southern Bug, in the so-called New Serbia region, in 1757 the largest ethnic group were Romanians at 75%, followed by Serbs at 12% and 13% others. The Russian authorities commenced a program of colonization of the region when they acquired it, encouraging large migrations into the region, including Romanians from Moldavia, Wallachia and Transylvania, as well as Ukrainians, Russians and Germans; in 1792 the Russian government declared that the region between the Dniester and the Bug was to become a new principality named “New Moldavia”, under Russian suzerainty”. (Wiki)
It is interesting that in the same period, as part of Catherine’s “Greek Project” (the revival of Byzance), she dreamt of creating a new state in the Balkans from the Russian conquest of the Romanian principalities of Moldavia, Walachia, and Bessarabia; the new entity, with proper attention to classical antecedents, was to be called the “Kingdom of Dacia” and was to have Potyomkin as its king of Orthodox religion.
All subsequent troubles in this region originate in those times and explain why countries like Romania are torn apart between East and West, Russia and “Europe”.
The solution would be a new ‘potemkinade’ (putinade?)! But still to suggest that in Romania is to invite lynching!
Proftel:
To learn how the world is, read ZeroHedge.
To learn how the world really is: vineyardsaker.blogspot, paulcraigroberts.org, washingtonsblog.com, moonofalabama.org, redecastorphoto.blogspot among many others.
To learn how the rest of the world is scared shitless read: businessinsider.com and dailymail.co.uk.
hehe
The ceasefire plan may go ahead as planned but I have some worries.
Mainly it’s about the Neocons – they do not give up easily, especially not on a plan, long in the oven. Their goose may be cooked but they still don’t accept the verdict of either logic or logistics. They have probably been looking at more False Flags but those turned out to be a bit tricky to execute, especially after the abject failure of MH17 (well, not a total failure – they got the media after all).
So I am trying to figure out what ploy they might come up with next to torpedo whatever arrangement Poro and Putin and Novorussiya come up with.
My one worry is that wounded empires tend to strike back. No telling exactly where or how. Rational it doesn’t have to be. Potential collateral victims – of no consequence.
My other worry is that there must have been a reason for precipitating this stupid civil war and taking the risk of bating the bear. Hubris is not enough of a reason. Some of the bad guys are not entirely dumb. Whatever that reason, or collection of reasons is, it hasn’t gone away. Something tells me they won’t be able to let go, no matter the consequences.
Something is very wrong somewhere. I sure hope it’s only the stupidity of the ones surrounding the US president, getting him to take leave of his senses. That Putin can take care of. But there’s still this nagging little voice – what if there’s something else entirely, something that makes even smart people behave incredibly stupidly, hurting their own self-interest in the process?
OTOH, it may just be difficult for me to accept that people in positions of influence can be THAT stupid.
There is a certain ‘intelligence’ behind all this.
Russia and China are leading the de-dollarization movement. This amounts to a NEW New World Order. Given the US’s debt situation and penchant for hegemony, this movement constitutes an existential threat to the American way of life. In that sense, Russia and China have declared war on the US by having the audacity to not fall victim to American Exceptionalism.
Ukraine is part of this war, but it doesn’t end with Ukraine. America and its cohorts are complete opportunists and will never give up. How can they? They are all in the same boat.
Take a look at the global debt clock and check the debt to GDP ratios of the US and its allies. It’s ridiculous!! Yet they have the unmitigated gall to think they can shove around 2 large, militarily powerful, solvent countries that don’t want to play with monopoly money. Thus, theBear and the Dragon are both getting poked. It’s an altogether insane proposition, but here we are.
The short of this is that Porky’s in a pickle. He needs to freeze this thing as the more time passes, the more the Ukie losses in territory mount and the weaker his position becomes.
He would probably be happy to follow Putin’s outline for a settlement. As he now knows, the rebels have some terms of their own beyond those of Putin’s plan. To freeze this before more losses amounts to capitulation, which will ruin him in Kiev.
To put it crudely, he’s got a choice between a shit sandwich or a …. shit sandwich.
I don’t know if anyone has commented on this before but a lot of material is going from Hungary to Czech Republic to the Ukrainain Army. http://hungarianspectrum.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/hungary-and-the-russian-ukrainian-crisis/
Also, it is reported here that there are currently 7,000 American Soldiers (supposed mercenaries but likely US Special Forces) who are now in Miskolz and Debrecens in the pre-deployment phase and are in addition to an already deployed 11,000 US “mercenaries”. That helps explain the dead being found who are of African ethnicity. It also helps explain how the Novorussian Army has gotten hold of modernized T-72’s which Ukraine never had and is part of the “evidence” of a Russian invasion. Obviosulsy these are ending up in the Novorussian Army’s hands a war prizes.
Dear Saker
I have enjoyed your article, you give us like minded people hope that the world will not become UNIPOLAR
Regards
Croat and Russophile
It’s looking like the Novorussians wont have to take the war back to Kiev to unravel the ZPC/NWO coup in the Ukraine. The country seems to be at the beginning stages of doing it for them. This I think is the sort of outcome Novorossia and Russia have been working towards, while resisting junta cannon fodder. The hardcore ZPC/NWO stooges in the Ukraine may hold out as massa instructs them to, but if the rest of the people can be inspired to take them down, there wont be much Israel, the USA or the EU can do about it. Such an outcome can work in a more permanent way, rather than “outsiders” coming in to do it.
The main purpose of the ZPC/NWO Ukraine op is to weaken Russia, so they care no more about Ukrainian casualties than they do about Iraqi or Syrian. This is why Ukrainians were thrown to the front to die. The ZPC/NWO goal isn’t the Dombass, but isolating and weakening Russia. In fact, the way the fascists had their proxies go about conquering the Dombass shows they were more interested in drawing Russia directly into Ukrainian territory than they were actually interested in taking over the Dombass. They probably didn’t foresee the people of the Dombass booting their nazi arses out, and expected they could turn the screws tighter and tighter till Russia had no choice but to whack them. Had the junta retaken the Dombass, they would have lost that leverage to draw Russia in.
But now that the ZPC/NWO nazis are obviously losing and ready to break, what the ZPC/NWO does next will probably be what they think will continue the original plan against Russia. What that will be I don’t know. But I’m quite sure the leadership in Novorossia and Russia are aware of, and ready for the next ZPC/NWO moves. They’ve managed to stay one step ahead of the ZPC throughout, despite the occasional bouts of panic felt during the more grim times when it looked like Novorossia was going to be killed.
BTW, one of the strong supporters of the coup junta has apparently changed her mind now that she has been to the Dombass and seen the reality of the war. Ruslana earlier had played concerts for the Ukrainian troops attacking Novorossia. If what she is saying here is summarised accurately, this can have a strong effect on waking up the Ukrainian public towards their rulers.
Руслана: Я ПРОЗРЕЛА побывав на Донбассе! Порошенко нами играет!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEs05PWlzh8
“Ruslana: I saw the LIGHT having visited the Donbass! Poroshenko us playing!
Published on Sep 4, 2014
WATCH TILL THE END!!! A TURNING POINT IN THE CONSCIOUSNESS OF THE UKRAINIAN REVOLUTIONARIES!!!
The spark of all revolutions in Ukraine – Ruslana Lyzhychko after returning from Donbass saw the LIGHT!!!
“There’s a civil war”, “Poroshenko us plays”, “Policy destroy the gene pool of the nation,” “I will tell”, “Zakharchenko (leader DND) heard me”, “the Ukrainian army and militias have learned to negotiate” …”
No English subs, it might be worthwhile to translate this video.
вот так
Warning – some of these images might be shocking
In this video you can
a) see the enormous loss of JRF’s loss of armament and ammo
b) a few examples of burned JRF bodies still next and inside trucks/etc. [around 32 min mark]
I’m sure they’re not part of the official body count.
And I can’t imagine all those vehicles were stationary, immobilized and/or abandoned, so that means indeed quite a lot of dead bodies.
P.S. Colonel Cassad’s site has 0 trakcers
@Mark Sleboda has a less sanguine view: No, Putin is NOT “winning” in the Ukraine
It seems to be much emotional clap-trap here. No matter what the Russians do or don’t do, these parts of the world which fell under the Unia will be anti-Russian. They will never admit that they are in the wrong, that they are traitors to Orthodoxy and they will always project their guilt on the Russian Orthodox. So they are largely irrecoverable. The only way is to make then inoffensive, or at least ineffective.
On another hand the actual events were intended to be a major hit against Russia snatching Ukraine, integrating it in NATO and fanning the flames of war. It failed, be sure of that. No boots on the ground, no NATO, Crimea by-by, soon the rest.
@”Considering that Ukraine is the birthplace of Russian civilization, Putin looks to have lost the PR war [read: memetic war].”
Russia lived for centuries with the birthplace lost and was not affected by the “loss of PR war”.
Thankyou Saker for another most interesting analysis.
It seems clear that there has been a decisive turning point (as you say) as the Junta army and private armies have been essentially defeated and an independent Novorussia in some form, defacto or otherwise, appears to be close to realization. Glory be!
Meanwhile in Western Ukraine the Junta project to ethnically cleanse and then annex the lands of the east by means of ruthless civil war, has been sold to the people as a war of resistance against Russia. This nationalistic mission has cobbled together the oligarchs, various nationalist and fascist elements, and the state forces, into an uneasy alliance of complicit intent under ATO.
The spectacular failure of this project has gone off like a bomb in this camp. The basis for unity of action has disappeared. Added to which is a gaping economic crisis, and the beginnings of active resistance and anger from the population in the western Ukraine who are paying the price of the ATO killing adventure in the blood of their fathers, husbands and sons.
Now we hear reports of punitive battalions and other forces pulling out of the war and proceeding fully armed to Kiev where protests are already underway.
It seems to me that oligarch/nationalist/fascist alliance is likely to rupture and another coup will be on the cards.
On Friday Poroshenko will be out of the country in Minsk I believe attending the negotiations for a ceasefire. If agreement is reached I think we will be witnessing a bloody struggle in Kiev in the aftermath. Where will the regular Ukraine army stand? IMO another coup, probably fascist, is on the cards. Or at least Poroshenko deposed with another shuffle of the narrowing circle of fascists in power.
Of course any agreement on ceasefire may not be worth the paper it is written on and may be intended by Kiev as a ploy to buy time to regroup and deploy NATO weaponry. In any event the war has been a lesson in reality to both the conscripted young men sent as cannon fodder and to their families either mourning or awaiting their return.
A stop to the killing has got to be the objective by any moral compass. The struggle will continue never-the-less and it will fall be to Ukrainian people in the West to awaken to the real cause of their suffering and rise to stop it. No one else can or should do it.
Everything I have heard Putin say to date shows that he understands this very well showing he is a democrat who walks the talk.
“And whence NATO? It will impale itself in futile wars against Islamic jihadists. NATO is a destroyer of cities and third world armies. It is useless for any other military purpose. Europe and the West do not have a state enemy that threatens it. Neither Russia nor China threaten Europe. Islamic jihad is the clear and sole enemy of European civilization.
NATO has failed three times to defeat it. And now comes ISIS taunting them.”
This might be true, and at the same time, it is a dangerous trap.
Islamic Jihad is the fall back option for the English and US-Anglo Halford Mackinder devotees, and they are Southern sector of the continental fault line for breaking the heartland. So never mind Ukraine, it has already served its purpose (and 40k+ deaths have never been an issue for these insane puppeteers).
Europe will face the pseudo-Islamic Jihad which is mobilized by a modern instant violence ideology comparable to the Black Sun of the SS, this time based on the Wahabi heresy. And behind this threat are the Anglo-Saxon death cults which nurished, funded and furnished these uprooted killer squads to gain sufficient strategic depth for their centuries old war against the Eurasian heartland. And should the old island of the world sink in this process, so what. On the other side of the Atlantic, they can stand it.
Does anyone remember a few weeks ago hearing that someone in Kharkov reported seeing Ukrainian tanks being painted in Russian colors.At the time I thought, A.it was propaganda or B.an attack planned on Russia.Now I’m thinking if true.It explains the claims of “Russian tanks invading Ukraine”.A false-flag to blame Russia and stir NATO and the EU for more aid and sanctions.
I am sorry for being stupid. In some of my earlier comments I argued that canon fodder from Eastern Europe would scream in cold trenches in Ukraine.
Boy, I was wrong. Just yesterday I saw two “Smerch” promotional clips and today this video (even trenches do not help…)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=609D3iJKBtQ#t=98
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvntHazo6hE
So to conclude, while ZNN was busy in the past 20 or so years portraying Russians as drunken bears with rusty equipment (and we believed because it was from the west) clearly some clever heads were producing this and many unseen weapons…
poor EE Slavic canon fodder, why didn’t you pay attention on history classes?
semi off topic:
MH17 – don’t we, as potential passengers, have a right to know what [exactly] happened to flight MH17 in order to be able to assess to what kind of dangers we expose ourselves to [if we’re on planes that fly over war zones]?
Any legal experts that [hopefully] visit this blog who can chime in?
What can we do to pry this info loose from the clutches of the disenchanted and dishonest?
Some questions and comments on Mike Sloboda’s rather pessimistic assessment:
Why do he and maybe Alexander Dugin seem to think that the Eurasian civilisational space requires the whole of Ukraine to be included in it? Is it perhaps because of the spiritual value of Kiev as the city of Rus?
Why would it not suffice with a viable Novorussia? The area that’s under rebel control right now would not be viable, so much is for sure. But there is more hope then ever that further advances might change that.
It seems to me that the whole idea of a Eurasian civilisational space was rather weak to begin with if integrating the whole of Ukraine with all its fault lines ever was a requirement.
Somewhat paradoxically, Dugin has been on the record for a long time pointing out that people in Western Ukraine hated Russia. He must have taken that into account in his concept of a Eurasian civilisational space.
What is going on here? Are Sloboda and Dugin diverting? What has Dugin himself to say about the current situation anyway? Very recently there has been a meeting between Dugin and Strelkov under the auspices of the Orthodox Church. Does this mean that a genuinely right-wing, orthodox party may be forming in Russia?
As for the wedge between Russia and Europe, keep in mind to saying that we have in Germany: “Die Zeit heilt alle Wunden.” (Time will heal all scars.) and “Wes’ Brot ich ess des’ Lied ich sing.” (Whose bread I eat is the one whose song I sing.) – If this will settle down at some point of time, a natural process will set in whereby the gravitational pull between Russia’s richness and the Western European economies will assert itself. And the Europeans need the Russian business desperately.
Saker: I agree a life is a life regardless. It is sad but probably lots of the dead were jobbless youngsters with no pespectives used as cannon fodder by the Kolomoskis, Poroshenkos, Yats., etc. And my guess: As usual the main culprits will avoid punishment. If I am correct Kolomoski, Poroshenko, (maybe Yats) have dual passports?
@Larchmonter445 In terms of strategic importance this conflict has three dimensions 1) local i.e Ukie vs Novorussia 2)Regional i.e Russia vs NATO 3) Global i.e US vs Russia/China/Global South.
To win Russia must win on all levels. The US which is defending its global hegemony need win on only any one level to take it all.
What I’m saying is that Russia must not only think in terms of self preservation, it must think of global liberation.
All the US needs in Ukraine is a bleeding ulcer in Russia’s side, then another one in Syria and another one in Belarus and a couple in the central asian ‘stans. The US does not need to stabilize or build any nation (whether Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Ukraine, Libya etc) to win. it needs only to destroy any natiion allied with Russia or China.
To preserve itself Russia must be the shield of the world, upon which imperialism shatters. If Russia seeks only a limited victory in Ukraine, one that preserves Russia itself and the Global status quo; then Russia will be destroyed.
There is a historic opportunity here for Russia (and China, therefore BRICS and SCO acting together) to defeat the global imperialism of the West.
I don’t mean direct confrontation, the West is much too strong to be defeated that way. But rather Russian leadership in challenging NATOs global agenda. This means helping to defend Libya, Iraq,Syria, Palestine, Iran, Argentina, Venezuela, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Eritrea etc.
Russia can only do this with the support of China. Putin must seek the necessary support and begin the work.
Ukraine is just one battle in a global war.
There is always a possibility of blowback when drowning a drowning man, especially if done publicly.
However the drowning is not sufficient in itself since corpses can poison the water supply.
Another excellent analysis, Saker, thank you. I have just read Mark Sleboda, who I find annoying. He likes to come across as the guru, the guy with the big picture we all missed. In fact the opposite of what Slobada predicts can happen. Putin, by always calling his opponents “partners”, has left the door open. He has split Germany in such a way that the industrialists who hold the real power are gaining control over a US/EU/ banking political elite. The same is occurring – to a lesser extent in France for the moment.This is a huge achievement. I am beginning to wonder whose interests Sloboda really represents.
Hello, I am von Junzt aka Zhukov, the author of that list.
Please correct the casualties in your entry, they are 40,000 dead AND wounded ukranians, of those casualties about 1/3 are dead. So I figure about 8,000 Ukrop dead, 2,000 militia dead, and civilian casualties are far over the 10,000 mark but not counting anymore.
“40 thousand dead” is a gross exageration and misrepresentation and since you quote me, I want that to be made clear and corrected.
As for the rest, as far as I can tell, materiel losses are 90% confirmed for artillery and aviation, confirmed in a 20% for armored vehicles, wich is highly significant for statiscal purposes and the total figure is plausible. Casualties are confirmed for prisoners and are consistent and plausible for dead and wounded, please check my other posts in the Armchair General forum where I go more into detail on the subject. They are also consistent with Ukranian defeats in the battlefield, and with inside testimony I got from the Ukranian home front.
I got the original from a thread in military.net forum, it was compiled by a military expert in a Greek magazine, using daily Novorussian reports. As far as I know, it didn’t use alleged hacked Ukranian documents but is consistent with them. It’s also consistent with earlier militia reports published in South Front during the siege of Slavyansk until they stoppped.
I edited the list, organized it better by cathegories, edited out dubious claims (like mercenary casualties) and added some more confirmed losses of equipment.
Aside from Armchair General I post about the war in Ukraine mainly in Spanish economy, politics, news forum under the name Zhukov
Current thread here
http://www.burbuja.info/inmobiliaria/temas-calientes/564927-guerra-ucrania-iii.html
I have been asked by some people to put my daily war reports and analysis into a blog, it just started and besides daily updates, older posts since beginning of the year will be added
http://guerraenucrania.wordpress.com/
I would be honored if you posted a link to my blog in the Spanish version of your site.
“Richard said…
I don’t know if anyone has commented on this before but a lot of material is going from Hungary to Czech Republic to the Ukrainain Army. “
Funny you should say that.My Ex sister in law is Czech and she looks exactly like that zombie eyed woman on ukie TV when shes angry.
great post saker,and the comments too,excellent,thanks all.
XbNB
Damn it Putin, come on and kill the f***ing Petrodollar.
I am sure Europe and especially Germany is playing on two chessboards at the same time, all these leaders need is the right incentive to jump the US controlled EU-ship and hook up old ties with Russia…follow the money.
The US is still occupying Germany and most of Europe, boots on the ground, technology, politics, all media, etc…
Part 1
As contradictory as it might seem,I think Mark Sleboda and Saker are both right.I think Mark is right about pre-coup Ukraine,and Saker on Russia’s reaction to post-coup Ukraine.Russia starting with Yeltsin and then Putin underestimated the West’s plans there.And that’s why this crisis happened.Now Yeltsin,was such a disaster.I really can’t even comment on him.But with Putin I think he had his plate overflowing during that time.And just thought since Ukraine was a Rus nation.He didn’t have to worry.He had Russia to rebuild.The Chechen War to win.Oligarchs to battle.As well as the 5th column to try and control.But since he saw the mess that Yanukovich left because of his weakness.He’s been doing everything to repair it.If I can fault him in that part.It would be still underestimating the malevolence of the West.Russians seem to want to like and deal with the West as friends.And not realize that the West hates and fears them.Its been like that since the 18th Century.
Part 2
Now to the Ukraine crisis.I’ve studied European History,for 30 years.And a great deal of that time was on Eastern Europe and Russia.So I know a great deal about the peoples and cultures of those areas.And this is one hell of a mess.To set the stage a bit.Around 10-15% of the people speak real “Ukrainian” or really “West Russian” dialects as their home language.Another,say 25% speak regular Russian as their home language.The other 60% or so speak a hybrid called Surzhyk,a slang mixture.The reason Ukraine says so many people are Ukrainian speakers is because they call that tongue as Ukrainian as well.The language divide is quite marked on maps.The 8 Oblasts claimed for Novorossia are where most people speak Russian or Surzhyk that is more Russian influenced.The other areas going from West to East are more Russian influenced the further East you go.And more “Ukrainian” the further West you go.Because the far West wasn’t ruled by Russia for long,their ties with Russia are slight.That helps feed the Russophobia of the Bandera supporters today’s neo-nazis.Ever since independence the West Ukraine has claimed they were the real Ukrainians.And tried to remake all Ukraine in their image.Ukraine picked their dialect to build the national language around.Though even today only around 35% of people can speak and write proper “Ukrainian”,while around 85% can Russian.Except for Yanukovich every President has been a Westerner.And they let the Nationalists run wild.Aided by Western money,they restructured the educational system to reflect them as a separate people from Russians.And rehabilitated Bandera and his scum as heroes.That is the single biggest cause of this crisis. Yanukovich was a total crook,though the elected President.Elected by mostly East and South Ukraine,the Russian areas.And he made it legal in those areas to use Russian as a state legal language.Which made the Westerner’s hate him even more.Hence the first thing they did after the coup is try and strip the language rights of Russian away.When Yanukovich backed out of the EU/NATO deal.The West funded the Maidan riots to bring him down.The Maidan was made up of 79% from the West Ukraine and Kiev area,55% alone from the West Ukraine.Only 21% were from the entire South,East,and Crimea.But when the protests weren’t working they got the nationalist neo-nazis to join in and use violence to force him out.That brought on the coup,the loss of Crimea.And the unrest and revolt in the East, and except for the terror of Odessa would have seen the same in the South.That brings us to where we are today.The in-between we all know.
Part 3
It was an early Bolshevik,maybe Lenin,I don’t remember.Who wrote a famous paper called something like “What is to be done”.So what is to be done in Ukraine.We have a Junta in power that except for a few foreign born cabinet ministers,14 out of 20,are from the Western regions of Ukraine.Not a single Eastern or Southern Ukrainian sits there.The ultra-nationalists and neo-nazis control the security services,from the military to the police,to the private death squads.The pro-Russian areas are down to half of 2 Oblasts.And the West, and Ukrainian illegal Junta government outnumbers us in men and equipment in this war.That’s all to the minus side of the ledger.To the positive side.We have some support (I don’t know how much,and for how long) of Russia.Our side are much more committed and skilled fighters.If we only had more of them.We have in the last week or so been going from victory to victory.But still our cities are being shelled and citizens killed.What does our side want.Do we want independence from Ukraine.And if so,where to we want our borders to be.Just the 2 Oblasts we hold part of.Or all of the Russian 8,or even more.Do we want to remain part of Ukraine.And if so,under what conditions.I can’t believe we would go back to Junta rule as it was.Otherwise what was the point of this war and all those deaths.To just accept what we had before.Even if given language rights,was that worth the horror people went through for that.I don’t believe we should accept staying in a Ukraine under this government.It must go,and a restructuring of Ukraine come about.And I see no way for that to happen unless we win the war and defeat the Junta totally.If we can do that we will need to purge the neo-nazis from Ukraine and rebuild the society starting with the educational system.To eliminate the errors and worship of Bandera from it.One more point on that.The change Sleboda mentions in liking for Russia is because of 24/7 hate-Russia propaganda in the Ukrainian media.It has to stop to change that.And the Novorossian 8 Oblasts make up around 45% of Ukraine’s population.Probably 30% are part of the 35% pro-Russians he mentions.So 2 of 3 Novorossians today are still pro-Russian.
Sorry about writing a book.But I’m afraid I’m passionate about hating nazis,and loving Rus peoples.
how greek catholics priests are spreading hatred against russia…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyHePAEoEHM
How to approach a problem of future coexistence of sides in a civil war?
I would like to hear your thoughts about general principle that can be accepted by common people that suffered thru the atrocities of the conflict. Premises are that future conflicts will happen. We have Anglo Zionists to “thank” for that,for now. Solution need to be stable in the long run to lessen the suffering of the people.
Moral and positive one. One to be aspired to. Stable. I am not talking here what is possible now in Ukraine.
In my opinion there are 3 factors involved and 4 possible outcomes to analyse. Union-separation issue and future. Short and long run future of both outcomes of this theoretical new solution. Of course healing is nothing if we do not look how to prevent civil war in the first place. So these things should be considered also. As a related but different subject.
Any kind of union in this climate where outside forces are fomenting trouble is bound to have another civil war. As soon as it is “possible and convenient”. And will be paralysed in the meantime. Some kind of time bomb “peace”. Definitely not stable.
Separation is in some kind of conflict with the international law. Conflict being that lawmakers created laws on conflicting principles. To be exploited in future when the balance of empires shift. That involves the issue of international recognition. Stick and carrot of the powerful.
Human suffering by new borders. Promotion of war criminals into heroes. Economic halt or collapse due to uneven distribution of assets in the sectors involved. Persecutions,false charges…
Excuse to station foreign troops to keep the peace that they destroyed in the first place. And to use them for God knows what.
So,in this climate we can see that human suffering is inevitable. But i hope for the better future. And this question is the one i would like answered as i see it as a road to a better future.
And you Saker and the people on this blog are IMHO, THE people to spearhead the issue.
Richard 06:31
According to this video from 2009, Ukraine has its own variant of the modernized T72 MBT. It doesn’t give a name, but the spec appears to be consistent with the T72 AM Banan – high power engine based on T84 and reactive armor around the turret and skirts.
Tank you Saker for being a snae voice in a steadily more insane world.
I will make this short, as short as possible, and this is just an introduction to the Noevorussians and whatever the outcome will be.
Regarding economy and what you have to consider if you are going to survive as a fresh state.
This goes to the Scots as well.
http://www.webofdebt.com/
Make shure you read it and read it carefully, this is a different type of banking, and lok to Nroth Dakota as an ex that actually works.
I will not trust the Russian oligacs more than other oligacs, since its the workers that will loose either way.
take your land and everything in it to your self.
And I agree on the peace, but must warn you about the Balkanisations, with happeneds to land where the ZioNazis have gined controll, like Syira, Libya an so on.
If you dont cleans the land of NeoNazis and their hendgmen, they will be back, and create terror, untill you once again is kn a civil war.
Do not compromise, then you will eventually be in trubble again.
Give them an ultimatum, leave or die.
ZATO is replacing one pathological lier with a new pathological lier, so from there you will gett nothing, expect nothing, but lies and deseptions.
Otherwise, it was dark for a while, Saker and others, I belive this si the ONLY time for decades that the ZioNazis have acctually loost a batle, so all glory to the people off NR.
You have my deepest respect.
And while we are at this, I am a history freak, hehe, and is it a lng time since you have hadd a real Slackjaw moment, hehe, this will dislocate your jaw.
One of the sites if been taken away and I only gett, a message of 404 and/or its been forbidden.
F… knows why, but when you have read the other one, you will know.
And to give you two short ex. before you read this, the first is that did you know that Norway and northern scandivanvia/nordic lands where Buddistic, loong before the christians came(the vaticane), and why isnt the facts know about Us in the North, the real varangian lands, and the birthplace of Mother Russia is in the White sea, and down to Volga.
http://oldgoths.blogspot.com
They lie about everything.
I could tell you more, but read this sites first.
May the lord continue to enlighten your path, and to gain wisdom.
peace
@ VINEYARDSAKER: said…
@123abc:Saker
Maybe… just maybe? Maybe if Hannibal had marched through straight to Rome, after defeating two Roman armies (2nd punic war), there might not have been a Roman empire at all…
An avalanche usually starts small but can take down everything on its way if it doesn’t stop prematurely on its course, for whatever reason. Never trust a Poroshenko, a Jazeniuk or one of their Western accomplices and do not allow them to regain force with external help. Finish the job! Alexey Mozgovoy is right. Just the opinion of a desk warrior.
to 05 September, 2014 02:43
I agree with you, there wont be a ceasefire, the ceasefire trap must be known to both sides, as it happened before. regrouping could be for both sides. just how trust worthy are The head of the People’s Republic of Donetsk Alexander Zaharchenko and head of the People’s Republic of Lugansk Igor Plotnitskiy. the question is does commander Mozgovoi trust them, I don’t think so and he is doing the fighting, http://novorossia.today/novorossia-news/the-brigade-prizrak-ghost-commander-alex.html
“in my opinion, we are experiencing another attempt, by means of negotiations, to stop the resistance and prevent destruction of the oligarchic power in Ukraine. The fifth column is on move… The power passing from oligarchs to the people, it’s a nightmare for the so-called world community.” I trust him, he is the warrior the others are suits.
@Saker, 9/5/14, 05:03
(@Andrew:)
“Galicia – 45 years with Moscow, 465 with Poland, 150 with Austria
Transcarpathia – 45 years with Moscow, 25 with Slovakia, 1000+/- with Hungary
Volyn – 170 years, 470 with Poland
Vinnitsia/Zhitomir – 220 years with Moscow, 420 with Poland
Kiev/Sumy/Poltava/Kharkov/Kirovohrad – 340 years with Moscow, 300 with Poland
Southern/Eastern Ukraine – 220 years, no Polish time of influence”
Yes, though this is a little bit of an apples and oranges issues since being under, for example, Poland, does not necessarily mean converting to Latin Christianity. The best example of that is Trancarpathia vs Galicia. But what your figures do show is that there was A Ukraine by many Ukraines and that each region has its own history … “
The Carpatho-Russian region, the westernmost part of the-landmass-currently-known-as-Ukraine and known as Transcarpathian Oblast, was forced into the Union with Rome in 1646 but always insisted on being Orthodox in spirit, and dreamed for centuries of being some day part of Russia — as did the Russians of Galicia. This continues until the current year, when the regional representatives (unrecognized of course by Kiev) sent a message of fraternity to Novorussija and a message to President Putin seeking out some accommodation as part of Russia.
The main difference between Galicia and Carpatho-Russia, which provinces border at the Carpathians, is in the utter fierceness of the Austrian (19th century) and German (20th century) attacks on Russian identity as contrasted to the Hungarian kingdom. They were just more successful in destroying historic Russian identity in Galicia, as part of their (Germanic) civilizational task. (But it is still there, even if oppressed and suppressed.)
Interesting note: in 1882 the Austrians held treason trails for many people who had returned from “Greek Catholic” to Orthodox, seen by the government as being a pro-Russian political movement rather than a return to what they always were. The same thing happened in 1913 in Carpatho-Russia. Fortunately the pre-war governments weren’t as bloodthirsty as during World War I and just threw them in prison for converting.
Very few people in America are aware that the very first concentration camps in Europe, predating the Nazis by 25 years, were run by the Austrians against the Russians of Galicia. This province was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, and within weeks of World War I starting, Austria set up concentration camps at Talerhof and Terezin and other places, because they believed that the Russians of Galicia would be antagonistic to being drafted to fight against their brethren in Russia proper. They were “concentration” camps because the Austrians arrested people and “concentrated” them in a camp, (not that they were comparable in scale to Auschwitz). Russians were massacred by the tens of thousands all throughout Galica, and those locals who declared themselves to be some “Ukrainian” nationality were exempt.
This week is the 100th anniversary of the martyrdom death of St. Maksim Sandovich of Galicia, who was executed by the Austrians in camp for refusing to renounce Russian nationality and Orthodoxy, There were very many others. So when we speak of Galicians, we need to remember that they have a Russian past and (many) have been brutalized into forgetting it.
Saker,
Yes. Family history be damned, the place really does belong with Poland. And fenced in to protect everyone else until the people come to their senses and get a new, decent batch of leaders. Kind of like us, now that I think about it. ;~) There are decent people there, of course, just like here — they’ve just got to bestir themselves to rein in the rest.
Crossvader,
Oh. Oh. Oh. My gosh, yes. Decency and compassion may be morally right but doing the right thing is sure no guarantee of practical success, is it. Otoh, in this case, Russia’s Way has had to compete with our deliberate nurturing of not just oligarchs but Bandera and his ilk since, actually, well before Bandera. What’s really going on is, in fact, a true clash of civilizations.
May the best one win — hopefully without the clearly worst one bringing down *any more innocent victims anywhere*, please!
woogs,
Maybe he’s not between the sandwiches — he’s simply the filling? ;~)
I’m still betting he’ll be gone (in Tel Aviv or six feet under) by the end of the month.
The peace plan is a non-starter. In fact nothing has changed. The dying would be slower in the east which might please some but overall, things will start to get heated now. Although Nato has roared but nothing else, does not mean much. This is not like other times when the US had time. Russia trying to make it a soft landing is in vain since it is the last few minutes that really breaks the bone.
Russia believed in the good graces of Germany? For??? Letting them complete the 4th Reich? Russia should have been planning on being attacked by Germany itself, although the US is the one pulling the strings now, GERMANY was the one who started this. After looting EU, the germans are now sitting pretty and they gave Russia some tidbits and waited their time. Once they broke their word and started admitting new Nato members it should have been very clear who the target was. Not saying it is too late now, since the Chinese have been preparing for this day for a while now, far longer than Russia has. Even India has been preparing as well. Russia itself is the least prepared. The US wanted to break Russia without making an effort and it might have been possible if not for Putin. But to say the west is a friend. Well.. It was clear for more than 20 years that it was not.
We are now in the center of the storm so it all looks calm.. And it wont be out of the question that the US would send in the Syria option of tens of thousands of mercenaries. They are slowing putting more and more troops in Iraq. So they will attack Syria and under cover use the mercs to attack the east. This is a certainty. Unless a whole lot of peace keepers are on the ground. OSCE monitors are not worth the pay to speak off just like UN forces dont stop israel from shelling Syrian army position or helping the terrorists. They just shelled another border crossing because the terrorists are trying to take it over. What has this shelling the syrian army going to do to thwart the terrorists trying to take it over?
If anything Russia should not only be on high alert but on a war footing. because after force recon, the real invasion has yet to start.. but it will soon.
Russia being indecisive only means China takes over. It is now certain that Russia will end up in second place and it is only the time that will matter.. Once that happens Russia’s options goes way way down.. If people think China is a paper tiger, they sure are.. They have more patents and papers now higher than the US. They are graduating people on a scale undreamed off before. Soon just their graduates will number higher than the population of the US. Well at least the Chinese dont bully you.. They are not all that much better than the American bosses but the Chinese do consider your culture and sensitivity. While the Americans will tell you to go eat your cake, the Chinese will give you a cup cake to eat. They will demand all the same favors and pay the same but they wont kick you when you are down. Maybe not much off a difference in the end.. But the africans seem to think thats a huge difference..
Ukie war criminal says on camera that Luhansk power station has been mined and if the NAF make a breakthrough, the Ukies will demolish the power plant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zg-1VG4YEU
@Zhukov:“40 thousand dead” is a gross exageration and misrepresentation and since you quote me, I want that to be made clear and corrected.
First, I never said that YOU said that “40 thousand dead”. In fact I quoted your figure exactly as:” Dead and wounded: 20.274″. But more importantly, I also quoted YOUR dates as “2 May – 21 August” and added: “I will even add that this list is clearly incomplete since it was made before the biggest Ukie losses occurred.” On AFTER clearly stating this did I offer 40+ as an ORDER OF MAGNITUDE for the full number of KIA/MIA for the FULL PERIOD OF THE CIVIL WAR INCLUDING THE PERIOD FROM 21 August to today.
Now how you can come up with “gross exaggeration” and “misrepresentation” is simply beyond me. So fuck it, I will simply strikeout the entire section referring to your figures. Serves me well for quoting figures from a source I did not know.
The Saker
And now for a little bit of humor, at least if you’re into Amateur Hour presentations: apparently Obama’s speechwriters visited — and misunderstood — Wikipedia’s entry on Novorossiya. Bc among his other bizarre misstatements in Estonia was another real doozy about Russia wanting to regain territory she lost in the 19th century. Which, perhaps, would refer to the *sale* of Alaska???
In any case, there is a marvelous Tweet halfway down the RT page where Obama is telling Putin, “Give Crimea back to Ukraine!”
And Putin responds, “Give Texas back to Mexico, Alaska back to Russia, and the rest of the territory to the American Indians.”
My name is Nora and right now I endorse this message. ;~) (just kidding — I think)
Someone just wrote an interesting comment about Alexander I in the comments above. Nonetheless I do feel moved to point out that if Alexander had not betrayed Napoleon in the first place (see the Peace of Tilsit viz the European System) then there would have been no Napoleonic invasion.
Moreover there would have been no Russian revolution, no great war and the Russian nobles, as depicted by Tolstoy, would have been free to prance around pretending they were French probably to this day – as is said, “the mills of God…”
Oh and there would have been no Anglo-Zion crisis either.
Napoleon. The Putin of his day.
And now for a little bit of humor, at least if you’re into Amateur Hour presentations: apparently Obama’s speechwriters visited — and misunderstood — Wikipedia’s entry on Novorossiya. Bc among his other bizarre misstatements in Estonia was another real doozy about Russia wanting to regain territory she lost in the 19th century. Which, perhaps, would refer to the *sale* of Alaska???
In any case, there is a marvelous Tweet halfway down the RT page where Obama is telling Putin, “Give Crimea back to Ukraine!”
And Putin responds, “Give Texas back to Mexico, Alaska back to Russia, and the rest of the territory to the American Indians.”
My name is Nora and right now I endorse this message. ;~)
carpatho-russian american,
Thank you! You explained that to Andrew far better than I have the few times I’ve tried. My mother-in-law’s entire family except her parents, who got here before Talerof and Terezin (better known in the West, perhaps, as Theresienstadt), disappeared in that mess. But the Hapsburgs actually started their anti-Russian/you’re-a-different-people propagandizing almost as soon as they got their hands on Galicia; it just took a while for everything to gel.
VladTheFluffy says:
Dear Saker
I’m not quite sure about the numbers there. The list you provided shows:
Dead and wounded: 20.274
Prisoner, deserters and missing: 12.418
which (nearly) adds up to the Casualties Total: 32.702 (my arithmetic makes the sum of dead, wounded and captured, deserted and missing 32,692). If the figures are “normal” casualty rates then there should be 2 wounded for each dead person leading to figures of 6-7,000 dead and 13-14,000 wounded. Still terrible figures from the Ukie army’s p.o.v. but certainly not 30-40,000 dead, which would be catastrophic.
I like that picture of VP and Porko. VP’s expression seems to say “I’m shaking your hand but really it’s your nuts I have here in mine. One wrong move and they’re pancakes. Very, very small ones”. Very telling.
My biggest concern is a “cease fire too early” from Novorussia’s p.o.v. What I fear is the junta and the fourth reich using a cease fire to regroup, replenish and resume. The biggest concern is the fourth reich using a hiatus to introduce a “US – Ukraine friendship bill” in the Capitol Hill whorehouse (in order to allow it to bypass any veto in NATO from a state that doesn’t want the “fr” to start a war in Europe, which is their clear intention) allowing them to station US troops in Ukraine, to be used to “prevent aggression” against the Ukraine in future. In this case, the fourth reich’s objective will be achieved. It will then be able to station its Iskander target practise er “missile defense systems” right on Russia’s border, which Russia cannot tolerate.
To me, the greatest ray of light is mentioned in the video here: http://goo.gl/FiSF8j . Now if the information in this is right, it would not just be a tactical but a geopolitical game-changer. It would also explain the collapse of the Ukie army and Porko’s sudden enthuasism for a cease fire. If the Ukie army does revolt and stage a coup, especially if it does enlist the NAF to help, then that would be game over for the “fr” and the most advantageous result for Novorussia. Given the relations between the Ukie army and the punitive national guard forces, there’s a good possibility that the army would cleanse the Banderonazis too. Hopefully it will extend to the oligarchs also. That would be a basis for a permanent solution to the “fr” using the Ukraine as a tool to attack Russia. And it would provide the opportunity for the whole truth to be revealed: the “fr”’s involvement in the junta’s coup and installation; the truth about the “Maidan snipers”; who ordered the Odessa massacre; who was involved in the planning of the ethnic cleansing of Novorussia; who ordered the mass murder of MH17. That’s what I want for Christmas, no before Christmas, right now before the poisonous slime of the “fr” can respond to the situation.
Bookwriter,
Thanks for the novella. I am still unclear on how Russia messed things up so badly. There was the earlier color revolution, and another one was quite possible. So why did Russia make almost no effort to have influence in the country in media, education, and culture? Also, how could the Kremlin fail to notice the rise of paramilitaries and not start some pro-Russian groups? The only groups in Novorossiya seem to have been the Akhmetov Patriotic League or some other oligarch’s employees.
It was obvious to one and all that the Ukraine was Russia’s most vulnerable point, so this whole approach seems a bit strange. Perhaps Putin just wanted to leave things in the hands of a few oligarchs that he likes, and they said that things were fine. There is a quote going around supposedly from a top guy in Syria who said something along the lines of “We expected something like the troubles back in the 1980’s. Boy did we underestimate the West.”
Saker,
I think Zhukov is referring to:
This tells us that:
40’000+ Ukrainian soldiers have died.
And he means well and no disrespect.
I think you need some sleep.
re: Dugin/Sleboda
The point is probably not Galicia, which was against Russia no matter what. The point is more that the Kremlin’s poor policies have given the US the opportunity to blow up the Ukraine, if not physically, then economically. The other point is that the percentage of people inside the Ukraine with a negative or strongly negative view is likely much higher than it would have been if Russia had played her cards differently.
A future Eurasian Customs Union member for the Ukraine might now be smaller than it could have been, and the Ukraine might be a basket case burden for many years. As Alexei Pushkov roughly said “Russia put $200billion into the Ukraine and the US put $5billion. We have to consider who got more bang for the buck.”
@EVERYBODY:
Okay, let me try to make something quite clear: MY ESTIMATE OF 30’000-40’000 KIA/MIA IS MY OWN WHOLLY PERSONAL *GUESS*. IT IS NOT, REPEAT, *NOT* BASED ON ANY OTHER FIGURE QUOTED BY ME OR ANYBODY ELSE!!!
(now if that is not clear enough I am giving up)
The reason behind me guess are the number of officially announced. Andrew in his comment above provides this:
The Ukrainian Army numbered around 60,000 at the start of this fiasco, with the 1st and 17th Tank Brigades, 25th, 79th, and 95th Airborne Brigades and 80th Airborne Battalion, 24th, 28th, 30th, 51st, 72nd, 92nd, 93rd, and 128th Mechanized Brigades, the 19th Rocket Brigade, and the 11th, 26thm and 55th Artillery Brigades, and the 3rd and 8th Spetsnasz Regiments. The only mostly intact units are the 17th and 92nd, which were not yet comitted to the fight, and the Rocket and Artillery Brigades which don’t go near the frontlines. If you can point to where the remaining units are functioning in full complement on the front, everyone would feel enlightened. We’ve seen brigades go into cauldrons and come out with half the strength of a battalion. Additionally, Kiev committed Interior Ministry National Guard and Border Guard and volunteer Battallion troops to the fight in strength of 10’s of thousands. Remember that in total Kiev is on its 3rd mobilization of manpower.
So I personally believe that figures under 30k are EXTREMELY UNLIKELY TO BE TRUE and that the real result is over 40k. Also, it is well know that the Junta systematically inflates the number of KIA and prefers to speak of MIA or ever desertions.
HTH,
The Saker
Hello I am Zhukov again.
Don’t know why you got so angry. I am puzzled. I only asked you to correct the common mistake of equating “casualties” with “dead”, I went into considerable detail to explain why those estimates are credible and accurate. Seems Novorussian militia reports are accurate after all.
There haven’t been 40 thousand dead in this conflict even if we add the numbers of combatants of both sides and civilians.
You just had to fix that word, and say “casualties” or “dead and wounded”, “40 thousand ukranian dead” is an exageration, actual number is probably around 8,000. By the way, RIA Novosti just published today official Ukranian officer casualties and are consistent with my calculations and those lists.
That’s all.English is not my primary language. I didn’t mean to be rude. If you don’t believe the numbers, you can go through my postings and follow the logic. If you can do a better job at compiling this info, you are welcome to try, I sincerely would love to get more accurate an up to date figures
In fact I was very pleased by being quoted in your blog, wich I read with interest, and just wanted to be helpful. Shocked at your reaction.
Anyway, regards.
Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday signed a decree to award the late Rossiya Segodnya photographer Andrei Stenin with an Order of Bravery posthumously, the Kremlin said on its website.
Stenin will be buried at Troyekurovskoye Cemetery in Moscow at a plot not far from journalists Igor Kornelyuk, Anton Voloshin and Anatoly Klyan, who were also killed in Ukraine.
This is what Nazi’s do! They kill those trying to tell the truth. It is also when I started to open my eyes. Why would I believe anything anyone puts out if they on the other hand is killing those who are showing us what is happening on the ground.
VINEYARDSAKER: said…05 September, 2014 00:52
@123abc:Saker, I realize that mine is a cynical question, but I think it’s still pertinent. Does/should NAF want a ceasefire?
“Yes. For two reasons”
There appears to be two questions but one answer with reasons in corroboration, which may or may not be designed to answer the should NAF want a ceasefire question.
Is it your contention that these reasons are also in corroboration to answer the do question?
Saker: any chance the Russian team could provide us with a transcript or subtitling of this video?
http://cassad-eng.livejournal.com/82933.html
This map and notations may be helpful to understanding the conversations regarding the Ukrainian regions and histories and peoples.
Ukraine Lands
How is this de-nazification supposed to be carried out? I don’t think it can. It is the result of a very long process, and had been fostered by the US for the last 70 years.
Western Ukraine cannot be de-nazified. I simply don’t see how, short of a massive ethic cleansing campaign which would turn people even more against Russia.
The best long-term outcome from Russia’s point of view is an independent Novorossia that includes the coast all the way to Odessa.
About numbers.. over 10,000 were missing from the first cauldron.. What ever makes anyone think these guys just did not run away? With almost a million ukies now living in tents in russia, it would not be all that difficult for them to change cloths and go live with those people. Its what the Iraqi’s did as well. Only those who surrendered ended up with the NAF and passed onto the Russian border service. But we do know for a fact that a lot of them run away when ever they can. The nazi’s cant catch or kill everyone who does run. That kind of numbers just dont disappear and we saw it required quite a feat to make that kind of numbers disappear by the nazi’s or the soviets. Let alone disappearing without anyone knowing..
In fact if you look at the reports from WW2 battles, more people disappeared than were recorded dead or captured. And both sides were actively looking for deserters there. Yet a vast number managed to leave the battle field. A lot of them died and nothing was left of them to show it. And quite a few changed sides as well. When 10K disappeared I would say 5K ran to russia, 2K changed sides and 1K died.. 2K are still ramboing somewhere in the forests and will show up sooner or later.
Zhukov again.
Again, I agree with your estimate, as the list is not updated and doesn’t take into account the 10,000 troops encircled in various pockets after the Novorussia offensive, I only requested you to edit your sentence:
40’000+ Ukrainian soldiers have died.
and change it to “dead and wounded”. It’s a typo but it can give a misleading impression to people unfamiliar with warfare and will be dismissed out of hand by those that know, affecting the credibility of my postings
There haven’t been 40 thousand dead in Ukraine even adding up both sides losses and civilian victims.
Just wanted to help, can’t you see now where you made a mistake? I made mistakes too, some of the numbers don’t add up because I updated the original list and despite all the checking, some minor discrepancy may exist, as pointed out by a reader.
Didn’t want to be rude, but you are. Please edit your entry again, if it is not too much to ask.
Have a nice weekend.
Anonymous said …@ 05 September, 2014 01:02
” Formerly invincible soldiers are vulnerable again. When U.S. soldiers in Iraq or Vietnam and the Soviets in Afghanistan, they brought in the air support and punished the villagers.”
If you take a walk in Washington past the monument or know anything of the zinky boys you will probably see your contention of invincibility is sorely misplaced.
Perhaps they were so invincible they lost all of the campaigns you cite.
As to the villagers in all of the theatres you cite, the kill ratio likely increased, in Vietnam helped by other factors such as the Phoenix program,and the resolve/resentment increased more to the detriment of the ones with “air power”
@Anonymous: I think you need some sleep. Always!
But even more than that, it appears that I need to preface each post of mine with this:
http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com/2014/08/small-note-please-read-what-is-actually.html
Because, apparently, some folks just can’t seem to get used to the idea that all I actually wrote is, well, what I actually wrote.
Frankly, moderating has turned into such a frustrating experience for me that I can’t wait for the new server and the help of my pre-moderators. I just don’t have the kind of patience to constantly put up with strawman accusations followed by rudely formulated demands. Maybe it’s generational. Maybe it’s cultural. Maybe it’s just me. But I sure am fed up with it all.
The Saker
“especially when speaking to a force which only recently was a volunteer militia force. How could that possibly have happened?”
Earlier the Saker spoke of kill rates of 1:140
There can only be one reasonable explanation: the covert Russian support was much bigger than previously thought.
Kind regards,
Dutch
Saker, we appreciate all you’re doing. For all the frustration and the long hours, you are making a difference in how the world sees Novorussia and Ukraine, and I hope that helps to lessen the burden somewhat. Peace be with you.
@Zhukov: look up “gross exageration and misrepresentation” and you might see that your accusation of my distorting your figures was completely wrong: I quoted your figures in toto with not a single change. Then I presented my OWN conclusions. Separately. Clearly identified as my own. And, besides your figures, I provided two more sources. How you could have missed that is beyond me, but either way, I did strike out the “offending” part and now I am done with it.
The Saker
Anonymous @
05 September, 2014 01:03
To some a house paper of metro-intellectuals like LRB may appear artful in propaganda, but the article shows a very prevalent attitude to the great unwashed, even using the criteria that the metro-intellectuals deem important subsumbed within a set that might be deemed cultured.
These apparently bear a striking resemblance to the criteria they use to prop up their own significance, usefulness, entitlement and role in “society”.
Since some feel threatened some need to emphasise their uses more vociferously in present circumstances – a bit like the MSM in fact.
This attitude is not restricted to those in Donetsk but also to the great unwashed of Liverpool, Manchester; even those within the M25 not blessed with escape from chavery.
Most intellectuals bleat in a fight, try not to be surprised.
Paul2 asked why Russia did not start pro-Russian groups in Ukraine and Russia put in $200 billion and the US put in $5 billion. Who got more bang for the bucks ?
But the rebels in SE Ukraine are the pro-Russian groups. They want to return to Russia !! And Russia may have considered that $200 billion is sufficient to attract good brotherly relations with Ukraine.
Who got more bang for the bucks ? It is very easy to destroy and very difficult to construct and build. Russia was constructive and the US was destructive.
Eg Within less than 6 months US destroyed Iraq which took centuries to built. That is the nature of the US…destructive.
JohnM said…@ 05 September, 2014 00:10
“The transition to whatever comes next is seemingly a glacial process.”
I suggest an avalanche can seem like a glacier until it moves and interacts with the environment in lateral process.
VINEYARDSAKER said:
“What is certain is that there is a fundamental civilizational incompatibility between the Papacy and Orthodoxy.”
Someday, when the world’s crises calm down to the the point where you can write about it, I would be very interested in your views as to why they are incompatible. If we can leave ancient history behind, Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy seem to have many more agreements than differences. They share the same Gospels, old & new testaments, and the Nicene creed. The only differences that I can see are in form, which to me are fairly superficial. What am I missing?
“It is still difficult for me to digest the fact that a publication such as the London Review of Books would actually publish something like this.”
I second that! I am a devoted reader of the LRB but have been really turned off—and surprised—by their coverage of the Ukraine situation. Not only Keith Gessen but also James Meek. On May 5 I wrote to the LRB as follows:
Dear Madams and Sirs:
The coverage I have seen so far on Ukraine has been laughable.
An embarrassment.
I speak of Meek and Gessen.
Please send a grownup to cover this, by which I mean some who actually knows something about the subject, speaks at least one of the relevant languages, and is not flying by the seat of his pants with person-on-the-street interviews. Sheesh.
The LRB responded:
07:11 AM 5/6/2014, you wrote:
Dear Katherine —:
********************
I am giving up on trying to post this exchange with the LRB about their Ukraine coverage, as I keep getting the message about too many characters. I have reduced and reduced the size and repeatedly done a character count, but my post is still rejected, so, gotta go now!
Katherine
Part 2
To which I responded:
Dear LRB:
Thanks for responding to my email.
This note is not intended for publication. Not that you would assume that it would be view as such, but just to make that clear.
Meek’s coverage seems to start from a basic premise as to who is the “aggressor” in this situation.
Gessen did not appear to bring any relevant background knowledge to his report and, as I said, seems to be relying on person-on=the-street interviews. Being born in Moscow doesn’t give one special powers. He doesn’t seem to speak the language. But it might give one a very particular mind-set—depending on the circumstances. Same goes for Meek. What period did he cover? His experiences at t hat time could determine his parameters or even limit his viewpoint. Very litte info is provided about Gessen in your author profile on the TOC page. I am not particularly impressed by N+1 (as background info.)
They both appear to discount as propaganda or irrational fears or Putin orchestrations input that doesn’t support their p.o.v.
Even within the MSM—certainly within the American and European public—there is increasing questioning of the framing of this situation as resulting from Putin’s aggressions, etc.
But both of your correspondents appear to accept the conventional framing. I really expected more of the LRB. Regardless of their resumes, Meek’s and Gessen’s stories and diaries basically rubber-stamp current conventional views in teh West, or premised on them, in a veiled fashion. I expect the LRB to provide a counterweight to the received analysis in the USA, as you did when you published John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt’s piece on the Israel Lobby.
Why not ask Stephen Cohen and/or John Mearsheimer to write an analysis that focuses on us and our premises, not on them and theirs (which in any case are accorded no validity)? I recently saw an excellent edtion of Crosstalk that featured thoughtful comments by both of these men. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9674pRBm6g
People can rail all they want about the imagined transgressions of others. The only transgressions we can do anything about, really, are out own. First, we have to understand them.
I also felt that the emphasis on the history of the Tartars was unbalanced. What about including other very relevant, perhaps more relevant, historical background? The choice of the Tartar emphasis seemed to driven more by ideology than need to actually understand what is going on, and why. One certainly cannot understand recent events without uttering the names Nuland and Tymoshenko.
FYI I—just in case someone there would be interested—see the piece below. I was written and sent to me by a Russian [publishing] colleague . . .[I am deleting info about this individual]]. . . .(Putin’s much talked of “raising prices” is just one example of disinformation, IMO.)
Here is the piece, sent to be by [name deleted]. Also not intended for publication, just FYI. I hope I needn’t point out that the recent event in Odessa could remind many people of an earlier “alive roasting.”
Yours truly, Katherine —-,
LRB part 4
[Part 3 was the actual piece written by my colleague.]
I had no further response from the LRB. It is hard for me to grasp how they can be relying on the likes of Keith Gessen for commentary on Ukraine. The LRB was the only publication that had the cojones to publish Mearsheimer and Walt’s long expose on AIPAC. Now they stoop to giving this Gessen a platform and allowing him to be their “Ukraine presence”??? His only qualification seems to be that he speaks Russian and comes from a somewhat prominent family. I noticed that there were no letters to the editor in response the Meek and Gessen pieces (at least I checked and don’t recall seeing any). This also surprised me. I wonder whether this means that the LRB’s readership was not that engaged with the issue, or whether, like even amny intellectual elites in this couintry, they just do not “get” what is going on?
Regarding the LRB’s Ukraine coverage and commentary, color me mystified.
Katherine
Apologies for length of this post, but these emails etc. might interest other LRB readers on this blog. And, herein is an email address for others who might like to express themselves to the LRB editors.
Hi Saker,
Is following the post at Zero Hedge that you mised?
Greetings! And many thanks for your updates on the Southeastern Ukraine.
Me, a frequent ZH reader :-)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Posted by “ThirdWorldDude” (Sep 04) at http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-04/battle-strategic-mariupol-begins-nato-vows-do-whatever-it-takes#comment-5179454
Here’s a complete and updated list of ZATO/ Ukie losses between May 2nd and August 21st:
Casualties
Total: 32.702
Dead and wounded: 20.274
Prisoner, deserters and missing: 12.418
Destroyed or captured material:
I. Aviation
Attack
– 16 Su-25 (one captured 7 July)
Bomber
– 7 Su-24
Fighter
– 2 MiG-29
Recon
– 1 AN-30
– 6 drones
Transport
– 2 AN-26
– 2 IL 76
I.a Helicopters
– 20 attack and transport Mi-24, Mi-17 y Mi-8
II. Ground forces materiel
Tanks Total: 347 ( 68 captured )
– 319 T-64 ( 65 captured )
– 2 T-64 Bulat
– 7 T-72 ( 3 captured )
– 19 T-84-U Oplot
Armored vehicles Total: 602 ( 119 captured )
– 163 BMP Infantry Fighting Vehicle, tracked ( 69 capturados )
– 125 BMD IFV Paratroopers, tracked ( 9 captured )
– 312 BTR Armored Personnel Carrier, wheeled ( 39 captured )
– 2 BRDM Scout Vehicle, wheeled ( 2 captured )
Artillery Total: 180 ( 122 captured pieces )
– 4 SO-203 2S7 “Pion” 203mm
– 5 SAU 2S3 “Acacia” 152mm (1 captured )
– 30 SAU 122 2S1 Gvozdika 122mm ( 25 captured )
– 2 Mortars 2S4 Tyulpan 240mm(2 captured
– 6 Mortars SAU Nona 120mm (6 captured )
– 21 Antiaircraft guns ZU 23-2 ( 18 captured )
– 24 Rocket launcher Grad 122mm ( 24 captured )
– 11 Rocket launcher Uragan 220mm (4 captured )
– 45 howitzer D-30 122mm ( 10 captured )
– 32 mortars82mm ( 32 captured )
Trucks and cars Total: 153 (124 captured )
– 5 Hummer
– Jeep
– 25-66 GaZ
– Staff car
– Mobile crane
– 1 ZIL 131
– 2 KrAZ
– 58 Ural trucks
– 69 Kamaz trucks
– 4 UAZ 469
@Paul II
I can give you my guess.I think that there are several reasons to put together for the answer.The culture and family ties are so strong that he didn’t think he needed to convince the public that they are Rus (maybe Galicians,but he didn’t care about them).During the old days the KGB was active at checking for dissent.But they worked from ideology.The FSB,I don’t know.If they are like most today its money driven.And they may not have given the Ukraine enough notice.I mean really,who thought a few years ago this crisis would come about.A Rus people turning into Rus haters.The ultra-nationalist neo-nazis were always a small threat.But no one thought a marginal group like that would come to power.Ukraine always had an oligarch or two,three,four,etc.That would put a lid on problems if paid enough.In fact many people thought Tymoshenko was Putin’s ace in the hole, until her anti-Russian outburst.Russia, I do believe had connections and agents throughout the military and SBU.But the SBU power went to a Russophobe after the coup and the military was mostly sidelined by the coup.I think the US used the neo-nazis only because the protesters were failing.And they thought they could control them.And now they are stuck with them.They had wouldn’t an Orange 2.0.And got a “Brownshirt Revolution” instead.All that money spent by the West on education, rewriting history.And forming a pro-west media.Ended making a Frankenstein nazi monster.As for pro-Russian paramilitaries,your right they should have.But when 42-46% of the people are Russian or Russianized.They are your paramilitaries.It was a tragic error.But now its more important to figure out what to do, than bemoan it ,I’m afraid.I hope that is the answer to your questions.
To denazify Ukraine outside Galicia, wait thirty years. To denazi Galicia, remove the (lead) paint in the pre-soviet (Polish, lead painted) buildings, and wait 40 years. The denazification of Germany was cosmetic, but real denazification happened internally some decades years late, without external input—the cause was earlier (1922 ban). Ditto Japan.
Hudson said: Russia understands that the mills of justice may grind exceedingly slow, but they also grind exceedingly fine.
My view of the ceasefire is that it is the end of the first stage in the taking of Ukraine. Just as the USA is fighting a proxy war for Ukraine so is Russia.
The Ukraine junta guided by US Military Advisers have thrown the Ukrainian forces into the fight in the hope that sheer weight of number would take Novorossia and release its natural resources for use by US/EU businesses, particularly Biden & Son.
Not only has this not happened, but:
1. the NAF now has a strong and effective army that can defend Novorossia (I think Saker is correct that the NAF should not over-stretch their resources),
2. they have a direct gas line into Lughansk
3. they will get a regular supply of humanitarian aid from Russia and perhaps elsewhere.
4. Merkel has promised money to help re-build this area – I’ll believe it when I hear it confirmed by Novorossia.
5. Their population is returning with some at least well trained in te military arts courtesy of Mother Russia (thanks to Economics Expert http://www.MythFighter.com for that one)
On the other hand, the rest of the Ukraine is:
1. Grieving over 40,000 deaths and many horrifically mutilated men thrown into the fight without regard for their well being at any level.
2. entering into the cold season with gas in short supply and twice as expensive as it was if they can get it
3. Reduced pensions to buy gas and food with
4. Falling Hryvna and hence increasing food prices
5. Reduced harvest of home grown food
Under these circumstances I don’t think any area in Ukraine will be up for another fight with the NAF. On the contrary, there will be a strong backlash against those who caused this to happen.
If, Larosh and his crew conduct another coup and Larosh tries to enforce further military action the military will remember that these same Nazis were shooting their comrades in the back if they didn’t fight their own people. If the military fights again it will be against the Nazis, not the NAF. There are plenty of pro-Russian military still in the Ukraine army and the time is ripe for them to get together for some organised resistance which they should have done from the start.
Currently there is guerrilla action occurring in Kharkov, Herson and Odessa and this is a natural phase prior to any uprising there. If it occurs it would probably get junta support as they are desperate to shift the blame for these losses onto Kolomoisky. He looks set up to me.
Recent reports suggest that the damage to MH17 could have been due to a bomb on-board with fighter support. I think I heard that Kolomoisky owns the firm that runs the airport that MH17 flew from in Netherlands? That, the Odessa massacre and all his other disgusting activities makes him the ideal all-in-one candidate to take the fall.
Once the anti-Kolomoisy action is underway it would be easy to for the pro-Russian military to move against the junta. Regime change and Ukraine controlled by the Military would follow until a new government under terms favourable to Russia is formed. Job Done!
Just my speculations but it would be nice if it worked out
@Nora and Katherine in a previous thread
Part 1
I just have a few thoughts regarding the “southernization” of the US and American gun culture. I think it is important to consider the possibility that the real threat to this society by gun violence comes from the federal government rather than from the conservative population. It is unclear how many episodes of mass shooting on US soil in recent years have actually been staged by the feds, but it is quite possible that a number of prominent cases were in fact staged. Without going into a discussion of individual events – as ample serious material is available online – I can only say that very credible evidence of fed involvement exists in many cases. It is well established that the CIA conducted bombings in Europe in the latter decades of the 20th century as a way of influencing popular elections. This is part of their playbook – orchestrating crises in order to create a reaction in the population, which later will necessitate a particular preplanned solution (war, for example.) The level of government manipulation in world events is extensive, as is the manipulation of the public mind.
The deep divisions within American society have to some significant extent been sown by our own government not only through staged violence but also through political theatre. Frequently conservative extremists are held up as representative of conservative people, when in fact the conservative population dislikes them as much as we do. The Oklahoma City bombing is an interesting example, which has been questioned by many in our own congress and by the assistant director to the FBI at that time. It was pinned on conservative patsy Tim McVeigh in order to solidify antagonisms between liberals and conservatives within the country. The point was to bring us to see conservatives as home-grown terrorists.
I suppose the question is do we really want to be disarmed in the face of such a violent government? Liberals say yes, conservatives disagree. Already SWAT raids against innocent people in their homes are occurring routinely in the US and there are already many victims. Most people do not want to be left defenseless in the fact of such violence. They do not agree that disarming the public will lead to a more peaceful society, but rather to an embolded government. This is the true point of disagreement.
@Nora and Katherine
Part 2
Part 2
The Bundy ranch affair was an interesting case in point. Cliven Bundy is in fact the last rancher left in Clark County, Nevada, as the feds have successfully pushed all other ranchers off their land in that county. The MSM and liberal alternative media never mentioned this. Also, Harry Reid needed Bundy’s land for a business deal. They never mentioned that either. The cowboys and ranchers who stood down the feds at the Bundy ranch were completely peaceful protesters. Nobody told us this. The protesters knew the feds might open fire on them and they faced them down with great trepidation. Was this ever mentioned? No. The MSM and liberal alternative press were full of accusations against these people – largely average citizens – labeling them extremists, terrorists and militia. Hardly a true word was written about the situation. This is how the media and federal leadership cultivate a culture war. Our antipathy toward each other has become irrational and fraught with domestic propaganda
I cannot predict the future but I can say the distrust people on the left have for conservatives is misplaced. Many now stand more firmly opposed to US foreign wars than do American liberals (including the present situation) and to foreign interventions in general. Even Pat Buchanan is writing very reasoned articles against US foreign policy, including against US policy vis-à-vis Russia, while the alternative liberal press is largely parroting MSM lies about events. It is odd, perhaps, but American conservatives (many now libertarians) have become the progressives of the new era, while American liberals are embracing fascism. Why? The picture is not nearly as clear as liberals believe.
A 10K Nato “reaction force” aimed at Russia is a very dangerous thing indeed.
I can only assume the goal of installing such a force in the eastern NATO countries is to try to put up an obstacle to Russian agression. Not a real obstacle in military terms but a kind of a hostage situation where Russia will have to kill westerners in any conflict with those countries.
Because in military terms it means only 10.000 dead Nato soldiers. No way they could sway the outcome in any real war situation.
By putting hostages in place Nato will be painting itself into a corner if there ever was a real conflict involving those troops. It can’t protect them it could only avenge them. Very dangerous and shortsighted.