You know the expression, “better a bad peace than a good war“. This surely sounds true and common sense seems to support this. But, as with many slogans, it all depends on the meaning of words.
For one thing, Russia has been at war with the Empire for at least since 2013. You can call that “peace” as opposed to a full-scale convention or nuclear war, but considering the human and material costs of this very real war, I am not so sure that the word “peace” fits.
Next, if we accept that we are already in a costly and ugly war (even if this war is not a full-scale military one), one could reasonably say that “bad” is still preferable to “worse”. But here the assumption is that a transition to an open war would be necessarily worse for Russia. But is that really true?
In economic and political terms, Russia remains weaker than the consolidated West. In military terms, however, it is the opposite (see here for a very good primer on this issue). Would that then not make sense for Russia to move the confrontation into the mode which favors her?
Furthermore, the notion that now is “bad” and that it will get “worse” if Russia is forced to intervene makes another logically flawed assumption: that if Russia does absolutely nothing things will not become “worse” anyway!
Then, we need to define the concept of “good war”. Thousands of volumes have been written about what a “just” war is and even thousands more about what a “good war” might be. This is a complex and even philosophical issue which I don’t want to discuss now, but I do want to point out the ambiguity of the concept.
There is also a practical reason: seems to me that the time has come again for the West to receive the painful smackdown the West gets from Russia about once every century. Clearly the folks in Germany have forgotten WWII. As for the US Americans, 99.99999999% of them don’t know shit about WWII!. Maybe all these loudmouths need a, what shall we call it, maybe a not-so-gentle “reminder”? I would not suggest that if I had ANY hope AT ALL that the Europeans at least remember WWII. Alas, I have no such hopes left.
So what are we left in the case of Russia vs Banderastan?
I submit that what Russia did in 08.08.08 five day war (in reality only three!) was correct. She did the following:
- Comprehensively disarmed Saakashvili’s gangs of thugs in uniform
- Guaranteed the safety of both South Ossetia and Abkhazia
- Did not engage in a long occupation, take Tbilisi (absolutely correct decision!) or impose another ruler
Russia got the job done, and simply left (with a small contingent left in both South Ossetia and Abkhazia)
Now let’s transpose that the Ukronazi controlled Ukraine:
- Comprehensively disarm “Ze’s” gangs of thugs in uniform
- Guarantee the safety of the LDNR
- Not “solve” the Ukrainian crisis for the Ukrainians (that is their job, not Russia’s)
Seems to me rather reasonable. And, besides, just like Georgia, the Ukronazi Ukraine will not recover from that “minimal response” for many years. In fact, I believe that only by defanging the Ukronazis would guarantee the collapse of Banderastan into several successor states.
There are, of course, major differences between Georgia on 08.07.08 and today’s Ukraine, both quantitative and qualitative. Just one example: the Ukies could attack Russia proper (I said “attack” – I did NOT say “prevail”!) something which Saakashvili could not do. Still, the fundamental sequence disarm->protect->withdraw is, in my opinion, one worth considering as “good” a war as can be, especially since the “peaceful alternative” might turn out much worse.
So what do you think? Should Russia repeat the 08.08.08 scenario if the Ukronazis attack?
The Saker
PS: bonus question: check out these two news items:
- Russia is transferring 10 amphibious and artillery ships of Caspian Flotilla to the Black Sea Fleet.
- US Mulls Sending Warships Into Black Sea To Be “Ready To Respond” To Ukraine Crisis.
Question: can you find a logical military rationale for either move and, if yes, which one?
Saker, thanks for all you do and for providing this link to all those in the Western news-free Matrix.
My point of disagreement with your suggestion comes from what I see as the inevitable placement of NATO forces in an unoccupied Ukraine following any conflict. It is my understanding that this constitutes a red line for Russia and I don’t see any other way to prevent it other than Russia occupying Ukraine (plus going ahead and occupying Transnistria at the same time, too). I have assumed that was what was meant when Russian officials said that any new war will cause Ukraine to be “destroyed”.
I also think Paul Craig Roberts was correct in suggesting that Russia should have accepted the proposal to allow the Donbass Republics to rejoin Russia, because then the UAF would be facing Russian forces in Donbass. Is that still an option under present circumstances?
I have to wonder about what is going to happen in the Black Sea, with talk of deploying more US naval vessels there to “send Russia a message”. It will be a miracle if they all don’t wind up sitting on the bottom with the Ukrainian navy; if that happens, then we have a direct US-Russian military conflict and all the calculations will change.
The pentagon walked back the announcement that US ships will be sent to the Black Sea. Once again, all bark no bite from the empire. But this shows that at least some people in the pentagon aren’t strategically retarded and they know very well what the military situation is in the region.
Where did you see that the Pentagon walked it back?
I’ve just read that they already informed the Turks that two ships will be coming through the straits next Tuesday.
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-us-warships-black-sea-ukraine-tensions
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-turkey-idUSKBN2BW1HV
??
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/268556906/us-mulls-sending-warships-to-black-sea
Read the reporting carefully, it’s all framed in a very conditional “if Russia escalates, we may send in ships” sort of thing. This came out after the initial reports so in a way they’re covering their asses for the inevitable retreat.
..”US warships set sail for Black Sea amid stand-off with Russia over military conflict in Eastern Ukraine, Turkish diplomats report”…”American sailors have set course for the Black Sea, off the south coast of Russia, in a move widely seen as a show of support for Ukraine, where fighting between Kiev’s forces and separatist militias has worsened in recent weeks.
On Friday, a source at the Turkish foreign ministry told TASS that it had received a notification from Washington that two US warships would pass through the Bosporus straits and into the Black Sea. Under international law, Ankara controls access to the inland body of water for certain types of vessels, including navy ships.
In accordance with these conventions, Turkish envoys say they “were notified through diplomatic channels 15 days ago that two US warships would enter the Black Sea. The ships will remain there until 4 May,” the unnamed official said. The journey will take the crews almost 9,000 miles from the eastern seaboard of America, near to coastal Ukraine and Russia, including the sensitive and disputed Crimean peninsula.”…https://www.rt.com/russia/520624-warships-coast-military-conflict/
And you trust Turkey to tell the truth? LOL
Why so arrogant? Let us wait and we´ll see
Of course Turkey tell the truth. Until the Istanbul Canal is built (if ever), they need to control the Straits!
Hey Anony – I agree totally with you – the MEE is not a big publication and its so easy to get fooled by professionals –
Russia is going to close the border with Turkey because it lookw like the Turks are joining the Nato conspiracy against Russia.
If I remember right, the Montreux Conventions of 1936 ban any navy in the Black Sea not belonging to the littoral states, and are still in force. On what grounds the US Navy enters the Black Sea or Turkey allows the ships to enter are not known.
They can enter for 21 days with Turkey’s permission. It’s not hard to read the Convention.
Turkey notifies Russia of US warships’ transit to Black Sea
A source in Turkey’s Foreign Ministry told TASS earlier on Friday that two US warships would enter the Black Sea through the Bosporus Strait on April 14 and 15 and stay there until May 4-5
https://tass.com/politics/1276195
Serbian Girl
Ze has been a busy boy.
A visit to Qatar April 6.
April 10:
President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky has started an official visit to the Republic of Turkey.
Ze will meet Erdoğan.
A number of bilateral documents are planned to be signed.
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-polytics/3225186-zelensky-arrives-in-turkey.html
Perimetr
Two US ships in the Black Sea would, from the military point of view, achieve nothing should war break out, as they would easily be sunk by Russian coastal missile systems and the Russian Air Force. The US is sending them as a bluff, trying to intimidate Russia. Waste of time. There is no way Russia will give up Crimea, nor let Kiev take the Donbass.
The two US warships are destroyers Roosevelt and Donald Cook. The USS Donald Cook, also known as the USS Donald Duck, has been in the Black Sea before, becoming a “celebrity” when it encountered a Russian SU-24 which possessed the Khirbiny jamming system. All of the Cook’s electronics were closed down, including it’s Aegis electronics system. The SU-24 flew over the Cook 12 times, and the destroyer turned around and fled to Romania, where 27 sailors deserted.
The Cook is obviously being sacrificed in some form or another. The Pentagon would like to see if the upgraded Khirbiny will again be used and the effects it would create. Also, intimidating Russia is another reason why it is being sent to the Black Sea. Since it is only a destroyer, one could say the neocons are hoping that the Russians would sink it and thus give NATO an excuse for war. However, this is only a supposition of mine.
I’m not well versed on ship types and capabilities these days. Do American DDs have a surface nuclear capability? Cruise missiles for instance?
Russia has been under attack from the Empire since 1990.
It has been a decade long psychological and real war with considerable human and economic loss.
So a transition into open warfare will not be any different for Russia.
If Russia does not react harshly to these attacks, the attacks will keep getting worse.
A large part of the European population has been schooled about the horrors of WWII.
The current leaders of Germany and France willfully disregard the WWII destruction of Europe.
The current leaders of the US believe that they can attack any nation without repercussions on US soil.
Time has come for the Fascist Elite to receive a lesson.
The Sakers idea of response is both intelligent and fair:
Disarm the Ukrainian soldiers who are forced to wear uniform by Banderastan .
Kill all NAZI mercenaries, to secure complete control of Donbass by the LDNR.
Then Leave the area to be “solve” by the Ukrainians them selves.
One more failed attack against Donbass will end the Ukronazi leadership hijacking Western Ukraine.
The Ukrainian military will not recover for many years.
“US Mulls Sending 10 Warships Into Black Sea To Be “Ready To Respond” To Ukraine Crisis”.
I am wondering about the consequences if a large 3rd party Oil Tanker got stuck under one of the 3 bridges crossing the strait of Bosporus, and the tanker then caught fire and began to sink right under the bridge.
Would that make the bridge collapse into the water way, and would such accident block the strait of Bosporus before the US Navy arrives. How Unfortunate.
Regarding US and NATO Exercise Defender Europe 21.
I fear that the exercise is intended to go live in June 2021, with an attack on Eastern Ukraine + threats of invasion of Russia on multiple fronts.
So stay prepared.
The situation in Ukraine is weakening the west, making the Maidan coup seem worse and worse the more Ukraine disintegrates. Why offer them an easy out by annexing Donbass and Luhansk? Let their wounds fester.
And yes, this is somewhat unfair to the citizens of Novarusia. But then at least, they do not have to risk a war.
How would the west respond to a (short/long) invasion of Ukraine? I don’t think they will sit and watch. The question becomes how quickly can Russia achieve its goals and leave?
Of course they won’t sit and watch; they will shout a lot. issue a lot of sanctions, raise a lot of noise in tv channels, send a lot of ammunition to Ukraine and charge exorbitantly for all these services.
who ya ganna call ? call NATO – like calling Ghost Busters.
Ukrainian TV (read that) said Nato will get involved in a war with Russia and the upcoming Nato exercise is exactly that.
Looks like the Ukies want to lure Nato in a war, maybe even through a false flag.
Better for Russia to intervene right now, instead of waiting for the inevitable which could be even worse, or just surrender to Ukie and Nato demands. Surrendering to their demands will trigger the collapse of Russia in the medium to long term.
Only option is for Russia to preempt right now, start the war, don’t wait to get worse cards late in the game.
Hi
Maybe to attack Odessa whilst Ukrainian forces focused on east?
https://www.academia.edu/367981/Strategic_Geopolitical_Significance_of_Odessa
I think that if Russia supported the DPR fighters in taking Luhansk, Donetsk & Zaporizhzhia provinces, and everything east of the Dnieper below Zaporizhzhia, that would not only provide a land bridge to Crimea; but would probably be enough to cause the dissolution of the coup regime.
Trying for Odessa might be a Tartar. Anyway what is the difference between the Americans having naval bases in Romania or in Moldova, as opposed to Odessa?
Moldova doesn’t have sea access, why would they have a navy?
ahahahaha – I guess that might be a reason to not have a port. Saker’s question is a quickie – get in get out.
I personally don’t think there will be war – this is all necessary posturing for Russia – I was really worried in the first days – and contacted the only person I know in Ukraine – best dog breeder in the world – and although she is actually in the US right now delivering pups – she assured me that there would be no war.
So that means either that smart Ukrainians are completely in the dark as to what their own government intends, or that the die has been thrown and this is all smoke and mirrors now…on the part of the US and Ukraine.
Well, if the best dog breeder in the world says it ….. ;-)
2/ Black Sea Feb 15/21
Ukrainian Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba revealed details of his conversation with US. Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Kiev, with the support of Washington, will start forming a trilateral military alliance comprising of Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova. Although Moldova is not directly on the Black Sea like Ukraine and Georgia, it does have relatively easy access via the Port of Giurgiulești on the Danube River.
The bold statements by Kiev’s leaders do not usually provoke significant global interest, but this is special as the order came directly from the White House.
BRICS Information Portal http://infobrics.org
“For one thing, Russia has been at war with the Empire for at least since 2017.”
Groan, how many times have commenter’s posted on here about the duration of war against Russia ? Whatever form it takes, has taken by which ever people. Sorry, but it seems an 8th thread is capitalising on the political, alt-war rhetoric enthusiasm, with philosophical meanderings on the meaning of “war” at the expense of readers intelligence – slow down Saker take a break !
Deal!
I take a break and you take a hike :-P
It’s been plain that there is a hybrid war going on for years. It’s caused real destruction and real death for real people. (personal attack removed, mod)
Russia made a big mistake by halting NovoRussian advances in the previous war, the Ukie army was on the verge of collapse, but because of Putin being political correct with his western partners and trusting them, he gave them what they wanted, that is time. Similar mistakes were made by Serbian leadership in the Yugoslav wars.
I am sorry, but you clearly are not qualified to assess the (very real) risks involved in an operation to take, say, Mariupol. Russia stopped the LDNR forces from getting enveloped by a Ukie push towards the southeast. As for the Serbian situation, it was completely different (hence my comment about you not having the basic skillset to make such sweeping comments about modern warfare).
I think the NovoRussian military leadership at that time would disagree with that assessment and i don’t think the reasons behind Putin’s “peace” agreement with the west and Ukraine were of military nature, more of political (MH17 being the political trigger and Putin wanted to keep Ukraine as a buffer with opposing forces in one country which would neutralize eachother politically).
Russia could have finished the war in Syria within a year but didn’t because of potential (geo-)political repurcussions, Putin had to appease his opponents.
Nope.. Russia has been appeasing their Western opponents far too long, giving them time to encroach up on Russia. Same mistake did Yugoslavia and the Serbs make.
I remind you that NOBODY in the Novorussian leadership at the time had any military qualifications. Well, except Khodakovskii (and his were purely tactical!). And yes, they did want to liberate Mariupol. The Ukies had “fleeing units” in the north and west of Mariupol. Except that this was a very dangerous trap. How?
What the militia leaders missed was that getting TO Mariupol and fighting INSIDE Mariupol were two very different proposition. Not only that, but offensive urban operations require a steady supply chain. The Novorussians had gone too far by then and their supply lines were extremely vulnerable. Again, we are not talking about regular companies or battalions here, we are talking about rather primitive militia forces. Not only did they risk their supply line cut, they also risked being enveloped (just as the Urkonazis who went waaay too far inside the LDNR were). They did not see that. Moscow did. And who would have to rescue the Novorussians in case of problems? Moscow of course. So thank you, but no thank you. This has nothing to do with “Putin selling out” or being “politically correct”.
Now please stop posting this nonsense and stick to topics you 1) you have the key facts and 2) understand.
Thank you.
The NovoRussian military leadership (as you spelled it) had no one of real military rank above a Captain in the regular military. The operational command was totally “directed” by Russian officers and at least one General responsible.
The militia couldn’t understand the terrain and order of battle of the Ukies like the Russians did because they were in no possession of their own Satellite or Special Forces Intel, had no aircraft and in those days no drones.
So, Saker knows and you don’t have a clue.
At the time, Zakharchenko was smart and listened to the Russian General.
The available Ukie forces would have overwhelmed the divided force of the LDNR. That would have left Lugansk weakened and eventually Debaltsevo in the winter would have never been possible, a joint operation to form that cauldron.
So, you see, Minsk 2 would have never happened and Putin would have had to either send in Russian troops or loose the Donbass.
Try not to outsmart the Russian General Staff and President Putin. You’ll get yourself killed or captured and then killed.
Everyone who wanted Mariupol taken had a good idea but no solution. It would have required thousands of Russians to do the job.
Immediately following Debaltsevo, the LDNR forces bombarded Mariupol, but couldn’t sustain an attack. They withdrew.
As it was shortly thereafter, that trench warfare went badly for them in the zone they would have been encircled. They had to eventually give up several towns/villages because they had no way to defend and hold it.
The militia never had an advantage in numbers. The Ukies had reserves that would have destroyed the attackers of Mariupol. It happened in May-June 2014 and it was impossible in January 2015.
If Mariupol ever is taken, Russians will take it. Likely elite forces from air, sea and with great surprise.
I can see another problem Russia may have,those Nazi prostitutes in Ukraine may just deccide to allow Nato to build a base in mariupol,that would be a bridge too far,it can’t be allowed to happen.
Russia is in a position where waging all out war against Ukraine will get them the same reaction from the west as a “clean” war like you suggest modeled off the Georgia case. We know as well as Russian leadership does that the empires’ goal is to carve up Russia. Russia is in a position where if they do nothing, America will demonize, sanction, and try to destroy them, and if Russia does something “big”, America will demonize, sanction, and try to destroy them. Biden already called Putin a killer. So they might as well go for the “big” option. Take western Ukraine including Odessa and Kiev in a short hot war. There will be a lot of wailing and screaming but ultimately there is nothing the empire can do about it unless they want to break the nuclear seal, which I think we all know they don’t have the balls to do, at least not over Ukraine or NS2. Let Ukraine make the first strike and maybe let them take Donetsk before a pincer move is done from Crimea and Belarus, ending the conflict and Ukraine as a nation-state.
Big lad, I like what you said, and I agree, that when the Ukronazis start their offensive, that Russia then takes all of Ukraine. My only point of contention is with the statement “let them take Donetsk”. I think the whole point of the Russian build-up along their common border with east Ukraine is to save the lives of the Russian citizens living there. Letting the nazis take Donetsk would involve many deaths and atrocities against those citizens, so that would be counter the Russian intentions in this standoff.
Putin did say that if an attack occurred, he would target no only the attackers, but those who gave the orders, and those who coordinate the attack. That sounds like Zelensky and his handlers, henchmen, commanders, etc. Ukraine needs to return to Russia, to act as buffer, and also to return to some kind of productive usefulness. Removing the pirates from power is step one. Russian troops would need to remain, to operate the tribunals for war criminals, and to maintain law and order in the streets, preventing nazi atrocities and other criminal activities.
Patrick
BS lad: ‘let them take Donetsk’ is utter BS! I KNOW people living there, and for you to simply dismiss them is unthinking, unthinkable and sickening, not to mention the (now) Russian citizens living in Donetsk whose duty Russia has to defend them, not to lose them.
I agree with Ralph.
IMO.
Russia will not leave their Slavic brothers and sisters behind or on their own as Mr Putin said in the past.
We can talk and discuss as much as we like, the Russians have a planning for the longterm.
The world might be surprised by their response(s).
Russian Generals are the best in the world, with their “terrible” endurance and their surprising strategies and tactics.
God bless Russian Federation, the Russian people and the people of Donbas/Luhansk and all leaders.
Save the children!
Russia is not the enemy!
Just a quick update on the wider picture in the region.
Currently all eyes are off Moldova and Transnistria. This is the intention.
Ukraine are making a dance about moving to recapture Crimea and a big show in the Donbass. This may be a US/UK contrived distration whilst forces are moved closer to Moldova to prepare Moldova for entry to NATO with Ukraine.
There is however a small issue of removing the Russian presence from Transnistria.
The US and UK have been preparing for a decade to remove Russian forces from both Transnistria and Crimea. These plans have not changed.
I have heard today that both the US and the British military have increased thier “cooperation” with Moldova and are now actively supplying Moldova with both “training advisors” and various pieces of equipment required to integrate C&C with NATO.
Moldova has already received several deliveries from both the US and UK whilst all eyes are on Ukraine.
“Apparently” the US have now increased thier threat level for Moldova – and the extra warships they plan to send into the Black Sea are for this mission – and are a direct threat to Russian forces in Transnistria.
In a nut shell the US have revealed that they “know” that the Russians are planning to land a substantial force in Moldova to reinforce forces in Transnistria and “flank” British led Ukrainian forces in the West in the event of an escalation involving Donbass and / or Crimea.
This may be part of these preparations:
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/40103/russian-gunboats-head-to-the-black-sea-to-join-troop-buildup-near-ukraine
“Apparently” the type of equipment already moved to Crimea by the Russians and as seen on various social media recently is of the type required to support a landing in Moldova (and / or South Ukraine).
The US and UK have long recognised the vulnerability of Moldova and South Ukraine and have been preparing for quite some time.
If anyone thinks any of this is the product of fiction they should research this matter and also read articles in the public domain such as these:
https://regtrends.com/en/2019/10/24/us-military-base-in-moldova/
https://regtrends.com/en/2021/04/08/the-future-of-ukraine-moldova-relations-pragmatic-cooperation-or-a-geopolitical-union/
https://www.facebook.com/BritishEmbassyChisinau/videos/british-military-advisory-and-training-team/509958703301857/
Old but still relevent:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/224472/evidence-stefan-wolff-the-transnistrian-issue.pdf
Also, with regards to the British, they have taken a page out of Sun Tzu (appear weak where you are strong and strong where you are week) and have a global network of bases (and missile launch sites and plaforms) second only to the United States:
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-11-24-revealed-the-uk-militarys-overseas-base-network-involves-145-sites-in-42-countries/
It would appear that the movement of equipment to Estonia of the type that could threaten St Petersberg, the surrounding of Kaliningrad, the surrounding of the Russian fleet in the Med (and a deployment of a US carrier group and subs), and various other moves which should be clear to a trained eye, would now seem to support the general belief that a major war between Russia and NATO members US and UK, is now more likely than not.
We are arguably seeing the final positioning of chess pieces before this “game” begins.
Remember – whenever you see the Americans doing something immediately look to see what the British are up whilst people are looking at the Americans.
You clearly have done your research. Do you see the west using nukes first and if so under what circumstances?
I share the feeling that chess pieces are being positioned – that seems to have been going on for quite a while know. Something tells me that even Brexit is part of this game (in a broader sense), that soon enough we’ll understand why the UK wanted to get out of EU.
The British people voted for it; their ruling class is always against Brexit.
Ulrich Bonadea is right imho, I’ve thought this since before the brexit vote. The English & Welsh voted for it, not the Scots or Irish. The English voted for it because they’ve been whipped in to Rule Britannia Empire mode by their masters.I agree that the reasons will become apparent as The Ukraine & the EU crumble, unless of course Vlad impales them unexpectedly,again!
NATO is a British construct designed to keep the Americans in, the Russians out & the Germans down. So we have the US in, Russia nearly out & if there’s no Nord Stream 2, the Germans will be down.
Up with the multipolar world of sovereign nations.
Thank-you for your excellent summary and analysis. It is much appreciated,.
Also, with regards to the British, they have taken a page out of Sun Tzu (appear weak where you are strong and strong where you are week) and have a global network of bases (and missile launch sites and plaforms) second only to the United States:
https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2020-11-24-revealed-the-uk-militarys-overseas-base-network-involves-145-sites-in-42-countries/
Thanks for the link. It is very eye-opening, if not shocking.
According to that website, the British military’s overseas base network “involves 145 sites in 42 countries.” This includes–surprise, surprise–Britain’s beloved tax havens like Gibraltar or Bermuda.
Put another way, the British have *more* overseas military bases than its “enemies” like Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea combined–not to mention more than Germany, France, Turkey, Japan, or India.
Who says that the sun set on the British Empire?
The Suez Canal incident that is widely thought to have marked the end of the British Empire increasingly looks like a deception to disguise the reality that this British Evil Empire exists today.
The Boris Johnson government is about to cut the UK armed forces down to something like 75000 active personnel. A force that size spread out over 145 bases (not that I would place much value in that Daily Maverick report) represents nothing more than a lengthy target list for true military superpowers and rivals like Russia or China.
Britain is nothing more than a former colonial power desperately trying to punch above its weight with a modest 2nd rate military. Yes, they do have some competent and effective units (SAS) and they do possess nuclear weapons but they would never dare use those in any conventional conflict.
And in your assessment you expect the Russians to do what ? Just sit back and let this happen? Do you realize how small England is ? It is simply indefensible against a saturated ballistic missile strikes. If the U.S. and U.K. are silly enough to try as you’ve illustrated…. England WILL be flattened beyond any shadow of a doubt . This theory I find pure fantasy. Regarding U.S. ships in the Black Sea? Pure logistics and data collection. NATO have been itching to get technical operational data on Russian S400, jamming and electronic systems
Also battle tactics and proficiency.
There is 100% ZERO chance of U.S. , UK or NATO assets direct involvement!
The U.S. NATO etc have had countless opportunities to bloody Russia’s nose in Syria if they were capable of doing so . Instead you suggest they’ll do it in Russia’s backyard?? Omg . The Black Sea is Russia’s cauldron. As for U.S…… Do you know where Russia’s nuclear sunshine are parked waiting in the ready in case the U.S. tried such an insane move ? My guess America will cease to exist the minute the missiles fly . Dido to every us naval asset with 2000km of Eurasia. Sheer madness and pure fantasy
My thoughts. If Ukraine troops attack the LDNR, Russia should do the following:
1. Unleash a massive assault on the invading forces.
2. Extend air defense systems directly to LDNR.
3. Refuse to talk to the west.
4. Begin an air/missile campaign against the infrastructure of Ukraine. Including blowing up the dam that deprives Crimea of water. Destroy all their bridges and electric grid. Also their precious gas pipelines.
Create a buffer zone far enough out from LDNR to ensure the safety of it’s residents.
5. Declare victory.
6. Tell Europe if you don’t want NS2 that’s fine and if you don’t want our gas at all that’s fine also.
7. Tell the west we’re ready to resume relations on an equal basis and on areas of mutual concern.
8. Make it clear Russia won’t spend a dime to help Ukraine rebuild and that you always wanted Ukraine now you have it.
9. Offer Russian citizenship to any interested Ukrainians that find themselves on the wrong side of the conflict.
PCR has been saying forever that the west sees Russia’s patience as weakness. He was right all along. It’s time for Russia to be strong.
Don’t forget the danger to Russia et al if the Ukrainian nuclear power plants are destroyed. The plant at Zaporizhzhia is the largest in Europe. Imagine Chernobyl times 20 . . . plus Chernobyl didn’t have spent fuel on site.
Well Russia knows exactly what the Ukrainians have. I was thinking more about the transmission system and substations.
You’re mistaken. Chernobyl involved a very unique set of circumstances (find Bernard Cohens book on nuclear power for a great Chapter on the preliminary and step-by-step of the Chernobyl disaster). In particular Chernobyl led to a wide release of radiation because an intense fire occurred in the graphite moderator of the reactor core and there was no containment dome. That style of reactor, RBMK, does not exist in Ukraine. If you bombed a nuclear power plant, you might release some radioactive material, but it would be nothing like Chernobly. And, keep in mind that in the VVER type of reactor the containment dome is 1 meter thick reinforced concrete. It is not easy to destroy.
The spent fuel pools (located at each nuclear reactor at the power plants) each hold several times more long-lived radionuclides (cesium137 and strontium90, for example) than do the reactor cores — and none of the pools are located within the concrete confinement you mention. You could easily make most of Ukraine uninhabitable by destroying them.
Only a few grams of cesium137 made into an aerosol and distributed over a square kilometer will leave that land a radioactive exclusion zone for a century. Spent fuel pools contain thousands of kilograms of cesium137.
True enough. A deliberate attack might cause a ‘pool fire’ from the zirconium cladding. I know pools have been examined as potential targets of terrorists. I don’t know if Ukraine has taken any measures. Are Ukraines spent fuel pools underground?
They have everything to gain and nothing to lose. There is no longer any PR war to lose, who cares what westerners think or their propaganda says? The majority of the world’s population are in the East, and more discerning.
Time to send a message.
Saker:
I respectfully submit that this is not just about a conflict between Russia and the Empire. Russia has to be aware how its actions play to that part of the world that is not yet assimilated into the Empire Borg. That is: the Plan B world. Russia must keep to the high moral road from the point of view of the rest of the world. It must be seen as following agreements that have been made. It must be seen as following defined international law. It must be seen as “agreement capable.” This limits how bad a spanking it should give.
Russia will be demonized as the greatest evil since … Trump… by the Empire anyway. Russia probably realizes that it cannot influence the Empire’s media narrative. I would suggest that if an Iron Curtain falls between the Empire and Russia, Russia should expel all the meddling western NGOs, western social media and other foreigners supporting a color revolution. The media outcry will be no worse.
TheBAG
“Russia will be demonized as the greatest evil since … Trump… by the Empire anyway.”
Who cares?
Seriously. Who cares about this anymore? In what way does western lies affect Russia in a tangible way at this point? Russia is pivoting East, economically. Her partners won’t buy into the lies.
Can also keep in mind that the relentless, 100% demonization of Trump by all the mass media … only convinced half of the American people.
They are already demonized,the war against Russia in my opinion started with the attack on the FRY,the Reich chose its moment well,a drunken court jester was running Russia into the ground with Western partners,i am not sure Russia could have stopped that attack but way i saw it at the time the Russian Government told Milosovic to surrender,we have had wars ever since waged by the Reich,they should have been stopped a long time ago.
No. Russia should annex Ukraine and split it with Poland and Hungary.
Don’t forget that Belarus wants a part too. Give nothing to Poland.
Why must Russia wait to react to a Ukrainian attack? The western media will demonize Russia even when it acts in self defence. Does that free up the option for a preemptive strike? Wouldn’t maximum positive results from such a war be more achieveable is Russia acts first?
Russians are suppose to be good chess players. Any chess player knows that the one who takes the initiative has the best chance of winning. Aren’t Russia’s current problems due to the fact it is always reacting to American actions. Twice, in Georgia and Syria, Russia struck boldly and unexpectedly. Is it not time for a third action?
Putin has made the remark that if you know a fight is inevitable you must throw the first punch. But if it’s your little punk brother you let him go first.
Surgical strike. That phrase is so beloved of the American military in its interventionist “low-casualty wars. What I noticed in a translation of the tasks assigned to various brigades in the recent Russian war game was that the commanders were given objectives and then told to be flexible in how they achieved these during the flow and “fog of war”. They were tasked with being creative and, I presume, judged on their responses. Finesse counts–not just wham/bam. Can we expect firm but polite “little green men” wafting from the skies
over key bio labs, airports, railroad nexus points, bridges, and nuclear reactors?
Cost-Benefit analysis: That is another term used by the technocratic fascist elite. For whom? And what key factors are left out of this? Russia must act in its own best long term interests. Let the chips fall as they may–another obnoxious value-deprived term so used but ….
And I think this is all about the arctic not the gas line. Those three nuclear subs breaking through the ice there drove them crazier than Alex Jones ranting outside the Skull & Bones headquarters.
As for the American people: well, each person will bear the collective blow back of the endless wars perpetuated upon the world by our ruling class …how we react and comport ourselves, will be how we will be judged. I was discussing this in a very mild way with a Christian and she just gasped and said, “oh, I’ll be ‘taken up” before THAT happens.”
I just don’t think it works that way….but? then what do I know… It seems clear to me that in the first chapters of Revelations 1-4 that the charges against the congregations were about not only what they were doing but what they were not doing and should have known enough to be doing. So with the discipleship comes certain responsibilities?
Ok, so what does that have to do with 8/8/08 or not in Ukraine? Everything. It is a two front physical as well as metaphysical war for humanity. The American people need not be coddled anymore as indeed they will not be.
So, my answer: Yes. Go for it. And beware of treacherous Turks.
I see that even if nothing at all happens Ukies r fckd.
U can bet that as son as sht hits tha fan some other(s) front is gonna flair up.
Safe bet would be Syria.
Hope Russians preempt that one with an understanding with Hezbollah/Iran.
Stomping out israeli ulcer will do the trick.
For one time do something even degenerate psychopaths will understand.
And how about China getting that ass of the couch once? Sure is time!
There is a new article on Zero Hedge, confirming that the US will indeed send two warships into the Black Sea to
“warn” Russia.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/turkey-confirms-2-us-warships-enter-black-sea-ukraine-russia-posturing-grows
based on
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-turkey/turkey-says-u-s-warships-to-deploy-in-black-sea-until-may-4-idUSKBN2BW1HV
FIRST:
from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreux_Convention_Regarding_the_Regime_of_the_Straits
“No more than nine foreign warships, with a total aggregate tonnage of 15,000 tons, may pass at any one time. Furthermore, no single ship heavier than 10,000 tonnes can pass.
An aggregate tonnage of all non-Black Sea warships in the Black Sea must be no more than 30,000 tons, or 45,000 tons under special conditions.”
So, the question is: Can the U.S. Navy find a way to get around this restriction?
SECOND:
Interesting graphic of Erdogan’s proposed Istanbul Canal at https://greekcitytimes.com/2021/04/05/turkish-montreux-convention/
Assuming the canal may be completed by 2030, the question is, what happens if Erdogan or a successor declares that the restrictions of the Montreux Convention do not apply to the canal? Would that in any way be a game changer?
Nothing is impossible for an agreement-incapable empire.
I think time is basically on Russia’s side. Every year Russia makes progress and the U.S. doesn’t. The bottom line is both Ukraine and the U.S. are in trouble. They are “cornered animals” and they are dangerous. The U.S. political system is failing. New leadership is needed, but the establishment has thwarted efforts for change. Will this change happen before the U.S. falls apart completely? Can Russia avoid a conflict during this interim period? Russia should definitely try to avoid a war with the U.S., which has a very good chance of going nuclear. The Ukraine situation is complicated, because Russia is concerned about Ukraine joining NATO. Ideally, everyone– both Russia and Ukraine, would benefit from peaceful relations and commerce. The Ukraine especially would benefit from relations with both Europe and Russia. Instead of working on this practical basis, the Ukrainian leadership created a completely unnecessary conflict that is harming Ukraine more then anything else; what a self-inflicted wound. Perhaps they are too far under U.S. control, but their only future lies with peace.
I agree. The matter is deep rooted, but basically, NATO is running out of BOEs. This specifically includes North America ( USA/Mexico/Canada), NorthSea (UK/Norway/Holland/Denmark ), EU(Romania/Libya/Algeria/Egypt). According to my scientist friend at crashoil.blogspot.com, BP’s latest outlook shows world oil production dropping 50% between now and 2025.
NATO must win big NOW, or it’s over. We must accept that the UkroNazis are NATO proxies, and do what NATO tells them to do. Of course, NATO would love to take all of Ukraine so NATO could put missiles 200 mi from Moscow, and checkmate Russia. NATO’s movement into the FSU via the Baltics, Georgia, and Ukraine is for the express purpose of checkmating Russia, and taking control of Russian resources, while they still can.
BUT… Russia managed to create a conventional deterrent, and conventional force superior to anything NATO can field, and NATO knows it. Which is why the Ukies have not attacked, and are backing down.
SO…. It is not in Russia’s interest to move things along, to have a violent confrontation at this time. Russia is much better off continuing the status quo ante, with Ukraine un-digestible, as well as Moldova, and Georgia, as far into the future as possible.
Andrey Martinov’s lastest essay says that Zelensky, in Russian, backed off. Russian intransigence, and obscurity, paid off if that is indeed so.
Regardless, thinkers are convinced no full scale operations will take place before Orthodox Easter on 2 May, and soil conditions won’t be suitable for manoeuver warfare before then, anyway.
Which is why I keep saying that this audience should not expect instant anything vis a vis Ukraine and Russia.
Battlefield conditions aren’t suitable, the UkroNazis and NATO have a lot to think about, and more to consider each and every day, as Russia brings up more and more stuff.
I don’t profess to be privy to Russian war plans….
However….
No one accumulates the force currently arrayed against Putschist Ukraine, for a limited effort, or for simple intimidation… It’s too big…
I believe Russia will array forces in far western Belarus, vis a vis the Suwalki Gap, and opposite NATO forces in the Baltics before hostilities begin, for the purpose of hiding the axes of advance they plan to use, and to force NATO into thinning it’s forces to the point they lose cohesion.
Russia may settle for keeping the lid on for another year or so. She may choose to settle matters in Ukraine this season. Only events will show which is operative.
Patience!
INDY
“Should Russia repeat the 08.08.08 war…”
It is the opponents who believe that they can control/repeat time.
“I don’t profess to be privy to Russian war plans….
However….
No one accumulates the force currently arrayed against Putschist Ukraine, for a limited effort, or for simple intimidation… It’s too big…”
It is the opponents who seek certainty by resorting to belief to bridge doubt, as illustrated above.
Wondering whether I am definitely late for the Trans-Siberian….seeing that amongst the few European there, there were two national frigates in the BlacK Sea…
Also, as while there are talks even from France and Germany, apart from previous ones from Austria, on negotiations for Russian vaccine production and purchasing, there are none from home….
What leads to me to think we have been definitely offered as sacrificial lambs by our Fullbright fellow officials….
“so NATO could put missiles 200 mi from Moscow”
For the third time in as many days, I see someone writing this 200 miles from Moscow nonsense. Please look at a map.
My opinion too.
Maybe change your last word to “armed peace” possibly :)
1. Comprehensively disarm “Ze’s” gangs of thugs in uniform
2. Guarantee the safety of the LDNR
3. Not “solve” the Ukrainian crisis for the Ukrainians (that is their job, not Russia’s)
Agreed, agreed, agreed. Ukrainians need to solve Ukraine’s problems.
4. Russia needs to promote the reputation as bona fide peacemaker that it has been working on since 2000. For this reason, it should avoid any military action that doesn’t have benefits far exceeding the cost.
5. Assist LDNR in pushing the contact line westward to accomodate return of the Russian refugees who fled the Ukronazis.
6. Vaporize all foreign militry equipment.
I don’t think Odessa is a feasible objective unless there are enough Russian refugees to occupy the adjacent territory. Next time around, perhaps.
PS: bonus question: check out these two news items:
Russia is transferring 10 amphibious and artillery ships of Caspian Flotilla to the Black Sea Fleet.
Good.
US Mulls Sending Warships Into Black Sea To Be “Ready To Respond” To Ukraine Crisis.
If there is any way to get Hunter Biden aboard one of those ships, they should be vaporized, too.
The sky is falling! The sky is falling! You’re really getting your rocks off on this aren’t you sake ol’ buddy. I can’t decide which of you is worse…marfooglenews or you. At least Marf allows people to speak, unlike you a tyrannical self- righteous jackals.
It seems you shot yourself in the foot this time. Next time aim higher.
Monkey, it’s cold in the northern hemisphere right now, there’s a saying, it’s so cold it would freeze the balls off a brass monkey, but not yours obviously. See no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil, but calling out is always allowed.
American ships near and off the Ukrainian coast make sense even if they have scheduled maneuvers. They don’t have to do anything special, just float in front of the shore and bother. The problem is that there will be NATO maneuvers from the Baltic to the Black Sea, and the attack of Ukrainian forces to the east will be incorporated into those maneuvers. While the maneuvers are taking place, it will prevent and hinder the offensive action of the Russian army and will probably help the Ukrainian forces without its direct combat action. NATO will mark Russian targets as part of its exercise, while this marking for Ukrainian forces will be the current combat assistance of NATO forces. That should be a practical form of American leadership from behind. The Russians will have to target NATO forces, and even American ones if necessary. Even Putin cannot prevent that. The military has its own rules of combat.
So further to the comment I posted about British and French troops in Texas for the Warfighter exercise (subtle)
/the-us-war-on-europe-a-continental-911-open-thread-7/comment-page-2/#comment-925137
I give you this: 2-3 inch hail in Texas!
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1380349837254791176
More gossipy conspiracy chatter than anything, but I had to post it.
To be self-indulgent for a moment, as a Canadian, I have to advise our neighbours to the south: just don’t trust the British or the French. Just don’t. Loyalty to Old World trumps promises to New World (even your part of it ) each and every time. Each and every time!!
People question what the actual intent or Policy of Empire is. It seems to be quite similar to WW1 and Mackinder’s Heartland ideas, and preventing the integration of Heartland, quite similar to the British intent in 1914, not that the British intent resulted in an ideal outcome, ahem…
“The King, mindful of his position as a constitutional monarch, made no public declarations about the situation in Europe in the lead-up to the conflict.
But in the newly-disclosed meeting, the King informed Sir Edward it was “absolutely essential” Britain go to war in order to prevent Germany from achieving “complete domination of this country”.
When Sir Edward said the Cabinet had yet to find a justifiable reason to enter the conflict, the King replied: “You have got to find a reason, Grey.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-one/10991582/Revealed-how-King-George-V-demanded-Britain-enter-the-First-World-War.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02987/PX5689635_Lewis-Wh_2987125a.jpg (copy of actual letter) First Telegraph url no longer effective.
I have a copy of the entire article if mod would like to read the telegraph article.
Is obvious, Empire must liquidate Russia, or else dissolve in defeat. Empire would prefer willing submission of war, but if war is what it takes, then Empire “wants” war.
However, Empire can’t get what it wants. In the metaphysics of conflict, Empire is walking dead. We are observing the denouement.
After Empire dies, American can become a normal country, maybe.
Their Lordships of Celestial and Inspired Wisdom down at the Imperial Planning for Victory Department might, perhaps, consult the Historians about what happened to England in The Great War… No Plan survives first contact, fellas…and only fools march on Moscow.
Hi Saker!
I agree with the 2008 scenario.
Any movement beyond Donetsk and Lugansk will mean at least partican resistance, deal with huge human displacement and a very very bad images to the world media (the western controlled one).
What is completly necesay is te complete destruction of the Ulranian navy, air force, army , whats left of their industry defense and of course, their leadership.The chaos in Ukraine following that will implode the country. This scenario is what i have read the most in the resistance web, and makes more sense. Russia dors not need to invade, just use stand off weapons and their superior tech. Nato will bark and move, but they cant really do anything.
But the clousure of NS2 and the total grip of Europe by the US, is inevitable, but it dors not matter, cuz the AZ empire will be incapable of handling it, even more a future campaign in latin america.
Thanks for your insight and take care!
President Joseph Biden (lead image, left) has been showing symptoms of late-stage Parkinson’s Disease, which includes episodic dementia caused by Lewy Bodies (striatal amyloid plaques). President Volodomyr Zelensky (right) is suffering from memory failure, mood swings, and other neurological disorders after his hospitalisation for Covid-19 five months ago.
http://johnhelmer.org/reminder-of-july-21-2019-for-democrats-suffering-acute-memory-failure/#more-45335
Definitely Repeat! And expand the people’s republics to be more defensible.
And add Odessa to the republics to chase away NATO’s navy.
Saker,
Other aspects not considered in your assessment in thread 7: “for the “Biden” administration, the upcoming war will be a dream come true, a way of killing many birds with one stone”
1. As I wrote before, the empire is a parasite occupying the USA. It is not an American empire but a City of London empire. The USA may have outlived its usefulness to the City with a useless expensive military. A defeat in Ukie and beyond may be a step in taking it down.
2. A war that fully activates RF’s military directly against NATO gives NATO an opportunity to test the capacity of the RF.
3. This provocation in Donbass is part of a wider plan. The pandemic is likely also a part of that plan. So there is much more to this probably.
4. The empire has some cards that they have been holding appearing to be weak and clueless.
One possibility is that a higher level of biowarfare may be unleashed on the RF and PRC, having tested their level of preparedness in the past year.
Or something completely different
5. The risk is Russia has hidden cards also.
Ozone
Well if the west plans to test biological warfare (something that the Russian security guy (forgot his name – K*** – Saker great post on it) basically stated, so no longer in the “conspiracy chatter” group, I would think that 2020 would show that China and to a lesser extent Russia are more than capable of coping.
China in particular reacted so forcefully and efficiently to COVID, that one must at least consider they thought they were under attack. China has come through superbly.
Russia has been less successful, but if its vaccine really does work then again they have done OK.
In terms of the reason for a war- yes testing Russian capacity is an obvious reason.
I find your comments about London interesting, because even since 2001, I have had a nagging suspicion that the UK was a player not a poodle. However I do not think that the UK MI6 has the status or competence it did in 1990. Britain in general seems less competent than it did in years past. it has certainly lost its status as a beacon for “civilized” behaviour.
I can only speak personally on this. As an Australian and a nationalistic one I once had a hierarchy Australia, Canada, NZ very good, UK good and honourable, USA arrogant and bullying and slimy.
Sadly all this has now changed for me and i suspect many others. I now see only NZ as very good, Australia and Canada dishonourable creeps doing the bidding of the USA, compete with ghastly war crimes and the UK quite ghastly and moving rapidly towards a fascist state – spy cameras etc, not to mention the Assange abomination The USA still bullying and slimy to which should be added now incompetent and divided.
Of course I accept that my earlier views may not have been justified, but since we are talking perception, mine probably reflect the opinions of many, particularly overseas observers
Hi the Saker,
You ask this question ”Question: can you find a logical military rationale for either move and, if yes, which one?”
Yes I can, it is about power and funding of the military. Of course it serves no military objectives besides political and finanacial and the likes.
We all should know about the warning for the powers of the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) in an adress I think was issued by Eisenhower in his farewell speach. Even though in Russia there are no for profit MIC companies they still strive for power, influence and money. I think this move by Russia is to please the MIC.
This is pure military play to get more money for useless military toys so to say for events totally not related to this crisis if you ask me from the Russian MIC. After all, them ships are useless even in a hot war with the Ukraine. Only money, power and so on can explain it to to me.
The same goes for the US sending in warships into the black sea. They dont care if them ships will be obliterated within minutes and at best hours. But hey, gets tons of funding. Especially when destroyed. WOW what profits can be made if they are destroyed. Lovely, let them be destroyed.
To summarise it, this escalation is great to enhance the power of BOTH MIcs. More so in the US vs Russia but do not underestimate the Russian MIC (and Chinese as well)
So sad in my opinion. Russia and China where forced to create their own MIC to confront the US MIC and are or becoming corrupted with their own MIC since that dynamic is uncontrollabe.
We, as peacefull humanity now face not one but many MICs, all going for power and the likes.
What we should be asking ourselfs is say the NATO collapses. Do you really think the Russian and Chinese (among others) MIC will really close up shop and end this BS? I do not think so. They have too much power and will find new enemies to keep them in power positions they are now.
It is a sad, sad situation and IF the zone B wins, I fear that they will, because of power stuff, will be just as bad as the American MIC.
Regards,
Hugo
I’d wish Russia would smash and grab Ukrland, but I see the good counterarguments made by many experts.
1. Russia is to weak to integrate an ill populace, even if it could do so militarily. We have no access to the general staff of Russia to make any definite conclusion. 38 battalions at the Ukr border are surely not enough. At least two armies are theoretically available in this proximate war theatre.
2. Ukraine has become a broke misery of a country (In 91 it was about on the level of West Germany). Paying for this mess is another albatross around Russia’s neck.
3. Another iron curtain erected in Europe. Envigorated ideology of Russophobia, NATO, economic fist…
All of this would pale if Russia decided to commit to become a traditional empire again, realize its full potential, by mobilizing its population, economy etc. But this is a pipedream right now, the population is living in its capatilst depression, no ideology, falling population numbers, spiritually weak, the elite is eons away from anything pro-Russian and Putin is a liberal – no doubt.
So we can confidently rely on Saker’s scenario to be the most likely outcome (new Georgia scenario or a rocket man shootout). I’m not even sure if Russia would do anything if Ukrland would join NATO down the line. Sad
2. Ukraine has become a broke misery of a country (In 91 it was about on the level of West Germany). Paying for this mess is another albatross around Russia’s neck.
This is a common argument made by readers of this website.
If one uses the common argument that the USA and UK as predatory capitalist entities, will go into a country to destroy it, giving their militaries a vast budget, so that they can then spend funds to rebuild the country (thereby embedding themselves further inside the country they have just destroyed) and then a campaign of getting charities to cry in anguish and get the UK and US public to donate even more of their hard earned money for the cause of subsidising the rebuild…
Then one could argue that a destroyed Ukraine has only one way to go, if Russia – now embracing a strong entrepreneurial capitalist culture – gets involved in a rebuild – it can only flourish again in future.
i do thus not see “Russia rebuilding the Ukraine” as a negative aspect at all…
in fact that would help Russia embed itself more strongly inside the Ukraine and thereby ensure that the infrastructure is put in place, to secure Ukraine inside the Russian defensive perimeter permanently…
What is good for the US ‘economic multiplier’ is good for the Russian ‘economic multiplier’
Russia being weak…hmmm….this is also a constant in debates.
Germanys 80 millions were ‘weak’ in 1929….10 years later Germanys 80 millions were a force that was so powerful that it took 3 major economies to crush Germany…
I postulate that the Russia of today is highly motivated, my own contacts state that Russian youth does not anymore automatically reach for alcohol to get through each day…now they are motivated to be productive and are aspirational.
So i cannot assess Russia as being weak. Whilst Russians are disgusted with the Ukrainians, they do recognize the geopolitics and the implications of the territorial gap between Russia and Kaliningrad…
Russia should simply declare their own “Monroe Doctrine” ….
Exactly, but all of this needs another systematic approach. Reeducation of then former Ukronazi territory, two-contur currency, priority of Russia made products and services, a real economic system based on physical principles (with sceleton state institutions providing base technologies, products, housing besides citizen initiatives) revolution at the top, high quality patriotic elites, consolidated belief system, outlawing self own/destruction policies like feminism/killing your children, incredibly stupid migrant policy, real fear to recognize Russians as the building block of the Russian state (they skirted around the issue in the recent constitution reform by saying Russian is the language of the “state-building people” lol) etc.
Now, tell me if Russians made any significant steps into this direction? There is an enormous rift in the brains of the entire people along liberal/communist/capitalist lines – all I can say about this is, that Russians haven’t lost their will to live like Western people. So, this is not enough, just enough to limb along.
I accept all your points but i also consider that all is not lost within Russia. I maintain that there is latent talent / obvious talent / aspirational talent… call it what you will…within Russia which can handle / knows how to handle the Ukraine situation. One should never make the mistake of assuming that their quiet approach is a sign of sloth or cluelessness or confusion. They will deal with things the Slavic way. Sure, the current situation is not easy – 7 years of minds being poisoned by western infiltration…one only needs to look at the vast difference in mindset that STILL remains between East and West German ways of thinking…but my angle on this is that the Russians have the talent and capability and drive, to ‘sort it all out’. It seems slower than how the impulsive western mind handles things but i continue to be optimistic that Russia would know how to return the Ukrainian population back into the former entity that it once was.
I completely agree. However Ukrainians need to participate in order rebuild ourselves. Russia cannot do this for us, unless we do it ourselves.
Russia should do whatever is in their interest. Without all the relevant classified military info, I am not going to make an armchair general recommendation about what operations and tactics they should use. But God is on their side against the Beast. The fools In Babylon on the Potomac will foul things up.
If the objective of the US is to stop NS2 and demonize Russia, they win no matter what Russia would do. If Russia stops Ukraine, and even destroys Ukrainian statehood it will be demonized. Otherwise Russia shall be demonized anyway and NS2 shall be stopped.
So, the US wins by the ability top control her vassal states, and the willingness of Ukrainians to fight because they hate Russia so much, thus not by military power.
Control over her vassal states won’t be able to stop the sinking titanic.
Saker,
I think I know the answer to the bonus question:
https://tass.com/defense/1276211
Russian Navy missile corvettes hold artillery firings in Black Sea
“The reconnaissance data obtained from an unmanned aerial vehicle of the Black Sea Fleet’s naval aviation and air defense forces were transmitted to a group of the Black Sea Fleet’s missile corvettes at sea. Upon receiving the scenario inject, the Graivoron and the Vyshny Volochyok moved to the designated area, detected and eliminated the notional enemy’s warship while it was carrying out illegal activities,” the statement says.”
I think that posters on here are underestimating the weakness of many western countries. Here in “The Shire” many parts of the state apparatus have ceased to function, or function effectively, because of the lockdowns. Many services can’t be accessed because public services like housing, social services etc are being run by workers working form home. Court fees and the like are difficult to pay.
The lockdowns have adversely affected supply chains around the world. It wouldn’t take much for the United Kingdom to experience a shortage of essential goods like food. The amount of support for government policies is being exaggerated by fake or distorted opinion polls (like in the run up to the US election).
To paraphrase Sun Tzu, “War is a moral contest and is won in the supermarkets before the first shot is fired.”
They already had supermarkets back in the days Sun Tze lived? Did they have checkout lines?
1) If it is true that the Russians have those nice weapons whay they don’t demonstrate their effects on targets in Ukraine?
What is the use of having the most advanced weapons that you don’t use?
2) “Thank” the Americans with the same coin: to offer modern weapons to Iran, Syria, Hesbollah, Taliban, Venezuela also to recover money from NS2 gas. Now You can take popcorn.
3) Stop cheap gas sales to the West and eliminate Ukrainian intermediary; a less competitive Germany will be a weaker Germany. Gas will be sold in China against rubles-yuan .
4) Let US and Ukrainian “win” in Donbass; with the same money they spend on war they can either bring the entire Russian population to Russia, because they have space, or create those famous lunar and martian bases 20 years before the Americans .
Was it Donald Trump who said, “What’s the point of all these nuclear weapons, if we never use them?”
@Rafael, @marcu
No. it was Hillary Clinton who said whats the point of having a big military if we dont use it. She, and not Trump, said she would not hesitate to use the military against Iran.
Hitlary Clitoris was also going for a US/Nato no fly zone in Syria, but it got a little more civilised thanks to Trump.
You have weapons to keep hostile people and criminals away, not for fighting wars.
Russia dont use gas, water and utilities as weapon, as it is against universal law to use civilians in a military fight.
Only you, and certain other (removed insults,MOD) countries have this idea.
Perhaps, it wasn’t Trump as you say, but a Trump campaign spokesperson Katrina Pierson said in 2015, “Why have nuclear weapons, if you are afraid to use them”. Although close to him, she clearly wasn’t Trump and indeed what she said could have been interpreted as a suggestion to get rid of nuclear weapons, though very unlikely. At that time Trump was floundering all over the place on nuclear weapons and his grasp of military matters would always shaky.
It was Madeleine Albright who asked “What’s the point of having this superb military that you’re always talking about if we can’t use it?”
The obvious answer to that is that defense is firstly about preventing war, that is, dissuading an enemy or potential enemy from attacking.
What makes it harder this time is that the “partners” are determined and desperate to fight Russia. Otherwise, it makes no sense for Russia to get involved beyond simply securing the situation in the Donbass.
My favorite story from the DPR was the one in which Zacharchenko agreed to release a group of captured conscripts, but only if their mothers would come get them.
After disarming them, sort them out and retain foreign operatives, mercenaries and spooks to be tried for their crimes, and return the conscripts to their mothers with a stern lecture.
The end game is Russia. It is false to argue that the main objective of the “Empire” is to have the EU obedient, ground NS2, and build yet another Iron Curtain. US intel/security apparatus holds enough compromising materials on EU politicians that a simple phone call will do to make them gentle & obedient puppets. Quite a few of them would most likely prefer to be vaporised rather than to have details of their filthy, disgusting & decadent exploits released. That would explain EU’s willingness to pick a fight with nuclear armed Russia – self preservation takes back seat to total shame/humiliation. There is a genuine belief in some US circles that nuclear war can be fought and won (ref. 2006 article “The Rise of US Nuclear Primacy”). The purpose of US warships in Black Sea is to serve as a tripwire and to convey a message that the US is willing to go nuclear should Russia intervene in Donbass. Again, the ultimate objective being a total Russian submission & withdrawal, followed by “regime change”, and culminating in a Yeltsin 2.0 era. The question is: will Russia intervene or submit? Time will show. We may soon find out who really holds power & influence in Russia – will it be the Western loving “Atlanticist Integrationists” or the more Patriotic “Eurasian Sovereignists”. Without making any predictions, all I can say is that the idea of unlimited luxury & opulence that a Yeltsin 2.0 era would bring for some may be very tempting, a much more preferable option to a life in a Mad Max style post apocalyptic landscape.
He who controls the airspace controls the war. Russian will control all the airspace. Done! I hope it doesn’t come to war as the ukrainian people don’t want war, just the crazy neocons in washington. The USA is a dying empire but even dying beasts can lash out and create mayham. The world will never be a safe place until the mafia government of the USA is dead and buried.
The US govt so disgusts me these days. (Expat here.) The Yanks deserve a good kick in the teeth any day now.
There are some things that we ought to worry about, and others about which we waste our time. The things concerning my life and family over which I have control or influence should command most of my attention. Those over which I have absolutely no control should be left in the hands of God.
I don’t worry about global warming and other issues such as that. God has said in Genesis:
“While the earth remains,
Seedtime and harvest,
And cold and heat,
And summer and winter,
And day and night
Shall not cease.”
That takes care of a lot of things I don’t have to worry about. Concerning the US, Russia and Ukraine, we need to understand that God knows EXACTLY what is going to happen, when it will happen, and how it will affect everything that exists. No matter what others may think, it is God who sets up nations, determines their duration, and then tears them down again. He sometimes uses one nation, even if it is evil, to punish or destroy another nation whose evil has become more than He will permit. Then later, the punishing nation itself is punished or destroyed.
Regardless of what you may have been taught, we didn’t come into existence, or evolve, because the earth was here. Rather, it came into existence by God’s power with us in His mind as the future inhabitants.
What does this mean? It means that whatever happens will not put an end to the earth, unless that’s what God wants. If He does, we can’t stop it. If He doesn’t want the earth to end, the US and a million nations like it can’t make it happen. Even so, eventually it will all come to an end. But until then, let’s just live our lives and see what happens. Perhaps God will surprise us with the outcome of this whole ordeal.
Meanwhile, we CAN have a meaningful influence. It comes through prayer.
“While the earth remains”
How many of xx harvests do we have left for our children to live free from hunger and desease?
Seedtime and harvest is a pretty new (10K seasons?) and very vulnerable and evolving, heavily hijacked concept.
Take that Ukraine furtile soil that can still hold water and sink carbon, protecting against floods and droughts. Holding back “climate change” as much as a rainforsest does or did according to some theories.
Turn it into dirt for enhanced agricultural multinational profits by selling chemicals and special seeds required to grow anything.
Ah, so your tank army can’t drive over the moist soil in April? Wait until it’s deprived from microorganisms, fungi or worms.
What is meant by the “earth remaining” other than the arible land in that verse?
Turn arible land into dirt -,for USA style agriculture, into pre-Nuclear War Mad Max wastelands requiring, to the delight of big agro businesses, massive amounts of water, fertilizer, pesticides and herbicides to grow mineral and nutrient deprived food for animals and humans alike. And less earth remains.
So yes, to aim prayings to counter this devilish plan is the least we could do.
Healthy soil means healthy animals, healthy crops and extended prayer time for all of all of us.
To see what happens and to not immediately regret, when the noticing it implies being too late to counteract,
you need to maintain open eyes to earthly processes that move under the radar of human sight, imagination, low education standards of modern farmers, the media and for which praying -sorry to say- does provide no urgently needed fix, at least not in the way I understand it.
Fixing the Ukraine means to prevent it to become playground of less Orthodox agricultural practices that always come with the “development” or rebuiltding.
Any 08.08.08 style intervention should aim to install and support a government that protects the land and wants to grow food everyone will prefer to import over GMO crap waiting to happen overthere.
Anglos won’t involve themself before oponent is devastated economicaly, moraly and deeply divided from within.
They never do. Even with 100X weaker victim.
They use every opportunity to push Rusia into wasting resources.To outspend it long before they actualy attack. Worked once on Soviets, so why to change?
Good example is NS2. Why they didn’t stop project in the begining?It would be easier, and everybody knew perfectly what’s involved even then. But no, they waited for Russia to invest billions and only then rushed to cancel it. When Russia tries to cut the losses and pull out they ease the pressure a bit. A soon work continues, random Navalny-like event happens out of the blue, and pressure is on again. Maximize cost, limit future profit if any. Devilishly clever.
Ukraine is similar only much more expensive. Economicaly, the worst possible scenario for Russia would be succesful “liberation” of Ukraine. Western stoges will be instructed to destroy everything and anything of any value.before escape. Who will support ruined population for years or decades before country get a grip?
Life in Ukraine will be much worse then before, only now, Russians will be responsible.
That would be win-win situation for Anglos, which is exactly what they try to achieve with apparently controversial moves.
Those ships that come and go, wild promisses and exotic weapons, have sole function to encourage mobilization of quite demoralized cannon fooder.
As for superheroic rhetoric from Ze and Co Ltd. … keep in mind there is NO Ukraine policy, no Ukraine rhetoric. Only NATO policy, only NATO rhetoric.
Just without NATO to fight its own battles. As some Loumouthed Shmuck once said:
“The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his.”
Anyway, best play for Russians is pure defense. Endure initial onslaught with minimal losses and to inflict maximum damage to attacker. Grind them down to a halt.
After that just chillout and enjoy the inevitable shitshow in Kiev.
Excellent summary analysis from Saker, and lots of good comments.
I agree that the hegemon targets more than just NS2 and increased demonisation of Russia.
Perhaps Transdniester is a simultaneous or next target, surely not though the impenetrable Kaliningrad fortress.
Perhaps Odessa will become a major NATO base in a planned US response, knowing that Crimea is now out of reach.
I am fairly sure that whatever 08-08-08 type distance/depth is achieved to secure LDNR, the hegemon will saturate the rest of (former) Ukraine as an ‘anti-Russian’ border state of extreme hostility.
Would love to hear Patrushev’s thoughts on Saker’s questions.
TEP.
Russia has three main objectives in any coming war in Ukraune:
1.Protect LNR and DNR.
2. Render ukronazi armed forces inoperable for long period.
3. Prevent Nato from establishing meaningful presence in Ukraine
To this I would add fourth objectives, which is:
4. Break western illusions and perceptions of weak Russia-superhuman Nato, and make them rethink their position toward Russia in the long term.
To achieve 1st. and 2nd objectives, a repetition of 08.08.08. war should have been sufficient.
To achieve 3rd and 4th objectives, I don’t see how that can be done without going all the way and occupying 90% of Ukraine.
And to be sure, Russia must have had something like that in mind, when re-creating 1st tank army. That sounds like a logical use for it.
Of course, I don’t know all the backstage dealings and finesse, Saker is expert in that area. But from my amateur standpoint, a full-scale attack and occupation of major part of Ukraine, followed by sound political solution of New Ukraine, is obvious way to go.
Electronic Warfare and Anti-Satellite systems now deployed?
This very serious development requires verification – but if true this would be a highly significant part of a growing picture of readiness for a major war (and yes, I do appreciate I may be added 2 + 2 and getting 5 but I will take the mockery just in case this is actually true).
Firstly the part which needs verification:
A “commercial satellite” company technician leaked on his Facebook page that last week (04-04-21) that one of the imagers looking at Ukraine was “flashed” (his word) by a bright light causing a short duration disruption of imaging, something typical of having a laser aimed at a camera sensor for a short duration, he said.
He also said that although the intensity was enough to overload the signal and cause temporary blindness (only a second or two) the intensity and duration were but not so great as to burn out / damage the imaging chip. The technician also expressed perplextion in his post as there would be no way someone with even one of the most powerful class 4 industrial lasers could hit an imaging sensor from the ground unless it was a lucky shot, so he asked people to suggest waht caused the flash.
OK, next is where 2+2 may become 5:
That little bit of information (if shown to be true as his facebook page is down, hmmm) has led me to believe that the temporarily blinding bright flash seen may actually have been a low power “warning shot” (for the benefit of the technicians bosses, and the bosses “customers”) from the Russian ‘Peresvet’ Laser Complex.
https://tass.com/defense/1034344
Contrary to popular belief, Peresevet is not just an anti-drone or anti-missile system. Like many Russian weapons it has many potential roles:
https://avia-pro.net/news/rossiyskiy-lazernyy-kompleks-peresvet-okazalsya-s-sekretnym-prednaznacheniem-pozvolyaet-sbivat
Such a warning “flash” may have also been given to US and UK military spy satellites / spy cameras to show that if (or perhaps when) any fighting starts there will be no satellite imagery available – either from military or commercial satelites – for the US/UK/NATO war planners to co-ordinate a real-time counter strike, or even just to have a real-time overview of in theatre developments.
Warning that the US/UK/NATO (and private companies) would have many $Billions of not easily replaced high-tech orbiting hardware blinded (if this fight starts) may act as a deterent.
Peresevet can aslo blind any ground based imaging senors (and submarine optics – including Human retinas) and even block or confuse laser-guided weapons systems.
Extrapolating from this, it is likely that Russia have already begun to “cover” the electronic warfare and satellite communication / targeting aspects of a conflict in Ukraine and the Black Sea, with other anti-satellite systems of various types (such as S500) and the orbital manuverable platform or “attack satelitte”:
https://www.spacecom.mil/MEDIA/NEWS-ARTICLES/Article/2285098/russia-conducts-space-based-anti-satellite-weapons-test/
Deployment of anti-surveilance or “enemy blinding” systems such as Peresevet are a logical and important step prior to open conflict.
It is interesting that the US has responded by deploying electronic warfare hardened (and capable) warships to the Black Sea and the Med.
It is also interesting that the recently “Kibini hardened” and very sophisticated Electronic warfare vessel the USS Donald Cook is coming back to the Black Sea:
https://tass.com/world/1276187
Now if HMS Duncan (the UKs most sophisticated electronic warfare capable warship) joins the Donald Cook at some point (or if it appears to the north in the Baltic) then we can expect to see NATO display its electronic warfare capability too. HMS Duncan is recognised by the Russians to have highly advanced and classified capability:
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/royal-navy-destroyer-swarmed-by-17-russian-jets-in-black-sea/
Let us keep our eyes peeled for social media footage or leaked pictures of Peresevet deployments around both Crimea and St Petersberg (or Kaliningrad).
The deployment of both Russian and NATO electronic warfare and anti-satelite systems are very strong indicators that the fight in Ukraine will not be a Russian-Ukrainian fight, but will involve Russia fighting the US and UK too (it appears the other NATO members including Turkey want any part of this war if / when it comes).
The British and Americans have been preparing for this war for a long time, and it appears the time to bring NATO to Ukraine – if not Ukraine into NATO – is now.
PS,
Some declassified ‘light’ reading from our friends in NATO (for those who relish in such things):
https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/publications/pr-19-1004-russian-military-thought-concepts-elements.pdf
thank you for a most interesting post.
A very pessimistic opinion piece was just published by southfront:
Russian-Ukrainian War: Tragedy for People, Chance for Elites
https://southfront.org/russian-ukrainian-war-tragedy-for-people-chance-for-elites/
I don’t agree with these statements:
“There is almost a zero probability that Ukraine will suffer a crushing defeat and the DLPR forces will occupy the territory to the Dnieper River. Russia now has neither the strength nor the ability to gain control over such a vast territory, and the collective West, in its turn, would not let this happen.”
“A new war near the Russian borders that involves national armed forces will have an important impact on the internal situation in the country. It is not clear to what extent the Russian society, which has suffered the break of economic relations with Western countries and numerous sanctions, is ready to support the struggle for Donbass.”
I’m quite surprised by these assumptions which shows editorial ignorance about RF’s military strength, leadership, economy, its citizens’ mindset and history.
It’s all a (removed language,MOD) show , bunch of assholes wanting more power and resources
While the Elites might have forgotten the lessons of WW2 (it is easy for them since even in defeat they do not suffer the consequences much), the populations of the EU, who suffer the brunt of the consequences of war win or lose, have not. Even in the US, just before the Iraq war of of 2003, there were massive demonstrations against going to war. To no avail of course. The problem is that peopke of the West have virtually no say in State policy domestic or foreign (see Gilens and Page: https://lwvaustin.org/publications/Money%20in%20Politics/Gilens%20&%20Page%20article%20summary.pdf). People in the West are almost as hostage as populations of targeted or subjugated countries. The current state of affairs in the US is case in point. Millions going destitute, no healthcare amid a historic pandemic, with mass shootings an almost daily occurrence and massive political decoherence.
So to answer your question, hell yeah Russia should follow a similar playbook to the Georgian imbroglio. Nothing much to lose at this point. What we are seeing now in the Black sea is the US getting its checkers in place thinking it can do a multiple jump and forgetting just because the board looks the same, that does not mean it is a game of checkers. Meanwhile, Russia is playing its usual Gary Kasparov end game before mating the West’s King as it has done many times before. Alas, we know the neo-cons will simply bring out a new checker-board with different colored squares and double down insisting that everyone play checkers.
One would have liked that Andrey Martianov had shared more widely this information himself:
@http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/
КИЕВ, 9 апр — РИА Новости. “Освобождение” Донбасса силовым путем приведет к массовой гибели мирного населения и военнослужащих, а это неприемлемо для Киева, заявил главнокомандующий Вооруженными силами Украины Руслан Хомчак. “Будучи преданным общечеловеческим ценностям и нормам международного гуманитарного права, наше государство на первое место ставит жизнь своих граждан”, — цитирует его пресс-центр Генштаба. По словам Хомчака, украинские власти считают политико-дипломатический путь урегулирования ситуации в Донбассе приоритетным.
Translation: “Liberation” of Donbass by power means will lead to mass loss of life among civilians and military personnel–this is unacceptable for Kiev, stated the Commander of the Ukrainian Armed Forces Ruslan Khomchak. “Being dedicated to universal human values and norms of humanitarian law, our state places the life of its citizens on the first place, the press-center of Ukraine’s General Staff quotes him. In accordance to Khomchak, Ukrainian political power considers political and diplomatic way of settlement around Donbass to be a priority’.
Maybe you can translate this too:
”Зеленский выступил за перемирие в Донбассе”
Google translation,MOD.
“Zelensky spoke for a truce in Donbass”
Now let’s look at what Andrei Martyanov really said:
Translation: “Liberation” of Donbass by power means will lead to mass loss of life among civilians and military personnel–this is unacceptable for Kiev, stated the Commander of the Ukrainian Armed Forces Ruslan Khomchak. “Being dedicated to universal human values and norms of humanitarian law (I am under the table trying to get up….), our state places the life of its citizens on the first place (I tried to get up, fell again…)”, the press-center of Ukraine’s General Staff quotes him. In accordance to Khomchak, Ukrainian political power considers political and diplomatic way of settlement around Donbass to be a priority (I am still lying under the table, LOL).
He is rather mocking Zelensky – we’ve heard all that before.
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2021/04/another-day-another-tune.html
We should let Martianov tell us exactly what he said and why and explain why he asked:
”What happened and how this could be, that mighty Ukraine and her US handlers suddenly want to prioritize “political and diplomatic way”?
Because what followed is that the cowardly and inhumane Russians, taking Ze’s statement above for weakness and sign that their the sheer sight of unilateral Russian military build up had broken the will of life valueing defenders of remainder free & democracy aspiring Ukraine, …attacked?
See title of this article.
Hey Amarynth- here is the second paragraph of Andrei’s great article – – I was over there and saw that he said this at the end –
Now, jokes aside. A couple of the US Navy ships which should enter the Black Sea soon will be there primarily for recon mission and, possibly, in case the shit hits the fan, providing some data to Ukies. They will be big fat targets for the Russian Navy and attached forces, so I do not expect any serious conflagration, especially with Ukraine having shifted into a rear gear. And now that Ukraine’ clown (aka President) is calling for a truce in Donbass (in Russian), one can clearly see that massive military power can decide a lot of issues and be a guarantor of a peace. This, however, doesn’t resolve Ukraine’s issue but this latest shitstorm gives Russia a good justification for an accelerated integration of LDNR with Russia, while keeping this whole clusterfuck of a situation frozen, which suites Russia just fine for now. As I said, Russia and Russians DON’T care about Ukraine and Ukrainians anymore and that is the only thing, in the end, which matters under these circumstances because, eventually, this Nazi shithole of a country Delenda Est.
If … I repeat IF Banderistan goes in massive attack, Russia have four options,
First, if Ukro Army shows that it is very strong, then LDNR should focus only to defense its current territory, and to inflict huge losses to Ukro Army and BAnderistan not to achieve eny succes. This would have devastating consequences to Banderistan
Second, if Banderistan action is limited to LDNR, then defend LDNR and if it is possible to counter attack and to liberate entire Doneck and Lugansk regions. This is to be done without open military intervention by Russian Army. Only intelligence assistance and perhaps to close sky above LDNR for any Banderistan military flights. This would also have devastating consequences to Banderistan, more than in first case.
Third, if attack is more serious and if they provoke Russian Army in Russian border to go and liberate entire Novorussia all to the Romanian border and to establish new government in Novorussia which would declare itself as as a legitimate government of entire Ukraine.
This would destroy Banderistan. Banderistan could not survive this.
Fourth, if everything goes very smoothly and if Belarus agre to assists Russia, then Russian Army can go and liberate Kiev and overthrow Banderistan freaks from the power completely and to establish new government. I suppose that Russia has such a people in Ukraine that could take over Kiev.
Then Russian Army to leave Ukraine and to leave them to govern Ukraine by themselves and Russia can provide certain help and aid to new Ukraine government.
In all these scenarios Russia should avoid going into West Ukraine Banderistan regions. Just corral them around and leave them … maybe Poles want them.
Yes the West would react hysterically and NS2 would be stopped … Russia would be pushed back economically but if major war happen it is not the worst thing to happen.
And after Russia leave Ukraine after a some time even the West would have to accept new reality and new Ukraine.
And interest would prevail and NS2 would be continued and completed sooner or later. Russia woukld be pushed back several years in development but it would be the price which would have to be payed.
It would be the best if all of this does not happen because Russia has crucially important economic projects to do, but this situation between Russia and the West cannot go forever.
Maybe, if Russia shows its teeth and military might would be sobering for America and West.
Maybe all this mess is just Empire and BAnderists bluff to provoke Russia to invade Ukraine and to start the war … I believe that this is exactly the case this time. Russia must not take the bait.
We will see what happens next.
I think that ‘if Belarus agree to assist Russia’ is a moot question. Belarus is obligated to ‘assist’ Russia if Russia is attacked.
Maybe…
But do you really trust Lukasenko?
I don’t…
I disagree, respectfully. After launching a strike package of Kalibrs and Kh-101’s to neutralize Ukrainian Command and Control, airbases, SBU etc, the VDV Corps should be inserted around Kiev by a massive airborne incursion to cut off and take the city. Meanwhile troops based in Krim push east towards Odessa and the Tank Armies push to the Dnipro River from both Belarus axis and from Lugansk axis and Donetsk axis. A simultaneous classical amphibious assault just to the west of Mariupol by the Russian Marines would leave the UAF in complete disarray and panic.
I agree…. STAVKA is waiting….
INDY
All fine and dandy, except that Odessa is to the West (Zapad) of Krim.
Yes, Odessa is west of the Deniepr, and on the coast. It is a port, and hosts Ukraine’s only oil refinery.
That is why an amphibious / airborne assault is prognosticated by the poster.
This would of course, be in open terrain with proximity to the river, so resupply by sea is possible.
That said, none of us know Russia’s plan of attack.
So, don’t read too much into this proposal.
INDY
Hello from Tehran. The problem is if Russia gets too much involved with Ukraine, then this is what the US and its partners really wanted to happen from the beginning and Moscow will face a long-term trouble along its western regions. Therefore, like said before, today, wars are useless unless one hits the main root cause of all the troubles and that is to take away the United States and its allies her privilege status with the dollar as the world’s trade currency and the Swift, IMF and other financial structures. Russia could do that along with help of countries like China, Iran, Venezuela and many other who do not say it loudly but will come along once it becomes serious.
Thinking aloud:
1. Washington is bad at military, good at psychological/media operations.
2. It will only get involved in wars it can win (Grenada, Irak, Libya).
3. There aim is not expansion (they know they have already lost), but securing/contention what is left.
4. The EU and ASEAN are to be disciplined by creating a spectacle of bad Russians and bad Chinese, bad Iranians.
5. Pandemics, psychological brainwashing , censorship, sanctions, black flag ops, etc are the tools of the Empire (US plus lapdog UK). The Empire controls Western Media and they define truth to their liking for Western audiences.
6. The Empire is solely based on the universal acceptance of the Dollar and its acceptance is being questioned since it became a tool for sanctions, economic isolation and destabilization.
7. The Empire will fail eventually due to it own poilitical and economic issues.
8. While the Empire dies by natural death, Russia and China should restrict themselves to solely secure their immediate domains (as defined by them) and ignore all placed traps by the Empire. In the case of Ukraine solely protecting/securing Russian speaking & Russians residing in Ukranian autonomous lands.
Cheers from France.
I think Russia should tell Europe that we have no interest in taking part in the war, and they shouldn’t. However they should give them the stipulation that, IF you people blame us falsely in your fake media once again as ‘invading’ and taking part in the war for the purpose of cancelling NS2 then we WILL actually enter it. So they should wait and see and then if that happens and there are reports all over MSM of “Russian troops are invading Ukraine, the Russian such and such 20th army is already in Donetsk etc etc” then Russia should just invade because at that point it doesn’t matter since the West is going to use the fake reports to cancel NS2 anyway.
With that said I don’t think any war will actually happen. I think Ukies will back down as usual.
It will not happen. Europe has learned Bismark’s lesson at the school of hard knocks: never attack Russia. Three times in 200 years they tried believing in her weakness, with the same results. But if they behave they can go there anytime and have good time. Russians are basically hospitable.
I think that Russia needs to be cautious: Consider who is in Biden’s cabinet, russophobes who believe in US omnipotence & beneficence. Biden has just kicked a hornet’s nest called ‘gun control in the USA’. Besides being old & tired, he’s going to be busy. So some of the hired help will make the decisions: Pass the cookies, eh! Russian forces should not set foot outside the republics. Russian forces don’t need to; medium range missiles can decapitate the Ukrainian army. Without leadership the Ukrainian army will dissolve into militias. Zelensky will be finished & probably a bloody struggle for control in Kiev. When this current round of trouble got started, it was said that the US was planning distractions on other places on the edge of Russia. If it was ‘Erdo’, he seems to be busy cleaning up another ‘coup’. Maybe another reason to be careful.
Saker
You ask whether we can find a logical military rationale for the US sending warships into the Black Sea. I can think of only one. You and others remind us regularly that, over the last decade and more, the US has lost military supremacy to Russia. I presume that the US would like very much to win back that supremacy. To do so, it seems to me, one of the things it must do is understand the nature and extent of the gap in military capability that has opened up, so that they can plan sensibly to close that gap. What better way to do so than to encourage a war between Ukraine and Russia while the US has a ringside seat in the Black Sea from which to gather all sorts of very useful intelligence? This assumes that those US warships will not themselves become military targets. So, if the preceding comments are plausible, I assume that US military chiefs have already, in conversations with their counterparts in Russia, made it clear that, within certain boundary conditions, they are not at all interested in direct military engagement with Russian forces. Thanks once again for the informative discussion that you are making possible. As they say, sunlight is the best disinfectant. Cheers.
The Ukraine is militarily so much weaker compared to US/NATO or Russia that a war between Russia and Ukraine probably wouldn’t give the US that much new insights. In a Ru vs UA war the Russians wouldn’t need to expose secret/unknown capabilities because they can do without. Or they could apply tactics that wouldn’t work against an adversary like the US.
Nobody knows what RF’s war aims are regarding Ukraine if and when intervention is required, and with that caveat in mind:
Should Russia repeat the 08.08.08 scenario if the Ukronazis attack?
To answer the Saker’s question: Absolutely. If and when the RF moves, the first blow should be hard enough to stop UAF in its tracks and force it to its knees. To paraphrase the memorable words of a military analyst, ‘hard enough to tear its arm off.’
Bonus question: the ships detached from the Caspian Flotilla suggests an amphibious operation somewhere. I would like to think that they will be used to support operations against Mariupol or at least threaten it or isolate it from the the Ukraine. Mariupol is important to the Ukrainians — it has a port, airport and several important industries and it contributes substantially to Ukraine’s income. A credible threat to Mariupol will play heavily on Ukrainian minds; they may have to move forces from the Lugansk/Donetsk front proper and thus relieve the pressure on the defenders. Gaining it will give LDNR a major victory militarily and symbolically — and an opposite effect on the Ukrainians — and RF a strategic foothold across the Sea of Azov. LDNR can’t do it alone of course and it can only be done with RF’s help, hence my hopes for the employment of the ships.
Two US Aegis ships are too small to be a threat to RF. Maybe they’re part of the Nato exercise that’s on at the moment.
Moldova is in a bind with regard to Transnistria. I don’t think it’ll do anything to poke RF with although it will come under tremendous pressure from FUKUS/Nato to upset the status quo. Unless the Ukraine is stupid enough to even contemplate invading a small, neutral country on its west — Transnistria is regarded as being on Moldovan territory — and raise the ire of Europe, Transnistria is, for want of a better phrase, quite safe.
Ukraine will attempt the trophy of the new bridge and probably some mischief in Sea of Azov.
West will send reactors on Dniepner critical and that seems a fairly logical extension of the MSM Chernobyl priming these past few years.
I think the idea is to start the war, blow the reactors, blame Russia, fracture UN, and destroy the advantage of Crimea, add further to global health hysteria, bring in marshal law in West and then compulsory injected.
My fear too…
Unfortunately thats the only “ace” up their sleeves.
Nuclear war with plausible deniability.
I made a fee comments on that in these threads but I dont see hardly anyone taking it seriously.
Its hard to comprehand that for a psychopath this choice is top of the list.
What would be the way to preempt this?
Airborne assault? Then a land rush to the sites?
Maybe dooable in some simulation, in reality- pretty hard.
Two plants are too far to the west even if they manage to take three that are closer.
I do hope you are wrong, as melting nuclear reactors would be a threat to mankind. Otoh some postulate that ((())) already had their hand on fukushima, and wouldnt put it past ((())) to melt krayina if it suited their purpose.
Re martial law i think by now nothing can move couch potatoes from sofa to fight a war, nor any kind of forced vaccination could be expected.
With the current experimental status read somewhere not even the us military can force it on its troops, with over 1 third refusing.
Unfortunately, relations between Russia and the West (thanks to the western idiots-in-charge) reached level, where Russia is damned if she does, damned if she doesn’t. So Vladimir Vladimirovitch may not have other choise but to repeat 08.08.08 despite the PR consequences in the western media. But, on the other hand, if the russians have been led to a position where they have no other choice but to openly intervene in Donbass with their military, I doubt they’d care about what the western press-titutes think or say on the subject.
Yes, that means that they could be cut off from SWIFT – but by now they’ve established other means of payment with the countries in the East (those with the workforce and the factories, which the american idiots moved there to decrease the cost of production). And I believe, the russians already stated that they’re willing to sell their hydrocarbons and (downgraded, of course) military hardware for currencies other than the mighty USD (they already do it with China and Iran) – Russia exports very little beside (but import even less).
Yes, it means that Nord Stream 2 would be cancelled for good, but the people seems to forget that NS2 is just means to an end (to deliver cheap hydrocarbons to Germany), not the end itself – even if NS2 is cancelled, Germans would have to live with less of them (they’ll still have NS1). And it will hit the Germans much harder than the Russians – cancelling that pipeline simply means that gazprom will divert the volume to China. And no – the Союз and Братство pipelines won’t be reopened – I wonder, has anyone noticed that those two pipelines go through Poland too and by cutting them off, russians deprived both Ukraine and Poland from transition fees, but more importantly – deprived two american lapdogs from leverage, which they could use to blackmail the Germans at their US master’s order.
So, while Russians won’t attack first, they’ll make sure that they’ll finish the skirmish – given the difference between the two militaries, even with NATO support, it hardly deserves to be labeled “war”. And, because the westerners really can’t learn from their mistakes – they are doomed to repeat them – in 2008 Georgians attached russian peacekeeping force in South Ossetia after they received assurances from US and Turkey, that they’ll get support. And they’ve got it, BTW – black PR in western mass- media, which is completely irrelevant on the battlefield, when one of the sides in the skirmish are the russians.
The ultimate problem is the US and its attitudes towards Russia. Any strategy must not only protect the Eastern Ukraine Russian population, and eliminate the Ukranazi threat for the foreseeable future, but diminish the US pressure.
The US needs to be put in a position from which it is clear that its power to intervene is diminished and its claims to be protecting anything are mere empty words. The war needs to diminish US credibility and capability to engage in Europe.
Therefore, any war should also advance the project of pulling the fangs of the Anglozionist entity. Until this is done the war between the West and Russia will continue indefinitely. Any war that cannot contribute to this is shortsighted for achieving all of the goals above will not alter the fundamental problem.
About 2 ago, saker told us about a fictionnal book (written by a druid) were US suffer a major defeat after attacking an African country.
I hope that Russia, China, and Iran are right now planning a general offensive. A lot of manpad to Taliban. Houthi striking hard the petro-dollar-monarchy, Iraki militia destroying many more US convoy. China openly preparing blocus of Taiwan and selling many billion of US treasury bond, effective planning to replace the franc CFA, cutting the french strategic continuum in Africa, delivering hypersonic missiles to Algeria… etc…
The western dog will bark so loud about so many subject that nobody will hear anything.
And of course pushing hard an hiden agenda.
“About 2 ago, saker told us about a fictionnal book (written by a druid) were US suffer a major defeat after attacking an African country.”
Twilight’s Last Gleaming
John Michael Greer
If Ukraine makes the first aggression against Donbass, I think that would be good pretext for Russia to occupy all of Ukraine except the far western galician provinces.
The current U.S. puppet regime should be driven off to Galicia and a Russian client regime installed in Ukraine under Russian military occupation.
This would be like U.S. in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The long term goal should be direct annexation of Ukraine into Russia.
Heads up to amarynth for the link to Andrei Martyanov’s latest blog post:
https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2021/04/another-day-another-tune.html
He posted a link to the original article:
https://ria.ru/20210409/peremirie-1727618308.html
Based on Yandex machine translation (with some grammar and spelling tidying up by me):
—–
Zelensky called for a truce in the Donbass
MOSCOW, 9 APR-RIA Novosti.
President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky says a new truce is needed in Ukraine after visiting the contact line in Donbass.
The head of state wrote on Facebook that shots fired on the front line have become “dangerously commonplace.”
“After several months of observing a full and general ceasefire, we have returned to the need to establish a truce,” Zelensky said.
As the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Ruslan Khomchak emphasized earlier, the military option of “liberating” the Donbass is unacceptable for Kiev, as it is fraught with casualties among the civilian population and military personnel. At the same time, last week he said that the Ukrainian armed forces will strengthen the grouping of troops in the Donbass and in the Crimean direction — in response to the “build-up” of Russian forces on the border with Ukraine.
The situation in the Donbas
The civil confrontation in the Donbas has been going on for seven years, with about 13,000 victims. The settlement is discussed at the meetings of the contact group in Minsk. Its participants adopted several documents aimed at resolving the conflict, but shootouts continue.
A comprehensive ceasefire came into effect in July 2020. However, since February, the situation in the south-east began to deteriorate: there was an attempt on the life of a battalion commander of the DPR people’s militia, shelling became more frequent and fighting intensified. In April, the DPR reported the death of a child after a Ukrainian UAV hit. In addition, according to the LPR people’s militia, for the first time since the end of July, the Ukrainian armed forces used artillery to attack the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic [and] Luhansk People’s Republic.
Last week, US President Joe Biden assured his Ukrainian counterpart Volodymyr Zelensky that the United States will continue to support Ukraine “in the face of Russian aggression in the Donbas and Crimea.” The Russian Foreign Ministry called the talk about a potential conflict between Russia and Ukraine another fiction of Kiev.
—–
Also of interest to this thread, some pushback from the German ambassador in Washington:
—–
Anti-Russian sanctions should be well-measured — German ambassador
https://tass.com/world/1276311
“The United States is importing pretty [much] as much crude oil from Russia as Germany imports gas. So, is one fossil fuel bad and the other fossil fuel – good?” she said. “We need to find ways to mitigate or allay concerns.”
Well, Kremlin officials, Putin himself, have repeated on numerous occasions that Russia will not allow the Donbass/LDNR to fall to Ukro military aggression, & that in the event of such aggression Russia will intervene & that this in turn may well spell the end of Ukrainian statehood. So the answer to the question for the thread was answered in advance by those with ultimate authority – Russia will intervene & self-evidently the Kremlin assessed long ago that it is in Russia’s essential national interests to preserve the LDNR. For me, the key question is what does the LDNR mean to the Kremlin – other than the obvious, a historic Russian territory (which can be said for all of Ukraine, including Galicia). I believe this is the most important & most intriguing question – to which there are numerous answers. For the Kremlin, I suspect the LDNR represents a gateway for the eventual liberation of historic Novorossiya/Malorossiya. In the longer term it is, in my view, essential for Russia to integrate in some manner, historic Russian territories that remain populated by ethnic Russians. Strategically it is also important for Russia to gain control over the northern Black Sea coastline, to secure Crimea for all time, & to establish a direct land link to Trans-Dniestr. That means a territory spanning from Harkov in the east, to Mauriopol, to Nikolaev, to Odessa & eventually Tiraspol. The issue of Donbass is therefore much greater than the territory of the Donbass itself, it is the key the future of Russia’s western frontier. This is not about re-forming the old Russian Empire or resurrecting the Soviet Union, Russia does not need within its borders locations such as Azerbaijan, or Turkmenistan, or the Baltic states for that matter. It is the Russian ethnos that is critical, its territories must be secured, if not incorporated into Russia eventually, than as allied/federated states such as Belarussia that identify themselves as ethnically Russian.
Re-integrating Novorossia into the CSTO, which includes Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, Lughansk, Donesk, Zaporizhia, Kherson, Mykolaiv, and Odessa Oblasts, secures the entire Black Sea Coast, all regions east of the Denipr, and makes it impossible for NATO to put missiles within a pre-emptive range of Moscow.
The above are those regions with strong Russian ethnicity.
I personally do not believe Russia will integrate Novorossia into the Russian Federation. Instead, Novorossia will be incorporated into the CSTO security framework, and Novorossia, itself, will claim to represent the legitimate government of Ukraine…. sans NATO/EU affiliation and debts run up by the Putschists. The debts will be claimed to be the responsibility of the US because it was the US which instigated and financed the coup.
The goal will be to make Ukraine in-digestible for NATO.
Again, these are my views, and not official views of Novorossia, Russia, or anyone else.
INDY
Ukraine’s military on Friday said it would not launch an offensive against pro-Russia separatists controlling two regions in the country’s east, as fears grow of a major escalation in the long-running conflict.
“The liberation of the temporarily occupied territories by force will inevitably lead to the death of a large number of civilians and casualties among the military, which is unacceptable for Ukraine,” Ruslan Khomchak, chief of the general staff of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, said in a statement.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/world/ukraines-military-rules-out-offensive-against-pro-russia-separatists/ar-BB1ftBCZ
However, this has not been confirmed by the political leadership, nor by NATO. Maybe Ze will make the generals who issued this statement into field marshalls.
Actions always speak louder than words. I will believe the danger of another war has subsided when I see the UAF forces return to their bases.
Quickly get in and back out? If this were Georgia, I would say yes, indeed. But this is not Georgia. This is a state bordering directly with Russia within 400miles of Moscow, a failed state that is being preyed on by NATO, a power that wants desperately to occupy Ukraine so it can place missiles there in preparation for a quick first strike capability against Russia.
From Russia’s standpoint, I can not accept that this is about the Donbas or Crimea, though they are certainly major components of the Russian policy there, certainly from a PR perspective. No, this is about the protection of Mother Russia against what they consider an existential threat – NATO missile placements. Such a massive build-up in forces dwarfs anything they did in 2014 when it was just the Donbas and Crimea at risk. Since 2014 NATO has become involved and has sent very clear signs since then that they want to become more involved in Ukraine, now even making noises about allowing Ukraine to join. This is a lie, of course – I doubt they would ever accept Ukraine as a member under present circumstances. But this is yet another small step towards justifying more weapons shipments to Ukraine, more training, and ultimately to allow NATO forces, including missiles into the country.
Many believe NATO is making all these noises to give the Ukies the courage to invade Donbas or Crimea and get the Russians to attack so that Russia would then be subject to more sanctions and possibly even cancellation of NordStream II. I don’t believe this. I think they are doing this believing that Russia will not pull the trigger on an attack unless the Ukies do it first and that they can convince the Ukies that Russia backed down because the threat of a NATO alliance with Ukraine scared them off, thus convincing Ukraine that NATO is needed to keep the Russians at bay. They are hoping for another political solution like Minsk XXX when the Russians back down that will open the door for them to take an even more active role in Ukraine in the near future. Russia sees this clearly, I think, and has already made the decision to attack Ukraine – perhaps by May when the ground is dried? Now they are amassing their forces and preparing for the campaign ahead.
Quick in and quick out? No, not if Russian survival is at stake. They will likely take everything east of Kyiv and leave the Nazi West to be devoured by Poland and Hungary (or just wither and die in their own Nazi excrement), thus permanently eliminating any possibility of a NATO presence near Moscow. They are more than willing to take the public relations heat over such an issue.
Pretty much my sentiments. Will also add that the potential of Ukraine as a military power and threat far exceeds that of Georgia. It has strategic depth that Georgia doesn’t, it has potential industry, and a much larger population, it borders nato states, and strategically important borders with Russia and Belorussia. So I don’t think an in-and-out makes sense nor is prudent. If it comes to direct hostilities, then Russia will have crossed the rubicon and there is no going back to the ante bellum status quo.
If Russia establishes a new line on the dniepr and let’s the rest of Ukraine just disintegrate, then that will create a new more dangerous situation on the new border that the west will exploit to destabilize eastern Ukraine indefinitely, and now using non state actors there…think Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya. So Russia will have tactically solved the situation in Donbas, but strategically will be in nonstop conflict on its western front; not really a solution.
In my mind, if one is going to go kinetic, then achieve some strategic political solution. Secure the western border of Ukraine immediately (to prevent nato from deploying to Ukraine and creating a safe zone or Syrian situation), mop up resistance in Ukraine, rebuild it into a stable province, or whatever the Russians want to do with it, and bring in Chinese investment to do the heavy lifting. Win win.
“ and strategically important borders with Russia and Belorussia”
By this I mean it’s one massive salient in a Russian defensive front in conventional warfare terms. As a historical analogue, think the Kursk salient in wwii, only this time we have the whole of Europe plus the USA backing the nazis. As you’ve said so may times, Saker, this is an existential war. I believe victor above is correct; the Russians have decided to press on regardless of the current ukie posturing and this is going to go kinetic. If that’s the case, then there will be no in and out; the Russians will absorb the Ukraine. Then if the USA wants to place their missiles, they’ll have to put them in Slovakia, or Hungary ( yes they are already putting them in Poland and Romania, but will Hungary and Slovakia just roll over and accept them with the Russian army now on their border? Will nato keep their missiles in PL and RO With the Russians just across the border? We’ll see).
Many do not know this but the Cuban missile crisis was actually triggered by the US putting missiles in turkey (I have this from a first hand source). The ussr reciprocated by putting missiles in Cuba. And the final deal was that the ussr removed theirs, but the US also removed theirs.
Now, the US has destroyed the IMF. And, it’s developing med. range missiles. Russia would be able to put their counter missiles right there on the borders of the EU after absorbing the Ukraine. Checkmate. Could the occupation of the Ukraine, and a possible Russian reciprocal installation of med range missiles be a gambit to force nato back into a new IMF treaty? Or a move to pry much of Eastern Europe away from nato due to the proximity of russian forces right across the border? Would that be successful? Maybe not, but never say never. But I can’t help but think that joining nato was all fun and games, and prestigious for Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, (forget Poland, they’re hopeless), as long as Ukraine stood between Russia and them. But if Ukraine disappeared? As is said, countries don’t have permanent friends, only permanent interests.
Mr.Saker ,as I see that problems look like when RF informed US about situation at UA and ended any another discussion about it , US starting pulling back from direct confrontation to media war which is the easy way for them to all the time talking about RF in a bad way. This way they want stop NS 2 ,which is the primary goal of US government-NLG lobbyists.
A new range of possibilities to explain the fervid ‘activities’ on the Ukrainian front are open by the communiqué of the TASS Agency:
”BEIJING, April 8. / TASS /. The US government should provide the international community with comprehensive information about the experiments that they are carrying out in the US military biological laboratories in Ukraine and at Fort Detrick. This was announced on Thursday at a regular briefing by the official representative of the PRC Foreign Ministry Zhao Lijian.
“We hope that the respective countries and the United States will take a responsible and open position, begin cooperation with the World Health Organization and invite its experts to carry out scientific research to find the sources of the coronavirus in the United States, as China did earlier. I noticed that Russia is not so long ago questioned the United States about its military and biological activities in Fort Detrick and in Ukraine. Other countries have also expressed similar concerns, “he said. “Take Ukraine, for example. The US has created 16 biological laboratories in Ukraine alone. Why is the US creating so many laboratories around the world, and what does it do there, including in Fort Detrick,” he asked.
An official representative of the PRC Foreign Ministry stressed that the United States is the only country that still blocks the creation of a verification mechanism under the 1972 Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction. “We again call on the United States to take a responsible position and respond to the concerns of the world community, as well as provide comprehensive explanations of what they are doing in these laboratories, as well as respond to requests to create a verification mechanism for such activities,” he said.
The Walter Reed Army Research Institute is located in Fort Detrick, Maryland. It is run by the Pentagon and conducts biomedical research, including infectious diseases.
About US biolaboratories
In April 2020, a number of Ukrainian TV channels, including “1 + 1” and Newsone, reported that American military biological laboratories were operating in Ukraine, where experiments with pathogens of dangerous infectious diseases were carried out. In the same month, Verkhovna Rada deputies – the head of the political council of the Opposition Platform – For Life (Opposition Platform – For Life) party (Opposition Platform – For Life) Viktor Medvedchuk and Renat Kuzmin – reported that they had sent requests to government bodies demanding a report on the work of 15 American biological laboratories in the country.
They recalled that in August 2005, the Ukrainian Ministry of Health and the US Department of Defense signed an agreement on cooperation in preventing the proliferation of technologies, pathogens and knowledge that can be used to develop biological weapons. The document provides for the collection and storage of all dangerous pathogens on Ukrainian territory in laboratories funded by Washington, and also obliges, at the request of the American side, to transfer copies of dangerous strains to the United States for further research.
Medvedchuk believes that the facilities in Ukraine that are subordinate to the Pentagon and carry out their assigned tasks are de facto US military bases, which is expressly prohibited by article 17 of the Ukrainian constitution. The HLE also expressed suspicions that laboratories could become the source of epidemics in the country, but they were rejected by the American embassy. In addition, the party found that the diplomatic mission was trying to hide information about the work in Ukraine of two centers engaged in the study of pathogens dangerous to humans.
The original text of this piece is available at this link. Given all the scuttlebutt about COVID-19, and its curious way of affecting the Americans most of all, this piece of news adds some intrigue to a situation that is already extremely murky and politicized. We cannot properly offer evaluation of this without more information, but it is worth it for people who do not speak Russian or Ukrainian to know that this is an ongoing story.”
See the declarations of Dimitri Patrushev related by Pepe Escobar in his recent post
“On US bio-labs: “I suggest that you pay attention to the fact that numbers of biological laboratories under US control are growing by leaps and bounds across the world. And – by a strange coincidence – mainly at the Russian and Chinese borders … Of course, we and our Chinese partners have questions. We are told that there are peaceful sanitary and epidemiological stations near our borders, but for some reason they are more reminiscent of Fort Detrick in Maryland, where Americans have been working in the field of military biology for decades. By the way, it is necessary to pay attention to the fact that outbreaks of diseases uncharacteristic of these regions are recorded in the adjacent areas.”
Recall the stories in 2017 about the US DOD collecting DNA and tissue samples for Russian ethnic groups all across Russia.
Putin stated “Do you know that biological material is being collected all over the country, from different ethnic groups and people living in different geographical regions of the Russian Federation? The question is – why is it being done? It’s being done purposefully and professionally. We are a kind of object of great interest,” Putin told Russia’s Human Rights Council, without specifying who might be behind the activities involving Russians’ biological samples. “Let them do what they want, and we must do what we must,” he said.”
@Perimetr
Why did the Russian govt allow the Americans to collect them in the first place? There’s no point of blaming anyone if you let your enemies make moves.
There is a lot of discussion of stand-off weapons. Anyone here know how many and what type of weapons Russia possesses? Is the information widely known and accurate, or is it a military secret. Sometimes it seems to me, a non-expert, that the only useful military hardware in the future will be missiles and infantry. I would think a wise choice for many countries would be to build as many missiles as humanly possible.
So what do you think? Should Russia repeat the 08.08.08 scenario if the Ukronazis attack?
Yes and no.
YES, Moscow should:
*Destroy all Nazi & NATO infrastructure, heavy weapons, bases, and leadership they can find.
*Proactively impose sanctions on the West, especially Boeing, Airbus, SWIFT, CNN, and others that defame and/or cause real harm against Russians.
*Obey international law
*Rebuild, with Chinese investment, Novorossia into the industrial powerhouse it once was.
NO, Moscow should not:
*Use false flag incident to justify war
*Deliberately carpet bomb civilians
*Engage in petulant moral equivalence propaganda that Westerners use
PS: bonus question: check out these two news items:
Russia is transferring 10 amphibious and artillery ships of Caspian Flotilla to the Black Sea Fleet.
US Mulls Sending Warships Into Black Sea To Be “Ready To Respond” To Ukraine Crisis.
Question: can you find a logical military rationale for either move and, if yes, which one?
Russia deploying Caspian ships is militarily logical because:
*It allows the crew to gain operational experience (never a bad thing)
*Increases the number of options available to the theater commanders (e.g. missile strikes against enemy forces from unexpected directions)
*Visible presence boosts morale of Novorossia (high morale key to winning wars)
US navy sending ships is militarily logical because:
*It allows option to false flag attack Nato members like Romania or Bulgaria, which can justify Nato’s article 5 clause of “attack on one=attack on all.”
*Its ships are more advanced than Romanian, Bulgarian, or Greek ships
*Montreaux Convention allows up to 9 non-Black Sea warships to transit through, thus the USN ships can act as the flag ship of the combined Nato fleet of 9 PLUS whatever the Black Sea Nato members contribute
In times of tensions very often people repeat, as a rote incantations “article 5 NATO”…and so on, “triggering”…
Better read the Treaty.
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/official_texts_17120.htm
There is no obligation to use force. Read carefully.
And the Treaty is generally abused or ignored…see Art 1 and 2…
Dean Acheson’s autobiography contains some illuminating information about the grave difficulties surrounding getting art 5 (which is really “art 1 !) approved… Even the existing watered down art was a tough sell…which is why it actually obliges signatories to do nearly nothing beyond what they want to do… Art 5 is basically empty rhetoric, not meaningful law.
“Ukraine, Taiwan… Two-Prong U.S. Aggression Toward Russia, China”
https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2021/04/10/ukraine-taiwan-two-prong-us-aggression-toward-russia-china/
The above article was published this morning in Strategic Culture Foundation. It connects the dots and ties everything perfectly. The last part perfectly explains why things are the way they are:
“It is therefore logical, if not execrable, that Washington appears to be accelerating on a collision course against Russia and China. The speed and recklessness is correlated with the growing sense that the American Empire is in terminal demise. The Ukraine and Taiwan are providing the U.S. with a two-prong attack against Russia and China and what Washington views as its last chance to grasp on to a world that is disappearing before its eyes. America’s reckless and delusional gambling is placing the world in an extremely dangerous situation. Its rulers and their political flunkies are flicking matches at a powder-keg.
All people of the world should hope that a multipolar world vision prevails and the destructive American ideology fails – definitively.”
The last sentence, I hope so too. Let us not forget that in parallel to Ukraine, there is a crisis developing in Taiwan. let us not lose the sight of the other crisis, over in China. There is a risk that a major can start over Taiwan.
Or is it the Great Reset happening before our eyes? The demise of the USA and the rise of the multipolar world are part of that. In his discussion with Klaus Schwab Putin didn’t seem to be against that process. I am really only guessing here.
I believe US ships are there for electronic warfare and signal intelligence once the war starts. I don’t believe they would stand down that easily. What we saw was perhaps just one of the initial testing of Russian resolve. I don’t expect these ships to engage but they could certainly try jamming Russian weapons and also collect signal intelligence once the war starts for real.
Expect them to become involved in collisions with merchant ships, to be detained at gun point by Russia’s equivalent of the Coast Guard, and made to pay damages before release.
Of course, the merchant ships will drive themselves directly into the USN ships, likely from multiple axes…
In other words…. expect the unexpected….
INDY
Doing a Georgia on Ukraine was my first thought. But then I saw an opportunity for Russia to troll the west and their ‘right to protect’ by imposing a no fly zone over Ukraine and trashing any and all Ukrop military facilities, especially airfields.
So what do you think? Should Russia repeat the 08.08.08 scenario if the Ukronazis attack?
I’m not sure this scenario is the same. The time tables on the ground are certainly favorable to Russia if they would risk direct involvement . For example, if the objective was to make the Dnieper river the demarcation line the left bank could be liberated rather quickly and Ukrainian forces in Donbass would be trapped with their backs to the river. Kherson to Kremenchuk is about 5 hours and Belgorod to Kremenchuk about the same amount of time. Would such an operation waged in defense and with historical reasons be worth a hot WWIII or would the Empire leave the Ukrainian forces out to dry? Ukraine should think carefully on this.
Dear All, Dear Saker,
I read your article and the responses to this. I understood the topic and your question.
I am no military man, I never went to the military, and hard to understand for the Americans friends here, I never in my 53 years fired a gun. I cannot answer this question.
I actually did had some kind of something (no drugs involved), where I had the strong feeling, that in my existence I already killed in some ancient time, which I should not have done, and which I should not repeat. And I will not. I am not afraid of dying.
I wanted to add to this topic the following, because it could be part of an answer, from another perspective.
It is a song, Bob Dylan, and it addresses to those with dark hearts and no soul:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJlN9jdQFSc
God bless You and Best RG
Currahee
Going off-topic. Please could you put this comment in the cafe next time. Mod.